The Angry Party

The Angry Party

: When Howard Dean was running for President, I said that his real goals were not just to take over the White House but also to take over the Democratic Party with his army of young turks and the power of citizens’ media and the lure of. Well, he failed at the first, but he’s about to succeed at the second.

When Dean is elected by acclamation as the new head of the Democratic National Committee, I won’t be one of the Democrats jumping with apparent joy. Yes, I’ve made cracks about the wisdom of choosing a loser to head the party. And, no, I did not support Dean as a presidential candidate. And, sure, I’ll be delighted to see him try to shake up the power structure of campaign fundraising with his army of young turks and aggregated fortune in $25 contributions and experience in using the tools of citizens’ media to change the world. None of that is my problem.

My fear is that the takeover by Dean and the Deaniacs cements our unfortunate position as The Angry Party.

It’s not just that Dean was the angry candidate — which, I said then, was my biggest problem with him as a candidate — and that the Deaniacs were the angry young people. It’s that the left has turned into the mad side. Our states shouldn’t be painted in cool blue but in fiery red.

When I read blogs from the left or read comments here and elsewhere from that side (and remember that I manage to piss off both sides and so I have a basis of comparison), I hear a predominance of two tones when there is disagreement: the rage of a rabid dog or the moan of a resigned Eeyore. The blogs and commenters from the right — who, lord knows, can be just as venemous — sound, nonetheless, a bit calmer, more in control, more mature, even. Oddly, I don’t see the exact same pattern in TV punditry: The O’Reilly’s are still spitting angry. And perhaps the left is still trying to emulate that under the theory that, hey, it worked for the other side: It got them elected.

But there are three problems with this:

First, we set ourselves up as the party in permanent opposition: Our role is to be angry with the guys in power rather than saying what we’d do if when are in in power.

And that leads to the second problem: We’re against more than we’re for. Iraq: Nothing good ever happens. (See Tom Friedman — a Democrat of my ilk — this morning on four things in Iraq Democrats should be excited about). Social Security: Some even say there’s no problem and nothing to do. These are both problems that need fixes; we’ve already heard the complaints. That’s not a way to win elections.

Then there’s the third problem: It’s no fun hanging out with angry people. I’m sick of certain people people saying I’m not their kind of Democrat; when did we become the party of exclusion? During the recent kerfluffle between Kos and Zephyr Teachout, we were reminded of the bile of the Deaniacs. This is why they didn’t win Iowa; it wasn’t the hats, folks, it was the fangs. People who are constantly mad (see: Alterman) and politics is about making friends.

Finally, here’s the fourth problem: It’s about winning the next election. See today’s USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll: Hillary Clinton is leading the polls (40 percent v. 25 for Kerry — God forbid — and 17 for Edwards). And on the other side, Rudy’s No. 1 wth 34 percent and McCkain’s second with 29 percent. This is going to be an election won at the center — I hope — and so the last thing the Democrats should be today is The Angry Party.

Let’s hope that Dr. Dean prescribes himself and our party a few tranqs.

67 responses to “The Angry Party”

  1. Ron Avatar

    Although I’m a Republican, I couldn’t agree with you more. Dems do really need to stop nay-saying on all fronts. There are some good things about Iraq (Elections come to mind), and there is a need to reform Social Security to some extent. Give me another plan to consider, but don’t throw it all out without consideration. Nice one. I think they need more thoughts like yours.

  2. bk Avatar

    No fixes for SS? Are you stupid or just oblivious? How about rolling back 1/3 of the Bush tax cut to the wealthiest, which would fund SS into the 22nd century. It’s not that Dems don’t have ideas, it’s that there is no one to bargain with.

  3. Mike Avatar

    Yeah bk, let’s just roll back, or better yet, tax at a rate of 70-80% for everyone. That way the government can have enough money to solve all our problems and take away all our responsibility! Please, more taxes is not the answer.
    Good post Jeff. So how long before we see some sort of viable third party? It would be interesting to see a concerted effort to form some sort of moderate party that could draw from both the Democrats and the Republicans.

  4. praktike Avatar

    You’re not exactly a model of decorum, you know. It’s just that different things piss you off.

  5. bk Avatar

    Mike –
    Jeff asked for any new ideas. You don’t have to like it, but let’s not pretend that other solutions haven’t been proposed. Every time Dems have tried to work with this administration, they’ve gotten the shaft. I say be as angry as you wanna be. Playing nice with this bunch will get you nowhere.

  6. Drew W Avatar

    Nice post, Jeff. As yet another disaffected Democrat, let me float a possibility: the Democrats really don’t want to assume power in this country.
    Much of today’s Democratic rhetoric is obstructionist, or oppositionist, or just plain reluctant to assume responsibility for anything. (Am I the only one who thought that “Not In Our Name” was just a high-minded way of saying “Please Don’t Blame Me?”) Today’s Democrats stand there with pursed lips, crossed arms and upturned noses, confident that at least the Europeans would approve of their worldly-wise disdain.
    I’m not the first one to conclude that the left isn’t just suspicious of Republican authority, it’s suspicious of ALL authority — including itself. Such is the legacy of all those Dems still in the thrall of the Vietnam/Watergate era during which they came of age.
    I think the Democrats have grown comfortable in their role as political terriers, snarling and nipping at the heels of those in power before retreating to safety under the coffee-table. The little pooch feels satisfied that it’s done its part to keep its opponent in line, and is now free to stretch out on the carpet for another nice midday nap. Now I’ve known some very cute terriers in my day, but none that I’d want to elect President of the United States.

  7. WJA Avatar

    It’s really not anger *per se* that’s a problem for most hardcore Democrats. It’s *what* they’re angry at, and in what proportion. How about a movement of new Democrats who are way, way, *way* more angry about airliners being slammed into our builders and young Jewish-Americans having their heads cut off on videotape, than they are about the Blue Skies initiative and the underfunding of prescription drug benefits for seniors? I for one would welcome that.

  8. B. Minich, PI Avatar

    Nice post, Jeff. Great points about the Democrats, and why they shouldn’t be the Angry Party.
    Also, I think that’s the first positive use of the word ilk I have ever seen. Excellent job – espicially since I, for some odd reason, like that word.

  9. pm Avatar

    Drew –
    First rate comment. Cohesive thought and great writing. Quite a combo.

  10. Pax Avatar

    The Democrats have been a party of exclusion for quite a while. You’ve got to toe the party line or be excommunicated.
    The example I used when debating this with my Mom last night was : Aren’t pro-choice Republicans much more accepted in their party than pro-life Democrats are in theirs?

  11. creepy dude Avatar
    creepy dude

    That would be no Pax. Harry Reid is pro-life. Clear divisions are for the simple-minded.

  12. carsonfire Avatar

    I agree with most of JJ’s analyzation, except on O’Reilly. I still contend that O’Reilly is not an angry right winger, but an independent loudmouth gadfly. He’s as likely to charge left as right on an issue.
    Raging about crude rap lyrics alone does not a Republican make; and a conservative certainly wouldn’t rail against SUVs the way he does. Put O’Reilly out of your mind, and you’ll have a harder time finding “angry” right wingers on TV. More certifiable right wingers like Sean Hannity and Tony Blankley are downright gregarious, and are better comparisons to right wing bloggers.
    An actual angry right-winger in the form of extremist Michael Savage surfaced for a while on TV, but he was axed (thank goodness).

  13. carsonfire Avatar

    I’d like to see Harry Reid argue his pro-life position on DemocraticUnderground.

  14. praktike Avatar

    Yeah, except that Michael Savage is one of the biggest hosts on AM radio nationwide.

  15. Hubris Avatar

    Mr. Jarvis,
    I’m just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! You post something criticizing the Bush administration, then in the next post criticize the Democratic party…it makes me want to get up from my computer and run off into the hills, or wherever…sometimes I see comments from both sides accusing you of being a shill for the other side, and I wonder: “Did little demons type these?” I don’t know! My primitive mind can’t grasp these concepts.

  16. B Avatar

    I agree whole heartedly with Drew W. Maybe we should be the angry party. We let the GOP walk all over us and spead lies and we don’t have the guts to confront them. We are too afraid of having the “anti-american” label or the “anti-family values” label. Well I’m sick of it. It is time to push back. If we speak out against the war it does not mean we are unpatriotic. If we support homosexual rights it does not mean we are against family values.

  17. Jos Bleau Avatar

    The problem is that the steam has run out of the party. FDR’s New Deal has been the core of the party for 70 years but its simply run out of steam. Dems need to figure out what they are for, otherwise they’ll always be the angry party, the againsters, the outs.
    Repubs know what they are for – they have a set of core beliefs. They may be bad beliefs or repubs may be hypocritical about actually implementing them, but that’s part of being a grownup. They can agree on and articulate a positive vision.
    Last fall I challeneged all my partisan Dem friends to tell me why I should vote Dem WITHOUT disparaging Bush or saying anything negative about repubs. None could do it but one – a low level staffer for the Barak Obama campaign.
    Quit looking at Obama and start listening to him – he’s your way forward.

  18. DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) Avatar

    Not only are the democrats going to be permanently labelled as the “angry party,” but the credibility gap and victim fatigue that your party is suffering from will grow ever larger.
    The credibility gap stems from ever more ridiculous claims and positions that have no basis in reality. It used to be the case in the county that you could get things done by generating hysteria and grossly exagerating. The idea was that if you repeated something enough times, whether it was based in reality or not, it became true, even without any basis in fact. Well, people have seen this and it’s not so easy to get them worked up.
    The victim fatigue stems from the ever more victim groups that are manufactured by the Democrats. The most absurd is that all women are victims. Underlying this is a belief in “the patriarchy” and that all men are somewhere between semi-violent and completely violent. Check out the outrageous domestic violence laws that more and more men have found themselves caught in after doing nothing, and you’ll see why men don’t trust democrats, even the working class men that traditionally were attracted to the party’s Jacksonian roots.
    In both of these areas, Democrats seem to work at cross-purposes. First they say that all men are part of the patriarchy and that all men are violent towards women; then, they go up in arms when someone, like the President of Harvard, states that women have some differences relative to men. Well, which is it? Men and women are all the same, and the only difference is due to “gender” (which means “assigned by culture”); or, is it the case that men and women are different biologically?
    This is just one of the many contradictions within the Democratics party that makes it hard to take them seriously. Certianly, for all those that can’t find their way into a “protected group,” they know that Democrats institutionalize government hostility towards them.
    Dean will just make all of that worse. But, oh well, I guess I’ll just keep voting Republican or third party, as I have been for 10 years. There is no place for me in the Democratic party any longer.

  19. countertop Avatar

    Great Post Jeff and I’m glad to see at least some Democrats are asking the tough questions of their party and tried to quickly right the sinking ship, because if the Democrats become the wholy non entity their quickly careening towards, that will result in a Republican party with total control thats in the total control of the crazy religious right. What people need to remember is that the American expermient in Government works over the long haul because its all about balancing power.
    Of course, as I discussed at the Countertop Chronicles this morning, the other thing Dean needs to do right away is work on the parties brand identity. Consumers don’t buy something if they don’t understand what the product does.

  20. Cincinnatus Avatar

    I’d like to see Harry Reid argue his pro-life position on DemocraticUnderground.

    I’d like to see Arlen Specter argue his pro-choice position to the Christian Coalition. Natch.

  21. Cincinnatus Avatar

    there is a need to reform Social Security to some extent

    Two months ago, we were told that Social Security was a “crisis.” Now, it’s we need to “reform Social Security to some extent.” Excuse me for being a little cynical. Social Security is and has been running a surplus for 15 years, and will be running one until, at least 2018 (when Clinton was in office, they were saying until 2012, the date keeps getting farther out). Then, under current projections, Social Security will continue to be able to pay benefits at current rates adjusted for the cost of living (which is a big adjustment, much more than inflation) until at least 2042. Sorry, if we dems don’t think that is the most pressing issue. Medicare is really on the verge of going bust, and the deficit, rememember that? I forgot about it when Clinton was Prez because there wasn’t one. But in any event the general budget deficit is a much larger problem than the way-out projections for SS not being able to pay 100 percent until 2042. Solve that, and there ain’t gonna be problems with SS.

    Moreover, excuse us dems for being a little cynical that hte people who now want to “fix” social security are the same people who never liked it in the first place.

    Jeff, sorry, sometimes we gotta be against somethings. If you could explain to me why we should help out on Social Security, I may listen, but just because you say so don’t make it so. And the only reason you don’t like Dean is because he was against the Iraq war, and turned out to be right. You were wrong. That’s what you don’t like. Please stop claiming ot be a dem. We are a party that tolerates ideological diversity (see, e.g., Harry Reid, the current hero of the lefty blogs who is also pro-guns and pro-life). But we don’t tolerate assh*les like you who always talk sh*t about the party and tell us that we must cooperate with the Prez no matter what he tries to shove down our throats. Republicans certainly didn’t play that game with Clinton (to their credit) and we shouldn’t play it with Bush.

  22. Cincinnatus Avatar

    The victim fatigue stems from the ever more victim groups that are manufactured by the Democrats.

    I can’t stop laughing. . . . All those groups that feel victimized in the Dem party. Ever heard of any of these poor victimized groups:

    1. Poor Christians who are oppressed by the “secular” state because some people voluntarily say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas.”

    2. Poor Christians who are not allowed to have the ten commandments posted to the forehead of every young child in public school. (OK, the Christians are an easy target)>

    3. Poor students who subscribe to right-wing ideology that must listen to others’ views on college campuses and then scream bloody murder because “conservatives” are oppressed by the academy (hah, hah.)

    4. Poor Kathryn Lopez is forced to see sexually-suggestive images in Times Square. Oh, the humanity!

    5. Poor children oppressed by Janet Jackson’s tit during the Super Bowl.

    6. Poor white people who can’t get into a university because a negro took their place (never mind the fact that many whites get into universities because of legacy-ism).

    Poor conservatives, go call the waaambulance.

  23. Screwy Hoolie Avatar

    Yeeeaaarrrggghhh!!! The Sky is Falling!
    Relax, people. Dean isn’t an angry man. He’s a straight shooting man who trucks no nonsense. If you want another mealy mouthed dem in charge, then you want to lose.
    Dean has been in charge of other big organizations like the Governors’ association. And how many times did you hear about how much of a firebrand he was then? Zero. That’s because he’s now been effectively labeled by the Repubs, and everyone’s going along with it.
    The Doctor is a level-headed, creative person who represents the next step for our party, which has fallen victim to me-tooism for long enough.
    This is the beginning of the next thing. Get on board, or just sit back and watch. But please stop with the reactive sky is falling rhetoric.

  24. Jos Bleau Avatar

    Cinc –
    you ooze contempt for those who don’t agree with you and then you wonder why they’re not flocking to your banner. Try convincing them to see things your way.
    There’s a reason why Pepsi tries to win over consumers by telling them how great Pepsi is and not by telling Coke drinkers that they are too stupid and hateful to drink Pepsi.
    As a guy who owns stock in Coke, all I can say is, I wish you were in charge of marketing Pepsi!
    I can just imagine the headline – “Try NEW Pepsi Green – Now More Bile Than Ever!”

  25. Oliver Avatar

    I question your Democratic cred because all you do is poop on Democrats Jeff.

  26. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    It’s hard to blame guys Oliver Willis for being suspicious of people who, given the nature of today’s right wing — a movement that went pro-torture without skipping a beat — can complain in all seriousness about the Democrats as the “angry party.” It was silliness during Dean’s candidacy in the primaries, and it’s silliness now. (And I’m not sure what rightwing blogs you’re reading, but “in control” and “mature”? Ummm, no. Though I’d buy “smug” — and it’s easy to see why; after all, they’re living in the second term of a Republican President who never should have had a first term.)
    An effective political party needs two things going for it: the ability to cohere around a platform, and the willingness to fight for that platform without apology. The Republicans plainly have both of these things going for them right now; the Democrats plainly do not. And so long as the Dems are saddled with a whole wing of the party that’s terrified to actually oppose anything for fear of looking “angry,” they never will. Sure, the Dems need to have a positive programme — but an essential part of building that positive programme is going to be recognizing, and stating bluntly, what needs to change.
    This doesn’t mean they have to degenerate into the GOP, with their own coterie of barking heads, their own defamation of half the American voting populace, their own uncanny culture of partisanship uber alles. But if something positive is to happen, it almost certainly will mean that “the young turks” cease to be treated and talked about as an embarrassment to be swept under the rug. Above all, the Dems need fire and vision, not another generation of bloodless bureaucrats and spineless consultants. You’d better hope Dean does NOT prescribe your party some tranqs; it’s been living on Prozac and wistful fantasies of bipartisan cooperation for too many years.

  27. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    Jeff is not a democrat. If he was, he would know that Democrats have offered alternatives. Why he is lying about the existence of these alternatives is anybody’s guess….
    but my guess is that Jeff knows that Dr. Dean is a straight talker, and isn’t going to pull any punches when it comes to liars like Jeff who say that the dems have no alternatives to Bush’s plans.

  28. Hubris Avatar

    Jeff, I can’t imagine why you don’t have fun hanging out with these people.

  29. J. Peden Avatar

    What is the significance of the fact that Howard Dean manages to make himself into an imbecile everytime he speaks for more than 30 seconds and that his followers see this as “straight talking”?
    Examples are and will continue to be rampant. I await with glee his leadership. Has Gore endorsed him yet?

  30. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Jeff, I can’t imagine why you don’t have fun hanging out with these people.
    See, I get nostalgic for the crappy snark on Buzzmachine now and then. But you should have left it at your first post — looks like it was more accurate than you imagined. ;-)

  31. Faramin Avatar

    As a foreigner, I always found that with people such as Dr. Howard Dean, as the president of the United States, I could have lots of respect for the country.
    Dr. Dean was one of, if not the only one, presidentail candidate in the US’s recent history that would not be a puppet to the big corporations if became president.
    Also, Dr. Dean was one of, if not the only one, presidential candidate who criticized 50 years of US policies as not being even-handed when it comes to Israeli-Palestinian conflict. These qualities are more than enough for the right wing America to jump on his throat, and Jeff Jarvis was very good at doing that as he passionately dispalyed how much he hated Mr. Dean.
    Perhaps, people such as Dr. Dean can bring back to America what was lost by idiots such as Bush and Co.

  32. carsonfire Avatar

    Orson Scott Card is furious with his party’s “childish, selfish, dangerous behavior” and is calling on moderates to take back the party from the kooks:
    http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2005-01-30-1.html
    “It’s time for Democrats who are sick of such shenanigans to speak up and repudiate these clowns.”
    As far as being political disaffected from his own party, Card is a few steps ahead of JJ. And I’m sure not one fringeist here wouldn’t sneer at Card and accuse him of being a Rethuglican.

  33. Jim S Avatar

    Card’s comments would have more credibility if in fact he’d ever said one word before this indicating that he is a Democrat. In fact he’s a very conservative Mormon who has written some very conservative anti-gay articles in Mormon publications.

  34. Oliver Avatar

    Like Jarvis, Card has fun hiding behind the “I’m a Democrat” card while never having a good word to say about the party.
    Maybe I’ll become a Republican so I can write essays and blogs like that.

  35. gregburton Avatar

    Card is actually a relatively moderate Morman, who has had his own problems with the LDS. He’s no more “very conservative” than Dr Dean is “very liberal”. I think I’m a progressive, but that doesn’t mean everyone to the right of me is a conservative, something that a lot of folks don’t seem to have figured out – on either side of the aisle.

  36. John Avatar

    Periods of what most people would consider are counter-productive stretches of anger by many on the outer factions of political parties isn’t anything new. The Republicans were dealing with the same problem 13 years ago with the rise of Patrick J. Buchanan, wo thought nothing of picking up a pitchfork and using it as his symbol during his 1992 primary run, and whose supporters were ready to drum anyone out of the conservative movement if they continued to support Bush 41 (many of them would gravitate over to Ross Perot in the general election after cheering Pat’s convention speech). The question is how long does this period last before voices more acceptable to the rest of the country regain control of the party.
    Buchanan started his rise in the late 1980s, peaked in early 1996 and became only a funny/tragic footnote (depending on which party you belong to) by the time of the 2000 election. But for all his support, the Buchananites never gained control of the mechanism of the GOP, something the Dean people now appear to have done.
    Buchanan was better-known to people before he began is presidential bids, so his actions were more of a known quantity. People who saw Dean as Vermont governor say he was far more moderate than last year’s presidential candidate. For the Democrats’ sake, the Vermont Gov. Dean better be the one running the DNC, because if it’s Howling Howie from last January, he’ll only be appealing to the followers and the Democrats will have to hope for a major economic downturn or terrorist attack against U.S. interests to turn things around.

  37. J. Peden Avatar

    bk, I hope you are young and teachable. For you obviously don’t know anything about how the Federal Government works. Economically, it has its own rules, which would be criminal if used in the private sector.
    For example, there is no federal trust fund with any assets in it beyond what is necessary to pay out current obligations, for instance, that which is required by law to go to those actually on ss.
    All alleged assets of the fund are no more than worthless i.o.u.’s.. They are called “bonds” but they cannot be bought and sold. Thus they are not bonds.
    The debt the bonds represent will simply be “forgiven” by the Gov’t, since the citizen taxpayers will have to hold up ss obligations regardless, via current taxations to pay current obligations for any particular year in the future.
    Quite simply, the Federal Government never saves any money or makes any investments in the way the private sector individuals and money managers do. The Gov’t spends everything it gets and then some. That’s why there is a national debt, not because there is not “enough” taxation.
    The “internal” part of the debt is somewhere around 3 trillion dollars and consists of government trust funds which have been totally depleted of any money they ever collected for the specific purposes of each fund – such as ss, highway, superfund, timber harvest road management fund, and so on. Naturally, they are “owed” money, but this is only a technicality, not an obligation in the sense of a private sector loan. The loan is not a loan.
    Likewise, the excess ss tax now collected beyond that necessary to fund yearly obligations [excessive from the nearly the beginning of ss] is spent instead on general fund programs, not saved. If this keeps up and/or taxes of any kind are raised, the programs spawned will come back to vie with ss obligations when the fund goes “bankrupt” – when ss taxes alone cannot cover yearly obligations.
    And there is a limit to what the private sector will be willing to put up with or even be able to put up with. People do not like to be slaves to other people or governments.
    With this in mind, how could raising the tax on the “wealthy” now [or repealing the cut] have anything to do with making the ss fund solvent further into the future? Again, all any such tax will do at best is create more competing general fund programs for the same tax dollar ss will have to compete with when ss goes “bankrupt”.
    Why wouldn’t it make more sense to wait nearly until the actual specified ss tax did not cover its yearly obligations, even assuming that raising taxes is the solution, which it is not?
    The analysis of the way Gov’t handles economics only gets worse. It tries to get as much money as possible so it can spend it currently, thus providing the elected representatives and non-elected administrators with a dole they can use to get a reward in return. This is a classic bribe-kickback scam enacted on the backs of all taxpayers. But here it is “legal”. What is illegal is legal.
    Why not see it for what it is rather than being willfully duped by promises of fantasy nirvanas and claims of moral worth achieved through giving to the Government or taking the allegedly evil profit from the “rich”?
    You simply cannot trust the Federal Government with your money. Your tax contribution is not a tithe which will earn you security or self-worth. Instead you must provide for yourself and work to lower taxes. Social-ism simply does not work beyond a certain point, despite the fantasies of the Europeans and other Marxists. Communism has failed dramatically and current social-istic governments are mostly failing. European social-istic unemployment runs at 10-12%, governments cannot fund their cradle to grave obligations, national health care systems are failing and inferior, the social-istic governments cannot even defend their own countries.
    The U.S. Government itself does not even care if its programs work. It hardly ever even tests the multiply redundent and obviously ineffectual programs, beyond finding out that, yes, people like to get doles and handouts. The Government generally tends to work for its own benefit, not for that of the taxpayers who fund it. It’s actually an ecological niche provided for by taxpayers. Is it any surprise that it “must” get larger and finds more special groups to “help”?

  38. EverKarl Avatar

    Oliver wrote:
    “Like Jarvis, Card has fun hiding behind the “I’m a Democrat” card while never having a good word to say about the party.
    Maybe I’ll become a Republican so I can write essays and blogs like that.
    That would be as dishonest as writing that all Jeff does is poop on Democrats (Michael Powell, James Dobson, etc.). Oh wait, he already wrote that…

  39. Del Avatar

    I think the purpose of Dean being Party Chair is to keep the left in the party as it moves to the center for ’08. Although Dean has been painted as a left-liberal he’s really more of a centrist if you consider his time as Gov of Vermont; he’s mostly thought of as part of the left because he was anti-war. The Party Chair really isn’t that visible to the average American anyhow, so he really won’t be that big of a factor in an election. I think he understands that the party has to move to the center, he’s trusted by the left though so maybe he can keep them in the party while helping to make that happen.

  40. Cincinnatus Avatar

    All alleged assets of the fund are no more than worthless i.o.u.’s.. They are called “bonds” but they cannot be bought and sold.

    T-bills are worthless? Wow. Quite a statement. T-bills can’t be bought and sold? Who knew? I was under the impression that they were the safest investment in the world. Apparently, most believe me as that explains why they have such a small return, i.e, almost no risk. Thanks for the economic analysis. You probably got your econ degree from the same place Jeff Gannon got his journalism degree.

    Memo to Rethugs: Saying that T-bills are just worthless IOU’s is not going to be a very good thing for the value of the dollar.

  41. J. Peden Avatar

    Iguana, I agree totally with you. I voted against Gore because I simply could not take any more being blamed for every damn thing under the sun simply because I was white, male, and “rich”. It made no sense, and was totally bigoted.
    Also the blaming of maleness or the Patriarchy for all conceivable ills of the innocent, good, and feckless women resembles to me nothing if not outright sexism on a par with classic racism – against both men and women.
    Women are easily as violent as are men and this is born out by real statistics, if not from our own first hand knowledge of these things. In this light the Violence Against Women Act needs to be sunsetted for the sexist model and grab for power that it is. Its presuppositions are totally irrational and fly in the face of fact, while at the same time being an attempt to control males in the same way a classic batterer does. Where’s Freud in our hour of need?
    Right now there is an attempt to pass a law in Idaho making non-felony strangulation into felony strangulation, under the nonsensical argument that women who have faced current non-felony strangulation are “20 times more likely to be killed” by the men in their lives. How anyone would even know this is a mystery, since you would have had to have talked to the dead to find out.
    But then we also have the gnawing question to begin with as to what the hell “non-felony” strangulation even is.
    The whole thrust of the law seems to be to single out women as specially victimized by domestic violence, which they are not, and to get men to have to plea down from “felony non-strangulation” to a misdemeanor level which then makes them captive of “batterer intervention programs’ which do not work and only “treat” domestic violence by battering men, that is by punishing them regardless of the facts of the violence. Whatever the woman did does not count or was caused by the male according to these sexist programs. It is little wonder that they can’t possibly work.
    Apparently women “victims” would be questioned as to whether men had “strangled” them in the past, thus causing the “felony”. The whole nexus is so irrational, it’s hard to even explain it. Why pick on non-strangulation strangulation as opposed to hitting someone in the head with a bat or a fist, or attacking someone with bites and attempts to crush their testicles, or pursuing someone within the house to all ends, or even threatening to kill them if they don’t stop having non-existent affairs?
    Perhaps naive, unsuspecting women would be “screened” at various sites as to whether a man had ever threatened to strangle her or had placed his hands upon her neck, thus creating the felony. But, again, why men are not screened for battering on the part of women is a big elephant in the living room, since men are still killed by women in their lives at a 1/3 to 1/2 rate compared to that at which women are killed [at one time it was nearly 50-50].
    One half of the people women kill are their men, and women kill their children at a greater rate than do men. But the whole “men are the cause of domestic violence” is completely confused, because the model is incorrect and the stats are fabricated, fudged, and misapplied in a sexist way.
    This kind of thing typifies Democrat thought process and tactics: creating preferred “victims” and villifying people on the basis of gender and color, and even whole systems, such as Capitalism by fiat as the alleged cause, very similar to witch-hunting. It’s no wonder that anger is a valued attribute of Democrats, above rationality. Dean is perfect for this sub-human mindset.

  42. Cincinnatus Avatar

    I simply could not take any more being blamed for every damn thing under the sun simply because I was white, male, and “rich”

    This kind of thing typifies Democrat thought process and tactics: creating preferred “victims”

    Hmm, the Democrats are the party attempting to turn everyone into victims?

    The whole thrust of the law seems to be to single out women.

    It is little wonder that they can’t possibly work.

    Apparently women “victims” would be questioned as to whether men had “strangled” them in the past.

    It’s no wonder that anger is a valued attribute of Democrats, above rationality

    Hmm, the Democrats are the angry ones?

    Perhaps, you’d like some milk with your irony?

    Wow, your logic is almost as silly as your econ. . . . .

  43. Mike S Avatar

    Find me a Republican in congress who is willing to work in a bipartisan way. What we have now is a group running congress that won’t even allow Democrats to look at bills before voting, let alone allow one to help create the bill. When there is a dem idea inserted by the Senate it is stripped out by the committee. Hell, it’s a battle just to get a conference room.
    If the Republican party had any interest in bipartisanship I would take this post seriously. Compromise is what the founding fathers had in mind when they created this country. The current GOP has no interest in compromise. As a moderate, I figured this out a while ago. Even Harry Reid, a man who always looked for compromise, has figured this out. I think you better start paying attention to that, unless of course you prefer one side to always make the laws. If you do you better remember that at some point the Republicans will be out of power.

  44. Eileen Avatar

    J. Peden,
    Since you’ve gone waaayy off topic on patriarchal diatribes and battering, I’ll meet you there for a moment.
    “Women are easily as violent as are men and this is born out by real statistics, if not from our own first hand knowledge of these things.”
    What ‘real statistics’ compiled by whom on what planet? 95% of all domestic batterers are male.
    “Right now there is an attempt to pass a law in Idaho making non-felony strangulation into felony strangulation, under the nonsensical argument that women who have faced current non-felony strangulation are “20 times more likely to be killed” by the men in their lives. How anyone would even know this is a mystery, since you would have had to have talked to the dead to find out.”
    Try this on for size. I was ‘non-strangulation strangled’ by the father of my child. Three weeks later the same man killed our five week old child in my womb. You can talk to my dead baby about the 20 times greater likelihood of death. Oh, and I never touched the guy, who was twice my size.
    I no longer believe you are an M.D. But if you are, you’re mighty sick and could use a doc yourself. Your mischaracterizations of women are astounding; scary, actually.
    “Why pick on non-strangulation strangulation as opposed to hitting someone in the head with a bat or a fist, or attacking someone with bites and attempts to crush their testicles, or pursuing someone within the house to all ends, or even threatening to kill them if they don’t stop having non-existent affairs?”
    Sounds like you’ve had a bad experience or two. Maybe you’re one of those 5% abused men? If so, I’m sorry and I commiserate. But instead, I would bet all your bad T-Bills, and all the money in the world that YOU were the controlling batterer you’re here to defend. Same goes for you, Iguana. Odds are 95% I’m correct. Batterers unite – of course. Good luck to you both, and may you never find any other female ‘victims’ of any political suasion in your lives ever again. For even with long term counseling, male batterers with borderline personality syndrome only have about a 5% ‘recovery’ rate.
    But I do agree that – clearly – the ‘batterer intervention program’ didn’t work.

  45. HA Avatar

    Oliver,
    Do you have any idea how alienating your “you’re-not-a-real-liberal-if-you-don’t-regurgitate-the-party-line” schtick is? For a party that claims to support dissent, how come the Democrats don’t tolerate it from their own ranks? Are you TRYING to drive independent thinkers out of the party?
    You guys are contstantly whining about being criticized for undermining our duly elected President’s war policy. That is just healthy and patriotic dissent, don’t you know.
    But God help any Democrat who dissents from the party line. If your’re a dissenting liberal, you’re not a real liberal. If your a dissenting black, you’re not a real black. If your a dissenting latino, you’re not a real latino. If you’re a dissenting woman, you’re not a real woman. If you dissent, you are even denied your identity.
    Except for white Christian males. White Christian males who dissent from the party line are just the evil racist sexist homophobic oppressors that everybody knows they are. The Republicans are welcome to have them.
    All my life, I’ve been a centrist Democrat. I voted for Clinton twice and Gore once. But I don’t recognize today’s party. All that remains is a bunch of snivelling, hysterical, heckling Marxists. How did the proud party of FDR, Truman and JFK become this repulsive?

  46. Pat Avatar

    Jeff — If you aren’t angry at what Bush and his crowd is doing to this country you should change parties.

  47. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    Ever notice how all of these people claiming to be democrats harken back to a mythical recent past (when, apparently, Democrats did not stand for social justice) for the Democratic party?
    Perhaps the most interesting phenomenon is that most of these claimed Democrats talk about people like FDR and JFK, then complain about how as “white Christian males” they are blamed for everything. Basically, these people are saying that their problem with the Democratic Party started when the Party took a firm and unequivocal stand on equal rights for African Americans starting in the mid-sixties….

  48. bk Avatar

    T-bills are worthless? Wow. Quite a statement. T-bills can’t be bought and sold? Who knew? I was under the impression that they were the safest investment in the world. Apparently, most believe me as that explains why they have such a small return, i.e, almost no risk. Thanks for the economic analysis. You probably got your econ degree from the same place Jeff Gannon got his journalism degree.
    Thanks Cincinnatus. I was too busy trying to pick my jaw up off the floor to respond. Right or wrong, my original point remains. Dems have offered alternative propasals, Repubs aren’t interested.

  49. Oliver Avatar

    Nobody’s telling anyone they have to toe a party line, just not defecate all over the party every chance they get to the applause of the far right. Think its funny you lump people in with the far-left Marxists, considering I’m a DLC Dem, and a disciple of Clinton/Gore.

  50. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    As a Democrat who voted for Bush, please include BK’s tax plan and Cincinnatus’ Christian-bashing in your platform for the next couple of elections. Thank you.
    As for Dean… if you want to win an election in the center, Dean is not your man. Ask any nurse who’s worked with one how flexible doctors are on taking advice or criticism, let alone then changing their positions.

  51. J. Peden Avatar

    Eileen: my points stand and they are not “sexist” anymore than are those of the gender feminists, their “statistics”, and the presuppositions of the Vawa and their parasitic BIP’s.
    Actually, it is my exact point that sexisms are equal and equally irrelevant to the consideration of domestic violence.
    And I’m not going to debate statistics, because I already know I can neutralize or neuterize all of them, leaving the problem of domestic violence still standing-by virtually unanalyzed and unsolved.
    Perhaps my post was too extreme in that it turned the logic of sexist feminists right back upon itself in a tit-for-tat way? This is fair play, and useful in showing the faults of sexisms: no solution emerges from this game.
    I can see I pushed your buttons, and I’m really sorry if I implied that you deserved what you got! Whatever else I can do to show you this, just ask [no monetary requests, please -joke].
    But, you must also ask yourself: how would further criminalizing “strangulation” have helped you avoid the violence which killed your child?
    Strangulation of nearly any kind is already a crime, as is a death threat, a blow, and so on. You cannot expect the Police and Legal System to help you if you do not report the premonitory event. And it certainly does not do you or your child any good to punish the killer ex post facto.
    Also, whatever violent act was committed upon you causing the death of your child should have been rather severely punished? I obviously don’t know, but it seems like it could have rivaled “felony strangulation”?
    I am not blaming you for staying in the situation for another three weeks, only trying to display the situation to see what’s going on, as you no doubt have already done to try to understand it yourself and avoid the same thing in the future, a task which is ultimately up to you.
    And I’m not saying there is any easy solution to the situation that you and many women and men find themselves in. But trying to blame one sex or the other is more akin to making sacrifices to the gods as a solution, or to overt racism as an explanatory principle, than it is to attempting to rationally analyze violence between people who live in a domestic relationship.
    At base, everyone must personally evaluate their own situation as to the actual threat involved and what to do about it. No one else can do it for you and it is not easy.

  52. J. Peden Avatar

    Ah the mighty cincinnatus weighs in to help bk pick his jaw up off the floor.
    Sorry, young turk warriors, the t-bills in the ss fund are not transactable. This is fact.
    Look at is this way: what would happen if they were salable? Private entities would buy them at some rate. Then the Federal Government would actually have to pay the buyers back and not be able to simply “forgive” the loan. Get it yet?
    I know it’s stunning and virtually unbelieveable, but unless you realize this strange fact of life, you will not understand how things actually work and will not have any realistic solution to the ss problem.
    Here’s an anecdote involving a really savy guy, William Seidman, who ran the RTC {Resolution Trust Committee[?] circa 1988} which managed the Savings and Loan debacle which involved various S&L’s lending up to $100,000 to shaky and shady borrowers because the Government insured them for losses up to this amount:
    Seidman later became a commentator for CNBC or FNN. In one segment he said something like, “When I came to Washington, I was stunned to find out that there were no funds in the social security trust fund.” He was genuinely shaken.
    So you Turks and Kurds are not alone and should not feel the lesser for not knowing this fact. Unfortuneately, you must Move On if you wish to be real players in the problems you want to address. [I figured it out in 1988 as a mere chimp citizen. So can you, until proven otherwise.]

  53. Mike S Avatar

    J. Peden
    Educate me please. Are you saying that the t-bills can be defaulted on with no harm done to our credit rating? Are you saying that whoever bought those t-bills is SOL and you have no problem with that? If we default on them what will the reaction be of foreign govt’s who hold much of our debt in other t-bills and who will bail us out as if we were Mexico?

  54. Don Avatar

    Jeff: when did we become the party of exclusion?
    It think it’s the death of 1000 cuts. For me it was in April, 1984 when I voted for Gary Hart in the Wisconsin primary, then attended the caucus the next Saturday and watched the party ‘regulars’ roll it up for Mondale – despite at least 40% attending being Hart supporters. That November I voted for Reagan.
    The only Democrat to get my presidential vote since was Bill Clinton in 1992. Another ‘exclusion’ moment was the 1992 Democratic convention which excluded pro-life Pennsylvania governor Bob Casey from the podium.

  55. Terrier Avatar

    I applaud this post. All of you who agree with it should burn your DNC cards now because I’m angry as hell at what a bunch of weak kneed DINOs have allowed the Radical Republics to do to this country. If you can’t get angry about the Republics now you sure shouldn’t be a Democrat and it won’t bother me to see you leave because I have little doubt that we will be able to build a new constituency from all the people who are being brazenly and subtly screwed right now by the Radicals in charge of the country. If your idea of resoluteness is a mealy-mouther reply to whether sweat can transmit HIV or you think that breast-implants make women healthier then don’t bother shutting the door on the way out.

  56. Mike S Avatar

    Don revives the lie about Casey. God forbid that there be one honest Republucan out there. Thanks for trying though.

  57. J. Peden Avatar

    Mike S: the notes held by ss are not notes since they cannot be traded. Actually “defaulting” on these notes decreases the national debt by about 3 trillion. This doesn’t mean anything real even though it makes things look better.
    This is what is going to happen because it makes no sense for the Gov’t to pay itself back when this is the same thing as funding from contemporaneous taxes ongoing ss obligations.
    But you could call it “paying them off” if you want to. The Gov’t would only “pay back” or “retire its debt” at a rate needed to fund ongoing yearly ss obligations. None of these notes has even ever “matured” when ongoing payroll taxes have exceeded ss yearly payout obligations, which has occurred to the tune of 75-100 billion for many years now. This excess is simply spent on “general fund” programs each year. It is not saved, unless you call spending what you have saved saving.
    The Gov’t already has plenty of notes to actually fund deficits. It simply writes them up and sells them to actual non-U.S.Government entities every 3 months or so. The tax payers do pay off these obligations, maintaining credit for the Government.
    Again, it sounds unbelieveable but it’s what the Government does. The savings in the form of ss notes or bills are merely i.o.u.’s “owed” to the fund by the taxpayers who gave the same excess value in payroll taxes, but then these excess over yearly outgo was simply spent. So the taxpayers have to come up with another round of giving for that which they or someone really already gave.
    How would you like your private retirement account to be handled this way?
    But this occurs “for your own good”, of course, even though you do not know about it. Simply agree and ask for more taxes. Yeah, that will do it!

  58. Felix Felix Avatar
    Felix Felix

    I AM Angry. I know your experience has been with young rabid angry types or tired Eeyor angry types…I am the “lets make some real changes” angry type. Dean represents the anger that we have for politicians who have worried so much about getting elected that the idea is to not believe in anything TOO much. I am not a Deaniac, and I don’t know that he represents ‘the answer’, but he is a good symbol of a larger undercurrent of anger in this country about where our government is heading. I am not worried about alienating the more moderate portion of the Democratic Party.
    I think there is a large portion of this country waiting to see the next ‘FDR’ before they get involved. Half the country doesn’t vote and I think it’s because we’re too busy trying to get them too with ‘moderation’. We need a shakeup and we need some new blood and we need some serious looks at our IDEAL policy not the most electable policy.
    Republicans know the hard core right wingers that they have elected. The majority of republicans were not ‘fooled’ into voting for what they thought was a ‘moderate’ candidate. I think that if presented with a real LIBERAL candidate who wants to make changes, REAL Changes to our system to take back the rights that have been sqandered with “corporate personhood” and “pork barrel politics” many more would vote.
    I think the anger of Dean represents the anger of a party that wants change and wont settle for less. Change for the people not the corporations. If we can’t get that kind of truth elected than we should be angry and since we have a hard time even getting that kind of truth on the table, WE ARE ANGRY. Let Dean represent that anger for us if he is able to.

  59. HA Avatar

    Oliver,
    I’m a DLC Dem, and a disciple of Clinton/Gore.
    I’ve got some news for you. The DLC is the FRINGE of the Democrats. Don’t take my word for it. I give you Kos:
    http://dailykos.com/story/2004/12/9/143724/624
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/5/24/1712/23448
    It looks more to me that the Democrats are defacating all over the DLC every chance they get to the applause of the Marxist left.
    Maybe your fight is with Kos instead of Jeff. And maybe you should spend more time at the DLC web site because you obviously haven’t been getting the memos.
    http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=900056&contentid=251690
    Some disciple you are. I suppose that you are now going to claim that Al From and Bruce Reed are trying to get the applause of the far right?

  60. HA Avatar

    paul_lukasiak,
    these people are saying that their problem with the Democratic Party started when the Party took a firm and unequivocal stand on equal rights for African Americans starting in the mid-sixties….
    I get it. Disaffected white Democrats must be racists. Thanks for making my point for me.
    Nevermind that the Democrats invented Jim Crowe.

  61. carsonfire Avatar

    Yeah, all of us former Democrats are liars.
    Don: “For me it was in April, 1984 when I voted for Gary Hart in the Wisconsin primary, then attended the caucus the next Saturday and watched the party ‘regulars’ roll it up for Mondale – despite at least 40% attending being Hart supporters. That November I voted for Reagan.”
    That was probably similar to my timeline. I was never that happy with Carter’s administration, but I was disappointed as a very young Democrat (my whole family were Democrats, and more than half have converted since). I dutifully hated Reagan at first, because I was supposed to, but I was still in high school. By 1983, I was out of high school and I started becoming politically involved in Democratic meetings and primaries when I suddenly had a “what the hell am I doing here?” epiphany.
    Even though I wound up voting for Reagan, too, I never became a Republican. I was never worked up either way about Bush vs Clinton or Clinton vs Dole.
    But there is one man who almost made me convert completely to the Republican side, and that man is Howard Dean. If the fringe left was able to get their candidate nominated to run (no matter how conservative they claim he actually is, which is of course why the red hot fringe leftists love him *head spins*), I would have registered Republican in a heartbeat. I wouldn’t mind living in a world where Jeff Jarvis’ party has the White House (yes, even if it meant a President *gulp* Kerry), but I’ll be damned if I’ll live to see a Kos-approved administration. And I can’t say that I’m not considering registering Republican now as YAAARRRR! gains further inroads to power in what once was the Democratic party.

  62. J. Peden Avatar

    Just wait ’til the “Angry Dean” starts opening his mouth for more than 30 seconds at a time as DNC chair.
    He’s made about 95% of the country look like Einsteins already. Why leave out the remaining 5%?
    [It is possible that the Eason Jordan thing might get Dean defeated.]

  63. Mike S Avatar

    heh
    Maybe you can tell me where you were right and Dean was wrong.
    WMD’s?
    Iraq?
    The Deficit?
    Safer without Sadam?
    Mission Accomplished?
    I love it. You back a President that get’s most of it wrong. Dean may be angry but at least he isn’t stupid. And even if you are to afraid to say it, you know it’s true. As my step father said, Bush is the worst president in history. And he’s been a Republican since Ike.

  64. Eileen Avatar

    J. Peden,
    As to our little ‘aside’. I left here hours ago after reading your Additional(!) remarks, anguished. I cannot reread it even now to quote you for my reply. Suffice it to say there is not enough bandwidth…or I certainly wouldn’t impose on JJ in the process. This isn’t the time or place or thread to thoroughly discuss it.
    Moreover, to fully answer your additional claims of ‘fact’ re domestic violence in your message to me would take more out of me than I have to give at this moment.
    You know I have admired you here – as I have expressed it to you – as a very intelligent man. I dovetail with you on most issues and I understand your argument re ‘victimization’ re the Dems…but I think you chose the wrong example by using ‘feminists’ and domestic violence in the process.
    I understand why you don’t want to debate statistics with me. You cannot ‘level the playing field’ between the sexes on this issue by suggesting you could neutralize or neuterize them. It isn’t about demonization of one sex over the other, it’s about facts. Men beat up women 95% of the time. Talk to police, court systems, hospitals, women’s shelters, insurance companies, doctors (you say you’re one?)…
    Shall we discuss the several cases I’ve worked on as a court appointed criminal defense investigator on behalf of women charged with Murder while defending themselves against their batterers? They were all acquitted, but went through Additional Holy HELL in the process of getting there. Shall we discuss the fact that threats of death are NOT prosecuted in domestic cases? How about the fact that restraining orders aren’t enforced and women die anyway? Shall we discuss the fact that FEAR prevents women from going for help in the first place? In my own case, the father who killed his own child and who I Lived With was twice my size. Was I afraid of Him??? I changed the locks on the doors but he broke in anyway in a remote Idaho cabin. What utter irony that you bring up ID law. Shall we discuss the value of that strangulation law you mentioned? You bet, but there’s no time to do it here. Shall we discuss your preachy tone as you suggested I was ‘remiss’ in ‘allowing’ him back three weeks later to kill my own child and all the rest?
    Oh, and I need to ‘learn’ how to prevent this from happening again in my future.
    Thank you so very much Mr. expert on domestic violence, DR. Peden. Set up a blog, and I’ll go there. In the meantime, please spare me your omniscience on this particular topic.
    If you must have the last word, then by all means have at it. I won’t be back on this one.

  65. carsonfire Avatar

    Yeah, Bush is all wrong. That’s why he was reelected and Dean collapsed before he got out of the gate.
    I don’t back Bush 100% on everything, but his path is to gamble on freedom and democracy. Someone at TechCentral put it very well, recently: Woodrow Wilson wanted to make the world safe for Democracy; Bush wants Democracy to make the world safe.
    Bush is principled and ambitious; Dean is (this might hurt) a gadfly, like Bill O’Reilly, and he’s taking a lot of people for an angry ride to nowhere.

  66. J. Peden Avatar

    Eileen: read back. For example, I did not say you were remiss. I said “I am not blaming you for staying in the situation for another three weeks,…” I, of course, had no idea that he broke into a remote cabin you were in. At another risk of being critical, do you advocate women arming themselves? Do you still think locks keep people out of houses they really want to get into? Who taught you this?
    Sexist feminists also like this 95% figure, which they use elsewhere – for example, glibly or stupidly claiming that men thus perpetrate 95% of all the battering tactics whatever. This so obviously wrong or a bald lie that it is false on its face. [screaming, pursuing, name-calling, pathologic jealously/possession obsession, death threats, secret moniterings, using children, ad lib hitting, destroying property, refusing to give up the keys to the car, and on and on].
    My sister, who is very intelligent, does not know a man who has not been battered by his s.o. among those she knows fairly well. I can name many others, even really big men. She also admits to going through a long phase abetted by alcohol where she managed to get 3 men to attack her by harassing them. Two of them have probably never done any such thing before or after. She is practically a teetotaler now and is extremely circumspect, to say even the least.
    Talk about the King having no clothes!
    The 95% figure is at best an arrest record, which is lowering as we speak, since d.a.’s are now arresting both parties, or the woman, at an increasing rate. Men don’t make calls, men take falls, men get arrested when the woman attacked first and persistently [usually ex post facto when someone leads the beat up woman to the police]. men can’t get restraining orders, men are stonger than women, and, sorry to inform you of medical fact, but women do bruise much easier than do men on average, and on and on. [ Only anecdotally, I don’t bruise hardly at all. My wife got bruises from sleeping with her knees together. Many women wonder often where their bruses came from. I just had a friend of mine ask me about her bruises. She can only attribute them to something going on in her sleep. Oh, perhaps she is lying?]
    Did you know that women in America are killed by domestic violence at a rate equal to the casualty death rate in Viet Nam, 30/day? Did you know that alcohol does not play a role in domestic violence? Did you know that alcohol does not affect men but does affect women? Did you know that 32% of all E.R. visits are due to domestic violence? Did you know that little girls would be happy to suddenly wake up one morning as little boys? [This is news to the ones I asked.] Ad infinitum et ad nauseum, ad bullshitum.
    Dogma and bigoted blame schemes die hard and seem to be preferred by a lot of people, ala victimization attractions. I’m not going to live long enough to justify not calling a spade a spade.
    Did you know there is a provision in the Vawa which makes it not required that a man living in another state be informed of a restraining order against him, and that the restraining order can be obtained without even a police report or other charge? Try figuring out that thinking.
    Quite frankly, what you have shown me so far means you would lose the argument. The Elephant is now a herd.
    Why does the term “domestic violence” not apply to people killing their children, sibs, or parents? It used to. Blah, blah, blah, Etc..

  67. J. Peden Avatar

    Mike S: 1]WMD’s? I am not aware that Dean claimed WMD’s did not exist or would not be found. Otherwise, he along with Bush, of course, were the only two people in the whole world who knew they would not be found? How would Dean have known this if he did indeed say he did know it? Bush did not know it. Even Saddam seems to not have known it, judging by his strange actions. Why not comply with inspections?
    2] What about Iraq? Does Dean advocate pulling out? How is it judged a failure? No further attacks on the U.S.? Does Dean think Iraq is Viet Nam? [Ludicrous.]
    3] Deficit? When has there not been a deficit? Once in the last 15 years? [I’ll look.] How do you explain a 7 trillion dollar debt? This averages to a 300 billion yearly deficit over about 23 years. [By the way, the ss trust fund is considered a debt by the Government for this purpose.]
    4] Safer without Saddam? How not? Only because we couldn’t get any “safer” since Bush has a 100% effective record judged by the lack of attacks upon the U.S. over a nearly 3.5 yr. time?
    Dean also said the troops were safer or “helped”. Is it true? What does he now say? “Yeah, they were safer/helped for 2 hours”?
    5] Mission Accomplished? The aircraft carrier’s mission was accomplished. Did you think Bush meant to say the war was over? That’s your problem and the meme generator machine controlling your thought. Just thought you’d like to know. Every sortie or patrol is a “mission”. Are you saying the 6,000 troops on the carrier did not accomplish a mission or were not on one and returning from one? [Amazing!]
    Did Dean not quickly run his own campaign into bankruptcy? How would he deal with a deficit or avoid one?
    Why was he rejected in Iowa? Is he a great strategist?
    Did he not imply that OBL’s confession on tape to the world regarding 9/11 did not happen, saying he would let the jury decide his guilt, and did not want to prejudge Osama? My God! So just what is he capable of deciding? Did he think Osama’s confession might be thrown out because he was not read his Miranda rights? [Out to lunch.}
    Did he not say he knows his ideas are correct which pop into his mind because his “unconscious must have worked on them”? Is this not irrational? Does he judge his own pop-up thoughts at all, or are they correct merely because he thinks them? [Yeah, I’d follow him anywhere.]
    Did he say and tout his brand *new* strategy for getting red-state voters on line was to play upon their distrust of “big corporations”? Because trial lawyers go to Mississippi to find sympathetic juries? [Can you say “bizarre”?] And, right, I’ve never heard that one before.
    Did he say he didn’t have to know how many people were in the military because he was *only* running for the nomination to run for president, not really running for president?[MTP] Is this not totally bogus, and indicative of his neurotic and juvenile need to not be wrong via concocting false exculpations? Why didn’t he simply say to Russert, “Right, I’ll have to take a look”? Doesn’t he know this would have been fine?
    Did he say he was not going to mess with ss, then state policies which did? [Meet the Press, 6/03] Does he care about his own immediate self-contradiction? Does he care?
    Did he say he “hates Republicans” per se? At the same time as he woos them? Is this not self-contradictory or at least counterproductive, or only an appeal to irrational hate? How close is it to true hate speech?
    Did he say the second amendment is only a states rights issue?[MTP] Has he read the Bill of Rights? Does he understand what they really are? Does he know all the amendments to the Constitution cover all the states? He seems not to.
    Did he say the USSR still exists? Is this not a serious mistake for someone who claims to be of Presidential caliber? The USSR had only ceased to exist some 13 years earlier.
    Did he say he saved an 11 year old pregnant girl from the wrath of her father by not informing the father of the pregnancy? When this did not happen, and it couldn’t have happened?
    I’m just recalling these thing off the top of my head, and haven’t paid too much attention to Dean. But it’s going to be fun. Bush might make word slips, Dean has totally stripped thought gears. He has no coherent thought at all politically. Only hate and the appeal to hate. You think you’re going to win on this basis? [Actually, I don’t believe he hates Republicans even though he said it. I don’t think he hates anyone. Neither does Bush.]