Google nazis

Google nazis

: I honestly do not understand those who don’t understand the problem with GoogleNews including a nazi site in GoogleNews. Michael Zimmer writes:

The whole point of GoogleNews is that you have a wide variety of sources. You can read, filter, process, absorb what you want, and ignore the rest. A plurality of voices, perspectives and, yes, even biases is a positive feature of web-based news aggregation. Readers might actually learn something about the world (and themselves!) by reading about how people they don’t agree with (including anarchists, socialists, leftys, communists, etc) see an issue.

Here’s the comment I left there (pardon the caps for emphasis; it’s easier than bold in a comments box):

I honestly don’t understand how you don’t understand this: An EDITOR (or someone fufilling that function) at GoogleNews makes a SELECTION of sites to include in a NEWS service (read: JOURNALISM) and selects a NAZI site that actively goes on about hating people who are not white and Christian. This is not Google itself, which should vacuum up everything. This is a NEWS site. Is there no definition of news at all? Or more to the point, is there no definition of decency? Would you include Ku Klux Klan news? Would you include North American Man Boy Love Association news? These are choices and there are responsible and irresponsible choices.

So we start getting to the definition of news: not in a sense of certification (official news) but in a sense of value (worth knowing).

Is it worth knowing what nazis think is news? No, it is not. In no universe.

On the other hand, is it worth knowing what al Qaeda thinks is news? They, too, are hateful, murdering nut jobs. Well, I could see a debate there because there is value in knowing what this enemy says.

But there are questions about the line you draw — and GoogleNews cannot avoid that because it is making selections — and also about presentation: When you present hate sites as news you redefine news.

I stand by my contention that including a nazi site is irresponsible.

Meanwhile, BlogHerald thinks this is about blogger jealousy: They included nazis but they didn’t include blogs. No, if they never included a single blog, they certainly should not include nazis.

Neverdock thinks it’s still about GoogleNews liberal bias. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I’d think that somebody who thinks he’s funny at GoogleNews is saying to those who complain there aren’t enough conservative sites in the service: ‘OK, here is a right-wing site: a nazi site.’ But I’m not a conspiracy theorist. And I think that the right/left bias is a different and still-fascinating issue because it assumes you can catalogue right v. left and I say that’s a helluva lot more difficult than it sounds.

Oh, and if Agence France Presse wanted to pull its content out of GoogleNews wouldn’t a better, more Euro-PC rationale have been that they didn’t want to be associated with nazis?

: LATER: Michael Zimmer says in the comments that we should be clear that earlier in his post he said this: “I’m not here to defend or support the actual content of these various news sites….” Yes, to be clear, I’m not saying that Michael is defending nazi sites: He’s questioning my questioning of their inclusion and I’m questioning him back … and no, I’m not trying to be cute in the way I said that; believe it or not, I’m trying to be clear.

29 responses to “Google nazis”

  1. Jeff Hess Avatar

    Shalom Jeff,
    I was with you until you included al Qaeda in the mix. If a news service includes them, and yes I recognize that their views are much more relevelant in terms of news, then you’ve entered the slippery slope.
    Are neo-Nazi wannabees low-life slime? Of course. Did they have a right to march in Skokie, Illinois? Yes. Does Google have a right to include them in its news mix? Yes. Should readers know from where their news comes? Always.
    I’m with Lyle Dennison on the 1st Amendment. We do have a right to scream fire in a crowded theatre.
    B’shalom,
    Jeff Hess

  2. Karl Avatar

    I don’t know about Google News – can’t think about it right now really – since Google has apparently banned Philly Future from it’s index. You can read the details here.
    I have no idea how to get PF indexed by them again. I have followed all the rules as far as I can tell.
    If there is anyone in this audience that can help – please do.

  3. Ruth Avatar

    Actually, on the premise that exposure to all knowledge is to be desired, I disagree that Nazi news should be excluded. I try to read news from those who disagree with me and those like me, so that I won’t cut myself off from those points of view.
    If more of us read the hatred and exaggerations of Nazis, as we do read them from al-Qaeda and other hate-filled organizations, we might be more aware of the negatives involved. And act more sensibly in the interests of reason and the reasonable.

  4. sbw Avatar

    Jeff: On the other hand, is it worth knowing what al Qaeda thinks is news?
    What they cover is welcome in a news report, but do you trust them to report the news?
    I address the guiding concept in Concentric Circles. Individuals, Journalists, and Society operate using similar processes. Where they don’t, don’t consider what they offer as news.

  5. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    The question is “where do you draw the line?”
    Is it with sites that self-identify as “nazi?” Does one exclude sites that call themselves “Christian Identity” that feature the same kind of racist information? Does one exclude the right-wing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation that specialize in providing “intellectual” justification for racial extremists.
    If google gets rid of “nazi.org”, does it then also have to exclude “wsws.org” which presents news from a social*st perspective?
    In reality, all we are talking about here is a symbolic gesture. Getting a self-identified “nazi” news site off of Google doesn’t make it disappear. And including a “nazi” news site doesn’t make it legitimate.

  6. Danny Taggart Avatar

    Why are you focusing so much on this one Nazi site? How about the fact that GoogleNews includes xinhua and China Daily, which are the media of a present-day brutal and murderous regime?

  7. Scott Ferguson Avatar

    Can a news outlet have a “bias” if all the articles are selected mechanically?
    If you reset the algorithm for selecting articles (by adjusting news streams, etc.) are you “removing the bias” or just “biasing the bias”?
    Who said that if there was no God, man would need to create him? With Google News, the same could be said about an Editor.

  8. Michael Zimmer Avatar

    Scott – yes, bias can exist in algorithm itself. See my post for discussion of that.

  9. Michael Zimmer Avatar

    Jeff: thanks for the quote, but you left out the preceding sentence from my post: “I’m not here to defend or support the actual content of these various news sites…”
    I’m not trying to debate the particular inclusion of a particular site: What I’m arguing is that plurality of voices is better than the opposite, as other commenters here have supported as well.

  10. Michael Zimmer Avatar

    Jeff: how would you suggest GoogleNews define “news”? Can you offer a framework they should use when determining what sites to include in their aggregation? And if you want blogs to be included, how should they decide which blogs to include?

  11. Kat Avatar

    No one says these moonbat crazies aren’t entitled to their views, like Jihad Unspun, etc.
    One wonders why any sane people would legitimize these crackpots and call their hatemongering, News.

  12. Drew Avatar

    Actually, there’s been talking of GoogleNews skewing to the right.
    A diversity of views means a diversity of views – if there’s a racist site or two in amongst the 4,499 others, then so be it, who’s hurt by that? I’m sure there are a lot of objectionable things indexed by Google News, that doesn’t mean we should go through and weed it all out. “Let the cream rise to the top,” remember?
    I don’t think any crackpot site should be included on Google News, but I also think that going on a hunt for such a vaguely defined target as “questionable” news sites is foolhardy and completely against the idea of transparency and openness in media. Again: who decides what’s questionable? And don’t we already have the ability to talk back to Google News via their site?
    A better solution would be just to add LGF and other blogs to the site. Toss it all in the pot and see what shakes out: let the people decide. If Google has some sort of ranking system that shows them which links are clicked (as I suspect they do, which is why the Times and other reputable sources are repeatedly on the front page), the crap will sink further and further to the bottom. Problem solved.

  13. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    sbw: i think that’s a good construction.

  14. Michael Zimmer Avatar

    Yes, Drew. It would be interesting to have Google institute an Amazon-like “was this news report helpul to you” kind of peer rating system.

  15. MisterPundit Avatar

    I am completely with you on this Jeff. Extremism can’t be given the type of credibility an global platform that comes with being included as a news source for Google News. It’s absolutely idiotic.
    Google News apparently also sources from a site called Jihad Unspun that openly advocates Jihad against the US and sings the praises of Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. It’s mind-boggling how Google can allow hatred like this to grow.

  16. MisterPundit Avatar

    I try to read news from those who disagree with me and those like me, so that I won’t cut myself off from those points of view.
    There is a big difference between “news” sourced from Nazis, and news about Nazis.

  17. James Avatar

    Blahbity-blah, diversity of viewpoints – yes, let people figure out what’s worthwhile on their own. Didn’t Milton say that a few years back?

  18. Matt the Hat Avatar

    This could be a good thing, as long as it’s identified as Nazi News. A lot of people share those hateful beliefs, but view nazis as evil. If they are exposed to those beliefs as nazi beliefs then maybe they will realize that they are wrong.

  19. Ruth Avatar

    MisterPundit:
    Didn’t I say ‘from’ – just as, though I think he’s wrongheaded, I listen to the president. I also listen to news about him, but isn’t it unfair if I don’t listen occasionally to the actual words he spoke?

  20. Patricia Avatar
    Patricia

    I think many “news” sites should be banned. But I don’t understand how this POV jibes with your position on complete freedom for porn in media. In a sense, Google is just like Stern, selecting and organizing contenvt for its program just like him.

  21. Scott Ferguson Avatar

    Patricia says…

    I think many “news” sites should be banned.

    Oh geez. To hell with this silly-ass First Amendment then.

  22. Robi Ganguly Avatar

    Hey Jeff, love your blog and normally agree with what you’re saying, but you seem to be assuming that Google has an editor for Google News. I agree that it’s disturbing what shows up in there and that it’s divergent with their heavily manual AdWords and country-focused policies, but I believe that they take the approach that Google News is just an aggregator of news sites. It’s “cool” technology that is supposed to work on its only stated biases being towards an increased inclusion of international news sources.

  23. Kat Avatar

    If that were true, and google were an aggregator of news sites,why does Google deny certain sites while welcoming Nazi ones with open arms? I think Instapundit and LGF are great sites. I read them every day regardless of what Google googles. But shooters of school kids and teachers in Minnesota loved Nazi.org, I guess.

  24. John Brendel Avatar
    John Brendel

    As a private corporation, Google certainly has the right to include or exclude whichever sites it chooses. But I do hope they won’t exclude Nazi sites, or sites which some people characterize as “Nazi,” which is often not the same thing.
    Google is not being consistent or fair if they exclude sites espousing white nationalism, white pride, separation of diferent races, etc. but allow sites that represent or support authoritarian government, oppose individual freedom, or advance the supremacy of any group of people.
    Examples are sites operated by Communist governments or organizations, Islamic groups, and so-called “civil rights” or “anti-defamation” groups that work to censor and intimidate their opponents – like the Jewish-supremacist ADL.

  25. David Hauslaib Avatar

    For a country that claims to want everyone’s voice to be heard, the stance to remove the Nazi news source from Google News is, by definition, anti-democratic.
    Google News is phenomenal in that it gives even small news agencies a shot at being included with the big boys, but all of them come with their own biases. Certainly the Nazi site puts its bias out there, but determining which news outlets get to be heard should be up to the reader – that’s Google News’ huge appeal, especially now that it’s becoming more customizable.
    As for including al Qaeda but not the Nazis because the former is the “enemy,” the latter is also a threat to the American “way of life.” Simply because they push a more transparent agenda than Fox News or the New York Times should not weigh against them. Perhaps Google News should tag sources according to their leanings (i.e. liberal, hate monger, PR agency), but again that would give them editorial control, and that’s not why Google started the service.
    As with any news source, the reader should perform her own research to determine the source’s biases. And if we can’t give expect her to take that responsibility, we should block her from Google News in the first place.
    Democratic news, where sources and information can be determined by popular opinion, is a wonderful thing. But at least give readers the choice before you ax distinct voices one by one.
    (Perhaps I should note that Jossip is included in Google News.)

  26. ProudLiberal Avatar
    ProudLiberal

    My take on what the democrats should do now has been that they should be the party of truth – and this will be secular truth. It might not win elections in the short run, but I would hope that it would in the long run.
    Too many religious people in America are speaking for God, i.e., claiming that their view is God’s view. These claims are false, whether the sayer is 100% an opportunistic manipulator or actually believes what he says.
    I think that democrats should make an issue of this; state forcefully and clearly that too many people are claiming that God supports their political viewpoint. The Schaivo case is certainly a good platform to launch from.
    Democrats should, as well, engage creationism head on. It’s probably a long term argument, but creationism is wrong, period. As the party of truth democrats should take this on, with the aim of educating faith-based Americans on secular reality. In the long run I hope we’d have a more enlightened population.
    The opportunity is here for democrats to make themselves the party of truth. I hope they see it.

  27. Kat Avatar

    I’m a proud Republican and the last thing I want is to be educated in atheism or to be enlightened like a democrat–if that’s enlightenment, then please spare me. To even suggest that you are the party of truth makes me want to puke and see you as an intolerant boob–your way or the highway. My truth is not your truth–my truth is in Jesus.

  28. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    My truth is not your truth–my truth is in Jesus.
    that’s nice. But “your truth” is not “truth”, which is based on observable phenomenon. Civilization exists because everyone (except for the completely delusional) can observe the same phenomenon, agree on the nature of that phenenomenon, and draw the same conclusions about that phenonemon. That is the essence of “objectivity”.
    Your denial of truth as an objective phenomenon, and your insistance that everyone rely upon non-objective truths, makes you no different from the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, who followed their own versions of “truth through faith”.

  29. Kat Avatar

    I don’t give a hoot in hell if you believe as I do, I just refuse to be talibanized by the likes of you into your “demoratic beliefs”. Hitler burned the Bible once and tried replacing it with secularism. If that’s your idea of objectivity then God help us all. It is you who are trying to force your beliefs on me, I just want the right to believe as I do. But because you are no defferent than Osama, your ‘god’, you want to outlaw my beliefs and kill the infidels. Remember what observable phenomenom occurred under Hitler, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Stalin,and Enver Hoxha—all whom wanted to educate the world in secularism.