Defending the homeland

Defending the homeland
: The intermittently reasonable Harry Hatchet takes me, among others, to task for what he paints as right-wing grandstanding.

My sin? I defended my countrymen against grandstanding attacks from two turncoat Americans — not surprisingly Michael Moore and surprisingly a Newsweek bureau chief who should at least be trying to act less biased — who went to European media — the Guardian and Die Zeit — to attack their fellow Americans as everything from stupid to amoral.

What, I’m supposed to sit here and take it? I’m supposed to say, you’re right, we’re all a bunch of idiots and losers and we’d be so much better off if we’d never declared independence so we’d have Prince Chuck giving us an example of character and intelligence?

No, Harry, you’re the one grandstanding. You lump anyone who disagrees with you or dares to defend himself against attacks with which you obviously agree under the “right-wing” umbrella. Well, Harry, the only reason I’m ever called right-wing is because I supported the same war you did. If I’m one, you are two, mate. I would say that what you’re doing shows little consideration of the complexities of the relationship between Europe and America, an unwillingness to seriously engage in the arguments of critics or doubters. It’s all grandstanding, point-scoring, playing to the gallery stuff. It is, on the whole, totally tedious.

Oh, right, that’s precisely what you said about me.

Well, I’m sure we’ll see the best of consideration of complexities of the European-American relationship from your side of the pond when our President shows up. I’m sure we won’t see a moment of grandstanding from you and your media. Sure.

UPDATES: Well, I have arrived. I’ve been attacked by the Guardian. It’s online. But it’s a start.

Neil McIntosh says:

A morning of surfing through the rapidly expanding political weblog scene takes me to Harry’s Place, where there’s been some good stuff on the diminishing quality of debate on some US political weblogs. It’s a thought that had been forming since reading Jeff Jarvis denounce American dissenters as “cultural traitors” a few days back, and Harry’s does a nice job of articulating what’s happened, and bringing together some supporting linkage….

That shrill, extremist voices are more likely to bring in the punters than moderate, reasoned ones is not a new notion for “old” media. But that, and the hard-nosed drive for pageviews which has always been “a-list” blogging’s biggest dirty secret, will still likely disappoint the more idealistic bloggers who hoped their brave new world would nurture a different kind of debate.

Well, I would call both Moore and, these days, the Guardian “shrill and extremist.” I’m just an middle-aged American liberal who got tired of seeing Americans attacked. I will remind you: A bunch of shrill, extremist people tried to kill me two years ago just because I am an American. Now I read Americans attacking Americans as a people and I defend my fellow citizens. Shrill? Fine, whatever you like. Extremist? Well, I suppose these days daring to defend America is extremist. So be it. Make up whatever shrill and extremist labels you like, Neil. Takes one to know one.

I didn’t say what I said for traffic, boys. I said what I said because I believe it. Before I became an executive, I used to write for millions. Now I write for thousands. I don’t do it for the traffic.

: And now we see Harry trying to backtrack — skinback, as we call it in the trade — in the comments:

I didn’t call you “right-wing” and while I share the general feeling about Michael Moore I thought it was intolerent to describe the Newsweek writer as a “cultural traitor”.

If a British conservative came to the USA and said he was embarassed to be British because of Tony Blair, the BBC’s coverage of the war and the level of anti-Americanism in the country would that make him a “cultural traitor”?

Well, Harry, I thought it was intolerant of the Newsweek bloke to call all his fellow countrymen amoral. Read his piece again. Then defend it. Unfisk it: Take it line by line and tell me how he’s right and I’m wrong. Yes, you bet, I’m intolerant of his intolerance. No apologies for that, my friend.

And as for your question: If a Brit of any stripe came to America and said he was — your words — “embarrassed to be British because of Tony Blair,” I would say he was an idiot and a horse’s rump. If he wants to come and say he disagrees with Blair and Blair’s policy’s and actions, dandy. If he wants to discard the value of his own people and heritage and tradition and nationality as a result, well, that’s patently stupid and spiteful and, yes, it makes him a turncoat — my word: traitor — to his own people, his own culture, his own land. That is the “love-it-or-leave-it” level of thinking I rejected in my youth — just the other side of the coin. That’s precisely the point.

: UPDATE ON THE UPDATE: Harry comes back in the comments and calls me “illiberal” because I attacked Moore and the Newsweek guy.

Glad Harry is the keeper of the cloak of liberalism.

Let me ask you this, Harry: If a liberal — by your definition — came to America and said that because Blair supports Bush and because Britons elected him, Britons are then clearly ammoral and stupid and dangerous and ignorant, would you (a) agree with that fellow liberal or (b) defend the honor of your countrymen? That’s what this is about, pure and simple.

Pardon me, but I’m going to take a very dangerous and contrarian and by some views shrill, right-wing, illiberal stance and I’ll take your barbs and the Guardian’s with pride:

I’m pro-American.

Let me say that again, because I am one and because I was attacked and damned near killed because I am one (and yes, that matters):

I am pro-American.

22 responses to “Defending the homeland”

  1. Bill Herbert Avatar

    I really didn’t get from Harry’s post that he was criticizing the substance of your criticism of Moore and the Newsweek guy. I thought he was just taking you to task for using such a term as “cultural traitor,” and I think he had a point. To be honest, “turncoat Americans” doesn’t sound any better.
    What’s wrong with just saying they were full of sh*t? The words you chose don’t necessarily convey that, and they sounded pretty McCarthyite. Even if you buy the argument that there is something inherently wrong with criticizing your government or even the general mood that grips the nation at the time — which I do not — the term “cultural traitor” says nothing about whether the criticisms are right or wrong. It just makes you sound like Ann Coulter.

  2. CF Avatar

    Saying your countrymen are stupid is actually worse than “cultural traitor” (whatever that means – I’m sure Jeff can expound). It is just feeding into ignorant stereotypes for short term gain – in Michael Moore’s case, financial gain.
    Europeans using ignorant stereotypes? Mass irrational uprisings of national and ethnic hatred by Europeans? Scapegoating fed by biased media and fanned by politicians? It’s sad to say, but that spectre still haunts Europe – and resurfacing antiamericanism is its latest manifestation.

  3. Jeremy Brown Avatar

    “These people are traitors to their people. I don’t mean political, legal, military traitors. I mean cultural traitors. They take sport in denying their own. They think it makes them cool. Self-hating Americans.”
    As excerpted above, I think Jeff’s meaning was quite clear — He specifically said he was not calling them political traitors. Michael Moore is supposed to be a champion of the working American, but then ridicules Americans in a German publication for not jetsetting around Europed enough. I think the word “traitor” is fair enough.
    This reminds me of something: as a Jewish person I have been on both sides of a similar epithet: “self-hating Jew.” I was called that by Jewish friend once but it frankly didn’t sting because it wasn’t true (she later apologized). The point is, it didn’t mean that I was a Nazi and should be executed as a war criminal — I’m not that histrionic or paranoid — so I could quite easily laugh it off. But there *is* a phenomenon whereby people are ashamed of their own cultural identity and shamelessly seek an audience to whom they can express contempt for their own cultural kin. Michael Moore has taken this farther still by sneering at his own country (not the administration, but the *people*) at a time when Americans are losing their lives. If Moore criticizes American policy, he’s a political commentator. If he habitually sneers and ridicules the culture of ordinary Americans, it’s not Jeff’s contrivance to perceive him as a cultural traitor. If Moore thinks its unfair, then he can shrug it off. But if the shoe fits…
    And it’s clear to me that Harry was having a little tantrum and felt the need to distance himself from the appearance of being some kind of right wing blogger. That’s ok enough, but there was was reason to bash other bloggers in the process, and there’s no reason for anyone named in that post to take it lying down.

  4. PJF Avatar

    Yup, Harry Hatchet is as off his trolley with his “right wing” rant as you were with your “cultural traitor” nonsense.
    I can’t conclude from your rant that you are “right wing”, anymore than I can conclude from Moore’s outpourings that he is any kind of traitor.
    Still, you manage to be sensible most of the time; and Harry Hatchet some of the time. Moore is just a lying, cheating scumbag who probably doesn’t actually believe what he says himself.

  5. Harry Avatar

    Jeff,
    I didn’t call you “right-wing” and while I share the general feeling about Michael Moore I thought it was intolerent to describe the Newsweek writer as a “cultural traitor”.
    If a British conservative came to the USA and said he was embarassed to be British because of Tony Blair, the BBC’s coverage of the war and the level of anti-Americanism in the country would that make him a “cultural traitor”?

  6. Catherine Avatar

    Harry – MMoore did more than bash Bush. He put down all Americans in his rant. I guess he didn’t think anyone would see it since he tries to portray himself on this side of the Atlantic as a guy who is in solidarity with the average Joe. In his rant, he ridiculed the average Joe.
    Seems a little two faced to me. Michael Moore making fun of those who made him rich, the average American.

  7. KMK Avatar

    I read Harry site quite frequently. I had to read this post twice to make sure my eyes were working. Jeff and Andrew right wing wacko’s?
    “There’s no real free speech in Britain” – Andrew Sullivan
    Three words come to mind Free – Speech – Zone.
    How many of you actually watch British TV. Lacking in it? Here;
    http://www.channel4.com/news/c4n.ram
    Click on the left where it says Watch Narrowband you have Michael Moore on Britsh news. After what I watched cultural traitor is far to nice of a description.

  8. Mark Avatar

    Harry,
    You are not comparing apples to apples. In your question to Jeff the British conservative is not talking about how ignorant the British people are. Does he consistently call Tony stupid or an idiot or a moron? C’mon he called the American people stupid.
    I can’t imagine that Jeff cares whether he’s left or right? It’s just a blatantly inaccurate comment to make about Americans. So he has to have some “other” motivation than truth. And that should obvious to the casual observer.
    I think Europeans are so busy trying to fit Americans into a box that they miss the breadth of what it means to be an American. I think the point so often missed by Europeans is that trying to define an American is as difficult as defining a European. We have as much diversity of culture and thought in one city as some of your countries do. Difference in languages is not the only thing that defines diversity.
    I imagine Jeff finds it funny that you would define him is right wing. I certainly do. I consider Jeff to be left of center.

  9. Harry Avatar

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1080997,00.html
    Yes I’ve read the article Jeff.
    This guy is no Michael Moore – he’s actually welcoming what he sees as a decline in anti-Americanism.
    Moore, because he is an idiot, is an easy target – it was unfair to lump McGuire in with him (especially when he is actually critical of Moore himself).
    Not only unfair – calling him a traitor was illiberal.
    Define your politics how you want but if you think that labelling people “cultural traitors” just because they are anti-Bush is liberal then you are kidding yourself.

  10. KMK Avatar

    Funny, Harry, weren’t you just complaining of the Guardian nicking stories from blogs without giving proper credit? Oh no, that’s right you were flattered. http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/cgi-bin/mt-tb.cgi/590
    Well, now you have arrived mate via of all things a hyperbole. Funny how that works isn’t it.

  11. Mark Avatar

    Harry,
    I imagine you want Jeff to respond to your question…
    “If a British conservative came to the USA and said he was embarassed to be British because of Tony Blair, the BBC’s coverage of the war and the level of anti-Americanism in the country would that make him a “cultural traitor”?”
    How about responding to mine?
    Does your fictitious British conserative call the British people stupid and Tony Blair a moron?
    I think what really is going on here is that Harry is trying to increase traffic at his website by trying to pick an online fight.
    I would have to say Harry that is quite entrepreneurial of you… whether you’re an American or European.

  12. Mark Avatar

    “Define your politics how you want but if you think that labelling people “cultural traitors” just because they are anti-Bush is liberal then you are kidding yourself.”
    ” — to attack their fellow Americans as everything from stupid to amoral.”
    Don’t you get the difference, Harry?
    I would bet that you do get the differnece. And that is why I think you are doing this in order to get attention, which one might call grandstanding.

  13. Michael Avatar

    Michael Moore and Stryker McGuire probably fit Jeff’s definition of “cultural traitor,” but I think the term has too many unfortunate connotations to be useful. The implication seems to be that one has a moral duty to defend, or at least remain silent about, the culture of one’s countrymen. Is that thesis defensible?
    (Because Michael Moore is an enemy of everything Good and Beautiful, I’ll leave him out of this.)
    I disagree with Newsweek’s McGuire because he’s mistaken in his conclusions about the way America should have responded to 9-11 and Arab-related threats to our security. But if I had come to the same conclusions as McGuire about American foreign policy myopia and the American public’s support for that policy, then I would damn well say so, and I’d find it laughably weak if anyone accused me of “cultural treason.”
    It also seems simpleminded to object to McGuire’s loose identification of President Bush with the American people. We did elect him to represent us, didn’t we? We still generally support him if current polls are accurate. And he looks like he’s on his way to something like a landslike reelection (he has my vote, anyway). Unless the Illuminati secretly control who holds office, I think it’s fair to come to at least rough, tentative judgments about a country based on its elected leaders. And it’s fair to have at least mild contempt for an electorate that puts a fool or a criminal in high office.
    I’m 5/8 German, I learned German before English, my mom is German, my two older brothers were born there, and I have many German relatives. None of that stops from concluding that the German electorate has gone a bit loony when it:
    – shrugs when it learns its foreign minister was a Marxist street thug with close friends in the Baader-Meinhof gang,
    – overwhelmingly believes that America invaded Iraq to steal its oil,
    – includes many people (1/3 of Germans under 30) who believe the Bush administration may have orchestrated 9-11.
    Even though I think it’s fair to hold people somewhat responsible for their elected leaders, I have no idea what McGuire is talking about when he writes:

    “If [Bush isn’t] America, say the sceptics, then explain … Israel-Palestine, Syria, Iran.”

    Well, I understand the Israel part, but does anyone know what the hell he’s talking about when he blames the US for Syria and Iran?
    Anyway, I think it would be wiser to stick with “idiotarian” rather than “cultural traitor” when dealing with a fool like McQuire.
    (These are strange times when a Reagan-loving conservative has to defend a Leftist know-not from a charge of treason brought by a liberal.)

  14. Andy Freeman Avatar
    Andy Freeman

    > Not only unfair – calling him a traitor was illiberal.
    To be accurate, Jarvis called him a cultural traitor.
    Since “cultural traitor” is an accurate description of Moore abroad (and at home), the above tells us that Harry has a curious definition of “illiberal”? Or is should I chalk this up to a difference between “American” and “English”?

  15. SharpShooter Avatar
    SharpShooter

    MMoore lives in, works in, pulls levers in and manipulates to his advantage, HIS MATERIAL ADVANTAGE and to his children’s advantage, the American way of free enterprise, self-determination and responsible free-speech.
    THEN, MMoore denigrates, demeans, vilifies, satirizes and figuratively spits on, all that got him into a position to spit ON it…
    THAT is what makes him traitorous and self-loathing.

  16. Sandy P. Avatar

    If you don’t have the guts to say it in your home country, then maybe it shouldn’t be said. Saying it in another country is the coward’s way out.
    Of course, it would affect one’s pocketbook…..And in M&M’s case, he’s either up to his eyeballs in debt or he’s filthy rich.
    Telling Americans what is wrong w/their country has been going on for decades and we took it silently. No more. It’s going to come back at you in spades, especially after the UN pony show. And the blogosphere turns it around on the cowards very, very quickly.

  17. Cara Remal Avatar

    “As far as I can see, no therapy short of complete military defeat has any chance of re-establishing the common stability of literature and of the man on the street.”
    “At the time I remember the American playwright (and London resident) Bonnie Greer saying – hoping – that if any good were to come out of 9/11 it would be that the terror attacks might ‘literally bomb’ America into recognising that there is a world beyond US shores.
    No such luck.”
    Both these quotes have something in common: they both hope that foreign aggression against their country will somehow ‘save’ them from themselves.
    The second quote is from our illustious Newsweek reporter Stryker McQuire, the first is from Alex Comforte, known traitor, in 1942.
    Excellent post Jeff! Thanx for plugging away!

  18. Dave F Avatar

    I read and comment on both Harry’s and Jeff’s blog quite a bit, and I would just like to request that you both simmer down, because at the moment you are simply getting overheated about semantics.
    Jeff, I have to say that the word traitor does sound illiberal when it’s applied to free speech. Of course Moore is a buffoon and worthy of attack. But there’s no such thing as badmouthing your country abroad any more; there is no abroad, as the blogosphere demonstrates. The world says, and the world listens.
    If you’d called Mikey a contemptible hypocrite, that would have been perfectly fine with everyone round here and around Harry’s Place, I suspect. But the other term, I am sure unintentionally, raises the spectre of intolerance. As a good American, I am sure you don’t intend that.
    Cool it, guys.

  19.  Avatar

    Well, guys; if you knew how many Europeans take Moore’s words as gospel, with the “added credibility” derived from the fact that “hey, he’s one of them so he *really* knows”, you probably would call him a ‘cultural traitor’ too. BTW, it’s amazing how people seem to read too fast: Jeff literally said “I don’t mean political, legal, military traitors. I mean cultural traitors”, and this sentence seems pretty clear to me; and yet the reaction is as if he had said they were political, legal and military traitors. Guess these things happens, since one has to read fast if he wants to keep up with so many blogs, but please, please read carefully before bringing someone to task distorting words.
    BTW, I want to be criticized by The Guardian too! :-)

  20. Eric Deamer Avatar

    You make a good point Franco, which someone also brought up on the earlier thread. These statements are taken by foreign media and effectively become part of a propaganda war against the United States. Moore is hugely popular in Germany and his work has gone a long way towards creating the impression there that Americans are amoral gun fanatics. This has to have played some kind of part in the German government’s turning against us on Iraq. If this does not make Moore a “cultural traitor” what is he exactly then? Keep in mind also that Indonesian terrorist Hambali was also an admirer of his work.

  21. P Caldwell Avatar

    Excellent post!
    I hope you’re not too offended personally by the media attacks on you. I suspect that even people who are regularly exposed to the scorn of the liberal elite never quite get used the sting of an unjustified swipe.
    Hopefully the supportive comments you receive on your posts remind you that no matter how “shrill” the name-calling gets from the other side, your supporters will not think less of you for it. Rational people will see these insults for what they are, an attempt to dodge a reply on the merits with an easy label that questions your integrity.
    “illegitimis non te carborundum”

  22. Phil Avatar

    I’m sick of American bashing, so I’m gonna just lash out, rather than understand why our actions are causing suffering throughout the world. Rather than oppose the administration that has hijacked the american dream, I’m going to support them, because I’m stupid and watch FOX news.
    You’re a fucking moron.
    Let me say that again, you’re a fucking moron.