BuzzMachine

The media pundit's pundit. Written by NYC insider Jeff Jarvis, BuzzMachine covers news, media, journalism, and politics.

About those Saudi flights

33 comments on About those Saudi flights

About those Saudi flights

: Michael Moore made much hay over the flights of Saudis out of the U.S. after September 11th. It’s as if the 9/11 Commission went to see Fahrenheit 9/11 and wanted to respond directly; it boxed a special section on page 329.

Here is a transcript of what Moore said:

MOORE (VO): It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. [Listing of flights to Saudi Arabia.] At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes [Close Up:

33 responses to “About those Saudi flights”

  1. John Avatar
    John

    I’ve posted this before, but Moore admitted under oath in federal court eight years ago that he was not a documentarian and should not be held to the same standards of accuracy as regular journalists, and that when in search of a “higher truth” it was OK to fudge the facts a little, if you’re goal is to take down some evil corporation(in the case in question involving a NYC wastewater sludge dumping company) or individual.
    Anyone watching any film done by Moore should take that mindset into account when they evaluate the accuracy of his movies.

  2. anne.elk Avatar
    anne.elk


    Senator Lautenberg Releases Passenger Manifest of ‘ Bin Laden Family Airlift’ Out of U.S. One Week After 9/11 Attack
    July 21, 2004
    WASHINGTON, DC

  3. djangone Avatar
    djangone

    Well, looky at those BoxOfficeMojo.com stats. Fahrenheit at $97 million. Fahrenheit now the 10th highest-grossing film of the year. Fahrenheit pulling these numbers despite being in 50% fewer theaters than the films in its earnings vicinity.
    I think back with teary nostalgia on the words I spoke regarding ‘plaftorming’ a few weeks ago and the blithering spin-meistering asses who disputed me. And then I start to feel all glowy inside and take a break to laugh another time at the hilarious thing anne.elk just posted.
    Oh, and news flash, the film’s not entirely accurate. Except for the larger point that Bush is an unqualified, incapable, dishonest fool, that is. All it takes is to replay Bush’s own words to prove that, and if that was all the movie showed, it would’ve more than done the right thing.

  4. John Avatar
    John

    Believe what you want — Moore makes a point nowadays when pressed to state that he’s an entertainer, not a documentarian, due to the legal ramifications one entails and the other doesn’t. And his defense at the 1996 Columbia Tri Star v. Merco Joint Ventures trial was used last year (minus all real names) at an Associated Press Managing Edtiors seminar on how not to testify in court when you have an extremely weak case to present in a libel trial (or in the words of the attorney conducting the seminar “Oohps is not a good defense.”).
    Moore’s targets nowadays are big enough so that the Supreme Court’s Times v. Sullivan ruling makes libel suits far less likely, even if congressional reports show his facts to be just as dubious today as the were a decade ago. His polemic on 9/11 might have been a little better if he hadn’t praised Richard Clark without mentioning Clark was also the official who authorized the Saudi departures after 9/11. Perhaps Senator Lautenberg can call Mr. Clark back up to Capitol Hill for another go-round on that decision highlighted by F911.
    Anyway, the terrorists are going to want to kill us just as much on Jan. 20, 2005, no matter who is president. And despite Mike’s post-Sept. 11 protestations, they’re still more anxious to hit a big target in a Blue state like New York or California, where most of his ticket-buyers are, because places like New York or Los Angeles are what symbolizes America to them. And if Kerry wins and an attack occurs, I doubt he’ll follow Moore’s line of reasoning and deliver a “It’s really our fault” speech to the nation that night.

  5. HH Avatar
    HH

    Slimy, intellectually dishonest Lautenberg spins us blue and the Sep. 11 commission responds with some facts… like that they did an independent check and there is NO EVIDENCE that anyone on those flights had terror connections… period. Nice try anne. elk.
    Djangone – F911 still isn’t up there with Dodgeball. Last I checked Dodgeball didn’t get 88 stories in the NY Times. Moore also said that money didn’t matter but changing minds did. Thus far, polls show that it hasn’t had much affect at all, so by his own standards, Moore’s film is a failure.

  6. Mithras Avatar
    Mithras

    How crazy is it when the right-wing nutbags who are usually all for disemboweling Muslims who look at them funny on airliners want to defend fairly lenient treatment for the family of the man who murdered 3,000 Americans? And the left-wing demagogue is the one who wanted the bin Ladens to be locked up, maybe slapped around a little?
    Just goes to show, politics.

  7. James Stephenson Avatar
    James Stephenson

    Well world reknown terrorist expert Richard Clarke said it was ok for these guys to fly. Now it has been proven that Clarke is a little bit of an idiot. Either he is a Genius, his words and the words of the left when he was saying bad things about Bush, or one serious idiot who never should have had that post to begin with. And to think for years Clinton was getting briefings from this idiot.
    So Anne.elk which is it? Is he a genius or a moron? And if he were an idiot why was Clinton taking his word on things. Or a genius and if so how could he let a suspected terrorist fly?
    The President and Vice President had no say in them flying. This can all be laid on Clarke’s feet.

  8. lee sanulav Avatar
    lee sanulav

    >>>Moore damns with elipses instead of the >>>full facts.
    Moore damns with images, he’s a film maker not a blogger. The video of the Bushes literally embracing Saudi Kings (holding hands and even kissing) is shocking to most Americans. That is what sticks in the mind. Not the little fine print.

  9. lee sanulav Avatar
    lee sanulav

    >>>Moore damns with elipses instead of the full facts.
    Moore damns with images, he’s a film maker not a blogger. The video of the Bushes literally embracing Saudi Kings (holding hands and even kissing) is shocking to most Americans. That is what sticks in the mind. Not the little fine print.

  10. Michael Zimmer Avatar
    Michael Zimmer

    “Moore damns with elipses instead of the full facts”
    Other polemic uses of elipses: State of the Union Addresses, political stump speeches, op-ed columns, many blog entries & comments.
    Isn’t this simply the power of rhetoric? Moore isn’t writing a dissertation, he’s trying to make an argument.

  11. Sharp as a Marble Avatar
    Sharp as a Marble

    “Moore isn’t writing a dissertation, he’s trying to make an argument”
    Strong arguments use facts though, not lies. If you have to base your argument on lies, you need to rethink your position. And truthful statements strung together in a misleading way is a lie. For example
    “Michael Moore is a convicted sex offender. Who would want to watch a movie made by a pedophile?”
    Unless I qualify that statement by informing you that it’s another Moore and not fat-boy, then the dishonesty is equivilent to lying. The first statement is true, there is a pedophile by the name of M. Moore. The second statement is a question therefore not a lie. However, the overall statement clearly would imply that Moore the crockumentary maker is a child rapist, which AFAIK is not true.
    This is the evil that Moore spreads. In my eyes, it’s a lie, regardless if each sentence is technically true.

  12. leesanulav Avatar
    leesanulav

    Film as media is different than print media. You’re missing the message if you don’t include the media context. Talk about Moore’s imagery, to know what he’s saying. Otherwise the focus is too narrow

  13. h0mi Avatar
    h0mi

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5403841
    Lauer: “There is a perception or maybe a fear in the United States that somehow the bin Laden family continues to either stay in contact with him or, in some ways, support him.”
    Bin Laden: “Why would we? This is ridiculous. You know, my father was a devoted Saudi. He worked all his life in Saudi Arabia. And he told us not to get involved in politics.”
    …
    Lauer: “What was the impression of Osama within the family?”
    Bin Laden: “When he was in Afghanistan, I think everybody supported him.”
    Lauer: “If the family did hold him in high regard during a certain part of his life, when did that begin to change?”
    Bin Laden: “The minute he started attacking verbally the country, Saudi Arabia, then that changed because we are part of the country. We– my father worked all his life to develop that country.”
    The first Gulf War was a turning point, when Saudi Arabia allowed U.S. troops into the kingdom. Osama considered it a violation of the sacred land of Islam. He blamed the United States and, even more, the Saudi government.
    …
    Lauer: “Can you say with any degree of confidence that there is no member of the bin Laden family who is helping to supply funds to Osama or al-Qaida?”
    Bin Laden: “Yes. I know my family. I would be surprised to think that anybody would help.”
    Lauer: “Do you think you have done everything you possibly can to help officials or authorities track down a money trail that might lead to Osama bin Laden? Have you cooperated in every way you think you could cooperate?”
    Bin Laden: “I have told the Swiss attorney general. I have told him listen, I have 20 years of accounting. You are welcome to look, to go through it.”
    Lauer: “Are you cooperating with the United States authorities?”
    Bin Laden: “I have never been asked.”
    …
    Lauer: “I guess a question that most people would want me to ask you would be that if by some strange occurrence, you were to find out where Osama was now, would you turn him in?”
    Bin Laden: “I never think of this.”
    Lauer: “How can you not think of it?”
    Bin Laden: “What do you think? Would you turn in your brother? Or half-brother. Tell me. I put the question back to you.”
    Lauer: “I think– I guess, if he were accused of murdering thousands of people, you’d have to let him have his day in court. Let me throw the question back at you.”
    Bin Laden: “I think he should have his day in court.”
    Lauer: “Would you turn him in?”
    Bin Laden: “Which court? And we’ll go in circles. We will go in circles if you want to continue the question.”
    Seems to me that if the US requested Osama, Yeslam would not likely help them. He might change his tune if a Saudi court asked.

  14. syn Avatar
    syn

    I no longer believe anything Totalitarian Fascist entertainers, producers, actors, distributers, and crockumentarians have to offer.
    The ‘age of the celebrity is dead’ and Michael Moore is a Totalitarian Fascist whose days of propaganda puke are numbered.
    Michael Moore is Hollywood’s adored and worshipped Nazi propagandist filmmaker Leni Reifenstal in drag.
    By the way, from the entertainment industry just how many pro-Bush or ‘conservative’ television shows, sitcom or drama, have we seen lately? How many movies have we seen? How many pop performers have we heard? We don’t because Hollywood is a Totalitarian Fascist industry which must not be supported by the people.
    When the film “Michael Moore Hates America” is hopefully released, remember it was a common person outside the entertainment industry who had the film made, not Hollywood.
    Hopefully,as well, the film will be able to by-pass the Totalitarian Fascist Distribution Csars who determine what gets shown when and where.
    For another example of the Totalitarian Fascism in the entertainment industry refer to Mel Gibson’s experience with “The Passion of the Christ”. From beginning to end, this film was discarded by the entertainment industry as trash while Michael Moore’s crockumentary propaganda is exalted and praised.
    Wonder why?

  15. shark Avatar
    shark

    Well, djangone contributes his usual incoherent post. As for the rest….well you either know what Moore is- a lying polemecist- or you’re a member of the Al Gore wing of the Democratic party.
    On the whole, the 9/11 report is a mixed bag. Plenty of blame for everyone to go around. And a nice heaping helping for Congress.
    Reading the 9/11 report though, three things come through:
    1) Maybe this Patriot Act isn’t so bad after all
    2) Looks like this preemption idea isn’t so bad either
    3) We’re going to go after Iran…..and soon.

  16. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Oh, good God.
    Anne, so what? Frank Lautenberg thought there was something wrong. Wow. If George Bush kissed a baby at a campaign stop, Frank Lautenberg would claim he was barely prevented from cannibalism. In the mean time, we found out that the bin Laden family members didn’t leave until after flights were resumed, the flight was approved by famous Republican operative Richard Clarke, and the FBI interviewed everyone they wanted to talk to. The commission report confirms all of this.
    Did you want us to hold bin Laden’s family members hostage to get him to turn himself in? Grope for a grip, girl, you’re grasping at straws.
    And djangone, look: I’m a logician. Forget the content of the argument for a moment and just look at the form. If I tell you A, B, C and D, therefore E, and someone comes along and shows A, B, C, and D are not just mistaken but knowing lies, for me to assert E as a “higher truth” is, to use the technical term, nuts.

  17. John Avatar
    John

    OK, here’s Moore from the story on his testimony in his 1996 libel suit. His point of view here still applies to his modus operendi today:
    Questioned by Merco attorney Joseph Tydings about Sierra Blanca businessman Bill Addington’s statements on the show that his lumberyard was burned down because of his opposition to sludge, Moore said it was not necessary to present evidence that Merco did not commit arson.
    “I don’t think evidence was the point. That’s how he felt,” Moore said.
    “Do you believe it is possible to deceive the listening public by purposefully withholding information which contradicts the story line that your show is trying to present?” asked Tydings.
    “No,” Moore said…”The fact that it was not there says `this is how he believes.’ It is his feelings, but we are not going to take a position
    on that.” …
    “I think it is o.k. for people to have a specific point of view,” Moore said, using William Buckley’s conservative “National Review” and Jim Hightower’s liberal radio show as examples.
    “That’s all part of the journalistic mix, and it is healthy in a democracy to take a position and state their beliefs. I don’t think it is the responsibility of either side to have to present all sides of the story. It is enough to say, `this is what I believe and this is why,’” Moore said.
    ***
    So basically, belief trumphs actual facts, according to Moore’s testimony. If you believe Bush connived to smuggle Saudis out of the country after 9/11, or that the Afghan attack was part of a plan to build an oil pipeline for his buddies, even if the facts gathered won’t get you to your final conclusion, your belief in those fact is enough to cover the last 25 yards or so to the goal line.
    If people are comfortable with Moore’s beliefs being their beliefs, they’re perfectly entitled to that opinion. But if you’re a journalist or someone who just wants to know the absolute truth about the situation, playing by Moore’s ground rules is asking for trouble.

  18. daudder Avatar
    daudder

    that’s right, hold moore to a higher standard than the president, vp, national security advisorm secretary of state, defence, environment…
    so you think you caught mm lying…what about the other 90 minutes of the movie…does he not make one think more provocativly about the messopotamia than ANY OTHER JOURNALIST IN THE US!

  19. Michael Zimmer Avatar
    Michael Zimmer

    …if you’re someone who just wants to know the absolute truth about the situation…
    Now that’s an amusing concept: abosulte truth. I wonder when we’ll get past this whole Western, post-Enlightenment absolutism fetish.

  20. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Calm down syn, you’ll bust a couple arteries.
    I finally saw Farenheit when my fianc

  21. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    “So basically, belief trumphs actual facts”
    John, that’s exactly how Bush operates.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: There MUST be WMD.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: I believe there are WMD.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: Iraq is an immediate threat.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: Iraq in not a threat.
    Bush: But what about the WMD?
    Howard Dean said: if Bush and his administration “have a theory and a fact, and [the two] don’t coincide, they get rid of the fact instead of the theory.”
    A perfect summation of 4 years of failure.

  22. John Avatar
    John

    Once again, you can believe all or part of Moore’s movies. The problem is it’s left to the audience to decide what is factually true and what Moore extrapolates from his own beliefs into claiming it’s true. And there’s no program guide to show you where the facts end and the feelings begin.
    It’s like buying a used car without a warranty — in this case you pay your $10 and you take your chances. Some people are more willing than others to accept Mike’s work at face value. More power to them, but like I said before, the people who wanted us dead on Sept. 11 are still going to want us dead on Jan. 20, 2005 no matter who the president is, and they’ll still want us dead four years after that. No movie is going to change that reality.

  23. Ryan Avatar
    Ryan

    “The first rule of a criminal investigation is that when the suspect is on the run, you must interrogate the family to find out where he is,”
    Really? Is Lautenberg advocating detaining non-US citizens for crimes they did not committ? As material witnesses perhaps?
    I seem to remember alot of screaming on the left when it was rumored we were holding family members of various big wigs from the infamous Deck of Cards.
    Such utter bullshit.

  24. James Stephenson Avatar
    James Stephenson

    “Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: There MUST be WMD.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: I believe there are WMD.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: Iraq is an immediate threat.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: Iraq in not a threat.
    Bush: But what about the WMD?”
    That is interesting Angelos. Because before we got in there, everyone in the world assumed he had WMD. Including Blix. He told us he needed more time.
    The reason everyone was wrong, not enough HumInt.

  25. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: There MUST be WMD.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: I believe there are WMD.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: There are no WMD.
    Bush: Iraq is an immediate threat.
    Inspectors, CIA, etc: Iraq in not a threat.
    Bush: But what about the WMD?
    Angelos, totally wrong and misleading. CIA Director George Tenet told Bush the WMD in Iraq was a “slam dunk” case. Get your posts right.
    tenet slam dunk

  26. syn Avatar
    syn

    The reason Angelos can’t get his posts right is because he was educated in La La Land. Get back to your movies, you’re just getting in the way.

  27. triticale Avatar
    triticale

    All it takes is to replay Bush’s own words to prove that, and if that was all the movie showed, it would’ve more than done the right thing.
    It is trivially easy to demonstrate that Moore manipulates clips so as to distort the significance of what is being said. I saw a posting about a clip of Condi Rice in F911 which deleted the point she intended to make but I didn’t care enough to recall the details because I have no respect for the intelligence of anyone who pays any attention to Moore as a source of information.
    Watch Bull**** About Columbine one more time. Pay attention to Charlton Heston’s necktie during the speech Moore claims was given at the annual meeting the NRA was legally obligated not to reschedule after the Columbine killings. See if you can guess which tie he wore then and which he wore for the speech was given six months later.

  28. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    Mithras ejaculated:

    How crazy is it when the right-wing nutbags who are usually all for disemboweling Muslims who look at them funny on airliners want to defend fairly lenient treatment for the family of the man who murdered 3,000 Americans? And the left-wing demagogue is the one who wanted the bin Ladens to be locked up, maybe slapped around a little?

    Why, not crazy at all when you consider what left-wing regimes have done to the families of political enemies whether the family members were involved or not, or whether they even agreed with their dissident relatives. On the other hand “rightwing nutbags” (that is, classical liberals and middle-of-the-road conservatives all rolled into the same Mithras-don’t-like-it sack) are civilized beings who don’t believe in penalizing without proof an entire family for the criminal activities of one of its members. Or do you think, for instance, that the parents of, say, Timothy McVeigh should have been executed along with their son? I guess if you’re Mithras you do. Thanks for letting us know what sort of regime you’d prefer to be ruled by, and I do mean ruled.

  29. Robert McClelland Avatar
    Robert McClelland

    Do I have this right? Moore’s facts and the 9/11 commission’s facts are identical but Moore lied because he. . .um, exactly how is it Moore lied again?

  30. George Avatar
    George

    Robert, Moore lied because jumped to a conclusion that is unsupported by the facts. It’s no different than seeing a black guy in a brand-new Mercedes-Benz and assuming he stole the vehicle. All observers agree that there’s a Mercedes-Benz and a black male driving it. The 9/11 commision and Moore both agree there were Arabs and a plane. Moore and you are assuming that’s evidence they’re terrorists. However the facts don’t end there. If you saw the driver of the Benz next to you at the DMV registering his vehicle someone insisting he stole it would be ridiculous. The FBI checked these guys out. Robert, by following Moore’s logic you’re not just being prejudiced, you’re ignoring the truth.

  31. Robert McClelland Avatar
    Robert McClelland

    are assuming that’s evidence they’re terrorists.
    I’ve never heard anyone make the assumption that they were terrorists. I think you’re just pulling shit out of your ass now.

  32. Sortelli Avatar
    Sortelli

    In Robert’s world, two opposite conclusions can be drawn from the same set of facts and still be true. Every night in Robert’s world, Robert goes to bed confused and angry.
    No one should live in Robert’s world. Won’t you help?

  33. Francois Brutsch Avatar
    Francois Brutsch

    Thanks, Jeff. Your post provided me with the path to the comprehensive fisking of the Geneva daily Le Temps, which managed to repeat (and emphasize: they categorically assert that the airspace was closed when a flight occured on 9/13!) two days after publication of the 9/11 commission report…