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Not so swift

47 comments on Not so swift

Not so swift

: The real lesson of the whole Swift Board brouhaha is this:

America isn’t over Vietnam — not by a long shot.

I said when Kerry gave his acceptance speech and John-John salute in Boston that I couldn’t believe Vietnam had been rehabilitated as a word and a war in America. Well, I couldn’t believe it for good reason. What we’re really seeing in this alleged controversy now — besides mud-slinging for mud-slinging’s sake — is the old prowar and antiwar sides fighting over the war once more.

By emphasizing Vietnam, Kerry scraped the scab of the war. And then the Swifties — backed by Bushies — poured salt onto it. The wound is not healed. And it’s stinging again. If we’re not careful, it will start bleeding.

Nothing good is coming of this. It’s not illuminating anything about the candidates. Oh, you can screech at me all you want about this in the comments — Lord knows, you have — but all the screeching won’t tell me what to think. As a voter, I still say I don’t care.

I don’t care about the Vietnam war.

We are in a war now. We are in a war against terrorists and Islamofascists and for modernity and civilization and America. That is the war I care about.

You can blame whomever you want for this fuss and muss. I don’t care about that, either. You can argue that this is really about character — Kerry’s or Bush’s; I’ll have a fuller answer to that shortly.

And you can say it’s about media but note that news media are doing what news media should do: They are reporting. They didn’t just swallow what the Swifties had to say. They dug and found out that everything isn’t as the Swifties or as Kerry says; it’s never that simple, folks. So see the Chicago Tribune today, where one of Kerry’s men points to the untruths of the Swifties. See the Washington Post this weekend sorting through errors of fact or memory on both sides. See the New York Times Friday pointing to inconsistent statements of the Swifties and their Bush backing. Be careful what you wish for: Big news media is paying attention and it’s reporting.

But this argument can go back and forth forever and will we be one bit better off? No, we won’t be.

I watched the start of Meet the Press this morning (before the kids hijacked the TV for Sponge Bob) and not one second was devoted to how to improve the country, only to the mud.

Vietnam has moved on and we haven’t.

Meanwhile, there are issues pressing us today: the war on terrorism and terrorists’ war on us; health insurance; the economy; education; free speech; technology innovation; energy independence; and on and on. And we’re wasting sweat and bile over this. Throw away your WayBack machines, folks.

Vietnam is over. It’s the war we lost and we keep losing it.

: MORE: After writing this post, I read a comment left below by David Crisp, who seems to be editor of BillingsNews faulting bloggers of both sides on this story:

….bloggers have blown the Swift Vets story bigtime. I’ve been looking through the blogosphere for two weeks for even one fair-minded account of this controversy. Every place I turn, I find only pro-Kerry folks who think it’s a nonstory and pro-Bush folks who start with the assumption that Kerry is a liar.

That’s just garbage. I want the facts before I decide whether it’s a story. And I’m willing to entertain the possibility that Kerry might be a liar, but that’s not where I want the discussion to start.

To get a handle on where this story really stands, I have found no worthy alternative to the mainstream media. They may have moved more slowly than bloggers, but they did real reporting, added new information, put the issues in perspective and made sense of it all.

Maybe somebody in the blogosphere has done that, too, but I sure haven’t managed to find it. Maybe I rely too much on Instapundit. Please, somebody tell me where to find a balanced blog account. All I find is arrogance, flim-flam and self-congratulation.

What’s really sad is that bloggers and reporters could make great partners: reporters asking questions on the ground, and bloggers doing research and fact checking and creating a forum for discussion. I would love to run a tough story through a gantlet of concerned bloggers who would help me hone, focus and sharpen it. But as a working reporter, all I seem to get from bloggers is contempt.

If blogging is what we have to look forward to as a replacement for newspapers, then I think I’ll give up reading altogether.

47 responses to “Not so swift”

  1. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Yes, I agree with what you say. BUT—will Kerry cause us to lose this war as he helped lose the one in Vietnam?? Will he sell out America now as he did then?

  2. Karol Avatar
    Karol

    But haven’t you previously said you are voting for Kerry? And, as a voter (as opposed to what, a non-voting blogger?) wouldn’t it make sense to vote for the guy that, like you, doesn’t think we should rehash Vietnam? There would be no Swift Vet story if John Kerry didn’t decide that he he was going to make Vietnam, and nothing else, his major issue.

  3. Barry D Avatar
    Barry D

    Well, maybe some people are trying to tell you what to think, but I doubt it’s the majority of the commenters. They are expressing their perspectives which you graciously allow us to do. I don’t consider your blog as trying to tell us what to think.
    Crisp overgeneralizes both the blogosphere and journalism. There is starting to be some decent journalism on the swiftie issue, such as WaPo article this morning. But there has been a great deal of journalism around the issue which has brought nothing new or substantive to the table and has not handled the issues in a blanced way, and few journalists ever seemed to question any of this until it brewed on the blogosphere. Why not? Kerry kept talking Vietnam over & over. I mean it surely matters whether he made up accounts of CIA or Navy Seal dropoffs into Cambodia or not even if it’s not healthcare. He didn’t make a “little misstatement” about Christmas; it was totally off in fact and for what he was trying to imply and how he used it. Furthermore, there is still no staisfactory answer to it.
    As for the blogosphere, taking it in its entirety of course there are rants on both sides. But there has been very good analysis of information. Crisp should try Captain’s Quarters http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/ which is hardly a rant fest. As for “All I find is arrogance, flim-flam and self-congratulation.” Well his comments are about as self congratulatory as they come. I can understand that he feels his profession under attack, but he’s gotta do better than this.
    Crisp’s comment misses a crucial point of the blogosphere which is more about analysis than reporting (though some of that does happen). Too often articles in newpapers read as if the person has never used google. Much of the blogosphere involves multiple links to articles which appear in mainstream journalism. Crisp could be helpful if he could answer why so many reporters appear so eager to enter punditry and why so many newspapers have articles called “news analysis” which is almost nothing but punditry with almost nothing new and rarely enough of the facts which Crisp desires. At least on the blogosphere you can click to any blog in the world. But it would be ridiculous to buy a hundred newspapers to read their new analyses.
    He also posted this for bloggers to read on the internet. I guess he feels it’s good for something.

  4. Tom Grey Avatar
    Tom Grey

    Jeff, after this election, and Kerry THE LIAR loses, and the Leftist media is seen more as Dem Party hacks then as truth seekers, you’ll regret your disinterest.
    Kerry stated, on the public record of memory “seared … seared” into his mind, of being illegally in Cambodia in Christmas of 1968. This is the main, huge, telling lie. As you “almost know” — but you can’t know if you don’t look.
    Oh, yeah — Form 180. Why aren’t you calling for Kerry to release his records? Because you “know” he’s lying, and once he releases the records it will show his lie. And you hate Bush enough to vote for, and support, Kerry THE LIAR.
    I’m sorry to be upset now, because I like your blog so much, but it seems so obviously wrong here. Please, please consider: assume Kerry lied about Cambodia. Does that make him lose your vote? If not, why not? If you don’t know he lied, why aren’t YOU calling for Form 180 from Kerry?
    You’re also wrong, very wrong, about getting over Vietnam; just like you’d be wrong if you said we need to get over WW II. In WW II we were fighting for freedom, against evil … fascism (national socialism). In Vietnam we were fighting for freedom, against evil … communism. We left SE Asia, the evil commies won, and murdered millions. The “moral superiority” of the anti-Vietnam war folk are based on this choice:
    1) Stay & fight in Vietnam, or
    2) leave and let (evil) commies win (and commit genocide).
    War or Genocide? All anti-war folk supported the choice towards genocide, in Cambodia. In Rwanda, again the anti-war folk supported genocide, and a fine apology.

  5. Brett Avatar
    Brett

    Wow… as I read Crisp’s statement, he wants the bloggers to do the “research and fact checking and [host] a forum for discussion,” but he wants to ask the questions on the ground.
    That’s not a partnership because there’s a problem of equity. He wants to get paid for his half of this partnership as his day job. But few bloggers make any real money at this and we all have day jobs – so it’s our time-consuming hobby in our off-hours.
    His assertion of partnership is ridiculous on its face. Since when was journalism just showing up and asking questions? What happened to background and research to ask better questions? What happened to follow-up? And their forums are broken? Why should bloggers host the free-for-all discussion? (I have a hunch as to why, but I’ll let that go…)
    I don’t get paid to research the things I post. And really, I don’t have time to research. But I do it because I want to know the issues of this election, which is why over at my blog I’m going through these things as honestly as I know how. I post because it might help others and I get informed by going through the process.
    Did Crisp read your humility post, Jeff?

  6. Harry Avatar
    Harry

    “And you can say it’s about media but note that news media are doing what news media should do: They are reporting. They didn’t just swallow what the Swifties had to say. They dug and found out that everything isn’t as the Swifties or as Kerry says; it’s never that simple, folks.”
    Damned odd that it was, seemingly, “just that simple” when the subject was Bush’s National Guard Service. And Bush never made his Vietnam era service, or anything having to do with Vietnam, part of his portfolio. Vietnam is Kerry’s ENTIRE portfolio. God help him when the Bushies get around to running ads about Kerry’s Senate record.

  7. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    Is this the same David Crisp who blogs at http://billingsnews.blogspot.com/

  8. Harry Avatar
    Harry

    Come to think of it, Jeff: given your blogvangelism, you should be turning handsprings over Big Media’s transparent support for Kerry. By the time this election is over, half the population will have abandoned any semblance of trust in the most offensively partisan entities (e.g. the NYT, WaPo, LAT, the AP and Reuters, the big nets), and a lot of them will transfer their current events reading to nontraditional internet sources. I don’t think that’ll be a good thing, personally, but it’s what’s going to happen.

  9. Andy Avatar
    Andy

    Once Again, Adult Journalism proves that it cannot seperate “The Story” from “Reaction to The Story” and the writers “Opinion about the Reaction to The Story” (I say Adult Journalism as they treat all blogs a Childish Endeavours)
    Sloppy editing or sloppy writing?
    Most likely merely lazy habits due to lack of competition and “We All Know The Facts Anyway” arrogant attitude.
    Conversations are between peers and flow two ways.
    Pronouncements come from On High and do not need audience participation just compliance.
    You may be right about Vietnam. The incident reports of Stolen Valor keep rising. The anti-War protests are re-cycled from long ago. Kerry’s rhetoric (“Bring the Troops Home”) is a direct connection to those times.
    I haven’t heard the Vietnam rhetoric fom the Bush campaign. Can you cite me some sources? No, not the anti-Kerry 527’s but the real Bush/RNC Vietnam references.
    With $170+M Raised and $62+M spent by anti-Bush 527’s the race should be much less close. The Pro Bush 527’s have raised only $10+M. The largest Pro-Bush donor has given only $1+M. The two largest anti-Bush donors have contributed $24+M (Soros and Lewis).
    The reporting on the funding, the issues, the stance of the two campaigns does not seem either balanced or fair. Luckily the blogs have filled the need to report The Story, The Reaction to The Story and provide Opinions on both.
    Why was it we needed the Press?

  10. Leonard Witt Avatar
    Leonard Witt

    Hi Jeff:
    To say that John Kerry opened this Vietnam discussion ignores that fact that the same Republican operatives have been disparaging the records and personal lives of Vietnam War heroes since 2000, when they started with John McCain. See this as an example.
    Then they did the same thing to Max Cleland.
    Read this account from Ann Coulter about ex-senator Max Cleland of Georgia:
    Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends…Cleland wore the uniform, he was in Vietnam, and he has shown courage by going on to lead a productive life. But he didn’t “give his limbs for his country,” or leave them “on the battlefield.” There was no bravery involved in dropping a grenade on himself with no enemy troops in sight.
    Of course, the upshot is if you get wounded multi times or lose three limbs as Cleland did, you cannot be counted as a hero.
    And it is about the Iraq war now. If you are in Iraq and you get taken prisoner, you get shot or accidentally a grenade blows off your hand, keep it to yourself. Don’t take a medal, for some day a political operative might use it against you–or worse yet try to make you look like a fool.

  11. Walsingham Avatar
    Walsingham

    Careful, Jeff, if you care any less you are going to have a stroke.

  12. Tom Villars Avatar
    Tom Villars

    I watched Fox News Sunday and they did a really good piece on this whole debate. Chris Wallace was merciless in questioning both sides and the panel discussion was the same as. The story got the respect it deserves and I plan to send a thank you note to Britt Hume for helping to make that happen.
    Jeff said, “Vietnam is over. It’s the war we lost and we keep losing it.”
    As the war we lost, it seems likely that anyone we are fighting now or in the future is likely to pattern all or part of their strategy on Vietnam. Economically and militarily the US is an unchallenged hyper-power and is likely to remain so for some time. It is only politically that the US is vulnerable and SwiftVets are making that point by showing how the mainstream media with help of people like John Kerry lost the Vietnam War. Now this may or may not be true, but to suggest it is a non-issue points out the political vulnerability is real if we can’t even discuss what went wrong the last time the US lost a major conflict.

  13. BarCodeKing Avatar
    BarCodeKing

    Big Media (the elite newspapers, the broadcast networks and CNN/MSNBC) ignored the story for two weeks, trying to bury it like a cat in a litterbox. When that didn’t work, they didn’t have the integrity to investigate the serious allegations the Swift Vets have made, but instead chose to attack the messenger. They have shown themselves to be shills for Kerry and the Democrats. I have zero respect for their professionalism any more.
    Nobody from the Democrats complained when the anti-Bush 527 groups spent over $100 million on ads bashing Bush. Nobody from the Kerrry was appalled at the Michael Moore crockumentary. No, they lapped it up, and even invited Moore to sit in the Presidential Box with Jimmeh Carter at the DNC. But you didn’t see the President crying to Kerry to “make them stop!”
    But now Kerry blusters “Bring it on!” and then immediately turns around and whines “make them stop!” What a wimp! If he can’t stand the heat and answer the questions, how will he stand up to the Islamists who want to kill us?
    Yes, this is the story of the campaign, because Kerry MADE it the keystone of his campaign. If he lied about his record, that’s pretty damned important. Our last Democratic President had problems telling the truth. We don’t need another one like that.

  14. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Blogging is no different than gossiping at work, at parties or around friends and playing the “telephone game” with a bunch of drunk friends.
    The best blogs are for the insights of the bloggers themselves and not self references to each other. They are more like op-ed writers than journalists. Anyone who thinks “bloggers” are equivalent to news journalists might want to take another year of their home schooling program – oh, maybe a media or comparative social studies class might not be offered there.

  15. Tom Grey Avatar
    Tom Grey

    Tom Villars, thanks for nicely putting it:
    “It is only politically that the US is vulnerable and SwiftVets are making that point by showing how the mainstream media with help of people like John Kerry lost the Vietnam War.”
    The media lost the Vietnam War = helped evil commies to win, to commit genocide; the media supported the genocide option. The media does NOT want to go there… but we need to.
    Would Michael Moore risk his son to stop genocide? THAT is the question, unasked, and so far unanswered.

  16. Dean Esmay Avatar
    Dean Esmay

    With all due respect to David Crisp, if he honestly thinks the discussion in the blogosphere about the Swifties has been “Pro-Kerry folks who think it’s a nonstory and pro-Bush folks who start with the assumption that Kerry is a liar.” Really? He hasn’t read my blog then, and he certainly hasn’t read a couple of the others out there.
    As I’ve said many times on my own blog, these guys may be liars but look at who they are, at ALL OF THEM and not just a couple.
    What has been instructive for me has been the DIFFERENCE between how the Plame crap was covered by the big media, how the Halliburton and Harken stories were covered, and how the Bush AWOL story has been covered, vs. the complete stony wall of silence on these guys until finally the Big Media, instead of just reporting the allegation, went after these guys’ credibility FIRST.
    I and others have admitted openly that accusations about the medals are discomforting and probably not wise to be bringing up. That the bigger issues all surround Kerry’s leaving combat 8 months early, and then saying vicious, horrible things about the men he fought with when he got back.
    It has been equally instructive to watch the Kerry camp respond. First by saying these men never served with him (yes they did), then saying they were all lies and threatening to sue anyone who showed the ad, then quietly admitting that some of the Swiftie allegations are correct, and so on.
    Has it been horrible? Yes. On the other hand, these campaign finance “reform” laws made all this possible, and unless someone can prove that Bush and Rove really coordinated these attacks, the fact is tha this is a group that deserves to be heard.
    And they’re mad about a lot of things.
    Kerry made this about Vietnam. Don’t, please don’t, forget to acknowledge that. If he hadn’t done that, a lot of people would be a hell of a lot less interested in this story.

  17. carsonfire Avatar
    carsonfire

    Maybe the debate we want, which is who would be a more effective leader in the war on terror, isn’t happening because there is nothing there really to debate. If we focus strictly on modern day issues, we have a President who has been proactive, if flawed; on the other side, we have a Senator who has a record that shows him to be not much more than a political opportunist.
    This is why Kerry concentrates on his Vietnam experience, and why there is not much else for the right wing to do but to challenge him even on that, as it appears that he’s not exactly Sergeant York.
    Bush seems to be more than willing to debate the current situation; it’s Kerry who can say no more than “I could do it better — because I was a war hero in Vietnam”.
    Kerry could make this go away in a minute if he simply said “heh, we old soldiers remember things differently. But that’s not really important. Here’s what I’ve done recently to strengthen the country, and here’s what I plan to do — specifically — to make things better.” But I think we all know he can’t do that, and why. He can only obfuscate his recent record, which shows him to be a bad choice for commander-in-chief during these times, and speak in vagueries about what he would do in the future, as he is not a proactive personality and has no more bold ideas about the future except how to turn the phrase “bold new ideas about the future” in front of an audience.
    The bloggers aren’t to blame for this situation. If an honest debate on the real issues were held, Kerry would be too fast toast.
    So is the right wing making a tactical mistake in letting Vietnam be the issue? I really don’t think so. If this all weren’t brought to light now, Kerry would be free later to filibuster every question in the Presidential debates with “Vietnam!” Making Vietnam a non-issue for Kerry now will eventually *force* the debate to return to where it belongs.
    When the debates are held, with Vietnam removed as Kerry’s hammer, they will concentrate solely on Kerry’s weakness, which is the now. He won’t be able to fill his time with endless obfuscations about his Vietnam service, and so he will be forced to talk about the details: military spending, strengthening intelligence operations, etc. None of this is good for Kerry, whose record on these issues is rotten. He will have to convince the public that he will be a completely different guy if elected. You’re not electing John Kerry, you’re electing Chandu the Magician!

  18. Doug Kenline Avatar
    Doug Kenline

    this David Crisp idiot needs to start his own blog…..what is he? so incompetent that he can’t even start his own blog? why doesn’t he just become a blogger? he’s blaming the technology….maybe it’s just that nobody so smart as David Crisp has started using this technology yet……why don’t you start your own blog David Crisp and show us how it’s done.

  19. cardeblu Avatar
    cardeblu

    Jeff: “By emphasizing Vietnam, Kerry scraped the scab of the war. And then the Swifties — backed by Bushies — poured salt onto it.”
    Exactly! Don’t you know that salt heals…
    To further the analogy: The wound has been present for all of these years and merely covered by the scab of time. Oh, it had been picked at the edges a few times in the fairly recent past on all sides but never fully unroofed.
    This time, however, Kerry (un?)wittingly scraped off the scab, exposing the still-festering wound caused by the deep-seated anger and shame felt by all involved. The treatment started by the SBVT may sting like hell for quite a while, and some lemon juice might be added to the mix as well, but I think it’s actually a good thing for the country that this is happening. Those who had been spat upon, screamed “baby killer” at and publically disparaged by their own “brethern” are finally getting their say. Thank you, JF’nK.
    After this is over, comes the hardest part: We’ll have to decide if we’re going to let it air dry out in the open, or bandage it with some “honey” for it’s natural antibiotic effect, or simply cover it with a Band-Aid and hope it will go away–again.

  20. Doug Kenline Avatar
    Doug Kenline

    bush and kerry are both liars……vote michael badnarik for president……..
    http://badnarik.org/blog/

  21. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    I agree–we can’t just sweep this under a rug. We deserve some answers–before it’s too late and this guy is negotiating with present day terrorists and blaming us for 911 because of our insensitivity to jihad or some such crap.
    {“John Kerry ravaged the souls of people,” said Mr O’Neill, his face trembling with rage as he talked of events that happened more than 30 years ago. “I don’t really care about the presidency, but that is why I will do everything I can, whatever it takes, to stop that man becoming commander-in-chief of our armed forces.
    “I am not a Republican. I tend to support the Democrats more than the Republicans at home in Texas, and in this election I would have voted Democrat. I would vote for John Edwards [the vice-presidential candidate] for president. But I will do everything I can to stop John Kerry.”}
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/08/22/wus22.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/08/22/ixportal.html

  22. meep Avatar
    meep

    Jeeez. Boomers.
    Vietnam was over before I was =born=. And boomers =still= think they’re the center of America. Well, I’ve gotta say, not for much longer.
    Most people my age don’t even know what the whole Vietnam thing was about, and why it’s considered a “bad” war compared to those “good” wars. What’s the diff between Korea and Vietnam, I’d like to know, other than in Vietnam we let the commies win?
    You know what this reminds me of? “The South Will Rise Again” nuts. Think of the bitterness of the old confederate vets that festered for years… and the South remained a backwater until it gave up that confederate outlook and decided to join the 20th century and become a magnet for business. Are boomers going to be eating their livers in retirement because of Vietnam? Sounds like it to me.
    Looking at my mortality tables (I’m an actuarial-type), I note that boomer deaths are really going to pick up over the next couple decades. I’m hoping that will finally get people to shut up about Vietnam. I notice that generation Xers (my generation) don’t go on about this crap – unlike the children of the confederates, we’re not carrying this forth to future generations. So I guess the boomers should wallow in this while they’re still alive, because their children sure won’t.

  23. vnjagvet Avatar
    vnjagvet

    Unfortunately, the democrats selected the wrong guy. And he selected the wrong theme for his campaign. I am a witness, and am a part of a demographic cohort that cannot buy that act.
    I see the SB controversy as a vehicle through which a battle for hearts and minds is being fought.
    I am a 64 year old moderate a “Sam Nunn” democrat or a “John McCain” republican who (in Taranto’s memorable phrase) by the way served in Vietnam. I am at the old side of the baby boom. When I returned home back in May 1968, I wanted to “move on”.
    I have supported mainstream democratic candidates for years and some republicans as well. But I cannot support this one.
    The latest SB ad expresses the reasons I cannot. is impossible for the Kerry campaign to defend. In one minute, it expresses the hidden emotions I and many of the surviving 3,000,000 men who actually served in Vietnam feel. This is not about questions of fact that reasonable people differ on (like the medal controversy). It is about raw emotion and repressed emotion at that. When that emotion is awakened it will not rest until the problems giving rise to it are resolved.
    John Kerry chose to run this campaign on his perfomance as a VN vet. His problem is that while still serving as a commissioned officer in the United States Naval Reserve (this fact has been established beyond a reasonable doubt in the documentation on the Kerry website), he consorted with the enemy and spread the enemy’s propoganda. He was not only a spokesman; he was a leader in that effort.
    He gave fuel to those who flamed young soldiers and sailors returning from VN to the USA. They have not forgotten.
    “Reporting For Duty”, indeed.
    Jeff, I read your blog every day. You are one of the greatest voices of the web. Please read Roger Simon’s and Captain Ed’s comments threads on these issues since they surfaced. I think you will get a feel for the depth of feeling this stuff has unleashed.

  24. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Yeah, meep. WW2 was over before I was born and some people still want to talk about the Holocaust while others want to just move on or pretend it never happened.

  25. Lynxx Pherrett Avatar
    Lynxx Pherrett

    Come on, folks, you gotta give Jeff credit for one thing: he runs with the DNC talking points just like a pro.
    “So see the Chicago Tribune today, where one of Kerry’s men points to the untruths of the Swifties.”
    The Kerry camp first attacked the SwiftVets with they didn’t serve with Kerry because they weren’t on Kerry’s boat. That didn’t gain traction with many people beyond Atrio’s crowd. Now that Rood has written an article, he’s suddenly “one of Kerry’s men” according to Jeff, though he didn’t serve on Kerry’s boat, either.
    No doubt Jeff, if he responds, will play that off as a minor mistake because he hasn’t been following the issue.
    But it is that kind of purposeful mistake that has become a staple of the Kerry campaign.

  26. vnjagvet Avatar
    vnjagvet

    MEEP:
    With all due respect. I have earned the right to make my decisions on issues I believe important. I am not trying to convince you. I am not asking you to support my view. I am trying to explain why some of us feel as we do. This is one of several places on the blogosphere where that can be done without fear of flaming.
    I am not “over it” yet. While JFKERRY is running, I will not “move on”. I am pretty sure I am not alone.

  27. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Ho Chi Minh was a hero of Kerry’s. He equated him with George Washington–I wonder whom he equates Al-Sadr and other terrorists with?

  28. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    Man, you’re only proving Meep’s point, people.
    See also Anil’s comment in the post above.

  29. david Avatar
    david

    Jeff it’s funny how you twist the truth to make Kerry look bad…here you say “So see the Chicago Tribune today, where one of Kerry’s men points to the untruths of the Swifties. ”
    when you know it is an editor at the Chicago Tribune and he isn’t one of Kerry’s men…he was not on Kerry’s boat! How you fail to neglect that this guy is an editor (which would give him a bit credibility) and NOT someone tied to Kerry shows your obvious bias against Kerry. Shame on you!

  30. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    This guy is tied to Kerry. He was asked by Kerry to go public. Problem is, Rood doesn’t much contradict what Unfit for Command claims–except that the guy Kerry shot in the back was a young adult and not a teen.

  31. carsonfire Avatar
    carsonfire

    As far as I can tell, Meep’s point seems to be that it’s OK to be ignorant and unconcerned about history and issues if you can invoke the spirit of Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies to make legitimate concerns over a presidential candidate seem like a form of insanity.

  32. David Crisp Avatar
    David Crisp

    Barry D. asks why so many reporters are eager to enter punditry. Simple: It’s easy and fun. Reporting is real work and only sporadically fun.
    Brett would worry less about equity if he could see my paycheck. Look, Brett, I’m not asking bloggers to do my job. The point is that the blogosphere incorporates a whole world of expertise that could be invaluable to reporters if there were not so much pointless hostility between the two camps. Reporting isn’t “just” about showing up and asking questions, but that’s what a whole lot of it is. Time for reflection, research, backgrounding, follow-ups and idle Googling is hard to find.
    Kim correctly surmises that I am the proprietor of http://billingsnews.blogspot.com. Doug Kenline is less astute.

  33. Kalroy Avatar
    Kalroy

    Every place I turn, I find only pro-Kerry folks who think it’s a nonstory and pro-Bush folks who start with the assumption that Kerry is a liar.
    That’s just garbage. I want the facts before I decide whether it’s a story. And I’m willing to entertain the possibility that Kerry might be a liar, but that’s not where I want the discussion to start.

    Seems to me that he hasn’t been reading the blogs or he would’ve gotten the facts about Kerry’s Cambodia claim, or his health-care claim, or Kerry’s attempt to silence free speech he doesn’t like.
    Kalroy

  34. SWLiP Avatar
    SWLiP

    Jeff:
    For someone who insists that this is a non-issue, it seems to get a lot of coverage on your blog.
    Kerry’s decision to emphasize his Viet Nam service opened a whole can of worms, but I can’t fault the Republicans (and like-minded citizens) for accepting the invitation to examine Kerry’s relationship to that war in its totality. Unfortunately for Kerry, the picture that emerges is not that of a man who served selflessly and then moved on, but of a shameless opportunist who has been so willing to exploit his Viet Nam experience that his many inconsistent representations on the subject seem to matter little to him. We’ve all told “big fish” stories, but the fact that Kerry apparently embellished his war record on the floor of the Senate, and in such a falsifiable manner, suggests a serious character flaw.
    The controversy has also baldly exposed the partisanship of the mainstream media, which has been highly selective in how it reports this story, and which has been more than willing to engage in disgusting smear tactics of its own, witnessed here and here.

  35. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Kerry is running as Vietnam Vetran and on his medals earned there.
    Why?
    In 1992;
    Bill Clinton, draft dodger, beats Bob Kerrey, Medal of honor winner in Vietnam.
    Bill Clinton, draft dodger, beats George H. Bush, President of the United States and WWII hero.
    In 1996;
    Bill Clinton, draft dodger, beats Bob Dole, hero in WWII who was permantely crippled in his left arm.
    In 2000;
    George W. Bush, draft dodger, beats Senator John McCain, Medal of Honor winner in Vietnam.
    George W. Bush, draft dodger, beats incumbent Vice President and Vietnam Vet Al Gore.
    Draft Dodgers vs Heros/Vets
    5 wins 0(ZERO) losses
    Vets vs. Draft dodgers
    0(ZERO) wins 5(FIVE)losses.
    Conculsion: Kerry is an idoit to run as a Vet.
    Prove me wrong please.

  36. pepita Avatar
    pepita

    It’s too bad the mainstream media or those within the democratic party didn’t press Kerry harder to sign the 180 so that there could be a full review of his military and medical records much earlier in the process. Kerry should have duked this out during the nomination process. Kerry erred in April when the records were partially released, it only allowed for speculation to build.
    You can yell at the bloggers for stoking this story, you can yell at the public for following the story, you can yell that its not relevant to today but we are here because the vetting process was stifled.
    Kerry needs to make a McGreevey speech where he fesses up, “I was arrogant, I was ambitious, I gamed the system to get shipped home early, I testified erroneously before the Senate in 1971, I had to no right to meet with negotiators in Paris, at 27 I thought I knew more than I did…but this is what I intend to do for our soldiers in Iraq today.” I’m fairly certain the Anybody But Bush crowd would rally behind him.

  37. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    “While I don’t agree with Bush on a single domestic issue, they are all trumped by the issue of terrorism, where he has enunciated the Bush Doctrine and proven his ability to fight this war”. “The Democratic Party just doesn’t have the stomach to go after terrorists.”
    Former New York City Mayor Edward Koch, a Democrat, who will for the first time in his life vote Republican.

  38. Brett Avatar
    Brett

    Hi David,
    Funny about your paycheck… ;)
    You mention “pointless hostility.” And yet, you said this, as quoted from Jeff:
    “Please, somebody tell me where to find a balanced blog account. All I find is arrogance, flim-flam and self-congratulation.”
    I don’t think this kind of broad brush comment salves the hostility. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with your comment that the blogosphere “incorporates a whole world of expertise that could be invaluable to reporters.”
    I agree with you that there can be a partnership. That would be wonderful and communal, but I don’t think it would work as you’ve mentioned for the reasons that I stated.
    Here’s what I recommend. I look forward to your response.
    1) Begin hosting an open forum to adjoin each article on your news web site, just as you suggest bloggers do. This places the conversation at the reporting of the story.
    2) Find bloggers, preferably local to you and with opposing points of view, who can do additional research on a story. You vet the research and writing just as you would with any other writer and post that with the story.
    3) Let readers weigh the slant of a given writer/newsfeed/reporter and post that averaged measurement with the byline, like you see beside an eBay auctioneer.
    4) Let local folk blog an event that happened to which a reporter could not be sent.
    5) Let readers “tip” a blogger through your web site, if they think the person does an exceptional job reporting or giving analysis.
    You do these things, and I’ll bet your newspaper is the hottest ticket in your town.

  39. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    FYI Everybody: This about poster Dean.
    This was my last response to him, which he never got because he blocked my e:mail.
    I am posting it here to show that when presented with the facts, Dean runs.
    My advice, don’t bother with Dean’s postings and don’t waste your time e:mailing him.
    Fascinating, I said absolutely nothing about the EPA and Surgeon General becoming politicized, never mind with non-scientific religious ideas.
    Why do you assume that?
    It is the nature of the Government, regardless of the party in power, to justify its existence and push for greater power, by promoting the value of studies and reports that are based on weak, if not non-existent, evidence.
    What does the Surgeon General do? If it was abolished tomorrow the immediate effect on your life would be zero. The indirect effect on your life or your families life, now in five years in ten or twenty would be zero.
    If anything, we would be better off because less government means less tax burden means more time we can enjoy are earnings.
    You pointed to the website, you exclaimed that second hand smoke kills, therefore you take responsibility for the nonsense, to a certain degree, that the EPA and that website promote.
    Its that simple.
    As for the website and the article, wow, its weak really weak. Very surprised on the lack of scientific information and/or no mention of studies that follow the scientific method.
    But then again, that says it all right there, doesn’t it?
    Common sense says it does.
    Sum it up: No proof that second hand smoke causes 3,000 cancer deaths or 53,000 lethal heart attacks a year to non-smokers. NONE, NADA, ZIP.
    In a message dated 8/22/2004 1:54:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, DeanHobart writes:
    Why would you ask me, an individual person you don’t even know and don’t know my background about these studies instead of reading the EPA study yourself and deciding?
    The page is not meant to proove anything, it is just relaying information from the EPA. Although I agree with you that the EPA and Surgeon General’s Offices have become very politicized under the Bush Administration with non-scientific religious ideas, I don’t think getting rid of Bush would change it that much under Kerry – it would probably be an agenda the other way.
    In a message dated 08/22/2004 2:18:05 PM Central Daylight Time, Chaufist writes:
    This is a pile of BS. Utter nonsense. That page alone proves there is no proof at all of the damage of secondhand smoke.
    The only names I see are EPA and Surgeon General, two government entities that have a vested interest in scaring you. Why? To advance the power of government which benefits them directly.
    Very surprised you are taken by this BS. All propaganda, one hundred percent.
    Absolutely zilch here on the dangers of second hand smoke. Nothing, nada, zip.
    Pretty said our government puts out nonsense like this, but then again people like you,
    buy it.

  40. dick Avatar
    dick

    I agree that we should get over this and get past the whole Vietnam thing. However, until the Kerry camp signs a form 180 and releases the full Kerry records so that this whole he said/the other guy said thing and get this answered and until Kerry himself gets over Vietnam and until Kerry tries to justify with documentation all the charges he made against the Vietnam warriors, then we will not be over it for the older generation. We were fed a lot of lies by the MSM then about the war and we are currently being fed a lot of innuendo by the current MSM because they do not have the facts they need to respond fully to all the charges and counter charges.
    Until Kerry gets over Vietnam and comes out with a platform that is viable other than he would not do what Bush did and he would get 40,000 more troops and not put them in Iraq, what other foreign policy does he have. Is he going to magically get the Euros who do not support us now to start supporting us? are they suddenly going to start liking us after spending 40 years disliking us? are they going to answer to the charges about Oil for Food scams? are they going to support the right of Israel to exist? I haven’t seen a valid platform from Kerry yet. All he puts out are platitudes with no meat.
    What other approach would Kerry have with regard to Iraq? Do you know what his program would be? If not, then how can you get past what he is pushing to make a decision? and what he is pushing is Vietnam. Edwards has said little except that he thinks that the FEC should be checking into the Republicans and the 527 groups. What about all the cross-fertilization of the Democratic 527 groups and the Kerry campaign committees. They are going back and forth like a yoyo. Any bets on their forgetting all the plans they just made in one place and starting all over again in their new place? If you do I got a bridge here about 10 miles away I can sell you. And if you elect Kerry, his buddies will even take it down for you with their next attack since they don’t respect a sensitive war.

  41. Tina Avatar
    Tina

    One last fart in the face from that misbegotten adventure.
    Have you noticed that Vietnam can still make people contort themselves into positions even a Cirque du Soleil athlete couldn’t manage?
    Near as I can tell, the right-wing position was 1) we lost the war because of disloyal citizens/reporters when everything was actually going swimmingly, then (when that became too much of a downer) 2) we actually WON the war, (even though we left with our tails between our legs), because, hey, we put markers on the board and the Communist empire did eventually collapse, didn’t it? Now they’ve returned to position 1, except it’s now all John Kerry’s fault.
    For the lefties, 1) Communism was just dandy so we were wrong to fight, then (when the mid-life crisis hit) 2) turned into testosterone-addled John Wayne wannabes.
    How I long for the day when all candidates were still in diapers when the last helicopter took off from Saigon.

  42. HH Avatar
    HH

    “Then they did the same thing to Max Cleland.”
    Bullshit… the only thing anyone can point to is an ad which criticized Cleland for voting against the Homeland Security Dept…. had jack-squat to do with his military service. Pointing to an Ann Coulter column… don’t make me laugh. Michael Moore called Bush a deserter.

  43. Chris Josephson Avatar
    Chris Josephson

    The Vietnam Vets have lived with being tarred as ‘baby killers’ for decades. It’s not something that will go away simply because some people may be tired of hearing about it.
    People still talk about WWII. The History Channel could be called the WWII channel. Why don’t people get sick of talking about that? After all, it’s been over far longer than Vietnam.
    What happened to our society in the US because of fighting, pro and con, over Vietnam is part of us. That entire period (1960-1970) was a time of upheaval in the US. Makes sense to me that many people would have unresolved issues from that time they are trying to resolve now.
    I’d love to concentrate, during this presidential election, on the current dangers facing the US. However, I think the issues being brought up by the vets need to be aired. The vets need to be heard. Many have suffered for decades because of what they were accused of doing. They have earned the right to have their say.

  44. Tom Grey - Liberty Dad Avatar
    Tom Grey – Liberty Dad

    See NEW thread above! (Meep did).
    The big question is the moral superiority of ONE, only, of the following TWO possibilities (only two):
    1) keep fighting in Vietnam,
    2) leave; get peace, & accept genocide.
    War or peace & genocide, what do YOU think is the morally superior choice? (Of course, lousy choices — too real, not Hollywood. I wouldn’t see THAT movie again…)
    Jeff believes that (2) peace & genocide is morally superior, I think. (Please correct me)
    We’ll heal the Vietnam wound when this issue is more honestly debated, and the fact that neither choice is so great is accepted.

  45. Southpaw Avatar
    Southpaw

    It’s a rather dubious to argue that “Kerry brought this on himself by playing up Vietnam” since this didn’t really happen until the convention. John O’Neil must have taken several months to write his book and coordinate the Swift Vets for Truth. This means the attack was coming no matter what Kerry said about his service. With this perspective, it is clear that the attention given to Vietnam and Kerry’s “band of brothers” at the convention was a pre-emptive strike – an attempt to get his story out to the public first.

  46. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    That makes his insistence on campaigning as a Vietnam “war hero” even more stupid, Southpaw. If he knew that the Swiftboat Vet stuff was on the horizon he should have countered them with “why are you bringing up the past? That was thirty years ago! What about now?” A large segment of American voters would lap that up; part of our culture for good or ill dislikes too much emphasis on the past, especially when it has to do with uncomfortable memories like — well, like Vietnam. Instead Kerry obviously thought he could bluff his way into the American voter’s heart by claiming to be something he spent the last thirty years either decrying or downplaying, and sauntered right into the trap. Now he looks like an arrogant fool as well as an opportunist. This is the guy who’s going to nuance and diplomat his way back into France’s good graces? They’ll play him the way they played Clinton.

  47. joe Avatar
    joe

    To all you “kerryites”,
    You’re diluding yourselves if you believe that this swift boat flap is just going to go away or that it is just some Bush political trick. The “he said, he said” medal aspect will lose steam, but Mr. Kerrys’ words, those unbeleivable words in 1971, essentially accusing all veitnam soldiers of being war criminals, will, in the end, destroy his candidacy. Listen to the words of Mr. Galanti, a POW from 1966-1973, who has stated that the Kerry blanket war criminal accustations were played on the loud speakers at the “Hanoi Hilton”. Kerrys’ words were played over and over again by the VC, during brutal torture sessions of Mr. Galanti. Mr. Galanti would not utter the words Mr Kerry gave the VC for free, even while being tortured. This is too powerful an indictment of Mr. Kerry to just go away and it certainly cannot be explained away. The damage to Mr. Kerry on this has only just begun. He brought it upon himself. We are currently at war in Iraq and other places…. our soldiers are again in harms way. Mr. Kerry has already proven that he is willing to betray and endanger US soldiers, while on the battlefield, for personal political gain. He can’t be trusted to do it again!
    joe