Jumping the shark for Jesus, continued

Jumping the shark for Jesus, continued

: George Will has a good start to a column today about George Bush apparently trying to pull back from the follies of the religious fringe. But Will doesn’t pull back quite far enough, in my view, for he contrasts only the religious fringe with the godless and leaves out the vast religious majority inbetween.

The state of America’s political discourse is such that the president has felt it necessary to declare that unbelievers can be good Americans. In last week’s prime-time news conference, he said: “If you choose not to worship, you’re equally as patriotic as somebody who does worship.”

So Mark Twain, Oliver Wendell Holmes and a long, luminous list of other skeptics can be spared the posthumous ignominy of being stricken from the rolls of exemplary Americans. And almost 30 million living Americans welcomed that presidential benediction.

According to the American Religious Identification Survey, Americans who answer “none” when asked to identify their religion numbered 29.4 million in 2001, more than double the 14.3 million in 1990. If unbelievers had their own state — the state of None — its population would be more than twice that of New England’s six states, and None would be the nation’s second-largest state:

California, 34.5 million.

None, 29.4 million.

Texas, 21.3 million.

The president, whose political instincts, at least, are no longer so misunderestimated by his despisers, may have hoped his remarks about unbelievers would undo some of the damage done by the Terri Schiavo case. During that Florida controversy, he made a late-night flight from his Texas ranch to Washington to dramatize his signing of imprudent legislation that his party was primarily responsible for passing. He and his party seemed to have subcontracted governance to certain especially fervid religious supporters.

He then goes on to praise Pat Robertson — “who is fervid but also shrewd” — for tolerating the idea of a Guiliani run for President and says: “Some Christians should practice the magnanimity of the strong rather than cultivate the grievances of the weak.”

As if Robertson is a model. He neglects to mention Robertson’s other recent media appearance contending that loose judges are the most serious threat to America in 400 years of history — more serious than the Nazis and slavery and explicitly more serious than al Qaeda. A fine model of political reasonableness.

Will then goes on to argue that the religious right should stop trying to play victim and he uses Passion of the Christ and best-selling religious books and more as his evidence. “But their persecution complex is unbecoming because it is unrealistic.” I agree with that.

But I have a problem with making Robertson, Passion, and the Left Behind books the milestones of religion in America. Will puts people in that camp or in the unbelieving camp. But there is a vast religious middle that would not qualify as religious by the definition of some, that may not be the most loyal churchgoers or churchgoers at all, that may hold opinions that are antithetical to the beliefs of this group… but they are religious Americans nonetheless. I am in that middle, that mainstream. But that’s the subject of another post another day.

: At the same time, in The Times, David Brooks writes about religion and Abraham Lincoln:

On Sept. 22, 1862, Abraham Lincoln gathered his cabinet to tell them he was going to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. He said he had made a solemn vow to the Almighty that if God gave him victory at Antietam, Lincoln would issue the decree.

Lincoln’s colleagues were stunned. They were not used to his basing policy on promises made to the Lord. They asked him to repeat what he’d just said. Lincoln conceded that “this might seem strange,” but “God had decided the question in favor of the slaves.”

I like to think about this episode when I hear militant secularists argue that faith should be kept out of politics.

Well, I’d be stunned, too. So what if the battle had gone the other way: Would Lincoln have left the slaves imprisoned? Does this mean he believes that God joins in a battle? Yes, stunning. I don’t think that’s a mark of sane religion in government any more than Pat Robertson is.

Deciding that slavery is wrong and must be stopped should not require a signal from God; it should be evident from studying God’s word and from examining one’s own conscience. Brooks would call that relativism — “the bland relativism of the militant secularists.” But that is not relativism. That is morality. That is what religion is about.

But Brooks would call me a “militant secularist.” I think those are fighting words.

32 responses to “Jumping the shark for Jesus, continued”

  1. alkali Avatar
    alkali

    It seems possible that Lincoln might have calculated that an emancipation proclamation would be a good choice at that point in time depending on the military fortunes of the Union, and described his calculation in that way. The judgment may be peculiar but the language (for the period) would not be.

  2. billg Avatar

    >>If you choose not to worship, you’re equally as patriotic as somebody who does worship.”
    When he says that, I suspect most of his evangelical supporters equate “worship” with “attendance at least every Sunday at an evangelical church”. To give Bush a begrudging benefit of doubt, he might equate it with worship inside some kind of building.
    It is indicative of the current influence of the politicized fundamentalist religious right that even those who oppose them adopt their vocabulary and even some of their premises. One need not be an evangelical to be Christian, yet many have adopted language that conflates the two terms. One need not enter a church, synagogue or mosque to worship, and many who do enter those buildings do not worship.
    Those who continue to support the freedoms the right would suppress in the name of God need to assert their own vocabulary.

  3. Skate Avatar

    It is too bad that the religious right doesn’t recognise that a neutral and secular government allows all religions to flourish. Or perhaps they do and that is the problem, **other** religions.
    The religious right loves to keep saying how the US has become more secular but that is the opposite of the truth. Every study I’ve seen shows that religion is at an all time high in the US. But, as they become more entrenched, the religious right is no longer satisfied with mere record levels of religiosity–they want complete domination.
    Theocracy bad. Constitution good.

  4. David Galbraith Avatar

    Lincoln was a good politician – couching a radical, unpopular, maverick, but fundamentally ‘christian’ (with a small c)decision as God given, pulled the rug from under the conservatives feet.
    I wish someone would do that with the religious fundamentalists of today. They are the people who would have put the slaves back in chains.

  5. Scott Chaffin Avatar

    I think those are fighting words.
    I think you’re manufacturing outrage to keep up your shark-jumping series.
    How’s Stern doing in the ratings these days? Still talking on the radio?

  6. Jack Tanner Avatar
    Jack Tanner

    There is no such thing as
    ‘christian’ (with a small c)

  7. Jack Tanner Avatar
    Jack Tanner

    ‘who continue to support the freedoms the right would suppress in the name of God ‘
    Can you write down those rights that are being suppressed? Let me guess…freedom of speech?

  8. billg Avatar

    Well, quickly, off the top of my head, I’d say the relgious right wants to block a woman’s control of her own life and welfare; block our right to determine how we are treated on our deathbeds; block our’s and our children’s right to an education free of ideological bias and slant; place de facto religious qualifications on candidacies for public office… that’s enoguh for a start.
    The politicos who use and manipulate the funamentalist religious right in this country trace their lineage, ideological and otherwise, back to the Dixiecrats and other racist politicians who found a welcome refuge in the Republican Party when the Democrats found a tiny bit of guts about standing up for the Constitution. Their more recent progentitor is Nixon and his race-baiting Southern Strategy (something today’s Republicans have not refuted and still employ).

  9. Ruth Avatar

    There’s a rather long series of reflections on liberalism in Winds Of Change at http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006770.php#51039
    Ignore anything written by or replied to ‘raymond’ and it’s a very well developed commentary on religion and politics.

  10. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Much like the Dems race-baiting in the inner cities which they will not refute and still employ. But that’s different, of course. As someone who would be most at risk of a Religious Right takeover of the nation, I do not see the danger as you anti religion people do. You despise and fear millions of your fellow citizens. Sometimes the cause is religion, sometimes the cause is culture, and sometimes the cause is that every non-Kerry supporter is an idiot. Your bigotry towards your own fellow citizens is what keeps you out of power and so bitter and impotent. Try practicing what you contantly preach: tolerance, love, and peace. If you can’t understand or respect a huge section of your own fellow citizens, what do you really have to offer the wider world? You’re the deep nuanced intellectuals, remember?

  11. Paw Avatar

    I am neither a Democrat nor a religious person in the traditional sense (my relationship with God is MY business alone). What I despise and fear specifically are those individuals or groups that believe God has chosen them to tell me how I should live my life, especially if the things I do are not affecting the rights of these folks to live their lives in the way they see fit. “Live and let live” is not an option for the fundamentalist right – I would have substantially more respect, tolerance and love for them if it was. How’s that for nuance, Ptolemy?

  12. Jack Tanner Avatar
    Jack Tanner

    ‘I’d say the relgious right wants to block a woman’s control of her own life and welfare;’
    Assuming you’re alluding to abortion. A tenuous ‘right’ at best, but clearly a moral question with hypocritical zealots as supporters on both sides.
    ‘block our right to determine how we are treated on our deathbeds; ‘
    Can you cite a ‘right’ here? Obviously another moral question with hypocritical zealots as supporters on both sides.
    ‘block our’s and our children’s right to an education free of ideological bias and slant;’
    OK – let’s try again – can you cite a ‘right’ here and can you say with a straight face that current public and higher education is ‘free of ideological bias and slant’?
    ‘place de facto religious qualifications on candidacies for public office’
    I’m sorry but isn’t Bernie Sanders supposedly the leading candidate for Jeffords seat in VT? I live in a state where there are 9 US Reps and 2 Senators all Dems, all except 1 pro abortion and at least 8 of them are nominally Roman Catholics. They were all duly elected and all serve. Maybe they couldn’t win in Texas maybe they could. People all across this country, can, and do vote for candidates of different faiths either because of or in spite of their faith and practice or non practice. That’s called democracy.
    ‘The politicos who use and manipulate the funamentalist religious right’
    are representing and drawing support from their constituents just like politicians from the left.
    Because you have a preference for a POV doesn’t make it a ‘right’. Others who don’t agree with your position aren’t taking any make believe rights from you by voting for whomever they prefer any more or less than you are taking their make believe rights by supporting your candidates.
    Despite your factually and logically incorrect assertion about of the origins of religious groups affecting the political process they go back to the birth of the country and were primarily responsible for abolition, prohibition, 19th century social welfare movement and the Civil Rights movement among other things. They’ve moved around the country, are part of both major parties and will continue to evolve and remain involved in the future. I’m absolutely sure that the only candidate in the ’04 presidential campaign who was any sort of religious figure ran as a Democrat in the national primaries. As I remember he didn’t do real well.

  13. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    No nuance at all. I’ve hated Jerry Falwell since fifth grade. I cringe to watch these idiots on the tv. What you are doing, or at least those aligned with you are doing, is saying all conservative Christians are Jerry Falwell. That is no nuance. That is standard bigotry. Now, you are free to be bigoted to Christians but stop imagining you have the moral high ground when bitching about anyone else’s.

  14. Evan Avatar

    It is amazing how illogical and idiotic people on the left have gotten about religion. Repeat after me: Everyone has a right to whatever policy positions they want and for whatever moral, logical, scientific, religious, or whatever reason they choose to base it on.
    For example, you may want to take Martin Luther King Day off because he was a great civil rights leader. I may want to do it to honor a Christian pastor. Another person might just like the day off from work. Who cares what peoples motivations are?
    Anti-drug laws have a myriad of reasons for support as well (prevent crime, stop people from harming themselves, religious views of intoxication). So does abortion. So do gun laws. So does indecency regulation. You can be for or against any of these positions for any number of reasons, most of which are not religious. And even if a persons reason is religious, who cares? What right does your non-religious moral code have over someone else’s religious one?
    You know, Christianity speaks a lot about helping the poor. Therefore I now declare that any Democrat that supports high taxes and social welfare programs to be a ‘radical fundamentalist’, trying to impose their fundamentalist Christianity on the rest of us.

  15. rivlax Avatar
    rivlax

    You and Instapundit are letting your emotion cloud your vision. Try as I might, I can’t make Robertson’s comment about the judiciary seem as apocalyptic as you two seem to think. Here’s the point: A totalitarian-minded judiciary can destroy the Constitution and the country. No outside threat can do that. Those other calamities are proof of that, not an argument against his view. Quit letting your anti-fundy bias affect your reason.

  16. John Avatar

    I believe that our brains are hardwired to seek out the divine in some way.
    I have walked both sides of the street, so to speak. My life experience is better when I choose some form of spirituality.
    Secularism as practiced in Europe, and as a component of social*st doctrine, denies this basic human need, and actively seeks to quash it.
    In my opinion, this brand of secularist activism is wrong in every way.
    Human beings have sought contact with the divine from the beginning of time.
    As with many other things, those on the left are so ass-backwards wrong that their folly would be amusing if it weren’t so destructive.

  17. billg Avatar

    Tanner:
    1. Abortion: You doing things to my body is a moral issue. Me doing things to my body is my right, not a moral issue.
    2. Deathbed treatment: Ditto. If I tell someone how I want to be treated on my deathbed, that’s my right. Neither you nor the state has any moral stake here.
    3. Non-ideological education: Ideological education is indoctrination, not teaching. I don’t intend to argue that the schools are free of bias and slant. I don’t need to. Adding bias and slant that leans one way is not the way to eliminate bias and slant that leans the other way. This is not Fox News we’re talking about. We’re talking about bringing the truth to our children, not producing entertainment under the guise of news. If someone wants to spend tax dollars teaching a religious doctrine like creationism in the public schools, let them do it in a comparative religion class. It has everything to do with faith and dogma and nothing to do with science and knowledge.
    4. Religious qualifications: The religious beliefs of someone running for office are none of my business, and that person should not make them my business. My religious beliefs, likewise, are none of their business. I’m interested in that person’s behavior, not what is rattling around in his or her head. Flaming atheists ought to be able to campaign as Republicans and flaming born-again fundamentalists ought to be able to campaign as Democrats. If they win or lose, let the voters decide, not the party honchos.
    5. Rise of the religious right: The people that I knew 40 years ago who were telling me the God made African-Americans to be inferior are now full=blown born-again ranters. The only reason they don’t spout such racist nonsense is because it is considered impolite to do so in their circles. (Not wrong, just impolite.) The impetus for the Republican Party’s abandonment of the principle’s of Lincoln and the other emancipators was the political clout they acquired by welcoming racist former Democrats beginning with the Dixiecats and continuing through the Wallace voters successfully pitched by Nixon and on until the current Republican incumbent. The rise of today’s private “Christian academies” was given impetus by racist parents, north and south, who wanted their children to continue to attend segregated all-white schools so they could be indoctrinated with the lies and racism of their parents. When it became patently obvious and unacceptable to operate such schools openly, they easily adopted the mantle of born-again religion, made all the easier since they believed God had made white people to be superior. Finally, organized churches (which don’t necessarily have anything at all to do with religious beliefs) did play a prominent role in the civil rights movement. Those churches were primarily black churches and northern white Protestant churches. By and large, southern white churches were on the wrong side.

  18. Kat Avatar

    I don’t care what you do to your body–if you can post abort yourself, go ahead. It is not your body anyone is concerned about–it’s about your killing innocent babies that I have a problem with.
    And there is no greater indoctrination than that of Marxist propaganda upon school kids. You can’t question Darwinism, you can’t question homosexuality, you just have to buy into what the Marxists tell you to believe. They don’t like religion so it must be stamped out.
    If my kid wants to freely speak about his/her religious beliefs it should not be a crime like the leftist fundamentalists have deemed it to be. The leftist nutjobs demand profs in many universities be leftwing nutjobs.
    And I hate to enlighten you, but many good Black folk are born again people. Don’t be such a lefty racist pig.

  19. thibaud Avatar
    thibaud

    ’twas God what put them Bobby Lee cigars in McLellan’s hands.

  20. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    “But there is a vast religious middle that would not qualify as religious by the definition of some, that may not be the most loyal churchgoers or churchgoers at all, that may hold opinions that are antithetical to the beliefs of this group… but they are religious Americans nonetheless. I am in that middle, that mainstream. But that’s the subject of another post another day.”
    PERHAPS this is Your truth, Jeff, except I don’t consider you to be in the middle at all. I don’t think you’re honest in this regard. I read your ‘sermon’ in your archives. Why is it that you keep DISSING the religious as you claim to be ‘religious’? You call those of religion every bad name in the book. Jihadists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BAAAAHHHHHHHHH! How dare you????
    More succinctly, where do you Get Off talking to Anyone about religion?
    I never go to any church of any kind. My personal divine is my God tree in my back yard.
    I repeat to you all that I have just said. If you *in fact* believe in any Divine, Show it, Say it and Don’t call it Jihad (!!!).
    2012.

  21. billg Avatar

    Kat:
    Stop making things up.
    Abortion isn’t about “killing innocent babies”. It is about women controlling their bodies. If you choose to believe that a cell that appears moments after conception is a human being, fine, that’s your belief (not a fact). Many other people disagree. You have every right to try to persuade them to agree with you; you have no right to use government to force them to behave as you like. That’s the key thing about the anti-abortion groups: They actively seek to use government to force others to behave in ways that meet their own moral approval. That way lies fascism. Groups supporting our right to control our own bodies are not trying to force anyone to do anything.
    Who’s talking about Marxism? Marxism is last century’s news. (But, sadly, still the buzzword fodder of radio talk show loons and corrupt fatcat preachers: “The Marxists are coming!! Send money!”) In any case, I never mentioned the word “Marxism”. The reality of evolution has nothing to do with Marxism. (Yes, it is a theory, but so is a great deal of modern physics, for example. Do you want to stop teaching physics and start lieing to kids about Creationist Physics, too?) Nor does homosexuality have anything to do with Marxism. And, again, in any case, I did not mention homosexuality.
    Your kid has every right to say what he or she wants. That doesn’t mean you have a right to force that teacher to say things you want him to say. Teachers should not replace education with indoctrination. That means no spouting left-wing or right-wing polemics. Marxism belongs in history classes, and creationism belongs in comparative religion classes, not in the science department.
    Yeah, I know lots of African-Americans are “born-again” That doesn’t have anything to do with the historical antecedents of many evangelical churches and private schools.
    Finally, if you think I’m a “leftist pig”, I’ll wear the label proudly because I want people to be free to think, speak and act as they see fit. It is clear, however, that you and your proto-fascist ilk simply want to force the rest of us to bow down and start thinking, speaking, and acting only in ways that meet your approval. Remember, if you’re willing to kill to stop abortion, and imprison someone who has had an abortion, you’re willing to kill or imprison people who attend the “wrong” church or read the “wrong” books” or say the “wrong” things.

  22. Ruth Avatar

    billg:
    Funny, on another site a similar ranter was calling liberals commies. Something in the water, I guess.
    Just curious. Do you pronounce billg as “bill-hard ‘g’” or “bilge”? Not to be badmouthing you, just wonder.

  23. Kat Avatar

    Don’t be such a drama queen. You and your ilk like to throw around the terms theocrats and right wing fundamentalists to describe anyone who dares have Christian beliefs. You and yours, like Stalin and other followers of Marx,believe that Christian people have no right to be involved in politics, if they can’t leave their values behind. You want to indoctrinate people to think as you want them to think–disagree and you are a theocrat or a fundamentalist.
    This jumping the shark for Jesus crap is an attempt to smear anyone who doesn’t worship Jarvisism, Jeff’s religion. I guess I’d rather jump the shark for Jesus than jump the jackass for Jeff. Christians want nothing less and nothing more than the rights leftists and secularists wish to deny them….right to hold public office, right to disagree, right to advocate, right to be the person you are without having to denounce your Christianity, and be branded a rightwing nutjob. There are fundamentalists on both sides of the spectrum and to suggest otherwise is dishonest, ridiculous,ignorant and a symptom of the hysterical hype of the left.

  24. billg Avatar

    Kat:
    You are continuing to lie and make things up.
    Have I said anything at all about anyone’s right to believe what they choose to believe? No, I have not. No, but you falsely accuse me of attacking Christian beliefs. That’s a lie.
    Have I said anything at all about my own religous beliefs? No, but you take the position that I am anti-Christian.
    You state that I am a follower of Marx, which is a lie. (Although I suspect you, like those fat drug-addled radio yappers, probably call everyone who isn’t in lockstep agreement with you a “Marxist”. From that point of view, the world is divided into only two kinds of people: Those blessed by God, otherwise known as the people who agree with me; and everyone else, known as Marxists.)
    You state I’ve asserted Christians have not right to be involved in politics. That’s a lie. In politics, it is behavior, not belief, that counts. If someone seeks a political objective I don’t like, I will exercise my rights to oppose them, period. It makes no difference to me if they claim they’re doing God’s will.
    No one is denying Christians any rights. (The legislatures are full of people who are Christians. Most of the people in this country are Christians, and always have been. Or, are you trying to say only born-again radical fundamentalist evangelicals can be Christian? Or that you, or soe elite group, have the right and ability to decide who is or who is not Christian?)
    No one is denying you the right to “right to hold public office, right to disagree, right to advocate, right to be the person you are without having to denounce your Christianity…”. Who’s doing all these evil things to you? Where’s the “must not be Christian” qualification for public office? Where’s the “Christians can’t disagree or advocate” law? Where’s the law that says you have to denounce your faith to be part of society?
    Faith is not the same as behavior. We are responsible for are behavior. Our faith is no one else’s business. That’s not necessarily true for behavior. You need to understand that just because someone doesn’t roll over and acquiesce to your own viewpoint about abortion, for example, doesn’t mean they are attacking your faith, restricting you rights, or that they are agents of some kind of Evil Left-Wing Marxist Front.
    I’m not impugning the sincerity of your faith or that of anyone else. But, I am clearly stating that there are political figures in this country who are manipulating evangelicals (and have for decades) to advance a socila and political agenda that I believe threatens the Constitution and our freedoms as Americans. That’s the behavior I oppose. I don’t care if they are Christians or Zoroastrians.

  25. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Eileen: I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Are you trying to be angry or sarcastic? I honestly cannot tell and I’m not sure I want to.

  26. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    billg, it is felt by many that the leftist-secularists who are manipulating [anti religious radicals] (and have for decades) to advance a social and political agenda that [we] believe threatens the Constitution and our freedoms as Americans” has been the situation for some time now. I know how much the Left has oppression envy but you guys have been in the driver seat for some time. All you have managed to do is insult and stigmatize people and the payback has been the Religious Right. You are going to pay for your arrogance and you’re going to make many of the rest of us pay as well.
    Religious people were not as loud and defensive of their faith in the past but Christians weren’t having their motives questioned and all public expressions of faith eradicated. The harder you push the faithful, the stronger they become. Ever studied Roman history? The Leftist drive to take away all personal meaning from our history and legal operations is leaving us with a sterile and cold system that no one can identify with. People aren’t likely to support what they cannot relate to. If anything will endanger our great experiment it will be apathy and feeling disconnected from the process. Alienating tens of millions so that hundreds of thousands can feel better is not very wise or very fair.
    There are plenty of religious people who would very much like to take away my personal rights and protections but I prefer to combat them in the open instead of try to persecute them and write them off as dogs unworthy of effort.

  27. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Jeff,
    Neither. I was expressing my frustration at the constant name calling of those of faith, by a man who says he is of faith. Jihad is such a loaded word. True jihadists are *real* enemies seeking our universal destruction, so to call Americans who possess certain Christian beliefs that brand of ‘enemy’ is pretty severe, and therefore offensive to me. I guess I object to labelling any group nutjobs or jihadists, unless they truly Are jihadists. Several months ago I expressed my distaste for the religious nutjob tag. Now it’s progressed to jihadists. I cannot think of a ‘worse’ moniker, so again I’m expressing my frustration.
    And if you’re a religious guy, why do you feel the need to paint a particular religious group in such derogatory terms? As a non-Christian and a non-fundamentalist, I nonetheless respect the faith and views of the born agains. Even though I often disagree with those views, I don’t consider them to be my enemy or crazy for believing as they do. Can’t you object to specific beliefs without calling people nutjobs or jihadists?

  28. billg Avatar

    Ptomley:
    I’d like to know what “left” it is that everyone is ranting about? And what is so secularist about it?
    As far as I know, the usual definition of a “leftist” is a Marxist, a Communist, or something similar. Very, very few of those folks exist in this country.
    The only thing that really distinguishes what you’re labelling an American Leftist is that they’re to the right of most Republicans. In other words, you’ve conflated “Republican” with “conservative” and “right wing” as well as “Democrat” with “liberal” and “left wing”.
    Of course, that’s primarily a propaganda device used by Republicans and talk radio yabbers who want to slur and libel Democrats with a label that is not well received in this country. It’s all those years of people ranting about “Godless Communists”. Of course, it’s all a lie.
    You seem to be arguing that Democrats are Marxists, that Democrats aren’t religious, that Democrats can’t be Christian and vice versa, that Democrats can’t be patriotic, etc. All lies, of course. (Or, let’s see some evidence.)
    And, what’s that nonsense about someone eradicating public expressions of faith? Who’s doing that? No one I know. The Constitution protects that. It also forbids using taxpayers money to support public expressions of faith. Or, is that what you’re really talking about? You want the government to use my tax money to support some kind of “public expression” of one special faith?
    Please look at my posts and show me where I’ve written anyone off “as dogs”. (Why waste your time countering statements I’ve not made??) If people enter the public political arena, they ought to expect to encounter opposition. Like I’ve repeatedly said, I don’t care what someone believes, but if they try to use the power of government to compel myself or anyone else to behave in a way that I believe is wrong, I’ll oppose them. That’s life in a democracy.
    That means, for example, that no matter how deeply someone believes that the law should outlaw abortion or gay marriage or anything else, if I disagree, I’ll oppose them. It isn’t their faith I oppose, it is the political behavior their faith motivates.
    Finally, it is a grievous insult to people who are not evangelicals or conservatives to assert or imply that our beliefs are not also motivated by deeply felt faith.

  29. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    You’re right you never actually used the word “dogs”. You totally wiped my debate out. Congratulations, even though that word splicing was what the Dems thought would get rid of Rumsfeld and Bush some time back and that really went far, didn’t it. I feel your bitterness. The point I’m trying to make with all the issues endangering your freedom, Christians aren’t really one of them. Only a long held prejudice against the churches would make you obsess so consistantly. You’re enemy is not millions of your fellow Americans. Your enemy is very much outside this nation in the failed or dying states of Europe and Asia. But fiddle on, Nero.

  30. Jack Tanner Avatar
    Jack Tanner

    bilge –
    Thanks for making my point. All you are ranting about is what you want and what you want is no more a right than the right to indoor plumbing. But good job in calling people who disagree with you racists. That’s always real persuasive.