Whose values?

Whose values?

: What scares me most about the aftermath to Tuesday’s election is how people will use the alleged American concern about “moral values” as an issue.

See NBC’s exit poll as I summarized it: “The top issue (21%) was “moral values”; 78% of those who cared about that went for Bush, 19% for Kerry.”

Get past the necessary caveats:

First, the exit polls are proven now to be utterly, laughably discredited.

Second, know that in polls such as this, who the hell is not going to say that “moral values” are important? If you say that taxes are more important than “moral values” then you’ll fear that Jesus is going to come into the polling place smashing the tables of the vote counters.

Third, if they’d asked what “moral values” means, they would have found a nation divided; it’s a vague as air.

But that’s just the problem: Many will ascribe to the words “moral values” a mandate to impose their values on the rest of us — whether that’s abortion, stem-cell research, homosexuality, birth control, free speech, Vietnam, education… you name it.

But as my sister, the Rev. Jarvis, said in an op-ed she sent to the NY Times (they should be smart enough to run it) and read to me last night over the phone, the rest of us have values, too. We go to church, too. As she eloquentlyl concluded in her piece, “Hard as that change is to imagine today, maybe four years from now, when the number one issue cited by voters in exit polls is again ‘moral values,’ those values will have something to do with economic justice, racial equality and the peaceable kingdom for which we all were made.”

We all have moral values. They’re just different. That’s the issue. That’s why we fight over these things. It’s not as if one side has moral values and the other side doesn’t and that’s why we fight. We fight because we all have conviction about what is morally right and different definitions of what that means.

The further problem with this exit-poll question is that the attack squads who went after John Kerry will take it as their Second Amendment for mudslinging: They’ll say that they won the election — and they perhaps did — by attacking the character and “moral values” of Kerry because he publicly opposed the Vietnam War and that the voters counted that as a top issue. And so watch them now loading up their mud pies for a Hillary run. And watch Michael Moore in his own pen making mud pies to aim at the other side. They’ll all be slinging mud under the banner of “moral values.”

And one more issue, as Glenn Reynolds points out, is that big media and the left will latch onto this faux statistic to argue that all the people who voted for Bush are actually religious reactionaries, which is unfair to them and ultimately condescending to the electorate and brushes off all the other real issues that voters considered. It’s also a tactical mistake, for it only makes it seem as if the religious reactionary fringe is much bigger than it actually it; this complaint only thus gives them more clout in media and politics.

But forget all that.

The real problem with all of this is that it perverts the very essence of the Constitution and its intent regarding government.

Our government exists to perform a set of fairly well-prescribed tasks amounting to running the business of government: military defense, making and interpreting laws, maintaining the currency, foreign affairs, you know the list (and you can argue about whether it has been expanded too much or not enough another day in another post). We call the president the “executive” because we expect him (or her) to run the business of the United States.

But our government should not operate in loco priestus. [Sorry for the mangled Latin version of in loco parentus; can anybody with a decent classical education give me the right phrase?]

Our government is not meant to be a church. That is the real intent of separating church and state. It’s not just about keeping state away from interfering with church. It’s about state not becoming church.

The Constitution is about not letting the state interfere unduly and uninvited in our lives — in our bedrooms, our speech, our thoughts, our families, our beliefs.

That is a matter of both principle and also common sense. Even back then, the founding fathers certainly knew that power corrupts and that politicians should not be the people we turn to for moral guidance! They’re politicians. They are on the front line of human corruption — the wrong side of the line.

And the truth is that most of us would agree about most of what I just said. We don’t want government in our homes. We don’t want government restricting our rights. We don’t want government legislating morality.

Yes, some extreme religionists would have government interfere but I believe they are a minority. But they are a powerful minority because as Virginia Postrel points out in today’s Times, it’s possible to mobilize such voters to come to the polls as a matter of moral duty. The religious right organized well, contributed heavily, spoke loudly, and came out to vote. They unquestionably helped make sure that George Bush got elected.

But not everybody who voted for George Bush is therefore a Bible-thumping member of the religious right. Many of them cared first instead about jobs or the economy or small government or terrorism or the war or…..

I know many who voted for George Bush who say that they are “fiscally conservative and socially liberal.” They wouldn’t agree with the religous reactionaries.

I know many who voted for George Bush who are conservative on some issues but not on others.

I know many libertarians who would agree that we don’t want government interfering in our lives.

And I certainly know many liberals who would agree that we don’t want government interfering in our lives or setting the nation’s moral agenda.

And most Americans I know are, in fact, open and tolerant people who want to live and let live and not interfere in or judge their neighbors’ lives. We’re already moral, thank you very much, and we don’t need politicians and their pals telling us what moral means.

It’s time that we stand still and look around and realize that on “moral values” we all have much more in common than media and politicians of certain stripes would paint us to have and we’re not ready for any moral jihads or inquisitions or dark ages. We are the great middle of America.

78 responses to “Whose values?”

  1. catherine Avatar
    catherine

    Exactly – I think it’s a way for the MSM and all of those who hate Bush to rationalize what they can’t digest. So they make up this myth. The first myth was to demonize Bush as some fire breathing dragon of Christianity, and then to believe that those who voted for him are “followers.” It’s condescending and insulting and it shows that the MSM (esp the NYT ed page – its the freaked out liberal page today) does not want to come out of its cocoon.
    What kills me is they have no problem with Kerry hanging and making speeches at black churches.
    I voted for Bush on the war, taxes, and social security. Period.

  2. Dishman Avatar

    I love the paragraph ending with:
    They are on the front line of human corruption — the wrong side of the line.
    That’s one of the best things I’ve heard all year.

  3. Brett Avatar

    Jeff,
    I’m right in step with you. As a conservative/libertarian who staunchly supported Bush, I do NOT want the Republicans reading the election as a justification to give a bigger ear to the morality crowd. I’ll fight hard against them if they do.

  4. sbw Avatar

    Look, William Bennett has had it wrong from the beginning and just doesn’t know it. Trying to teach people to “Be this way” or “Be that way” — honest, loyal, or whatever — is like teaching people that 3, 7, or 5 are good numbers to learn when it is far more useful to teach people the process of arithmetic. Bennett is stuck on oversimplification.
    When people learn why behaving one way is in their long-term best interest, they can decide for themselves the sensible path to take. See: Exploring Character

  5. ed Avatar

    Actually, the final exit polls weren’t far off at all.

  6. John Avatar

    First off, the MSM, which clearly took sides in this campaign, is in no moral position to define the meaning of this election for the rest of us, but they will anyway.
    Heck, all you need to do to figure out why GWB was reelected is listen to those who voted for him.
    The Democrats and the MSM need to turn the mirror on themselves, they alone are responsible for their wide ranging defeats.
    Instead, we have talk of the electorate’s ignorance, homophobia, religious zealotry, jingoism, and best of all, detachment from reality.
    There is no other way to spin this, the Dems had their asses kicked.
    Why?
    As a person who up until this election voted Democratic, but will probably never do so again, it would at least be encouraging to witness an attempt at self reflection on their part. Most of us have no desire to live in a one party country.
    Instead, they have determined that there is nothing at all wrong with the message, it’s just that the campaign should start sooner and the shouting be louder.
    What about governance? Isn’t that the whole point?
    It is apparent that the electorate wants clear and effective governance.
    They will not stand for deliberate obstructionism and a 3 1/2 year election campaign.

  7. paul a'barge Avatar
    paul a’barge

    Jeff,
    “Get past the necessary caveats:
    First, the exit polls are proven now to be utterly, laughably discredited”
    These are not the same exit polls, Jeff. These are authoritative polls collated and analysed after the election.
    That’s not the same thing as polls taken shortly after folks start voting.

  8. Charles Avatar

    I know that George Bush is doing the right thing because God has told me so. He is our savior and he shall keep this nation on the path to riteousness.
    BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  9. Blueprint Avatar

    Probably the most unfortunate aspect of this campaign is that candidates totally erased the meaning of ‘moral values’ and ‘christianity’, and turned it into negative campaigning.
    Jesus taught his followers to love one another, and taught them that the truly great among them were those who served.
    He healed, and \ taught that those who gave up everything they had and followed after him would come into the true riches in his kingdom. I didn’t see a lot of that coming out in ‘christian’ or ‘moral values’ in the right wing.
    He taught that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness would be filled.
    He also taught that whoever was without flaws could cast the first stone.
    I saw a lot of stones being cast, but I’m still looking for the one without flaws.
    And Jesus lived as a single man with 12 other single men, and there’s nothing the matter with that.

  10. TomTomTommy Avatar

    as a dejected kerry voter, i have been reading a lot of moderate/libertarian blogs like Buzzmachine, Instapundit and Hit & Run, looking for some reason to believe that the theocrats have not taken over the country. i really really hope you guys are right about this. i will dutifully support the president (albeit while plotting a democratic victory in 2006) so long as he does not insist on governing from the far right fringes of his party.

  11. Franky Avatar

    So gay marriage had nothing to do with it? Well it sure seemed like a good get out the vote when there were a number of propositions on election day about gay marriage. I seem to remember a lot of Republican election committees wasting valuable time and money printing up anti-gay marriage flyers. They were probably lied to by NYT as well.
    Face it, a bunch of chimps with votes decided that not Iraq, not the economy, but gay marriage was the issue of 2004. I sort of understand gays making this a one-issue election because it’s a central part of their life they feel is being denied – what for the life of me I don’t get is why people would go out and vote on this just to deny SOMEONE else something.
    I saw Instapundit today saying that as a “libertarian” he would keep Bush in check – yeah that boat sort of left already.
    The real subetext of this is that these “liberal hawks” seem to be having some doubts about who they woke up in bed with on Nov. 3.
    You voted for him, and no one’s going to be interested in you trying to recoup some credibility by criticising Bush when he gets in to full swing.

  12. DirtyDingus Avatar

    In loco sacerdotis or if you prefer a plural for priests then in loco sacerdotum

  13. Karl Avatar

    Jeff’s most important point is this:
    The Sullivans and Bennetts are attempting to impose a meaning on the phrase “moral values” for which they have no supporting data.
    If you review the exit polls, you’ll find that people were not given the option of saying something like “character,” which could just as easily be what some respondents meant.
    I would argue that Bush’s approach to the war is in some sense moralistic in a way that Kerry’s was not. Bush conveys that this is an existential struggle of Good versus Evil in a way that Kerry never convincingly did. Bush is promoting liberty as a strategy to defeat terror. Kerry seemed preoccupied with the opinions of countries and organizations (this means you, Kofi) that are demonstrably corrupt.
    Maybe these types of thoughts are what caused people to say “moral values,” at least in part. Maybe not. But my guess is as good as Sullivan’s or Bennett’s.

  14. Kat Avatar

    (And most Americans I know are, in fact, open and tolerant people who want to live and let live and not interfere in or judge their neighbors’ lives. We’re already moral, thank you very much, and we don’t need politicians and their pals telling us what moral means.)
    Well, I dunno–I read this, and I wondered if this guy wasn’t on a moral jihad against America because we were too stupid to vote Kerry. He isn’t the only lefty saying that.
    James Hurricane Wolcott–{I am preparing myself for either outcome today. Should Kerry win, I will post an important statement called “A Time for Healing,” or something equally noble-sounding. Should Bush win, I shall post a statement of philosophical resignation tentatively titled “Good, Go Ahead, America, Choke on Your Own Vomit, You Deserve to Die.}
    Sick bastard!

  15. Andy Freeman Avatar
    Andy Freeman

    > Our government exists to perform a set of fairly well-prescribed tasks amounting to running the business of government: military defense, making and interpreting laws, maintaining the currency, foreign affairs, you know the list (and you can argue about whether it has been expanded too much or not enough another day in another post).
    Okay.
    > The Constitution is about not letting the state interfere unduly and uninvited in our lives — in our bedrooms, our speech, our thoughts, our families, our beliefs.
    Hold it. The quoted sentence above says that we’re not going to discuss whether govt is involved in too many things, then Jarvis engages in that very discussion.
    It’s quite reasonable to argue that govt has gone too far, or a proposal goes too far, but it is not reasonable to start that discussion with the assumption that the things you like are not instances of “go too far”.

  16. erg Avatar

    The exit polls properly adjusted were not crap. So that point is meaningless — 21% with a reasonable MOE is probably correct.
    As far as moral values goes, the question may be a little vague. Nonetheless, I think its safe to say that a large group of people did vote based on the traditional concept of moral and religious values. That is what people understand when the term moral values comes up. Yes, maybe my moral value is to be a vegetarian. maybe for others its a minimum wage etc. But that is not the convention definition of moral values. For the large bulk of people, its moral values.
    We also know that nearly 4 million more Evangelican Christians registered and voted anew this year for Bush. We know that the Republicans built a huge GOTV machine based on churches in Ohio. [ Probably in PA and Michigan as well, but they were outnumbered in those states].
    No, these people are not all or even most reactionaries. They are decent people. But they generally oppose gay marriage strongly, oppose abortion, want more religion in schools (ala Roy Moore, remember how popular he became).
    Of course, not all Republicans are Christian Evangelicals. Some are traditional socially liberal, fiscally conservative suburban types. Some are Rockfeller Republicans. And so on. But what made the difference in this election is this new bloc.
    Demos come in all flavors too. blue collar union types, social liberals, Deaniacs and so on.
    And the gay marriage issue, and the abortion issue definitely mobilized these people. Jeff, you may not like to admit it, but they contributed the margin of victory to Bush. Not your libertarian-style Republicans, not even your security Moms.
    Nor are they necessarily wrong. I’m a social liberal, but I have deep qualms about abortion.
    Look for the next Dem candidate to move quickly on this issue. Gun control killed the democrats in 1994 and 2000, and it was probably less of an issue this time around bceause the Dems tried to defuse it. LIke it or not, Dems will have to come to terms with the abortion and gay issue, maybe move centerward.
    I find the notion of all of this a little depressing. Especially on the gay marriage issue. And BTW, now that the election is over, Republicans who are opposed to this form of bigotry need to step forward and oppose it.
    Meanwhile, the largest democracy in the world, India has a population that is 80% Hindu, but it has a Sikh Prime Minister, a Muslim President and the key power broker is a Catholic woman.

  17. Kev Avatar

    While I agree that most Americans are not Bible-thumping or anything of the sort, the fact remains that the Bush campaign unquestionably pandered to this section of the populace, because they would be attracted to his pro-Christian stances and statements, and he has duly done so throughout his presidency. The fact that he managed to turn that into an impressive lead in the popular vote– possibly helped by the 11 state gay marriage votes– only says to me that the Republican Party, under its current leadership, will only continue to pay attention to the desires of these people.
    You mention a diverse group of people who voted for Bush who are not Bible-thumping members of the religious right, and they all have their own valid reasons, and that’s fine. What do you, and all of these other people, plan to do to stop him from legislating morality? Are you going to write him frantic letters urging him to appoint moderate judges? The fact is that there is no party for fiscally conservative, socially liberal people in America right now. It would be fantastic if there was; I bet it would be incredibly popular. You can’t pick and choose what part of a party you agree with as many do with the Bible. America bought the whole package, and that’s what it will probably get.
    “If elected to another term, I promise that I will nominate Supreme Court Justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade.”
    Does that sound like setting the nation’s moral agenda to you? There may be no jihads or inquisitions or dark ages, but there may be some very moral decisions handed down in the courts.

  18. John Avatar

    Is part of the problem that the left has with President Bush the fact that he believes in something greater than and apart from himself and is unapologetic about it?
    If so, what does this say about his detractors?

  19. Steve Rhodes Avatar

    From the PBS Newshour on Wednesday:
    ANDREW KOHUT (president of the Pew Research Center): Everyone who is reading those exit polls was taken back by that number. Many people said moral values or Iraq or the economy or terrorism in fact more than Iraq. Looking at that, I think, and I think there are probably other pollsters that hold this view, that measure is a little bit misleading.
    Moral values in a list of things that you’re asking people what issues are on their mind, that’s a an ambiguous term; it’s a term that has a social desirability factor from the point of view of conservatives. If you put moral values on a list, it’s hard for many people to say they weren’t thinking of moral values when they were making their decision.
    And, most importantly, we asked open-ended questions throughout the campaign, the moral values questions never rose to the level of the conditions questions, the Iraq, economy or terrorism. I think…
    I’m not trying to understate the importance of moral values in this campaign and the importance of that issue, that cluster of issues to the Bush campaign and to the Republican Party, but I think there was an overstatement of that in the exit polls, and it’s going to become part of the narrative that explains this election and perhaps not quite accurately.

  20. Kat Avatar

    Gay agenda, my ass. Andrew Sullivan thinks he is a hell of a lot more important than he is–no one gives a damn if he boinks a man or not–we just ask not to be told that we must accept that as normal. He is free to do it if he pleases! Bush is not against gay unions–I frankly don’t give a damn–just don’t tell me it’s the norm. BOTH Kerry and Bush were against gay marriage so that argument is just so full of poop. People voted Bush because he would be better at protecting America and not sell out to the UN like Kerry would.
    Some facts:
    “The Disappearing Gender Gap: Senator Kerry posted just a 3% advantage (51%-48%) over President Bush among women, a significant difference from the 11-point margin for Al Gore over Mr. Bush in 2000.
    Security Moms (married women with children who cite the war in Iraq or terrorism as the most important issue in deciding their vote) supported the President over Kerry by 18 points (59%- 41%, respectively).
    Single women between the ages of 18-34 (aka

  21. Fisk Avatar


    Is part of the problem that the left has with President Bush the fact that he believes in something greater than and apart from himself and is unapologetic about it?

    I don’t consider myself leftist (I voted for Badarnik this time), and yes it is part of my problem. I disapprove of the notion that we have a President who believes and makes his policy decisions based on “something greater than himself”. Personal faith is someone’s personal choice, but I do not want someone making decisions based on that.

    If so, what does this say about his detractors?

    That they have enough confidence in their own abilities, and those of their fellow humans to make their decisions themselves ? That they believe our destiny is in our own hands ?

  22. erg Avatar

    Look, it is practically inarguable that around 4 new million Christian Evangelicals came out to vote for Bush this time around. I’m sure there were several factors that influenced their vote, but religious reasons were definitely a major factor. Everything we’ve seen in the exit polls indicates that. We know the Bush campaign spent years building a highly sophisticated GOTV machine in Ohio and FL.
    Now, sure there were other factors involved. [ Incidentally, people who cited Iraq as a major reason for their vote, voted for Kerry overwhelmingly, while for terrorism, it was the other way around]. But abortion and Gay rights were major factors.
    And please spare me the notion that Kerry and Bush had the same position on Gay marriage. No one bought that line. Why would Bush propose the Gay Marriage amendment if he did not intend that to be an issue ? It faded quickly from the national scene, but local churches spoke out and local initiatives were placed on the ballot. That was an important factor in GOTV.
    CEntrist Republicans dont’ like to acknowledge that a measure like this helped Bush, just as centrist Democrats don’t like to acknoweldge fringe groups that vote dem, but its true.
    The election ultimately boiled down to Ohio. Ultimately, I think after the provisionsl are counted, its around 100K vote difference. Of course, the big Christian mobilization lead to additional new voters that overwhemlmed the Dem’s new registration. So that was crucial to GWB winning the election, and was a masterful stratefy.
    Those groups haven’t gone away too, look for the Dem candidates to move centerward on this issue next time (unless the country is seriously upset with Republicans).

  23. freddie Avatar

    I will at this juncture take no position but simply want to point out that after India, America is considered the most religious nation on earth–that is, polling citizens who claim to go to, support, believe in a church; further, to believe in god, in the story of the bible as literal etc etc–Thus, for better or worse, religion has had a major impact on our society and Europe, increasingly drifting away from such things also increasingly finds it more and more difficult to understand our passion and concerns for such things as that which is here called moral values.

  24. Ivan Lenin Avatar

    I agree that politicians should be the last ones to tell us what moral is. Instead, we can tell them what morals to enforce. That’s what I think happened on Nov.2.
    We don’t want government legislating morality.
    Yes we do. We want government to punish theft and murder. Not because that’s convinient to the majority, but because we feel it’s WRONG to kill and steal.
    Moral relativism has nothing to do with reality (unless it’s the reality in which Chomsky and Michael Moore live), but moral relativism is what we are taught in schools. We are taught that any behavior, since it depends on your culture, etc., can be explained and justified. Nothing is wrong, since our values are just different.
    we’re not ready for any moral jihads or inquisitions or dark ages
    That’s what I see happening. When people call me a fascist and spit at me for supporting Bush – that’s because they believe I’m evil. So, they fight some sort of moral war. This war is encouraged by Academia, MSM, and Hollywood, these mega-churches of post-modenity. Which I wouldn’t mind, if only these churches accepted the kind of responsibility that a church is expected to have.

  25. . Avatar

    >after India, America is considered the most
    >religious nation on earth…
    >Posted by freddie
    India doesn’t count…they are heathens because they don’t worship the same God as the “people of the book.” So how dare you say they are religious. That means We are number 1…woohoo we are number 1…Hell the french don’t even believe cow worshiping indians are a religion…just a philosophy.

  26. Forpulte Hestkuk Avatar

    Is religion chiefly to blame for Kerry’s loss? Having witnessed irrational faith in the transformative potential of Dean, Michael Moore and Eminem, um, yeah, sure… :D
    http://hestkuk.blogspot.com/

  27. erg Avatar

    I am very dubious of the notion that the US is more religious than Mexico, Italy or Indonesia.
    FWIW, India is around 80% Hindu, 12% muslim, 3% Christian, 2 % Sikh, and a whole host of other religions.
    And incidentally, India has a Sikh Prime Minister, a Muslim President and the main power broker is a Catholic woman. Abortion is legal. Religious minorities follow their own personal civil laws (which means that Muslims can keep 4 wives). Anyone who suggested teaching creationist theory in a science class would be laughed out of school.

  28. Eileen Avatar

    59 million Americans voted for Bush. Who is so omniscient as to tell us exactly WHAT their moral values consist of or even how they define the term?
    I object to broad brush generalizations of all kinds, whether it be by pundits, pollsters, MSM or anyone else. I object to my OWN generalizations when I catch myself going there! Further, to state an opinion as ‘fact’ based upon your chosen set of deductions or generalizations just ‘don’t necessarily make it so’.
    For example, to state as FACT that abortion and gay rights were a ‘major factor’ in determining how 4 million new ‘Christian Evangelicals’ voted is something I view as erg’s opinion. For that matter, how do you define an evangelical to begin with? If you look up the term you’ll find five different, albeit associated, definitions. In the range of those definitions, which of them (to erg) define people who are anti-gay and/or anti-abortion?
    To state as FACT that “after India, America is considered the most religious nation on earth–” is based upon what data, freddie? Tell that to the Buddhists and Taoists in China, those who follow Shintoism in Japan, and those who follow other major religions across the world.
    As I type this, CBS evening news just stated as ‘fact’ that ‘religious conservatives’ are responsible for reelecting Bush, and continued with more ‘facts’ about how they will hold him to their anti-abortion agenda vis a vis Supreme Court appointments and blah blah blah.
    In my OPINION, only two days after the election it’s already abundantly clear how the left (gross over-generalization duly noted and personally objected to) will respond to the ‘challenges’ occasioned by their election losses. They’ve only just begun to sharpen up the ‘ole paintbrushes. And the more Bush supporters are so (mis)characterized and defined, the more it will facilitate Bin Laden’s extant claim that Christian and Jewish infidel “Crusaders” – now read red state religious conservative residents – are those actually responsible for/justify jihad.
    Ducky. I’m sure MM will do another film along those lines to help ‘the cause’……

  29. Ruth Avatar

    It’s really funny to note that the ‘religious’ right stays so far away from the teachings they are supposed to espouse, which if they are reviewed refute bigotry, lies, malice, racism, economic abuse, so many of the characteristics of the right wing.
    Of course, if you mention that ‘thou shalt not kill’ doesn’t condone war, that kind of undermines the whole ‘moral values’ aspect.

  30. Kat Avatar

    Yes, Ruth, we should be more like the righteous left in these pics. So much more mature. Just smoking pot and pickin’ daisies and havin’ a love in.
    http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_november_3_2004/

  31. erg Avatar


    For example, to state as FACT that abortion and gay rights were a ‘major factor’ in determining how 4 million new ‘Christian Evangelicals’ voted is something I view as erg’s opinion

    First, the only thing I stated as FACT was that 4 million or so new Evangelicals voted this time. This is something the Republican party itself has talked about. Karl RQove mentioned it earlier.
    We also know for a fact that the Republican party built a highly effective GOTV effort based on conservative churches in OH, FL etc. This was extensively reported before.
    We also know that the Bush Administration asked for an amendment barring Gay marriage. Think about it for a momemnt — at a time when we had major wars going on, the only thing that Bush considered important enough to ask for a constitutional amendment (something that for the most part has only been required for monumental issues) was gay marriage.
    We also know for a fact that the Republicans placed anti gay-marriage issues on the ballots in several states.
    So what’re you telling me ? This was all coincidience that hese ballot measures emerged ? That the new turnout bore no relation at all to these 2 very major issues (gay marriage and abortion) ? Of course, it was not the only issue. But it was certainly a major factor. Note that states with a generally progressive political culture (WI, MN) went for Kerry by around the same margins as for Gore.

    In my OPINION, only two days after the election it’s already abundantly clear how the left (gross over-generalization duly noted and personally objected to) will respond to the ‘challenges’ occasioned by their election losses.

    In fact, this is the perfect way to respond to challenges.
    . There is absolutely nothing wrong with Christan Evangelicals voting. I think the Democratic Party definitly needs to change and look at the concerns of people over abortion instead of toeing the NARAL line. My personal opinions on gay marriage aside, this is clearly an issue that resonates with the base. Again, the Democrats need to strike some sort of conciliatory middle ground.
    What I find interesting is that we have people claiming that these religious issues did not play a major role in driving out these new voters to the polls. …

  32. Kat Avatar

    I think Bush brought in the amendment thing to stop leftist judges from imposing gay marriage on an unwilling public. Bush did not suggest barring civil unions, but religious ones. I agree because I don’t want the sacrament of marriage to be used as a joke at a gay pride parade. I don’t want some judge telling my church that we have to allow gay marriage–in short, I don’t want gays forcing their version of ‘religion’ down my throat. I only ask they respect my right to believe in the word of the Bible, and I will respect their right to believe what they want. Don’t shove the gay agenda down my throat–it makes me gag. Don’t call me a bigot for believing gay marriage is a wrong. I’m sick of heterophobes telling me how I must think. And I’d not vote Bush over Kerry on the gay issue–too insignificant in the big scheme of things. These drama queens making this a gay vote thing are way out in left field.

  33. Eileen Avatar

    Erg,
    I said: “…to state as FACT that abortion and gay rights were a ‘major factor’ in determining how…” I emphasized ‘major factor’ on purpose to focus on only that part of your claim. Whether there were actually 4 million new voters, or 4 million evangelicals was not my point of emphasis. It was your OPINION and statements of conclusion about WHY they voted for Bush.
    Now I quote you: “I’m sure there were several factors that influenced their vote, but religious reasons were definitely a major factor. Everything we’ve seen in the exit polls indicates that. We know the Bush campaign spent years building a highly sophisticated GOTV machine in Ohio and FL.
    Now, sure there were other factors involved. [ Incidentally, people who cited Iraq as a major reason for their vote, voted for Kerry overwhelmingly, while for terrorism, it was the other way around]. But abortion and Gay rights were major factors.”
    You said “religious reasons were DEFINITELY a major factor (emphasis added)”, and at the end of the next paragraph you also said (after other qualifiers), “But abortion and Gay rights were major factors.” What FACTS do you base these definite conclusions on? What polling data? The only polls I’ve read about haven’t specifically included ‘religious issues’ at all. And the only one which did reference gay rights at all rated it around 7% in terms of issues of importance to voters. That referred to ALL voters, not just those voting for Bush. Is that, then, a ‘major factor’ in anyone’s book as to what influenced people to vote for Bush?
    Although you included other reasons people may have voted as they did, you were also absolute in your religious/gay issue ‘conclusions/statements of opinion as fact’. As I noted, “… to state an opinion as ‘fact’ based upon your chosen set of deductions or generalizations just ‘don’t necessarily make it so’.”
    I completely respect your intellectual analysis, your deductions and conclusions, erg. I am just pointing out that we (all of us – including me) need to be careful about what we set forth to be FACT.

  34. Eileen Avatar

    P.S. erg,
    I’m not here to challenge you in particular – or anyone else for that matter – as I was making my above point (which included my OWN frailties in this regard). But I must ask you, upon what FACTS do you base this additional claim?:
    “We also know for a fact that the Republicans placed anti gay-marriage issues on the ballots in several states.” According to whom? As they say in the law, please cite your authority(ies).
    Thanks. Hoping we’ll meet on the same page soon.

  35. Kat Avatar

    Some interesting stats:Total vote for banning gay marriage in those 11 states: 14,203,791. Total vote for Bush in those 11 states: 12,104,750. The vote against gay marriage is 17.3% higher.

  36. Jim S Avatar

    “And the truth is that most of us would agree about most of what I just said. We don’t want government in our homes. We don’t want government restricting our rights. We don’t want government legislating morality.” Well, you got two out of three. What you fail to understand is that lots of Americans don’t want government in their homes, but they don’t mind it in other people’s homes if they are doing something they disapprove of, like being gay or…fill in your “favorite” sin. Lots of Americans don’t want government restricting their rights but are just fine with it restricting others. One of the most fascinating things I see in the religious right is that if you say that others have the right to live their lives unrestricted by the fundamentalist’s version of morality they view it as a restriction of their rights.
    I consider the Ten Commandments brouhahas a good example. They know that they are good people and that Christianity means treating everyone fairly and decently. They aren’t aware at all of the historical precedents that make non-Christians doubt that or just tend to dismiss it as irrelevant to the here and now and therefore cannot begin to comprehend why anyone would think that a public display of the Ten Commandments in a government courthouse would make some people doubt that they’ll get a fair shake in there.
    You just plain miss on the last one LOTS of Americans, including the overwhelming majority of the ones who said morals was their number one concern when voting think that the government should legislate morality.

  37. Greg D Avatar

    “We don’t want government in our homes. We don’t want government restricting our rights. We don’t want government legislating morality.”
    Oh? So you want to get rid of welfare programs, do you? After all, that’s “legislating morality”. You’re forcing people to take care of the poor, whether they want to or not. And, you’re bring government into the homes of all those welfare recipients.
    And I’ve just heard so much about how people hate that the bigoted government won’t let adults marry two other adults at the same time. (Speaking only for myself, I know more people who are polyamorous than I know who are gay.)
    And then there are those laws against prostitution. How horrible, telling women what they can and can’t do with their own bodies! And let’s not forget suicide. How can we possibly claim that the government respects our right to control our own bodies when they won’t let us go to the pharmacy, and buy a collection of drugs to kill ourselves easily? Damn morality pushers!
    Which is to say, you need to get a grip, because you’re babbling complete garbage here.
    The anti-gay marriage proposition won 57 – 43 in Oregon, the state where the pro-gay marriage people focused almost all their efforts, because they thought they might win there. It’s won by more than that everywhere else. Furthermore, there is not a single state in the Union where pro-gay marriage people have even tried to get gay marriage put on the ballot. Why? Because they expect they would lose any place they did it.
    So if you pro gay marriage extremists wish to call everyone who disagrees with you a “bigot”, go right ahead. After all, although I don’t really care about the issue, I do enjoy watching you people repeatedly shoot yourselves in your feet.
    Oh, BTW, I’m not a Christian. And I “cannot begin to comprehend why anyone would think that a public display of the Ten Commandments in a government courthouse would make some people doubt that they’ll get a fair shake in there.” In fact, my impression of someone who claims to believe that is they need to rejoin the real world.

  38. Eileen Avatar

    Ruth,
    In a backhanded way, immediately following my post you quickly labelled me as being of the ‘religious right’ (obviously a negative moniker in your world). If not me, to what or whom else were you referring? Happy to sit corrected. Tell me please.
    First of all, I’m a Libertarian. Second of all, I am very spiritual, but not the least bit religious. That is to say, whatever floats your boat vis a vis your feelings regarding the divine is fine by me – as long as it doesn’t include harm to others as you espouse yours views, ala Islamofascism. Does that still make me part of the ‘religious right’ to you? Please define that term for me.
    You said: “It’s really funny to note that the ‘religious’ right stays so far away from the teachings they are supposed to espouse, which if they are reviewed refute bigotry, lies, malice, racism, economic abuse, so many of the characteristics of the right wing.
    Is the religious right really pro all of the above awful things you’ve listed, Ruth? Upon what do you base these conclusions? Are you really sure, Ruth? Are all those of the ‘religous right’ really so evil? And do you, on the other hand, represent the personification of goodness and light?

  39. doug Avatar

    I would substitute quality of life for moral values in the polls. Americans who live in flyover country have made a decision to place lifestyle choices over financial sucess. They are intelligent people who value the benefits of living in less densely populated areas. I don’t see Alaskans voting Democrat. They don’t use government services to the same degree that people in LA and NYC do. They voted their point of view.

  40. HA Avatar

    My Democratic friends are flailing around looking for an ideology. Might I suggest that they take a look at small “l” libertarianism? Wait, don’t choke on your coffee, it isn’t that big a stretch.
    Democrats and small “l” libertarians share many values. They differ significantly on how to realize these values. Democrats think big government programs are the ticket. Libertarians think individual liberty and voluntary associations are the ticket.
    Now step back a moment and think about the zillions that Democrats spent trying to convince America that the Republicans are queer-burning, oil-soaked, theocratic fascists and that Bush is Hitler. Was that money well spent? Obviously not.
    Wouldn’t the Democrats be better off if they used the bully pulpit to persuade Americans that voluntary associations were the most effective way to solve social problems? And instead of using the zillions in donations to tear down the Republicans, couldn’t they instead use that money to endow voluntary associations?
    Couldn’t Habitat for Humanity have used the zillions much more effectively than MoveOn?
    Libertarianism is the way, my dear disheartened Democratic friends.

  41. Mithras Avatar

    Well, Jarvis, while you were busy damning Kerry with faint praise the past several months, some of us were waving our arms in the air and saying, “Hey, look at the people he’s running against!” And now you wake up and say they should “not interfere in or judge their neighbors’ lives”.
    Well, too late, pal. They didn’t like the Lawrence v. Texas decision, and they didn’t like the Roe v. Wade decision, and they didn’t like the Griswold v. Connecticut decision. They don’t like the idea of a right of privacy to make personal decisions free of government regulation. What they like is the early-20th century conception of the police power – the power of local and state governments to regulate for the purpose of public health, safety and morality, as they define those things.
    Now they get to appoint a couple (or more) Supreme Court justices. They get a lot more federal judicial appointments. They can write the laws, and interpret them, and enforce them, unilaterally for the next 4 years. Bush said yesterday he had accumulated a lot of political capital, and now he intended to spend it. And you helped him. You thought Kerry too mushy; well, now you got clarity, boy. Hope you like it.

  42. jakob Avatar

    Maybe the exit polls were correct and the vote counts were wrong, like in Florida in 2000. Just a thought.

  43. Kat Avatar

    Sure, Jakob, and I just saw a flying pig go past my window with ‘Go Kerry’ emblazoned on its underbelly. Bush won in 2000 and just to please you he added the exclamation point in 2004.

  44. jakob Avatar

    I just think it’s a question that should be asked. After all, journalists are supposed to challenge assumptions, not make them.
    The exit polls were ridiculed four years ago in Florida, and my belief is that a majority of voters left the polls thinking that they HAD voted for Gore.
    Believe me, if Kerry had emerged as the winner, the Republicans would be screaming “fraud.” The most disappoined people in Ohio must be the army of GOP lawyers who were lying in wait.

  45. Dishman Avatar

    Mithras.. some on the right very much liked Lawrence v. Texas, among them Eugene Volokh. The outcome was what many of us thought it should be, but that wasn’t the big thing. The big thing was that it was decided on a presumption of liberty, rather than privacy.
    Privacy means “don’t ask, don’t tell”, which I don’t count as a solid basis for liberty. In the era of cell-cams, privacy is taking a big hit… from millions of individual citizens.
    Liberty seems to be a much more solid place to hold the line against government.

  46. Mithras Avatar

    Privacy means “don’t ask, don’t tell”, which I don’t count as a solid basis for liberty.
    Privacy rights means there are a set of personal actions and decisions over which the government should have no say because they are fundamental to what it means to be human. If that’s not “liberty”, then what is?
    And here’s more on the people you’ve elected (I assume you’re a Bush supporter): Texas Board of Education member calls on textbook makers to define marriage as one man and one women. The right politicizes education while falsely accusing the left of exactly the same thing.

  47. John Avatar

    Mithras,
    You state: “Well, too late, pal. They didn’t like the Lawrence v. Texas decision, and they didn’t like the Roe v. Wade decision, and they didn’t like the Griswold v. Connecticut decision”.
    Don’t you realize that it is far less participatory to have these fundamental issues decided in the courts than at the polls.
    It is natural, in a culture where immediate gratification is the norm, to seek faster ways to gain that which we desire, or that which we feel is right or just.
    Our system provides for a way to achieve these goals. When there is consensus, there is victory at the ballot box. Likewise, the ballot box is the closest measure of consensus we have.
    It is ironic to hear cries of “police state” from those who will readily cede our right to vote on issues to unelected judges who maintain law enforcement resources with which to enforce the decisions they will make for us.

  48. Ruth Avatar

    Gosh, Eileen, sorry I posted next to you and you thought I meant you, usually when that happens it usually means that two people were posting at once. If you find the description fits you, be my guest and ascribe it to yourself! Or as probably both of us heard from our mothers, if the shoe fits, wear it.
    Malice:
    “Yes, the Republicans should become democrats and then you will want part of their policies. Bwahaha. The majority disagree with you. Quit whining. It is Democrats like you who won for Bush–thanks from we small minded people who think unlike you. Go find a pacifier.” (a la Kat)
    Bigotry:
    11 states voting against the right of gays to establish the same marriages that any number of golddiggers have wormed themselves into at the expense of any number of existing families, and any number of abusive partners have imposed on any number of victims.
    Racism:
    Try this election in Alabama, where an amendment to withdraw segregationist statutes from the state constitution was defeated.
    Lies:
    Literature that the Democratic party was trying to ban the Bible. Swift Boat-ers. Bush’s National Guard records had all been released, versions 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
    Economic abuse:
    Recent studies that show people with ‘white’ names are called for interviews with prospective employers at a much larger rate than people with ‘black’ sounding names (i.e., Bill rather than Kwambe.)
    But you don’t need all those illustrations. We have all seen the right wing demonstrators parading down the streets with pictures of bloody embryos and signs demeaning gays.
    Being all sweetness and light is rather exagerrated as the competing standard. A decent human being would contrast really sharply.

  49. Richard Aubrey Avatar
    Richard Aubrey

    I question the use of “moral” in the public debate. Rev. Jarvis refers to economic justice, which, among the leadership of the liberal protestant churches is sometimes used to mean the end of capitalism. But you can’t oppose it because it’s “justice” and it’s “moral”. Not to mention you won’t even know what’s happening until it’s too late because you accept “justice” without asking what they really mean.
    Beware of clergy talking about “justice”.
    “Racism” is a decreasingly weighty club with which to condemn anybody whose ideas we don’t like. “Environment” means we have to figure out a way to ignore unemployed lumberjacks.
    When things go wrong as a matter of evil, of the human heart and soul, liberal clergy don’t have the guts, not to mention the inclination or training to go there. When somebody says, “Preacher, isn’t this your business here?”, they flee to working on social justice and root causes.

  50. Thomas Nephew Avatar

    I didn’t see how exit polls have been “utterly, laughably discredited” so I followed your link to your earlier comment — which, as far as that went, simply consisted of asserting that they’re utterly, laughably discredited.
    Relying on early exit polls for a sense of the final outcome is discredited — if anyone ever believed that in the first place. But relying on overall exit polls for a sense of what motivated voters is not.

  51. Mithras Avatar

    John-
    It is natural, in a culture where immediate gratification is the norm, to seek faster ways to gain that which we desire, or that which we feel is right or just.
    The principle of equal protection for all citizens is a very important value in our Constitution. That principle needs to be enforced by all government actors, but when the executive and legislative branches bend to the popular will to punish or otherwise deprive a despised minority of their rights, in violation of that principle, then it is the courts’ role to uphold it. Despite being unpopular. This is not simply a legislative preference being enforced through “judicial activism”; Roemer v. Evans (which held that a state constitutional ban on pro-gay rights legislation was irrational prejudice) and Lawrence are vindications of the rights that we all enjoy.

  52. John Avatar

    Mithras,
    Who are the injured parties?
    In what ways have their basic rights been diminished in comparison to others?

  53. Harry in Atlanta Avatar
    Harry in Atlanta

    What really surprises me so far is that one of these prominent lefties hasn’t come out and actually said that they believe Christians and/or evangelicals shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Some things that I have read have come damned close.
    And if you think Ashcroft’s beliefs are dangerous (I will not be sorry to see him and Powell both go) just think about what the angry left is saying about middle America. The use of the religious values straw man is not only a deviation from reality of their own failures it is downright dangerous. Remember both Joseph Stalin and Hitler used similar agruments against certain parts of their citzenry to justify removing a large portion of the population that did not agree with them or outright opposed them.
    I am fearful that the angry left in this nation is no longer operating lucidly and really needs an honest gut check, if that is possible, and then grab the next taxi back to the planet Earth.

  54. George Avatar

    Kat –
    All this talk about things in your throat making you gag… you’re turning me on.

  55. Kat Avatar

    George–I have a headache–go talk to Wonkette.

  56. Kat Avatar

    Even Daily Kosites admit the gay thing is a lie. Straight from the horse’s mouth:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/163731/178
    {Marching order #1, therefore, is this: No matter whom you talk to outside our circles, begin to perpetuate the (false, exaggerated) notion that George Bush’s victory was built not merely on values issues, but gay marriage specifically. If you feel a need to broaden it slightly, try depicting the GOP as a majority party synonymous with gay-haters, warmongers and country-clubbers. Because I, for one, am tired of hearing whiny complaints from conservatives that, not only do I not have values, but that I fail to properly respect the values of people who are all too happy to buy into, no less perpetuate, inaccurate caricatures of the 54+ million Americans who voted Tuesday for John Kerry.
    Criticizing the GOP ain’t gonna build us a new national majority. But the process is brick by brick, or perhaps, brickbat by brickbat}

  57. Mithras Avatar

    John-
    Who are the injured parties?
    Gay and lesbian people who live in the United States.
    In what ways have their basic rights been diminished in comparison to others?
    Gay and lesbian people cannot enter into civil marriage (and, in Ohio and a few other jurisdictions, civil unions) with each other, a privilege granted to opposite-sex couples. In a small number of states, even such things as medical powers attorney, living wills, and insurance beneficiary designations are now on shaky ground, unlike straight couples.
    Why do I have to spell this out to you? Can you not read a newspaper?

  58. Kat Avatar

    {In a small number of states, even such things as medical powers attorney, living wills, and insurance beneficiary designations are now on shaky ground, unlike straight couples.}
    Horse pucky. Pure unadulterated garbage–no one can tell me or a gay what he/she can put in a will. One can choose anyone as a beneficiary and a living will can give power of attorney to anyone you please. Don’t feed me this garbage. Quit being a drama queen.

  59. Andy Freeman Avatar
    Andy Freeman

    > Literature that the Democratic party was trying to ban the Bible.
    Dems and affiliates are happy to use the word “ban” when they don’t get public funding for books they like, so it’s quite reasonable for Repubs to refer to Dem efforts to take the Bible out of the public sphere as banning.
    In fact, the Repub position is actually more reasonable, as the Dems are fighting against measures that don’t involve any public funding.

  60. HA Avatar

    The value system of the Democrats, academia, the MSM and Hollywood are organized around the principles of Gramsician Marxism:
    http://www.policyreview.org/dec00/Fonte.html
    This is the root cause of the cultural/political divide in this country.

  61. Jon Lester Avatar

    I think it’s really to give everyone something very broad and vague to talk about in the news vacuum following the election, especially for those who thought they’d have a transition to report on.

  62. Mithras Avatar

    Horse pucky. Pure unadulterated garbage–no one can tell me or a gay what he/she can put in a will.
    http://www.virginiaisforhaters.org/
    Inheritance is purely a creature of state law, like other areas of family like, like marriage. They sure as hell can tell you who you can devise property to, just like they can tell you who you can marry. Get it NOW?

  63. John Avatar

    Mithras,
    No, I don’t read many newspapers. After this last election cycle, the credibility of the news media should no doubt be in question. I don’t need to be told what to think.
    I have in the past considered myself gay tolerant.
    In the recent past I chose to reside in an eclectic urban neighborhood which includes a large gay population.
    During this period of 5 plus years I heard many comments and snide remarks from suburban dwellers regarding the nature of my neighborhood which had no basis in reality.
    I’m certain there were many more which I didn’t hear.
    Although I am straight, as far as the rest of the world knew, I could have been gay, or somewhere in between.
    During that time I never felt oppressed, by either straights or gays, or the system; just a little sad at some of the ignorance I saw.
    Addressing civil issues such as visitation, insurance benefits, etc, can be accomplished without, by law, making gays a protected species.
    I believe the recent political push to mainstream gay marriage will ultimately thwart legitimate efforts to find and eliminate instances of actual inequity.

  64. Mithras Avatar

    John-
    Less than 50 years ago, it was still illegal in some places for a black person and a white person to get married. Not because it was just a policy preference, and not to make blacks a protected species, but because the law was an irrational denial of equal protection of the laws.
    Denying gay people equal rights with straights is just as morally wrong as the antimiscegenation laws were. Also, I believe, they are just as legally wrong under our constitution. Conservatives, who say they believe in liberty, sure are selective about who they think it applies to.

  65. Kat Avatar

    http://www.virginiaisforhaters.org/
    That’s like giving credence to the KKK or Noam Chomsky or Michael Moore or the democratic underground….I don’t judge all democrats by the words of a few moonbats. I could just as easily rename their site–democratsareforhatersofamerica.com
    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200411%5CNAT20041105a.html
    No one hates gays–I just refuse to allow them to rewrite the Bible into a gay version. I want them to respect my right to believe that the sacrament of marriage is exclusive to one man and one woman. What they do outside of religious vows, is none of my business.
    If the precepts of the “gay-rights” movement are true, the Torah and New Testament are wrong, Christianity has been wrong since the time of St. Paul, Aquinas and Augustine , and the moral edifice by which men in the West have lived for 2,000 years was built on bigotry, prejudice and lies. According to the gay agenda it was. Is this what the new version of your gay Bible is attempting to shove down my throat. No one is blind to their agenda. They want to destroy traditional and religious values and replace them with homosexual deviant values. The ONE thing that would constitute total victory for homosexual values over traditional religious values is the religious sacrament of marriage.
    Once they brainwash and browbeat a majority of Americans to the idea that homosexual relations are as natural, normal and moral as those between a man and his wife, you will have given credibility to something abnormal . I am willing to respect their lifestyle but I am not willing to allow them to destroy my religious beliefs to promote their ideology. Maybe if they want respect, it is time they respected others, instead of pushing their selfish agenda in my face. I respect homosexuals but I do not tolerate their telling me my beliefs are wrong.
    How soon before you advocate legal action against churches that won’t perform these unions?
    Leftist Judges have made it clear that they wants to redefine marriage.
    One of the proposed changes is to split the religious and civil components of marriage apart, leaving the churches to marry couples and having the government register any voluntary relationship, heterosexual or homosexual, for the purposes of benefits and legal obligations. On the surface such a change may seem to accommodate the need for autonomy on the part of the churches. However, the change may be untenable for orthodox institutions such as the Catholic Church. There is a possibility with such changes that churches will eventually be forced to marry homosexuals or face severe penalties under anti-discrimination laws. If the Left succeed, church law will be worth nothing and churches will need to kow tow to the gay agenda. Is that fair? Are you changing my beliefs to suit yours?

  66. John Avatar

    Mithras,
    I am in favor of liberty for all, within the context of civil law, and the Constitution.
    I just believe that attempting to fundamentally reorient an institution which is traditional in all cultures since the beginning of recorded history is to say the least, overly ambitious.
    To attempt to do so by fiat in the courts only invites a backlash.

  67. Mithras Avatar

    Kat-
    You say it’s “horse pucky”; I show you the law of the Commonwealth of Virginia making it illegal for homosexuals to form such contracts. You ignore that and switch gears and start talking about people changing your religion. Relax, no one cares about your religion. Practice whatever you want. No one has proposed making churches perform marriage services they don’t want to. Just don’t tell me that the secular laws of the United States have to conform to your theology in order for you to have “religious freedom.”
    There is nothing at all wrong with gay and lesbian people. They are just as good as straights. The only difference is they happen to fall in love with and be attracted to people of the same sex. Discriminating against them is just irrational prejudice.
    John-
    I just believe that attempting to fundamentally reorient an institution which is traditional in all cultures since the beginning of recorded history is to say the least, overly ambitious.
    We Americans are ambitious. “Reorienting institutions” is what we do. Before we came along, monarchy was the rule and the people didn’t have much of a voice in their government. We changed that pretty quick because we decided it was wrong. Is discriminating against gay people wrong or right? That’s the only question.

  68. Kat Avatar

    Well, then why is the big push for religious marriage to be recognized and not secular unions? Discriminating against religious people is just irrational prejudice.

  69. Mithras Avatar

    Kat-
    why is the big push for religious marriage to be recognized and not secular unions?
    Religious marriage? We’re talking about civil marriage. No one is talking about making religions change. Churches can marry or not marry whomever they like. Civil marriage is a licensing process administered by the government (no clergy is required.) You can have whatever rules you want for religious marriage. But government should not discriminate against gay people. Period.
    Anyway, if it’s about marriage (civil or otherwise), why did conservatives make civil unions illegal in 8 states? Why did Virginia make even private arrangements for partner-like benefits illegal?
    Two words: Irrational prejudice.

  70. John Avatar

    Actually, on the issue of gay marriage, the voters of 11 states have spoken, and polling nationwide suggests that results would be the same in the remaining states.
    I suggest that the middle ground lies in establishing equity now, without turning our culture on it’s head.
    By our, I mean the 85-95% of the population who are not gay.
    You don’t realize how ridiculously timed this latest initiative appeared to be, vis a vis the global war on terror.
    It’s as if the gay community’s contribution to national security was that they would now start marrying.
    Or as I sometimes imagined, said, “ok you guys got your damned war, now we’re getting married”

  71. Kat Avatar

    {A civil union, partnership contract or other arrangement between persons of the same sex purporting to bestow the privileges or obligations of marriage is prohibited.} They mean marriage and it is dishonest to pretend otherwise. But what can you expect from a site with such a radical name? Even non gays can have people of the same sex named as beneficiaries. Hell, some people name their pets. Nothing can stop two gays putting both names on a deed to a house. No law can prevent my naming someone of the same sex as me as a beneficiary or giving her power of attorney. And I’d never live with her or marry her.

  72. Kat Avatar

    No, Mithras–even Andrew Sullivan has stated that civil unions aren’t enough–nothing short of marriage–which is a religious sacrament.
    Why not gay unions? You ask for too much and sometimes you get nothing. I was ambivalent until they started demanding religious rites of marriage and demanding a redefinition of marriage and demanding that certain passages of the Bible be stricken as they spoke against gay marriage. At the point, I said, who the hell do they think they are?

  73. Mithras Avatar

    In 50 years, we’ll look back on this the same way we now look back on the people who quoted the bible 50 years ago to justify laws against mixed-race marriages. Bigots have always lost in the United States, eventually. We go in fits and starts, and sometimes backwards, but we end up making people freer eventually. Hatemongers won a round, that’s all. They’ll lose the match.

  74. Mithras Avatar

    In 50 years, we’ll look back on this the same way we now look back on the people who quoted the bible 50 years ago to justify laws against mixed-race marriages. Bigots have always lost in the United States, eventually. We go in fits and starts, and sometimes backwards, but we end up making people freer eventually. Hatemongers won a round, that’s all. They’ll lose the match.

  75. Kat Avatar

    I don’t know where in the Bible it speaks against people of different color marrying each other. Christianity is also against slavery of Blacks or anyone else. Don’t attribute man’s ideology to the Bible. Comparing gay marriage to equality of Blacks is just so much garbage–if I had been a Black slave, I’d be offended.

  76. Ruth Avatar

    Jesus was a member of the Essenes, then broke off to form his own group. He lived in non-property relationships with 12 other men (Apostles). Jesus did not speak out for or against marriage, of any sort.

  77. dick Avatar

    Jeff,
    I can agree with your basic statement. However, how can we keep the DU crowd and the VRWC from misinterpreting the basis of the term “moral values.” I have read some of the articles in the British newspapers and the French newspapers and the liberal newspapers here and the consensus of them is that “moral values” = right wing, fascist, religious, maniacal televangelists are going to descend on the country with Bush leading them. This has started before Kerry even conceded. It is kind of a wink wink situation where we all know what the moral values means, don’t we, boys and girls, jackboots at dawn, concentration camps, bible study in schools, etc. No mention that to most of us a moral value is being steadfast in what we stand for, being consistent in our beliefs, be honest, trustworthy, the whole Boy Scout litany of virtues. Patriotism and service to country and service to our fellow man. How do you get past what they are snickering about and using to claim stupidity in the opposition to where you get the true meaning of what a moral value, even what a value is.
    There are some things that are assumed to be basic truths and basic beliefs of our whole national culture. When they are under attack as they are now, then moral values matter. To hijack them as is happening now worldwide is to lose the value totally.