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Take the pledge

67 comments on Take the pledge

Take the pledge

: In every campaign, we get to the debates and we come to that moment when one candidate — the most recently slimed — turns to his opponent — the most recent slimer — and challenges him to take a pledge to run a clean campaign.

It’s time to take the pledge now, boys.

But this time, it’s the voters who will turn to you and tell you to put down the rocks.

We have just 11 weeks left until we pick a President. We have huge issues to debate. We have unprecedented threats facing us. We have new opportunities as well. The last thing we need right now is more mud.

I was going to wonder this morning whether this was the dirtiest campaign in modern history. But then Layne reminded me of a few others (see below). Yes, there have been dirtier dirty tricks. But the tenor of this campaign and its coverage is turning unrelievedly slimy. Enough.

Put down the rocks. Tell your bullies to put down their rocks.

Take the pledge, boys.

67 responses to “Take the pledge”

  1. Matthew Cromer Avatar
    Matthew Cromer

    Issue # 1 is why the Dems nominated such a disaster for their candidate.
    Sorry, this is election for *President* and *Commander in Chief* in a time of war. Leadership, judgement and character matter more than policy prescriptions and proposals (which are really the domain of the legislative branch for the most part).

  2. sickles Avatar
    sickles

    Can you take the same pledge as well, Jeff?
    Like when someone you don’t care for, like Tom Ridge, instead of calling him “an incompetent dolt” maybe use more civil terms that don’t sound like, well, “more mud”.
    Why do I feel you “slimed” Tom Ridge? Well, for someone who’s”an incompetent dolt” I haven’t seen much, make that ANY terrorism on his watch. Seems pretty competent to me. But you “slimed” him anyway.
    So, please take the same pledge as well, Jeff, and help turn elections back into conversations about the future.

  3. sickles Avatar
    sickles

    But wait! There’s more!
    Fresh from the spittle of one of Jeff’s favorite bloggers, Ken Layne:
    http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/graphics/bushglobe.html
    At least Jeff isn’t doing the sliming, so his hands are washed.
    Honestly, Jeff, when you get all high and mighty about “mud” and “sliming” you sound like a class A tool.
    Your continued blogging about the freedom of the internet continues to be sensational; I suggest you stay on course.

  4. paladin Avatar
    paladin

    Bush has denounced the 527 ads -why hasn’t Kerry? Why is it that the Dems can dish out the slime, but they can’t take it?

  5. carsonfire Avatar
    carsonfire

    Gah, it really is so frustrating to hear these calls now, after months of wall-to-wall AWOL/MoveOn.Org/MichaelMoore/etc. Is anybody calling on Bruce Springsteen to back off?
    JJ, if this pledge were to magically happen, and the vets withdrew and agreed to be quiet during the rest of the election cycle… would Michael Moore’s film be withdrawn from the theaters? Would the DvD release be delayed until after the election, instead of right before it, as currently planned? Would MoveOn.Org stop calling Bush Hitler? Would celebrities stop acting in public as if they are more politically aware than the rest of us? Would the press suddenly ask Kerry the tough questions? None of this behavior would change on the left, not a bit of it!
    And so any mention of a pledge really is mightily disingenuous, as the only result would be to silence one set of voices — the vets.

  6. Jeff Avatar
    Jeff

    Wishful thinking Jeff. I think the tone of this election is being driven by the voters and not the campaigns this time around. Hatred of the right is driving the left. Fear of the left not defending America against Islamo-Facism is driving the right.

  7. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    This will never happen. Campaigns are built on negative ads, seems to me, they always have been. You can pledge all you want, but anytime you mention something unfavorable about your opponent, be it their record or something about their character, no matter how true, your opponent’s supporters will cry negative ad!
    And Jeff, who is doing what you call negative campaigning right now? Bush has already come out against all the 527 groups, why hasn’t Kerry? Bush asked for a stop to the swift boat ad (referring to it as that ad) and all other ads from the 527 groups, why won’t Kerry join him?

  8. Shawn Levasseur Avatar
    Shawn Levasseur

    Jeff, I know you don’t like the tenor of the Vietnam service issue. I have a solution.
    If news is a conversation, then change the topic yourself. Don’t complain that others are talking about topic X when you’d rather talk about topic Y. Just talk about Y, and encourage debate about Y.
    You are not going to change the fact that so many people want to talk about X. But you can fan the flames of conversation about Y.
    Don’t tell me that you don’t have it in you, because I can prove you do in two words… “Howard Stern”…

  9. rivlax Avatar
    rivlax

    When the heat turns on Kerry THEN the left gets concerned about 527s and “negative” campaigning. Typical.

  10. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Bush has called for an end of 527’s and has asked the Kerry camp to do likewise–as Cleland says ,”our 727’2 are OK” and Hollywood and the left have a dozen new mudslingers ready to roll–they just don’t like 527’2 which question them. It’s OK to claim someone pro-Bush made a false statement and at the same time have Tom Harkin sign the letter to Bush, Knowing that Tom Harkin is a liar who flew Mig fighters in Vietnam, in his dreams, but was never in Vietnam. What a crock of donkey doo doo.
    Did anyone see Ginsberg on ABC last nite with Chris–I was proud of him–a real class act. He certainly got the point of media bias and double standard across and made Chris very uncomfortable.

  11. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Sorry–527’s

  12. Sterling Avatar
    Sterling

    Jeff, in that case what would Kerry talk about? His “issue bag” contains just a couple of applause lines. He’s running on the Anyone But Bush platform, and his issues are completely meaningless if removed from that context.

  13. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Gee, the vets didn’t lie –will the media report this?
    {Kerry later added, “I also think men in the military, sir, as do men in many other things, have a tendency to report what they want to report and see what they want to see.”}
    http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200408\NAT20040826a.html

  14. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Bush can’t take the pledge, he needs vitriol and lies to distract from fact that he’s got no record to run on.
    -Unemployment up? Check.
    -Poverty up? Check.
    -Economy down? Check.
    -Disastrous foreign policy? Check.
    -Nonexistent domestic policy? Check. Oh wait – we did manage to take overtime away from the people who are lucky enough to still have jobs. And fuck the environment. We did accomplish that.
    It’s a good thing they’re loading up on racists and bigots at the convention. That’ll create more distractions.

  15. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Of course, Angelos, anyone who doesn’t toe the leftist line is a racist and bigot–that makes me one too, because I refuse to swallow your leftist crap. For a party that screams for freedom, speech is only free when I regurgitate what you shove down my throat–otherwise I’m a bigot.

  16. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Wait a minute Kat… who lied?
    From the AP:
    “I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia,” O’Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon.
    In an interview Sunday on ABC’s “This Week” O’Neill said: “Our boats didn’t go north of, only slightly north of Sedek,” which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border.

  17. ken Avatar
    ken

    Any politician who takes this sort of pledge deserves to lose for being dangerously naive. Mudslinging is nothing new. Here’s a clip from Detroit Free Press:
    “If elected, “murder, robbery, rape, adultery and incest will be openly taught and practiced,” the opposition said of Jefferson [in 1796]”
    Jefferson lost.

  18. Sterling Avatar
    Sterling

    Angelos, you’re projecting. We know exactly what Bush stands for and what he’s done. I don’t really see where you lefties have any business complaining about Bush’s domestic agenda – it’s been very moderate. The recent overtime changes were a compromise between business and labor, both parties wanted it changed, and it’s in the nature of “compromise” that both sides got less than they wanted.
    I’m quite happy with Bush’s foreign policy – although I would have preferred to see more action against Syria, Iran and North Korea by now, in addition to what’s been done in Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps after the election?
    Peter Kirsanow at National Review has written up a good list of questions for reporters to ask Kerry.

  19. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Kerry lied, that’s who. O’Neill WAS (Cambodian Incursion) in Cambodia–Kerry was NOT.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/rose/rose200404211228.asp

  20. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Who’s leftist? Certainly not me.
    Man, you really have no room for thought, just the lines you learned on Fox. Or, to use your words, what they shoved down your throat.
    Of course, you didn’t (because you can’t) actually deny that unemployment and poverty rose for the 3rd consecutive year in 2003. You can’t deny that the minimal growth this year even makes a dent in the losses insurred under your boy. And that the spurt he’s going to crow about next week has already petered out. That leading economists not on the Bush payroll are increasingly pessimistic about the state of the economy.
    You’ve got nothing.
    Here’s some of the “entertainment” we can expect to see at MSG:
    -Donnie McClurkin, one of the just-announced entertainers to be performing at the GOP Convention in NYC, thinks homosexuality is a “curse,” that it’s caused by men raping small children, that being gay is a choice, and that it can be cured. “I

  21. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    And what do you have–Bill Maher , Michael Moore, Hanoi Jane, etc.? Calling all Republicans racists and bigots makes you the racist and the bigot–you condemn a whole group because of the political party they support…that is bigotry.

  22. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Jeff, think to the negative things Bush’s campaign has said about Kerry: Kerry voted against defense things Bush felt were important, Kerry didn’t show up for Intelligence Committee meetings, Kerry reverses himself on many issues.
    Then think about the negative things Kerry’s campaign has said about Bush.
    Then consider the $1 million (barely) the Swift Vets have spent anti-Kerry, versus the multiple tens of millions spent by MoveOn.org, Media Fund, &c.
    Over the past year.
    I’m having trouble developing a lot of sympathy toward your sudden desire for the negative stuff to stop.

  23. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Sterling, are you nuts? Or are you volunteering?
    We don’t have enough troops in Afghanistan, and that country has devolved into a state worse than before. Instead of the Taliban killing people, it’s warlords and drug lords.
    We don’t have enough troops in Iraq, and day in day out the magnitude of our failure there is becoming more evident. We’ll be there for 10+ more years.
    You actually want to start more wars?
    What domentic policy? He’s done nothing. He’s abdicated all resposibility to do what’s right for the country – he is completely disienterested in anything that would require thought, intelligence, nuance. We have environmental policy being written by energy coalitions, called Clear Skies. We have forestry policy being written by logging companies, called Healthy Forests. Or park services and ranger programs are underfunded, including serious security problems. Of course, when someone spoke up, she was fired. Standard Bush policy. Under Bush, mercury has been declared non-hazardous. So, that’s the environment. AS IN OUR ACTUAL COUNTRY! That we had to attack Iraq to protect. So we can ravage it ourselves. It boggles the mind.
    I see you bought the Bush spin on overtime rules. Good…

  24. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Angelos–and you have swallowed Kerry’s flying pig,I mean dog, lies.
    Apparently John Kerry had told an animal rights organization some time back, before he decided to run for president, that in Vietnam he had a dog named ‘VC’. He tells the story of going down the river on patrol in his swift boat and hitting an underwater mine which blew ‘VC’ the dog off the deck and over on to the deck of another swift boat, which they were unaware of, and the dog was MIA for some time. Kerry should be writing fiction–not trying to be a leader.
    There is no record of Kerry’s boat ever hitting a mine nor does anyone recall him having a dog in vietnam.
    CNN

  25. chuck Avatar
    chuck

    So, what’s wrong with the campaign? Totalitarian states have clean campaigns, but any working democracy is going to have dirty ones. That’s just the way it is. To think otherwise is to fall into utopian fantasies, and the only way achieve such fantasies is to institute a dictatorship. The dirtiest campaigns I recall are LBJ/Goldwater, Kennedy/Nixon, and Bush/Dukakis, in that order. Democrats win two out of three awards for dirty campaigning! IMHO.
    Besides, it’s not as if the swiftvets are lying.

  26. robert Avatar
    robert

    It’s not the candidates or their close campaign associates who are solely to blame. The ones feeding the fire are the fringe people, who may or may not have indirect associations with the campaigns.

  27. Sterling Avatar
    Sterling

    Angelos – you’re not actually debating, you’re just typing “talking points” that anyone on Buzzmachine knows are aimed at undecideds who don’t pay attention to politics. We all know the mercury thing is a canard, and we all know that the economic recovery this year has been quite strong, but lagged on jobs creation.
    I don’t want to “start more wars” – I want to finish the one that started on 9/11. And that means we destroy the regimes that are willing and able to support asymmetrical warfare against the US, or tolerate the presence of those who would. I listed them. They have to go.
    I think Iraq is actually going quite well. Did you think it would be a cakewalk? If so you don’t know your history.
    I expect we’ll have a military presence there for 50 years, though perhaps only another two or three as guarantors of the peace. After that we’ll have air bases in Iraq, with which we’ll be able to maintain the peace in that part of the world. I’m not sure whether you lefties are willfully ignorant of Bush’s longer-term strategic goals for that region, or whether you’re really not smart enough to understand them.
    Bush goals are critical to America’s security, and yet you lefties keep messing around in it, slowing down the process and even making common cause with our strategic opponents. After watching the disgraceful, traitorous behavior of the left and the Democrats over the last few years, I can say without reservation that I will never vote Democrat again. Never. Not even on a local slate. I’m disgusted with you people.
    And by the way, if Bush did a wartime call for volunteers, as FDR did after Pearl Harbor, I would be standing in line at the recruiting station the next morning. So far he hasn’t done that. Otherwise I’m too old and beaten up to go through basic training. Why don’t you move to Canada if you feel so strongly about Bush? Or sign up with the Syrian army? Don’t try to paint me as not walking the walk – you’re the one who’s trying to kick the legs out from under the security posture of the country you live in.

  28. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Talking points? THAT’S the best you can come up with? From a supporter of the party that mastered the technique? Hello pot…
    I tend to think of them as empirical observations of what’s happened the last 3.5 years.
    That’s right, boy, if I disagree with Bush, I must be a traitor. That’s a good argument right there. Look, just admit it. You don’t have a leg to stand on, so you throw out conversation stoppers.
    Canada, Syria, more serious arguments. Think twice before you question my patriotism again. My patriotism is the exact reason I can’t stand to see Bush and his cronies destroy my country.
    I’m quite familiar with the history of war, good and bad. I know Japan wasn’t rebuilt in a day.
    But I also know that, if as you say this war started on 9/11, we went after the wrong people. But OK, can’t rewrite history, we’re there. Now what? Can the situation be more mismanaged? Can our troops be hung out to dry even more? Actually, things can and will get worse, because no one will apparently be held accountable for anything.
    Oh, and Kat? It took me 5 whole seconds to Google a picture of John Kerry and the dog, in the Mekong. Oops!

  29. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    {Can our troops be hung out to dry even more?} You need to ask Kerry that–he did exactly that to our troops in Vietnam, so he is an expert on that.

  30. John Avatar
    John

    Lynyrd Skynyrd, who is perhaps best known for Sweet Home Alabama (a celebration of George Wallace) and the confederate flag
    In Birmingham they love the governor
    Boo-hoo-hoo
    Now we all did what we can do
    Now Watergate doesn’t bother me
    Does your conscience bother you?
    — Sweet Home Alabama (1974)
    Angelos, do you get the connection between who the governor was in Alabama and what the words “Boo hoo hoo” and “we all did what we can do” are supposed to mean?
    Jeez, How freakin’ clueless can you get.

  31. Thomas Vincent Avatar
    Thomas Vincent

    Good idea Jeff, but I think if you had waited until after the Republicans had their convention it would carry more weight. Not that I think it will succeed regardless, but we can hope.

  32. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/3800.shtml
    Interesting—I wonder what terrorist states are secretly funding him.

  33. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    OK John,
    Sweet home alabama
    Oh sweet home baby
    Where the skies are so blue
    And the governor

  34. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Kerry hung our troops out to dry?
    Or did he serve his time, witness the atrocities of war, and come back to testify to them?
    Last I checked, he was there serving his country.
    That he wasn’t too pleased with the ugliness he witnessed (hey, Abu Ghraib ring a bell?), is that surprising?

  35. Rachel Avatar
    Rachel

    It’s nice to see how well we get along on this blog.
    P.S. To Angeleno: How will Bush destroy our country?

  36. shark Avatar
    shark

    So NOW that it’s John Kerry on the defensive- now you want a nicey-nice campaign. Nice that you kept your hypocracy to yourself when MoveOn was sliming GWB.
    Anyway, if you want issues, WHY ARE YOU VOTING FOR KERRY!!!!!! ALL HE GAVE US WAS VIETNAM.

  37. shark Avatar
    shark

    Jeff:
    I really want to know why you support Kerry. Please tell us why Kerry is better than Bush on these “issues”
    Lets discuss the issues here. Defend your choice- if you can

  38. Robert E. Bihlmayer Avatar
    Robert E. Bihlmayer

    “Sweet home alabama
    Oh sweet home baby
    Where the skies are so blue
    And the governor

  39. Andy Avatar
    Andy

    A CANDIDATE PLEDGE WILL FAIL
    It’s not a Kerry vs Bush issue.
    It’s a Kerry vs Karma issue.
    Kerry vs History is the conversation.
    Kerry shat on people in ’72. Then he shat on em again in ’04 with the Brinkley Book.

  40. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Angelos, Kerry hardly witnessed the atrocities he mentions in his testimony, he claimed to be speaking on behalf of others. And he also stated he exaggerated some of those claims.
    For any interested, I believe C-Span is airing Kerry’s 1971 testimony tonight at 8.

  41. shark Avatar
    shark

    Jeff, does your pledge mean that Howard Stern should stop giving Kerry an audio stroking and “sliming” Bush every day also? Just checking, since complaining about the tone of the campaign has replaced Stern adoration as your new area of focus :)

  42. Ethan Avatar
    Ethan

    Angelos, I’ll back you even if none of the rest of the people in here will. Keep up the good fight, just remember to attack ideas and not people (wasn’t that the thread of this to begin with anyway?)
    I’m not better off now than I was 4 years ago, the country is not better off now than it was 4 years ago, and the world is not safer than it was 4 years ago. Bush has not followed through with any of his election promises except for giving his friends tax cuts. Children have been left behind, we have become a nation building country, and we got pulled into a war in a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11. It’s time for a change.
    Somebody tell my why Bush should stay in office?

  43. Jeff Avatar
    Jeff

    > Take the pledge, boys.
    First: Define “slimed”.
    Does that include calling someone on their actions/inactions viz a viz what they’ve said ad nauseam in public in order to define their role as President, and being able to confirm those discrepancies?
    If so, then I’m afraid “sliming” away is not only correct, it’s the duty of every voter who gives a damn about the office of the Presidency.
    If, instead, you mean that people shouldn’t just make stuff up or bring up stuff that doesn’t accurately reflect on someone’s character as a public servant, I’m all for the pledge.

  44. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Ethan, we did not have a thought of a terrorist attack on our soil with the magnitude of 9/11 4 years ago. Bush has shown he is capable of taking the attack to the terrorists instead of waiting around for our supposed allies to give us the go ahead to protect ourselves. The war in Iraq is the next step in making our country safer by trying to change the idealogical way of life in Islamic countries. Will it work, I don’t know, we probably won’t know for years to come. But I for one think Bush is the right man to take the fight to the terrorists and not wait around for otheres to attack us.

  45. JohnC Avatar
    JohnC

    When Bush stops basing his ENTIRE campaign around bashing kerry then we can talk about pledges. Once bush and his right-wing reactionaries start talking about the issues and not attack kerry daily then we can talk abuot a pledge. The Repugs only know how to attack a person, its all they have ever done.

  46. Sterling Avatar
    Sterling

    Angelos – if you want to list concrete criticisms of Bush, go ahead. So far all you’re doing is mimicking Paul Begala on one of those witless cable screaming shows.
    And yes, I think actively undermining a war effort during wartime is treason.
    Kerry joined the Naval Reserve, for what it’s worth, in a very similar maneuver to Bush’s signing up for the Texas Air National Guard. It was a smart bet – Navy casualties were pretty low during Vietnam. But he was called up anyway, and then assigned to swift boat duty. It’s pretty clear at this point that he connived two Purple Hearts to round out the three needed for a ride home (four months of a 12 month tour is not “[doing] his time”). And then before his discharge – while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve – he met with the North Vietnamese in Paris, and participated in the “Winter Soldier” effort to undermine the US war in Vietnam.
    Now it’s payback time, as countless Vietnam vets are stepping forward to express their contempt for the man.
    Kerry’s going to lose, and lose big. The writing is on the wall.

  47. JohnC Avatar
    JohnC

    We didn’t have a 9/11 before bush was in office either.

  48. Ethan Avatar
    Ethan

    Mike,
    Bush didn’t take the attack to the terrorists, he took it to their neighbors. AND he managed to piss off a lot of our allies in the process. Why did we attack Iraq instead of the countries where the 9/11 hijackers came from? Why do we have so few military men (and women) looking for the man truely responsible for the attacks? We’ve been hoodwinked into all of this, and every time I thought to myself “this is it, this time Bush is going to make good on what he promised” it got screwed up. There was a point in time a few years ago when I though Bush was going to clean up Iraq, fix Israel, and catch some real terrorist leaders. Well, he caught a few of their henchmen, but the rest slipped away with bad management. I think Bush has proved he’s not up to the task at hand.

  49. JohnC Avatar
    JohnC

    It won’t matter in the long run, Bush is going to lose and probably by a large margin. Only 2 months to the election and Kerry is still beating bush in just about every swing state and every poll. Most voters don’t care about the Swift Boat liars or the garbage like that. They care about Job, the Iraq mess, Healthcare and ect. Bush is just out of touch with the mainstream. In his 4 years he hasn’t done 1 thing that could be called a success. Most political scientists and economists say bush is going to lose as well as what the polls are saying.

  50. h0mi Avatar
    h0mi

    Get some updated polls.

  51. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    JohnC – your last post couldn’t be further from the truth, take your head out of the sand and start reading something current, like the LA Times poll which shows Bush leading and the poll about how the Swift Boat ads are working, especially with veterans.
    Ethan – I would disagree with you that Bush took the fight to the terrorists neighbors. Everyone knew that the training camps were in Afghanistan where Bin Laden was hiding out. We are still there, working to find him and we have plenty of troops for that task. Attacking Iraq was the next step to get rid of a tyrant sympathetic to terrorists and try and obtain a democratic state in the region to help pressure other countries to try the same. Really, do you think the next step would be to invade Saudi Arabia?

  52. Sterling Avatar
    Sterling

    When I read comments saying that Bush’s whole campaign is based on smearing Kerry, I just have to shake my head. It’s projection.
    Kerry’s the one who makes baseless criticisms of Bush, but that’s part of the game. And so far there’s ONE little conservative 527 that’s been putting ads out critical of Kerry, versus several very well-capitalized 527s running ads attacking Bush. Bush hardly even TALKS about Kerry. I don’t have a problem with the negativity coming out of either the Bush or Kerry campaigns, though – well within norms.

  53. JohnC Avatar
    JohnC

    The LA times poll is the ONLY poll that has showed bush with any sort of lead this week. 5 polls show Kerry leading but 1 shows bush leading so he must be leading then? That and check the state poll, Bush is losing in all but 2 swing states. Most of those vets were going for bush anyway, a University of Pennsylvania poll shows the ads didn’t have any effect. Maybe you should stop being selective in your polling? But like I said before, Kerry has been beating bush since winter and his approval rating has yet to go above 50%. If bush is going to win, he’s going to have to gain tons after the RNC which I don’t see happening. Also the debates will come up, Bush can

  54. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    wrong again JohnC:
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm “>http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm
    And I’m sure more will follow, especially with the RNC coming up.

  55. PilotCman Avatar
    PilotCman

    Bush’s entire campaign is based on Kerry bashing. 80% of the Bush commercials have been Kerry Bashing as apposed to the less that 20% of Kerry

  56. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Dems are quick to claim they are being smeared but are blind to their own dirty tactics. Today I watched Paul Begalla and James Carville on CNN–what a couple of jackasses–they foam, froth, screech, interrupt, and call Rumsfield Dumsfield like some two year old kid. Then when Novak told him it was classless he started to scream Dumsfield over and over again like a frigging idiot. I thank God that not all left supporters are quite as juvenile as those we see in media–I must admit I have a ton of respect for the Instapundit guy and the Buzzmachine guy–they restore my faith and convince me that the Dems didn’t choose the donkey because of its other name.

  57. PRIM Avatar
    PRIM

    I’m always reluctant to comment when you already have received several dozen, because I may just be repeating someone else. I’m certainly not going to read all the comments to find out. But this time I’ll respond to your call for a truce.
    I don’t recall you making that suggestion when Kerry and the Dems were repeatedly distorting Bush’s Guard service. I missed it if you called on Kerry to do anything about Moore mania. And if you ever called on him to repudiate MoveOn or the other billionaire funded left 527s, that didn’t jump out at me.
    All Bush has ever said about Kerry’s Vietnam service was that it was honorable.
    But when Kerry is called to account by his contemporaries, who damn well DID serve with him, you call on both candidates to back off.
    My advice to you. Get it over with. Mail in your vote for Kerry as early as possible and go back to coddling Howard Stern. You are pathetically off key in your arrogant pretense of bringing rational commentary to the 2004 Presidential campaign.

  58. Ethan Avatar
    Ethan

    Again, Mike, could we stick to arguing about ideas and not get personal? (refering to your comments to JohnC)
    It looks like we don’t have enough troops if we still haven’t found him. Or is it just that one man can outsmart our entire army? Will he be found at the end of October, just in time for the election?
    The entire war in Iraq was decided on well before 9/11. Do you really think that the administration’s desire to attack Saddam was pure in it’s intentions? I’m not saying he wasn’t evil, and didn’t need to go, but lets be clear that it wasn’t for the reasons they (the administration) told us. Convenient that everything worked out for the people it worked out for.
    I don’t know about invading Saudi Arabia (we’re WAY too dependent on their oil and investments), but they do need to be dealt with. That is indeed a country that a) supports terrorists, b) has the training camps we attacked others to get rid of, c) is nowhere near becoming a democracy even though they talk a good game about doing so (they have been saying that for years with no results), d) has a huge population of angry arab men ready to take up arms against us, e) holds some, if not a great many, ties to the man responsible… the list goes on. So yes, I think we would have been much better off dealing with the problem of Saudi Arabia than creating problems in Iraq. I think in the long run it will come to a head in that part of the arab world more so than in any other part. There’s just no way that Bush was going to go after his friends, so he went after an old enemy.
    How do you see it differently? Do you think a quick attack on Afghanastan, then on to Iraq was the best way to do this (and on our own)?

  59. JohnC Avatar
    JohnC

    Its really funny, you republicans pick and choose polls. Kerry is STILL BEATING BUSH. He has more electoral votes and 9 out of 10 polls show he is still leading. Don’t expect a bounce from the RNC, the protests will probably be the most exciting thing there.

  60. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    “The swift boat liars are just that, LIARS and have been proven to be liars.”
    But are they liars?

  61. Chris Josephson Avatar
    Chris Josephson

    I would normally be someone calling for all the mud throwing to stop and just tuning out if it doesn’t. One of the reasons I supported Gore last time was the mud slinging (the mud slinging by the Republicans tipped the balance against them, for me).
    I was fed up with all the mud slinging aimed at the Clintons that had gone on for years. It was very tiresome. (I don’t mean ‘Monica-Gate’, I mean all the other the stuff that went on for years.. like “Which Clinton Killed Vince Foster?”)
    This time, I am sick of listening to all the accusations aimed at Pres. Bush that have gone on for years. Pres. Bush has been accused of some horrible things by the Democrats. It seems to make no difference what evidence is uncovered to prove them wrong, they keep it up.
    Now that some mud is being aimed at Kerry, it seems like an example of ‘reaping what you sow’.
    I would prefer to have a nice, pleasant campaign by each candidate so we can discuss issues. But it doesn’t bother me that much that Bush supporters are throwing their own mud and the Kerry folks are upset by this.
    No amount of pleading, by anyone, will stop what we’re witnessing now. The vets have decades of frustration they are venting and some of the Bush supporters feel it’s payback for the pummeling Bush took for the past years.
    As someone else said, if you want to talk about X and not Y, go ahead. Just don’t expect others will stop talking about Y.

  62. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Hey, Ethan, what else did you gleen from the National Inquirer? Stating that the “entire war in Iraq was decided on well before 9/11” ranks with “Woman Held Three Days At Alien Campsite”. It has no damn basis in fact. Got a verifiable link?
    John C, you’re picking the polls. Why bring Republicans into your agenda? But, more important polls are for fools. Also, a swarm of moonbats helped elect Nixon. Most Americans are far from excited by a sideshow of morons on stilts, with paper mache heads, frothing incoherently idiotic and hackneyed platitudes into a camera. Most of America doesn’t protest because they have day jobs. They do the mature thing, they shut up and vote.

  63. Sterling Avatar
    Sterling

    PilotCman – the only one who’s admitted to or been caught in any lies in the swift boat controversy is Kerry, who’s admitted he was not in Cambodia on Christmas 1968, AND refuses to say authoritatively that he was ever in Cambodia during his brief tenure in the war.
    I don’t think that what the swift boat vets are doing constitutes mud-slinging. Kerry got up there and made this campaign about his Vietnam service. A bunch of his compatriots from back then, and a lot of other Vietnam vets, then got up and said, “Hold on there, then.” That’s a reasonable part of the discourse. If Kerry made his campaign about his 19 years in the Senate – you remember his 19 years in the Senate, right? – then the conversation would be about that.
    Bush is going to get at least a 5 point bounce out of the convention, and I would be surprised if Rove doesn’t have a “November surprise” waiting for Kerry, just like Gore pulled the DUI thing out of his hat the Friday before the election last time.
    Also, Republican numbers are usually depressed in polls, due to the fact that GOPies are not home as much. Pollsters try to model around that, but they’re forced to err on the side of caution. My gut is that Bush is already on the high side of a four or five point spread. My call of the popular vote in November is a 12 point spread for Bush – 55% Bush, 43% Kerry, 2% other.
    (And that’s not even taking into account all the electronic voting machines we’re rigging.)

  64. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    ethan, first of all, I fail to see what sort of personal attack I made against JohnC (unless you think get your head out of the sand and read something current is an attack), if that’s the case you have to get some thicker skin. A personal attack would be more like I think JohnC is an incoherent lunatic who doesn’t know what he is reading.
    Anyway, your thoughts about the war on terror don’t lead me to believe that you have much of a grasp on what we are trying to accomplish over there. Also, your statements regarding the Iraq being planned well before 9/11 shows your ignorance as well. That’s an embarassing statement taken from the pages of Michael Moore, as was the Bush wouldn’t go after his friends line. Also your comment on going it alone should read going it without Germany, France, and Russia, don’t insult the other countries fighting with us.
    As for your other lettered arguments, you make some good points, it is my hope that the introduction of a democratic society in Iraq will help pressure the other countries to follow suit. That way, those who feel upset about lifestyles can protest their own country instead of attacking ours.

  65. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    Late to the party again! What can I say, the firewall at my job blocks Jeff’s site out, probably because it thinks “buzzmachine” is some sort of marital aid. An-yway…
    Having read the things Angelos has burped out here on this site over the months I have one question: does the Bush in his world have a pointy little beard like Spock did in “Mirror, Mirror”?
    As to Ethan, I’ll just address his original statement since nothing he said after that was much of a change from the original flatulence. He ranted:

    I’m not better off now than I was 4 years ago, the country is not better off now than it was 4 years ago, and the world is not safer than it was 4 years ago. Bush has not followed through with any of his election promises except for giving his friends tax cuts. Children have been left behind, we have become a nation building country, and we got pulled into a war in a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11. It’s time for a change.

    Well, I see a lot of sweeping statements with nil evidence or even links to further ravings to back it up which is the standard modus operandi of the loser leftie in an argument. Just make some sort of Moses-like pronouncement — “Children have been left behind!” — as if that simply took care of everything. Such tactics are certainly effective on the left these days, since they have long ago discarded things like reason and logic as inventions cooked up by the White Man to keep the People™ oppressed.
    Fortunately, I have long since joined the Oppressors, so I have the ability to ask Ethan why —
    — his not being better off is somehow George Bush’s fault. Since Ethan gives no details about what “I’m not better off” actually entails, I can’t accept his assertion just on his sayso.
    — when he trots out that tired old trope about the world “not being safer” I wonder just what he defines as “safe.” Or why that “safety” thing is so desirable beyond other things. There’s a relevant quote on safety versus liberty made by one of the Evil White Men that started this country, I’m sure someone here could look it up. (I would like to state for the record that I do not, in fact, either expect any administration to make me “safe” even within the bounds of my own definition of safety — and I believe that there really is no such thing as safety, at least not as a permanent, attainable state of being.)
    — what promises has Bush failed to fulfil (besides tax cuts to his “friends” — well then, Bush is a popular man), and is Ethan prepared to consider that the events of September 11, 2001 and the subsequent necessity to change gears to adjust to this situation might have something to do with these alleged “promises” being put on the back burner.
    — what children being “left behind” is he talking about? This is where further examples or links to articles may have come in handy. Otherwise I am afraid I am going to consider this an invocation of the “For the Children™” red herring and dismiss it.
    — it is a bad thing that we have become “a nation-building country.” I had so far gathered that the problem the Leftovers had with Bush was that he was reducing “sovereign nations” to tiny little bit with his nasty bombs. Now he is suddenly accused of “building” nations. The dude just can’t win with you guys. Of course, if Ethan is part of the Internationalist subset of the Leftovers then I can see why the thought of even more strong, independent nations governing themselves would bother him.
    — what on earth he means by “we got pulled into a war” with a “country that had nothing [histrionic emphasis deleted] to do with 9/11.” Well, as to the Saddam Hussein Was Playing With His Stuffed Animals on 9/11 Why Do You Bother Him argument re Iraq and 9/11 involvement — why do I get the feeling Ethan is majoring in Political Science? Only a Poli-Sci major could have such a basic misunderstanding of US/Middle East strategy. I’m a mere laywoman with hardly any interest in politics at home much less geopolotics and I get what the war in Iraq (which we were not “pulled into” unless that is some strange, new definition of “initiated” that I have not encountered in any dictionary).
    Anyway, I guess, Jeff, that the answer to your challenge — request — whatever — for both “sides” to quit mudslinging, is no. People are only nice and polite about things they don’t care about.

  66. Tom (American Voter) Avatar
    Tom (American Voter)

    Discussions in this thread dropped below the level of blathering sometime ago and seems headed to points unknown as far as I can tell.
    Adios folks. It was fun while it lasted but this debate is, was, and likely always will be pointless.
    ps. Have you seen the latest SwiftVets.com ad? The Internet really is routing around censorship of all types.

  67. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    What a liar he is. How could he write the crap he did??
    Retired rear Admiral Schachte to Bob Novak: “I was absolutely in the skimmer,” code-named “Batman,” in the early morning on Dec. 2, 1968, when Kerry was involved in the incident that led to the first Purple Heart.
    “Kerry nicked himself with a M-79 [grenade launcher],” Schachte told the columnist in a telephone interview from his home in Charleston, S.C.
    In his journal, Kerry said the incident took place near “the shore off a Viet Cong-infested peninsula north of Cam Ranh.” “My M-16 jammed, and as I bent down in the boat to grab another gun, a stinging piece of heat socked into my arm and just seemed to burn like hell. By this time one of the sailors had started the engine and we ran by the beach, strafing it. Then it was quiet.”
    What a crock–this guy needs a white padded room–not the Whitehouse. How can any self respecting person accept this?