GOP meltdown?

GOP meltdown?

: There’s increasing buzz among — what should I call them? nonleftist? — commentators that the Republican party is splitting over the Schiavo case.

I’m not sure the — what should I call them? progressive? — other side should start singing “Ding Dong, The Witch Is Dead” quite yet. Bush has Teflon. I don’t think Congress does, though.

Nonetheless, there are clear issues of inconsistency and ideology for the right: fights over whether religion trumps political philosophy.

And that should yield opportunities for Democrats — not by yelling at nya-nyaing at the the Republicans over this too-sensitive story but instead by finding new middleground that; I’m not seeing that yet but I hope I will. Or to put it another way: With this case and others, the Republicans do not stand on clear principle — or they can’t decide what principle to stand on. So the Democrats have the opportunity to stop being a party of complaint and start being a party of principle.

All that said, the opportunity to nya-nya is, of course, irresistable. As Kos says, inspired by a poll that shows 82 percent of Americans opposed Congressional interference in the Schiavo case:

This is turning into a disaster of epic proportions for the GOP. They thought they had the Dems wedged, and instead they have wedged themselves from the American public. Congress is being exposed as the cynical, power-mad, ethics-free zone that it has become under DeLay’s leadership.

On the melting GOP, Andrew Sullivan says:

We’re getting to the point when conservatism has become a political philosophy that believes that government – at the most distant level – has the right to intervene in almost anything to achieve the right solution. Today’s conservatism is becoming yesterday’s liberalism.

And he continues:

It’s been clear now for a while that the religious right controls the base of the Republican party, and that fiscal left-liberals control its spending policy. That’s how you develop a platform that supports massive increases in debt and amending the Constitution for religious right social policy objectives. But the Schiavo case is breaking new ground. For the religious right, states’ rights are only valid if they do not contradict religious teaching. So a state court’s ruling on, say, marriage rights or the right to die, or medical marijuana, must be over-ruled – either by the intervention of the federal Congress or by removing the authority of judges to rule in such cases, or by a Constitutional amendment….

Again, the demands of the religious right pre-empt constitutionalism, federalism, and even the integrity of the family. When conservatism means breaking up the civil bond between a man and his wife, you know it has ceased to be conservative. But we have known that for a long time now. Conservatism is a philosophy without a party in America any more. It has been hijacked by zealots and statists.

Glenn Reynolds quotes blogger Mark Daniels:

In taking jurisdiction over Terri Schiavo’s case from the state courts, where conservative Republicans would have previously said it belonged, and handing it to federal judges, the Republican Party arrogated to the federal government breathtaking new powers that would have made Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan wince.

On his MSNBC.com, Glenn looks at this from various angles, and says this is causing a split between Republicans and libertarians in the party.

Congress’s involvement in this case seems quite “unconservative” to me, at least if one believes in rules of general application….

Quite possibly. National security is the glue that has held Bush’s coalition together. The war isn’t over, and we haven’t won yet, but it’s going well — Austin Bay notes that it’s a war that we are winning — and this is allowing the divisions to show. All of the people I’ve quoted are on the right, and they’re all unhappy. One may argue that libertarians and small-government conservatives aren’t a big part of Bush’s coalition, but his victory wasn’t so huge that the Republicans can surrender very many votes and still expect to win. So this is a real threat.

And Joe Gandelman — who has a great roundup of posts on this here; he is the best rounder-upper around — sums it up this way:

The genie is now out of the bottle: this wing of the GOP is at variance with process conservatives and many libertarians ó and is defining the party as the party of theocracy.

In other words, if God is on your side, the voters might not be….

: LATER: Of course, this is hardly the only issue to split parties. Hardly. Iraq was hardly unanimous in either party. And I like this description of the political splits in indecency from this week’s Time cover story:

Granted, conservatives and liberals tend to be offended by different things. Conservatives tend to see a culture glorifying promiscuity and drug use. Liberals get more concerned about violence and degradation of women. The right sees the machinations of amoral Hollywood. The left sees soulless megabusinesses dropping their standards to court the coveted 18- to 34-year-old male demographic.

Here, too, there is a religous angle, by the way.

64 responses to “GOP meltdown?”

  1. MisterPundit Avatar

    I’m sure there are Republicans for and against the Schiavo intervention, just like there are Republicans for and agaisnt gay marriage, abortion, etc. but I think it’s wonderfully wishful thinking to believe that there is a “meltdown”. Libertarians and conservatives have always beena at each other in the Republican party to some degree. It’s one of those things.

  2. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    Well, it has yielded a great opportunity for the Democrats to forge more memos…
    It’s funny, though. Folks like Sullivan have no problem with politics in their private lives when a judge tells a state legislature to draft gay-marriage legislation the court will approve, such as it did in Massachusetts, or, to use a hardy perennial, the anuual ritual of the court banning of Nativity creches.
    Can we be honest here? The problem the left has is not with politics, but with the legislative branch of the government. And this is not simply the result of Republican majorities in recent years. Clinton, Carter, even LBJ all practiced legislation by litigation and bureaucratic regulation, and it’s the hallmark of the EU today.
    If anything good could have come from this, it would have been a serious investigation into the conduct of these dependency court judges and the community of lawyers and ìhealthcareî providers who circle them. Donít look for any ìprogressivesî to call for this, though. Judges are the new priests of the secular left, the unaccountable and unchallengable agents of an arbitrary and absolute (albeit flexibly defined) higher power.
    Look at Judge Greer’s connections. The dependency courts in the US are rife with that sort of incestuous corruption. I would imagine that Florida, with its large population of elderly retirees geographically estranged from their families, is particularly rich pickings for these parasites.
    And the problem is only going to get worse as childless boomers start lining up at the managed care wards.

  3. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    And as far as the libertarians go, well, it tells you how strong a reed they are when you look at the name of the party that Minnesota school shooter subscribed to: The Libertarian National Soc***ist Green Party. When someone like Pat Buchanan winds up making the same arguments as Noam Chomsky, you know libertarianism has circled around the far right of the body politic so far it’s smacking the Left in the ass.
    Jeff ó your questionable content filter won’t let me type Soc i a l ist. While I celebrate the sentiment, it sort of restricts the conversation.

  4. Ruth Avatar

    How the GOP got such a warped view of the legislative process that it thumped up an attack on the courts’ many years of due process is something of a mystery, but doesn’t the religious right still believe in heaven as a reward?
    Death is not terrible to a sincere believer, and certainly not a bad ending.
    To quote from St. Augustine’s reknowned prayer (Lord make me an instrument of Thy Will): “It is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.”

  5. Blackjack Avatar

    Jeff,
    I hit on this subject shortly after the election. In summary, I said the biggest danger to the GOP was the “God Squad” getting out of control. If that happens, an opportunity could exist.
    However, the Democrats need to make some changes in order to take advantage of it. And, giving more power and airtime to Howard Dean and Kos is not the winning formula.

  6. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    For the life of me, I have’t been able to understand what has taken the American public so long to realize that this is the direction that the GOP has been heading for the past 25 years. The religious right has been underwriting and running the GOP since the Reagan adm, which is the reason I hadn’t voted Republican since I voted for Ford in 1976. Until now, they’ve had the good sense to keep their heads down and keep themselves to the dark corners of the corridors in Washington.
    The religious right has made one very big mistake. They’ve misinterpreted the results from the last election. They honestly thought, through faulty polling, that the reason they won was because Americans in general were voting on “morality” issues, when the real reason was because of “security” issues, plus the fact that people just couldn’t warm up to Kerry.
    So the religious right reared it’s ugly head. Now it’s getting shot off.
    And not a day too soon.

  7. Patricia Avatar
    Patricia

    I’m one of those people Bush wooed by saying, “You may not like everything we do, but…” National security is the only reason I voted for him, because the Democrats have no credibility on that issue. Once that is resolved, or at least part of an ongoing process, the Reps will have to address the independents out there like me, a huge bloc that gave Bush victory.
    So I don’t think he should be worried about the base too much, but the disaffected liberals he temporarily won over. Huge liberal spending programs, immigration non-policy, faith-based everything (including poor Schiavo)–blech.

  8. Hubris Avatar

    your questionable content filter won’t let me type Soc i a l ist.
    That’s to keep out
    c i a l i s
    spam.
    The strains are real. If it wasn’t for national security issues, I don’t think you could induce me to be part of a coalition that includes the Family Research Council folks:
    Dark Obsession is a personal story about the inexorable grip of homosexual lust…

  9. Hubris Avatar

    That should be “if it weren’t for national security issues…”
    Damn that tricky subjunctive mood.

  10. Dennis Mosher Avatar
    Dennis Mosher

    Repellant demogogues like Michael Moore drove countless voters into the Republican camp.
    Repellant demogogues like Randall Terry are now busy driving them out.

  11. Tommy B Avatar

    Republicans erred on the side of life. This is a noble principle that remains consistent with the stance for law abiding citizens and victims. It is consistent with their stance for the death penalty and the Iraq War in which the costs are worth the rewards.
    Perhaps Congress has taken some blows, but it is in the effort to save an disabled woman’s life.
    Jeff, your premise that the liberals can benefit isn’t convincing. Liberals don’t have the same principles in life, law, and religion. They only serve as the opposition. In this case, liberals are the unprincipled opposition…. Kerry II. You really don’t know what they stand for except anti-Republican.

  12. Tommy B Avatar

    “Liberals get more concerned about violence and degradation of women.”
    Not really in Terry’s removal of her feeding tube.
    Not really when UN’s sex scandals and Saddam’s rape rooms are overlooked.

  13. beautifulatrocities Avatar

    The whole thing shows what libertarians like myself have long suspected, that many pro-lifers couldn’t give a rat’s ass about states rights &, like the liberals they criticize, are only too happy to use any federal means to impose their will on everyone else. And why should this surprise us? The moral imperative of the pro-life side isn’t going to back down over some legal abstraction like states’ rights.
    Let’s not hear Taranto or any other of the Yes-but crowd mention states rights ever again.
    Whether or not Hillary becomes President is entirely up the Republicans, & which direction they choose. This sort of meltdown is exactly what she’s counting on.

  14. carsonfire Avatar

    I have to agree that it’s wildly premature to start celebrating the end of Republican dominance… if anything, you see here Republican growing pains: a party out of power for a long time unused to being the majority party. It’s no small accident that the minority Democrats *still* act like they are the majority party.
    And I think much amateur speculation I’ve seen about the Schiavo case misses a very important shading: for Republicans, this effort comes thanks to a coalition of religious and *liberal* Republicans. Why would Reagan wince? Because he was conservative; this was the crusade of the more liberal “let’s do everything” politics of the Bush administration that more big/small government arguments.
    Liberalism in a classical sense, of course, not leftism, which has a different and far more extreme agenda… classical liberalism which really does not conflict with religion and the religious, liberalism which actually cares about the poor instead of exploiting them for political gain.
    Leftists who define themselves as liberals and hatehatehate Bush are already typing angry responses reminding me that Bush is the “most right wing yadda yadda yadda”, which is based not in reality but in emotion. *Reagan* was the most right wing yadda yadda yadda. Bush is an economic and security conservative, but he and his administration are most certainly socially liberal.
    And although I’m still not sure if they did the right thing in trying to interfere, I can’t imagine that too many Republicans or moderates will fault them for maybe overstepping their bounds in the midst of such a sad situation. The people who lost this fight are grieving; anybody who tries to slap them or punish them now only set themselves up to be public Snidely Whiplashes.

  15. carsonfire Avatar

    That liberalism I mentioned does conflict, by the way, with the libertarianism of someone like beautifulatrocities, who just posted. But to be starkly realistic for a moment, while JJ seems to think that losing the support of libertarians would be a blow to Republicans, how well do libertarians do in general elections? Libertarians are relatively extreme and inflexible themselves, and I do not believe that they are a major wellspring of support for anybody, really. Bush does better to continue to appeal to moderates with liberal and conservative tendencies. Pandering to libertarians would be more akin to Democrats pandering to the MoveOn.org crowd.

  16. Tommy B Avatar

    “this effort comes thanks to a coalition of religious and *liberal* Republicans”
    The votes of the *conservative* Democrats are overlooked with a nearly 50-50 split.
    This issue isn’t just about the so-called far right.
    In the end, this issue is a wash, but I think Republicans will benefit more than the liberals whose true callousness is revealed.

  17. Alex Avatar

    Do Kos, etc really believe the GOP is going to take a huge hit in 06 and 08 because they went to anti-federalist extremes to keep a disabled woman from being starved to death? This is the illustration of the impending “theocracy” people keep warning us about? This strikes me as wishful thinking of the highest order. If a CBS push poll helps convince you, more power to you.
    The Randall Terry analogy does not stand up. Terry wasn’t (and won’t be) sitting in a position of prominence at any RNC convention. Most people don’t know who he is, and won’t remember him in 06, much less 08. Moore was a polarizing national figure who was embraced and celebrated by the Democratic party.
    I disagree with what they are currently trying to do – Florida law dealt with this case and if it did so incorrectly, it needs to be addressed in Florida, not Washington. But I think it’s leftist fantasy that this is going to be the ticket to the Dems taking back congress or the white house. In fact, I bet they won’t even bring it up campaigning – how do you create a campaign commercial bragging about how your tireless efforts allowed a woman to starve to death?

  18. carsonfire Avatar

    Heh, one more thought (sorry!)… the “split” here I think seems exciting to Democrats because of their foolish belief in their caricature of Republicans as brain-dead robots who get their marching orders from Rush Limbaugh.
    Republicans actually just had an honest difference of opinion on a *very* difficult issue (I can’t even quite resolve the conflict internally!). This actually supports what I’ve seen in recent years, which is that the Republican party has come much farther than the Democratic party in becoming a party of debate and honest discussion, as contrasted to a party that has become masters of debate by ridicule, mockery, and anger (Kos Kos Kos!).

  19. Hovig Avatar

    Jeff,
    Thank you for pointing out in your update that “Iraq was hardly unanimous in either party.” Exactly. And if I’m not mistaken, people are starting to see that issue in retrospect quite differently than they did three or four years aog.
    My predicition for the Schiavo case is exactly the same. After all the facts are in, after more people educate themselves about the specifics of living wills, including the difference between something as drastic as “pulling the plug” and something like withholding food and water from an otherwise healthy body, after more people see Terry Schiavo dying slowly, day after day, live on TV as her mother goes slowly insane, and wonder why after two weeks a “dying” person isn’t actually dead yet, the GOP will be asked why they didn’t do more.
    Mark my words.

  20. carsonfire Avatar

    TommyB: Absolutely! I didn’t mean to discount the involvement of Democrats. I was only referring to Republican motivations, since the question JJ and other pundits are posing isn’t how this will hurt Democrats, but how it will hurt (we hope we hope we hope!) Republicans.

  21. Tony Avatar

    :Republicans erred on the side of life. This is a noble principle that remains consistent with the stance for law abiding citizens and victims. It is consistent with their stance for the death penalty and the Iraq War in which the costs are worth the rewards.
    To err on the side of life is noble, but it’s in no way consistent with any stance for the death penalty. The cost is a human life, however valuable or worthless we may believe that criminal to be. I’m at a loss, though, to understand the reward in execution. Is it a deterrent? That doesn’t hold up under scrutiny, so ignore that. Is it vengance? That doesn’t mesh with any Christ-like value I’ve known. I’m at a loss of ideas. What exactly is the reward? And how does that work under the pretext of “err on the side of life”?
    Also, Bush is an economic conservative? Since when?

  22. TJIT Avatar

    Jeff,
    What you are calling “progressive” Republicans is actually known as the “leave me the hell alone wing of the republican party”
    I am a resident of that wing of the party and have had to shake my head over the way Bush has blown up the size and scope of the federal government. For the inevitable person who will say government size has increased because of 9/11 I point out this sad fact. The Medicare prescription plan (biggest increase in entitlements in decades) is going to buy that crucial lifesaving drug vi**ra for medicare recipients using our tax dollars.

  23. TJIT Avatar

    The problem for me (leave me the hell alone republican) and for the Democrats (if they want to get disenchanted conservative voters) is that every policy that Bush is bad on from a conservative viewpoint the democrats are orders of magnitude worse. For example, the Democrats complained the prescription drug benefit was not big enough.
    The problem for the conservatives who try and use the Federal government to achieve their goals is that the federal bureaucracies who manage these programs will be staffed with liberals who are hostile to conservative goals.
    What the nation badly needs is for both parties to be consistent with their philosophies. And a media that points out how hypocritical both parties are.
    We need more conservatives, more liberals, and much fewer democrats and republicans.

  24. Tommy B Avatar

    Tony: The reward of the death penalty is not having the criminal around to do more damage. Plus, to value the dead victim’s life more than the criminal. If the victim is dead, so must the criminal.
    On deterence, there was a study that says there’s some deterence.
    I err on the side of innocent life. Guilty life can be extinguished; hopefully by starving, but that will be cruel and unusual. Terri Schiavo gotten worse treatment than the criminal with death penalty who enjoy a last supper.
    Economically, Bush is messing up, but I’m not sure if liberals are making the case for fiscal discipline either. They constanty cry about the lack of funding for No Child Behind Act, call for more nationalized health care, and recently refused Medicare cuts.

  25. carsonfire Avatar

    Tony: Also, Bush is an economic conservative? Since when?
    Tax cuts.
    You’re thinking of the spending programs that drive up the deficit that he gets behind, which is what makes him a social liberal.
    For more details on this, see TJIT’s posts directly following yours.
    Unlike TJIT, a conservative/liberal pug mix like myself sees value in this. We are a rich country that should maintain a structure that supports the less fortunate; at the same time, the rich should be encouraged to create more and more wealth. I don’t see those things as being at odds with each other, for without wealth there are no social programs.

  26. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    Don’t you realize that every time the religious right screams this woman was allowed “to starve to death”, it’s a direct insult to every person who has had to make the a similar decision? My family had to make this decision for my mother last year. It was gut-wrenching. I don’t appreciate the suggestion that we participated in her “murder”.

  27. Mike Avatar

    Linda, what would you call it then? I mean she is starving to death, actually I believe dehydration is what is going to eventually kill her.

  28. Johnny Lumber Avatar
    Johnny Lumber

    This is the problem that arises when people look at things as left/right, conservative/liberal.
    The better way to approach this is to see the political spectrum not as left/right but as those who want to control your life and those that don’t. the problem with conservatives is that they were all to happy to bring government to bear on your life as the left but it was for different reasons. The religious right are not conservatives in the traditional constitutional/ states rights sense …well let me amend that…they are when it suits them and aren’t when it doesn’t. They have no principles and will use whatever governmental power they can in order to bring about the solution they want. I say this as someone who is on the side of having the least governmental interference in my life. I saw myself as conservative at one time but no longer.

  29. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    Ah, Mike, life is so simple for you isn’t it? It’s always so black and white. You completely and conveniently overlook the fact that matters of life and death is mostly a whole bunch of gray.
    And so you infer that I participated in the murder of my mother?
    You’re an ass of the first degree!!

  30. paladin Avatar

    I think we may be due for a major political shakeup. The MoveOn.org/Michael Moore crowd is trying to take over the Dems, and it appears the cultural conservatives may be taking over the Republicans. Centrist Party, anyone?

  31. Mike Avatar

    Linda,
    Please get over yourself. I merely asked what you would call it? I have no idea what your mother went through, nor the torment involved in making the decision you did. I have seen my grandfather become ravaged with cancer and die a painful death, wishing that his struggle would end and knowing that when he died, it was for the better.
    I wouldn’t however come on a message board and leave a comment like yours with the expectations of not being challenged. Just because you claim to have gone through this, doesn’t make it the exact same situation and make you the utmost authority on these matters.

  32. Tony Avatar

    Tommy B: What’s being done to Terri Schiavo is wrong. Food and water is “life support”, yes, but not artificial life support. Removing a respirator is different from removing a feeding tube. I think we agree there. But to claim that the “reward of the death penalty is not having the criminal around to do more damage” doesn’t hold up for me. That argues for sufficient prison security to prevent that criminal from escaping.
    Yes, the innocent victim is more important than the criminal, but I also view society as more important than the criminal. The death penalty is murder. It doesn’t matter how despicable the executed is. “If the victim is dead, so must the criminal” strikes me as logic based on vengance. I don’t think that makes good public policy, as much as it might make people feel good. All killing contributes to a debasing of human life.
    carsonfire: Tax cuts don’t make him an economic conservative. Because he doesn’t back it up with even a hint of spending thrift, I see the tax cuts as pandering to economic conservatives. Where I think we disagree is on our definition of economic conservative and socially liberal. What Bush did with Medicare was almost a copy of Democratic social policy, but the economic impact has to be considered. If a Democrat offered similar tax cuts and spending increases, would he be called economically conservative? I doubt it.
    To me an economic conservative is someone who supports fiscal sanity. In my past I spent beyond my means and suffered for it for years. I dug myself out of it but learned an important lesson, something Bush doesn’t seem to grasp. Offering tax cuts while spending beyond our means is not sanity. Increasing our debt by $1 trillion every four years is not sustainable. We’re going to pay a price for that, most likely in INCREASED taxes and DECREASED spending. I don’t want that (the increased taxes). So I ask again, that’s an economic conservative? It isn’t just what Bush does, but what happens as an eventual, direct consequence of his policies.
    What Bush needs to do to win me over is to fix the tax code, eliminating the progressive (and oppressive) nature of our tax structure. Then he might could claim to be an economic conservative. I hope he can pull it off.

  33. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    Get over myself? It’s amazing what a little man you are!
    What was to be challenged? Because I point out that people who have had similar experiences feel insulted when it’s suggested that they’ve allowed a loved one to “starve to death”? Think about that phrase! It’s being used to as a provocation, to whip up emotional frenzy.
    But you’re right about the dehydration, kidney failure is what happened.

  34. Mike Avatar

    Linda, back to my original point, what would you call it then? She is going to die as a result of having her feeding tube removed, thus she will die from dehydration. What would want people to call it that would make it seem more humane?

  35. carsonfire Avatar

    Tony: Where I think we disagree is on our definition of economic conservative and socially liberal.
    Just so. I’m not necessarily defending his every policy; if anything, I’m just reinforcing TJIT’s view. A true conservative *is* going to be disappointed with much of Bush’s social spending. But he’d be even more disappointed if it was accompanied by raising taxes and a general disdain for the business world. That would be what we’d call President John Kerry.
    I just add, incidentally, that I’m not quite as conservative myself. In my view, Bush’s economics at least have been politically effective, in giving (pandering) to the right on taxes and giving (pandering) to the left on social spending. Result: the pure left calls him Hitler, and the pure right is disappointed. Neither gets everything they want.
    Moderates, mutts, whatever you would call us, are *not* as disappointed when the right or left doesn’t get exactly what they want. What seems like pandering to some seems like pursuit of the right policy to others.
    A more pure conservative or liberal economic policy might be more desirable to the right or left, but means nothing if the person pushing that policy can’t get elected or re-elected.

  36. Clyde Avatar

    Do you really believe those polls, though? Michelle Malkin ripped the crap out of the ABC poll by showing the slanted wording and inaccurate information contained in the question. When it comes to polling, it’s “garbage in, garbage out,” and the ABC poll was garbage. I don’t have any more trust for other liberal MSM organizations with axes to grind in their polls.

  37. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    How about “being allowed to die with dignity”.

  38. Angelos Avatar

    Clyde, when Michelle Malkin is your reference, you’re probably best off staying quiet.
    But if you want some real information, from people who know WAAAAAY more than you and I do about the case itself, read this.

  39. Brian Avatar

    In my opinion, Jeff is making a much better point here than a lot of the knee-jerk Republican defenders on this board are giving him credit for.
    I’m a 33-year old economic conservative with socially moderate views who has NEVER EVER, in 15 years of voting, voted for a Democrat for a major office. I voted for Bush in the fall, with a lot of consternation, mostly due to my complete mistrust of Kerry to handle the war on terror. But if the election were held again today, I would change my vote. And if Bush’s government continues on this religious right led crusade into everyone’s private lives (from baseball players to Schiavo) through 2006, there is no way I will vote for a Republican for Congress. So here’s one vote right here that Bush/DeLay have lost due to their blatant grasp for power and cowtowing to a religious minority that is not at all adhering to true “keep the government out of my life” conservatism.
    I’m suddenly aware that I might be voting for Hilary in 2008 unless a much more moderate Republican like Giuliani is running, and that’s a premise I wouldn’t even have remotely imagined just a couple years ago.

  40. Robert Speirs Avatar

    The state/federal argument has been moot since the passage of the federal Americans with Disabilities Act, under W’s father, which asserted the absolute dominance of the federal government over state law in the field of disability “rights”. It didn’t explain how becoming disabled gives people extra and special rights, but I didn’t really think it would. It certainly asserts that the federals will defend their important rights, though, like, oh, say, living. I heard on the news that Terri’s parents lawyers are going to use this law in their next attempt to get a judge to save Terri’s life, such as it is. I’m sure all you Dems who want the Feds to stop interfering with state laws on death and dying fought ferociously against the ADA. Didn’t you?

  41. Alex Avatar

    The Repubs pushed through a lousy law to try and force the courts to do what they wanted. The courts didn’t go for it. Schiavo will die within the next couple weeks (in how much pain and discomfort is up for debate) and this issue will fade back into the background, unless some other similar case arises.
    When 2008 rolls around, this will most likely be an afterthought – Repubs might bring it up when talking to pro life crowds (we tried our best to save that poor woman, but those dastardly judges stopped us). Democrats won’t bring it up at all. And even among us political geeks, there will certainly be a more compelling issue to separate the candidates than this. It may seem like a deal breaker today, and it may have been a huge deal if this had come to a head 6-8 months ago. By 2008, however, I don’t think it will affect many voters.
    Also – Bush isn’t running anymore. Cheney and Rice aren’t running (so they say). Unless Frist or Santorum get the nomination (highly unlikely, unless I am the one engaging in wishful thinking) I don’t see how this can be a liability for the eventual candidate. There will be a whole new slate of Swift Boat Vets and National Guard Memos for us to obsess over instead.
    I think the Repubs pushing this have behaved badly on balance, but this “Radical Right Theocracy” stuff (I’m seeing a little here and a lot elsewhere) is nonsense. What of substance has Bush delivered to the all powerful Jerry Falwell crowd? A failed law in this case? Rhetoric (but no results) on “protection of marriage”? Stopping federal funding of new fetal stem cell lines? Pardon me if I don’t start preparing for next Inquisition.

  42. TJIT Avatar

    carsonfire,
    You said “We are a rich country that should maintain a structure that supports the less fortunate”.
    I don’t object to helping those who really need help. However, I don’t see how taking money from generally less well off people (those paying medicare payrol taxes) and giving that money to the generally more well off (retired people receving the medicare prescription benefit) so the more well off can buy a recreational drug (vi*gra) helps the less well off improve their life.
    Many programs are promoted using the idea that will help “the less fortunate” in the end most devolve into another middle class entitlement.

  43. leah Avatar

    Killing a woman who wasn’t dying doesn’t enhance the political possibilities for the Democrats. However, they are unaware of that. Push polls to the contrary, taking a principled stand for the life of an innocent human being instead of an “endangered species” of plant or animal hasn’t gone unnoticed. Nine members of the Black Caucus voted with the Republicans on congressional intervention. Starving and dehydrating a woman with attentive and devoted parents, at the behest of her compromised “husband” won’t win the confidence of voters. Hide and watch in ’06. It’s STILL the values, stupid.

  44. Matthew Goggins Avatar

    Jeff,
    I have a lot of respect for you, but your general take on the politics of this is way off the mark.
    If politicians do something drastic in an emergency situation, nobody is going to end up holding it against them except people who are already against them.
    That’s why the Republicans will not lose any support over this.
    What is really going to come out of this tragedy is a deepened revulsion against some judges and the arbitrary power of courts. Some of this revulsion will be amply justified, but even if you believe none of it is justified, the revulsion has reached a critical mass and will not disappear anytime soon.
    This backlash against the judiciary is bound to hurt the Democrats on balance, and help the Republicans. I don’t celebrate this. I deeply wish the courts had chosen a different course, but they didn’t, and this is what is going to happen.

  45. mezzrow Avatar

    The degree to which this becomes an electoral issue is, I think, keyed by the fact that this is profoundly uncomfortable stuff to discuss and think about. As in abortion, we are discussing the very stuff of life and death. In addition, we are putting a spotlight on individuals placed in heartbreaking situations with cruel decisions to make no matter what they decide to do. The only reason this has become a national tragedy is the conflict between parents and spouse over what to do. What is life – what is God – what’s it all for. If only we could really answer 42, and say that’s that.
    My own feeling is that whoever uses this tragedy and the grandstanding of our legislative class (imagine!!) as a club electorally will suffer, because they will be associated with the pain each individual feels when confronting these harsh realities of life. Look at the person you love most – think of this poor woman as them. Do you really need the government (or the church) telling you in this situation what you have to do??
    Libertarian is a crappy word for “leave me alone” when it comes to this. Pick this slice of agony up – on either side – and wave it around in a couple of years and see if he who wields this banner doesn’t carry the stink more than those who are accused of being wrong. At least that’s my opinion.

  46. Harry O Avatar

    While there may be disagreements within the Republican Party as to the advisability of the action by Congress, predicting the split of the party over Terri Schiavo is wishful thinking.
    I am not a religious person and do not normally attend church. Nevertheless, I find aspects of this case very troubling. I do not feel that she has received anywhere near the level of due process we accord to murderers, etc. That fellow Republicans disagree with me does not turn me against them or the party.
    Meanwhile, how can anyone benefit by being on the same side as those who carry signs celebrating her death as a defeat for President Bush? Democrats are standing on principals? When have states’ rights or the sanctity of marriage ever been on the Democrats’ agenda? Defending the right of a husband to order his wife’s death? A husband who has taken questionable actions and has questionable motives?
    Liberals and the Left are celebrating the death of an innocent as a defeat of the Right. Believe it or not, this will not rebound to their credit.

  47. John Avatar

    Leah,
    You nailed it.

  48. SloppyDawg Avatar

    Killing a woman who wasn’t dying doesn’t enhance the political possibilities for the Democrats.
    Maybe not, but it’s certainly not helping the Republicans. When 80% of the country believes the GOP is politically motivated on this issue, when Dubya’s favorables drop nearly 10% because of it, and when well-respected conservative pundits like Glenn Reynolds say there’s trouble, there’s trouble.

  49. carsonfire Avatar

    TJIT, no worries… I didn’t mean to start another debating point. My roommate is far closer to your way of thinking on social spending, yet we still get along just fine. ;)
    In my way of thinking, it’s just a matter of practicality, anyway. There’s always a better way to help poor people and prevent poverty. The creation of wealth and jobs alone is the best way. The current safety net, on the other hand, spends a lot of money, but isn’t exactly a spectacular sight to behold. But the system we have now is the system we have now, and it’s not going to change overnight. I’ll bet that we were both pleased with welfare reform, for instance: less expenditure and more results.
    That is the twain that meets for us better than it does for you and the left or me and the left. The thing to do now is to get ready to either fight for an even more conservative president in ’08, or hold the feet to the fire of a Republican president who is too liberal/moderate (and pray that uberliberal trojan conservative horse Hillary Clinton isn’t fooling as many people as she seems to be fooling)

  50. tonynoboloney Avatar
    tonynoboloney

    agree with john,
    Leah,
    you nailed it.

  51. Gary B. Avatar

    Yeah we know just how reliable those polls are by how wrong they turned out to be on the election last year don’t we? You believed them then and you believe them now, so we’ll see who ends up being dissapointed soon enough. I welcome it.
    Why did Terry’s husband wait 7 years to tell someone what she supposedly told him if that if it was true? He sure wasn’t allowing the medical staff to do everything they could to help her during that time. He didn’t allow the physical therapists to work with her either. And he’s actually prevented Terry’s family members from being allowed to visit her even though there’s no indication that they were ever trying to harm her. I guess that was part of her wish too, huh? That if he gets pissed off at her parents he should prevent them from trying to visit and care for her. Included in the wish also was for him to move in with another woman and have children while only spending any lawsuit settlement on other lawyers fee’s who are working toward ending her life rather than protecting it or helping her recover?
    Well my mother got shot in the head and by the time we got to the hospital she was on life support. She didn’t open her eyes or move any parts of her body to show any signs of life whatsoever. She couldn’t breath on her own either but as long as we kept her hooked up to the machines she was alive in what the doctors described as a vegetable state. That’s not the condition that Terry is in so how can they say she’s a vegetable? Has the true definition really evolved that far in the last 30 years?
    I doubt it. And I also don’t think that by trying to save Terry’s life is in anyway an insult to my family for having to make the tough decision to take my mother off of life support and allow her to die. The circumstances were not and are not the same.

  52. HA Avatar

    Jeff,
    According to the Dems, this whole Schiavo issue is nothing more than cynical, shameless posturing and opportunism on the part of the GOP who are exploiting the misery of the Schiavo family for political gain. If that is true, why the schism? Doesn’t the existence of a schism PROVE that some at least are acting out of principle to the degree that they are willing to suffer political consequences?
    I hope that the Republicans stand on principle even if they suffer political consquences. It is tyrannical barbarism for a lone judge to arbitrarily order a woman starved to death based on the hearsay testimony of a potentially self-interested husband that this is what she would have wanted in spite of contrary testimony from ALL her immediate BLOOD kin.

  53. HA Avatar

    OK, all you libertarians out there whining about government intervention into private affairs. Here is a lesson in civics 101. There are three branches of government – executive, legislative and judicial. The judicial branch of government is – stay with me because I know this is complex – a branch of government. Get it? So like it or not, the government did NOT get involved in this process when Congress intervened.
    Since when did libertarians become fans of hearsay evidence? Do libertarians REALLY want government officials to be given the power to make life and death decisions over an individual based soley on hearsay evidence?
    If renegade judges were making decisions on property rights or gun rights based soley on hearsay evidence, libertarians would be in revolt. What is different about this case?
    Let’s consider a hypothetical example. Suppose you owned a handgun that was stolen and used to commit a murder. Now suppose that someone stepped forward and claimed that they heard that you said you had SOLD the gun to the murderer rather than it being stolen. Using your new belief in hearsay testimony, some judge could convict you of being an accessory to murder. Is this really what you want?

  54. HA Avatar

    BTW, my prior hypothetical example turns out to be very similar to a real-life murder case. Here is an example of a man convicted of murder and sentenced to death based on the self-serving hearsay testimony of a co-defendant whose life was spared based on that very same hearsay testimony. The co-defendant was NOT subject to cross-examination because he pleaded the fifth.
    http://www.apa.org/monitor/may99/jn.html
    Is this the rule of law or the arbitrary rule of man? I say this is the arbitrary rule of man. Any libertarian should be profoundly disturbed by the acceptance of self-serving hearsay testimony in any case, including the Schiavo case.

  55. ralphfurley Avatar

    The Left’s glee over this “meltdown” is odd. The ABC poll fueled their fire. Oops is Mary Mapes writing memos again? What GOP schism? Senate passed bill by voice vote, House got 3 GOPers to vote NO and Bush signed it. People will remember that a woman was starved to death and the judges allowed it to happen. Most people dont care about federal jursidiction issues and due process. They will remember the judiciary when the fight over Bush’s nominees heats up in a few weeks.

  56. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    Hubris ó “That’s to keep out c i a l i s spam.”
    I knew that, but thanks. And I’m not surprised. Just like soc i a l i st economies need a capitalist component or neighbor to prop them up, it’s no shock to learn soc*****ts can’t keep up without a little artificial stiffening…
    “If your balance of trade surplus persists for more than four hours, consult a physician…”

  57. gawdamman Avatar
    gawdamman

    Now I can’t stand both the democrats and the republicans…….both sides better get it together or a 3rd party is going to start attracting free thinkers in droves. Unfortunately, the greens and libertarian parties have their collective heads in their……..

  58. John Thacker Avatar
    John Thacker

    I do slightly wonder exactly how much mileage the Democrats are supposed to get out of this when the bill passed in the Senate by unanimous consent, and was written partially by Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA), the leading go-to guy for disability issues in the Democratic Party.

  59. Richard Avatar

    Ha-
    Here’s a Civics 101 lesson for YOU: Family matters are decided in STATE courts. That process went through its stages. The Republicans (who claim to be for STATES rights) got the FEDERAL government involved. THAT is the most disturbing part of this.

  60. HA Avatar

    Richard,
    This isn’t just a family matter, as if Terri was her spouse’s property. This is a right to life issue, and government – including the FEDERAL government – exists first and foremost to protect our right to life.
    We have a situation where Terri is unable to express her own wishes about her life, so we are forced to rely on her family to discern her wishes. Her family is in dispute about her wishes. Her husband says she would have wanted to die, and ALL her blood kin say she would have wanted to live.
    The judge’s ruling about Terri’s wishes was completely arbitrary and that should terrify any libertarian. If we knew with certainty Terri’s wishes, I would want them carried out. I would even be in favor of physician assisted suicide in this. That would be far more preferrable to starving her to death which is simply barbaric. I’m no right to life zealot. I also believe in the right to die. But I believe that in this case, we must err on the side of life because her blood kin still see value in her life.
    But the simple truth is that we do not know Terri’s wishes and any outsider claiming that they do know Terri’s wishes is full of shit.

  61. Krusty Krab Avatar
    Krusty Krab

    Some well thought out comments on this very tragic issue.
    I agree it is a divisive issue, but not necessarily one that anybody is going to make any political capital from. Listening to NPR the other day, I heard rabbi disagree with rabbi (like that’s anything new, anyhow) and Catholic priest disagree with Catholic priest. The bottom line (to me) is Terri wasn’t in a vegetative state, other than being legally declared so. She also wasn’t in a normal state of consciousness and had no hope of ever returning to one.
    I think that Michael Shiavo should have every right to have her euthanized under these circumstances, but that’s illegal in Florida, now isn’t it?
    I would say that, were she properly diagnosed, what they are doing to her would be illegal in Florida. So instead, Michael had to dance around the reality that Terri’s condition was quite unique to get her labeled vegetative.
    And this tragedy finally plays out with the utter horror of starving and dehydrating Terri under her body finally gives out. The alternative, keeping her alive and letting neurologists use her as a guinea pig for science, is equally horrific.
    Am I the only one who remembers the Metallica song “One”? Check out the lyrics and the video if you can find it. Pretty apropos to this awful state of affairs.
    Also, I agree with Powerline that there is probably a coming unraveling of the conservative-liberatarian coalition, but I doubt this is it. In a few weeks, people will be much more bummed out about the missed hockey season, and equally concerned about the frizzling of the NFL negotiations.

  62. HA Avatar

    Krusty Krab,
    missed hockey season
    Hockey? What’s that? LOL.