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Patriot Act

43 comments on Patriot Act

Patriot Act
: A contrarian view: I’m for the toughest possible measures to stop terrorists, having seen them up close. I’m not against the Patriot Act, cautious only about a few of their provisions. I’m not against airlines giving my data to the government, though many whine about that. I’m not against ID cards; I’ll be the first to volunteer. I’m for safety. So there.

In tonight’s State of the Union address, Bush says, “Key provisions of the Patriot act are set to expire next year…” And the left side of the aisle applauds, surprising him. He continues: “The terrorist threat will not expire on that schedule.” And the other side of the house applauds, louder.

43 responses to “Patriot Act”

  1. Jediflyer Avatar
    Jediflyer

    I found that funny.
    Bush looks over at the Dems clapping and deadpans:
    “The terrorist threat will not expire on that schedule”
    And the other side claps harder.
    Its like 8 Mile.

  2. Scott Avatar
    Scott

    Great political theater

  3. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Unfortunately, this government cannott be trusted with the information they seek from the Patriot Act. Too many men have been imprisoned while their families sit at home, not even knowing where they are. Such privilege we have to sit at home and enjoy this silly theater.

  4. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    Hey, I’m all for the Patriot Act too. In fact, I don’t think it goes far enough.

  5. syn Avatar
    syn

    Mike
    You speak as if 9/11/01 never happened? Remember, terrorist were the perpetrators of mass slaughter upon the innocent.
    Maybe they are imprisoned because they either were planning to commit or have already committed crimes against the innocent. Terrorists are responsible for actions against our civil liberties, not this government.
    I simply have no sympathy for defending the rights of those who want to kill me, my family, my friends and even all those whom I do not agree with politically.

  6. Mr. Davis Avatar
    Mr. Davis

    Don’t all these guys get copies of the speech? Were the Dems dumb or set up?
    Mike, please name all the Americans who have been imprisoned while their families sit at home, not even knowing where they are.

  7. Jediflyer Avatar
    Jediflyer

    Matt, do you read Newsweek?
    Despite the humerous nature of the exchange, I agree with Mike.
    There are some provisions in the Patriot Act that go to far.

  8. Jediflyer Avatar
    Jediflyer

    By Matt I mean Mr. Davis.

  9. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    >Mike, please name all the Americans who have been imprisoned
    Jose Padilla!

  10. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    >You speak as if 9/11/01 never happened? Remember, terrorist were the perpetrators of mass slaughter upon the innocent.
    That is not a good reason to trash your values.

  11. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    Thanks for having the courage to “come out” on this as it were Jeff. I might be open to nuanced and specific criticisms of the Patriot Act (first problem, the name sucks) but such criticism doesn’t seem to exist. All of the attakcks on it are so shrill and demagogic and come from the same predictable sources(Cato Institute, ACLU etc. etc.), and very little of it has more than the most superficial acknowledgement that things are, you know, a bit different after 9/11.

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Of course I haven’t forgotten 9/11, having seen those terrorists “up close.”
    And I’m not worried about the “Americans” that were (wrongfully) imprisoned; I’m worried about the people that were. I worry for the families that suffer because of it.
    At least THE DAILY SHOW is on now…

  13. Kathy_M Avatar
    Kathy_M

    The Patriot Act as originally written had no sunset provisions for any section, and had no requirements for reviews and proof of effectiveness.
    Why does the Patriot Act have to be a permanent blank check? If each part of the P.A. is working and effective, then there should be no problem renewing it when the sunset provisions kick in. If Congress had passed the “Patriot Tax” to pay for the war on terrorism, I don’t think too many would say we shouldn’t review how well that money was spent and ask for cost-benefit analyses. The Patriot Act is like a tax- go ahead and do it if necessary, but not without research, reviews, and restructuring if necessary.
    Yes, the Patriot Act was motivated by an extraordinarily important cause. But good motivations aren’t enough to prevent at least a few sub-optimal decisions, especially when made in the grip of strong emotions.

  14. Chip Seiple Avatar
    Chip Seiple

    I have no problem with the Patriot Act. If I had something to hide, I would be.
    People should be more concerned with their SSN and credit card fraud than Patriots.
    And if theyreally want to be worried, ANYONE who has $9.95 can get a simple background check on the Internet! Paranoid yet??
    Go figure!

  15. Andrew | BYTE BACK Avatar
    Andrew | BYTE BACK

    >>I might be open to nuanced and specific criticisms of the Patriot Act
    Forget that !@#$%. What does your gut tell you?

  16. StarBanker Avatar
    StarBanker

    In a country with as many “civil rights” lawyers protecting subversives as America has, one would think the anti-Patriotistas might be able to offer up a big list of these so-called innocent people that Ashcroft has locked up. I think this has about the same validity as the provisions about library records. With all the fury the librarians have mustered about the threats to freedom to read, you would think that at least one librarian could report that they have actually spoken to an investigator. That’s right, not a single librarian was “forced” to give info to the Feds. Librarians however, have been busy tracking down those that keep books to long and FINING THEM to boot. Did anyone give them the power to act as judge, jury and executioner for slow readers? No Dammit, they didn’t. You talk about being denied rights, no Miranda, no trial, no redress and no appeal. The KGB is alive and well behind the counter at your local library!

  17. wKen Avatar
    wKen

    “The terrorist threat will not expire on that schedule.”
    The threat will only expire when it stops being politically useful to frighten voters.
    Fear makes for poor legislation and unchecked governmental power is a very bad thing. What good is it to be the only world power when it means being afraid of everyone else?

  18. Andrew | BYTE BACK Avatar
    Andrew | BYTE BACK

    Exactly wken.
    you take the first few steps and it’s much easier to go down a destructive path.
    The Patriot Act abridges basic liberties that used to be celebrated in America.
    Running scared is fine for you. Me? I don’t think it’s worth it.
    Wy is Jeff “apeshit” over freedoms in Iraq, but less enthusiastic about keepng ours here in the US?

  19. James Avatar
    James

    Here’s some far right wing defenders of the PATRIOT Act, just *itching* to deprive you of
    your civil rights:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/291ryznn.asp?pg=2
    At last week’s Senate hearing, Joe Biden of Delaware didn’t have to say that “the tide of criticism” being directed against the Patriot Act “is both misinformed and overblown,” that “I stand by my support” of that law, and that the Ashcroft Justice Department has “done a pretty good job in terms of implementing” the law’s provisions. But Biden did say all these things, anyway. And California’s Dianne Feinstein went further still, in a stern and lengthy lecture about the concrete reality of U.S. anti-terrorism law–as opposed to the paranoiac fantasy version now being circulated throughout the land by the likes of Bob Barr and Howard Dean. How’s about we concentrate on some facts, Feinstein suggested.
    “I’ve tried to see what has happened in the complaints that have come in,” she said, “and I’ve received to date 21,434 complaints about the Patriot Act.” Except these turned out to be unrelated civil liberties gripes, or complaints about a “Patriot Act II” that doesn’t yet exist. “I have never had a single [verified] abuse of the Patriot Act reported to me. My staff emailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They emailed back and said they had none.”

  20. Dann Avatar
    Dann

    Jeff-
    something to the effect that those who seek safety before liberty deserving neither.
    The Patriot Act goes too far. Worse still is Patriot II.
    I might be of a different opinion if the government had demonstrated its ability to handle such information with discretion as well as the desire to respect the Constitution.
    It hasn’t. There are some things in the PA that should be salvaged. Congress should throw those items that violate our rights overboard.
    -Regards

  21. hen Avatar
    hen

    1) Padillo was not arrested under the confines of the Patriot Act;
    2) The Patriot Act is almost identical to the same regulations that confine law enforcement in dealing with RICO cases;
    3) The Senate overwhelmingly passed it;
    4) The idea that somehow our liberties are being snuffed out by the Patriot Act are nothing more then the idiotic ravings of the tin foil brigade./

  22. A Different Perspective Avatar
    A Different Perspective

    What a bunch of easily frightened babies Americans are!
    America has enjoyed 200 years with no foreign invasions and now has absolute security thanks to The Bomb. No nation would dare mess with the US.
    You arrogantly build the worlds tallest buildings, and make powerful jet planes and then forget to lock the doors to the cockpits. 20 guys with box cutters decide to do the obvious thing and take over some jets and knock the buildings down, because the arrogant Americans have pissed them off so much.
    Only 3000 people die. Whew. Only 3000. It could have been a lot worse.
    But what do Americans do? They whine and cry and cower under their beds and hand over their liberties to an administration that isn’t the least bit trustworthy!
    “we’ve been attacked!” you whine. You have no idea of what a real attack is like, you comfortable, safe crybabies.
    You would think that after the big bad USSR crumbled like a rotten egg Americans would wise up that they’re being manipulated by thier own war profiteers.
    But they wouldn’t even listen to their only good President / Military General since the first, who warned them about the war profit machine.
    What a bunch of gullable saps.

  23. hen Avatar
    hen

    I’m tempted to “fisk” A Different Perspective’s idiotic rant, but alas it is self fisking.

  24. StarBanker Avatar
    StarBanker

    To A Different Perspective:
    Brave little engine you are, I see that you are anonymous. Your perspective is clearly beyond the pale and deserves a rational response. However, I only argue with those that do not hide behind little girls, women, and phony e-mails. Therefore I decided to just call you a name, dickless came to mind, but I assumed that your wife has already copyrighted that term for you. If the Patriot Act was dangerous to civil liberties, then it clearly missed your ungrateful and pathetic ass.

  25. J-Mo Avatar
    J-Mo

    A Different Perspective – Your anti-Americanism burns so brightly it blinds you from the truth.
    “No nation would dare mess with the US.” – Al Qaeda is a nation? Al Qaeda didn’t mess with us? Just who is it you think we’re fighting against?
    “Only 3000 people die. Whew. Only 3000. It could have been a lot worse.” – We know it could have been worse and that is exactly why we strive to prevent these people from doing it again!
    Clearly, you wish that more than 3000 of us died in this vicious, cowardly attack. Go to hell.
    The point of the Patriot Act is to take certain steps that will prevent terrorist attacks from happening. This is the key to keeping our country from becoming the next Israel, where we only do something to the terrorists after they kill innocent people. The difference is the scale of attacks. Sacrificing a little civil liberty is worth preventing a situation where a few thousand innocent people are slaughtered on a weekly basis.

  26. KMK Avatar
    KMK

    I seem to remember Senator Russ Feingold forming bipartisan legislation to amend several provisions of the Patriot act. If I’m not mistaken it had to do with monitoring without adequate judicial oversight. I think it’s called the Safe act. Anyway, the Patriot act was passed just 6 weeks after 9/11 under pressure and with limited debate. Now it’s up for renewal and debate hopefully they will address some of the issues that seem questionable. cdt.org is a good site if your looking to get more involved.

  27. penny Avatar
    penny

    Hey, A Different Perspective, it will be a “lot worse” if a dirty bomb gets detonated in an American city. Any government not anticipating and countering that grim possibilty is derelect to its citizens. What part of the carnage on 9/11 did you not understand?
    The Patriot Act was a responsible act of legislation in response to a whole new paradigm in our history.

  28. Wes Avatar
    Wes

    The reason I’m not worried about the Patriot Act is because if it really IS crap, then our court system will prove it so. Checks & balances, ya wankers.

  29. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    A responsible piece of legislation?! Putting over 1100 people in jail and only charging so few is not responsible; it’s disgusting. Don’t patronize us by questioning whether we understood the carnage of September 11th. Of course we did. We understand the value of ALL human lives, no matter the nationality.

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Jose Padilla–aka Abdullah Al Muhajir–more newspapers should print his real name, if he does not use Jose why should they? Maybe to make him seem less like an enemy?????

  31. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    While I’d be open to the argument that 9-11 revealed security holes that the PATRIOT Act is needed to plug — I don’t know if I would necessarily agree, but I’d be sympathetic to the argument — the groundwork for that argument hasn’t been laid yet. Until 9-11 has been thoroughly investigated by an independent commission, and the results of that investigation are public, we don’t have the tools to evaluate things like the PATRIOTIC Act. All we have are 1) our suspicion of unchecked government power (valid), and 2) our fear of another 9-11 (also valid). The Bush Administration hasn’t really earned the benefit of the doubt on this score, though.

  32. penny Avatar
    penny

    Putting over 1100 people in jail and only charging so few is not responsible; it’s disgusting.
    Could you point us to a link for that fact. 1100 who? Where? Gitmo detainees? Let’s get specific as to who and what these jailed people are.
    We understand the value of ALL human lives…….
    I don’t. OBL and his ilk have no value to me. If I catch your drift, OBL and his victims are accorded equal value? No in my universe.
    Until 9-11 has been thoroughly investigated by an independent commission, and the results of that investigation are public, we don’t have the tools to evaluate things like the PATRIOTIC Act.
    What possible revelation from the 9/11 commission would change the facts that a terrorist act occured, OBL in a tape shortly thereafter took credit for it, intelligence prior to the event was ineffective, prevention was ineffective, the same old, same old parts of most homicide scenes. Law enforcement has taken action to prevent a repeat and is hunting down the killers and associates. We didn’t need the Patriot Act before 9/11, after we did.

  33. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Gosh, Penny, I wish I knew who and where. Unfortunately our government has kept it a secret. But here’s your little link: http://www.aclu.org/news/NewsPrint.cfm?ID=9304&c=111
    I’ve always found Dr. Al-Hazmi’s story interesting. It must have been something to be held for two weeks without any contact with a lawyer or family, only to be released with no charges filed.
    OBL has no value to me either. But I hate creating more victims in the name of our safety.

  34. A Different Perspective Avatar
    A Different Perspective

    Hey, A Different Perspective, it will be a “lot worse” if a dirty bomb gets detonated
    You would like that wouldn’t you? It would justify your fear and your guilt over your comfortable easy life!
    Why do you hate America so much that you would wish that? You Americans can kill 3000 in another country without losing any sleep at all
    3000 in Panama 10000 in Iraq 5000 in the Afghanistan 2000 in Columbia!
    But until your propaganda media pushes your nose in it you don’t know or care!
    Then you get all scared of terrorists and give your money to greedy basterds to make more bombs to drop on other countries!
    I am anonymous because cowards are many and they always look to kill the truth that travels alone

  35. hen Avatar
    hen

    “I am anonymous because cowards are many and they always look to kill the truth that travels alone.”
    Snort.
    Hey you forgot to count the 25,000 babies we killed in Iceland, and the 43,000 women we turned into dust in Slovakia, and… what? You had no idea about either Iceland or Slovakia? Well you need to double foil your hat and always look to the eastern star at 6;00 PM and the broadcasts will come in thru your fillings.
    Don’t forget: They’re watching; They are ALWAYS watching.
    (dork)

  36. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Mike: Well said.
    ADF: I’m sympathetic to your concern for the value of human life, but you’re not helping that cause with stuff like: I am anonymous because cowards are many and they always look to kill the truth that travels alone. Sheeeesh.

  37. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    A Different Perspective = The Same Stupid Sh*t. Yawn.
    “You arrogantly build the worlds tallest buildings”
    I guess that thing in Kuala Lumpur is next. That’ll teach those arrogant Malaysians to piss off the Oppressed Dwellers in Cities With Short Buildings!

  38. StarBanker Avatar
    StarBanker

    The messiah visits!

  39. Kerry Dupont Avatar
    Kerry Dupont

    Hey, as far as the library thing goes, a magazine here in Maine, called DownEast, did an article on it in their “Talk of the Town” section last month. It quoted librarians statewide as saying that they have had over 50 inquests from the DOJ under section 215A. Now, National Review had a big article on it as well, and said exactly the opposite, that not once has that part of the Patriot Act been used. Somebody’s got something wrong, or somebody’s lying, or MOST LIKELY, somebody far far removed from the Federal DOJ (like the FBI-ha ha) is using the Act to make inquests and it isn’t getting reported to Congress as it should, because the DOJ is the one reporting to Congress on it, therefore if they don’t know it’s happening (as we’ve seen happens in a large beaurocracy, the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing). Just a theory. Dang, Ashcroft has a hell of a job.
    Here’s my feeling. You are still FREE to read whatever you want. Get real, nobody’s going to look you up because you check out a book on how to make bombs, chemical engineering, or terrorism. However, if you name is Mohammed Atta and you have loads of money coming in from some place in Saudi Arabia, and you have phone calls that have been traced to other known terrorists, AND you take out a book on aircraft, it’s one more way for them to make a case for a big picture to bring you in and question you. And when I remember people jumping from the towers, I’m OK with that.

  40. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    And when I remember people jumping from the towers, I’m OK with that.
    This is the precise illustration of what keeps Bush afloat, IMO. Doubt (“well, there could be a problem with that…”) vs. fear (“I remember people jumping from the towers”) = victory of fear.
    Terrorism works.
    However, one key lesson of recent history is that when governments have powers that could be abused, chances are they >will be abused. The victims of that abuse aren’t likely to be soothed by the memory of people jumping from the towers. That’s a hard thing to hear but it needs to be heard.

  41. Guy from Ohio Avatar
    Guy from Ohio

    I have heard many people say

  42. Bryan C Avatar
    Bryan C

    Contrary to some assertions, supporting the Patriot Act does not require boundless and childlike trust in the goodness of government power. Just simple pragmatism.
    All power can be abused. I’m certain that the Patriot Act will be abused, at some point. The laws that existed before 9-11 were occasionally abused, as well. But possible or even actual abuse does not in itself invalidate the existence of a law, or we couldn’t have any laws at all. When we discover actual, documented instances of abuse then they must be dealt with and the law changed to prevent them, if possible.
    Frankly, however, I trust our country’s law enforcement forces to do their sworn duty far more than I trust terrorists to stop being terrorists.

  43. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    But possible or even actual abuse does not in itself invalidate the existence of a law, or we couldn’t have any laws at all.
    Except that not all laws or legal situations were created equal in this regard. America has experience with the kind of legal situation created by the PATRIOT Act, and found the costs outweighed the benefits. Whether the risk today makes an argument for the Act is debatable, but the most troubling thing about it is that it really hasn’t been debated that much — it was passed in a panic — and is now being insulated against debate and assessment by secrecy. It’s a Bad Thing, to put it mildly, to be engaged in a War on Terrorism and then have the capacity to assess your tools of domestic enforcement blocked or impaired.