Choices

Choices

: I’m sure I’m late today linking to the nut of David Brook’s column on the state of the war in Iraq:

Believe me, we’ve got even bigger problems than whether Rumsfeld keeps his job. We’ve got the problem of defining America’s role in the world from here on out, because we are certainly not going to put ourselves through another year like this anytime soon. No matter how Iraq turns out, no president in the near future is going to want to send American troops into any global hot spot. This experience has been too searing.

Unfortunately, states will still fail, and world-threatening chaos will still ensue. Tyrants will still aid terrorists. Genocide will still occur. What are we going to do then? Who is going to tackle the future Milosevics, the future Talibans? If you were one of those people who thought the world was dangerous with an overreaching hyperpower, wait until you get a load of the age of the global power vacuum.

In this climate of self-doubt, the “realists” of right and left are bound to re-emerge. They’re going to dwell on the limits of our power. They’ll advise us to learn to tolerate the existence of terrorist groups, since we don’t really have the means to take them on. They’re going to tell us to lower our sights, to accept autocratic stability, since democratic revolution is too messy and utopian.

That’s a recipe for disaster. It was U.S. inaction against Al Qaeda that got us into this mess in the first place. It was our tolerance of Arab autocracies that contributed to the madness in the Middle East.

: And that is why I stay still that Rumsfeld should not go.

The revelations of abuse in Iraq are going to get worse. Rumseld told us that yesterday in his testimony before Congress.

Rape is not torture. It is a crime. Beating someone to within an inch of his life is not torture. It is a crime. And those who committed these acts should be treated like cops who assault a prisoner with a bathroom plunger: with trials and same and perp walks and prison.

Do I believe that Rumseld systematically encouraged this behavior? Of course not. Do I believe that firing him will make the slightest difference? No. If our armed forces are not better trained to know this fundamental difference between good and bad, then every defense secretary since Lt. Calley is at fault. But those most at fault at Abu Ghraib are the people who committed and encouraged these acts and they should soon serve in their own Abu Ghraibs.

: UPDATE: Let me make this clear: When I say that some of what has been done in Abu Ghraib is a crime not torture, I am saying that it is worse and is clearly punishable as a crime. Torture has many definitions. Crime is defined by statute as are its punishments.

44 responses to “Choices”

  1. Paul Worden Avatar
    Paul Worden

    Jeff, I agree with “That’s a recipe for disaster…” and I think you are right on when it comes to the “realists” coming out of the wood work. The only thing I take exception too is..”every defense secretary since Lt. Calley is at fault.” I know it has become common place to bring Viet Nam into every aspect of Iraq, but history shows that atrocities have been a part of every damn war since recorded history.
    Item: Civil War – Andersonville Prison Camp – 12,912 prisoners died mainly due to conditions,starvation, etc.
    Item:World War II – US Army condemned 443 of its own solders to death for war zone capital offenses,mostly rape and murder of civilians.
    Many of these kind of crimes can be found in the history of every war. But…for some reason..maybe the fact that it was the only war we lost…every war atrocitie is measured against My Lai. As a Viet Nam vet…I’m beginning to get just a tad touchy about it.
    No big deal. Keep on keepin on…
    Paul

  2. Oliver Avatar

    Rape isn’t a form of torture? You’re off the deep end with this one.

  3. Paul Worden Avatar
    Paul Worden

    Oliver, by “no big deal” I was refering only to my feeling touchy about using Viet Nam for all atrocitie measurements.

  4. blaster Avatar

    Hey, shouldn’t you be posting that monkey-George Bush montage again?

  5. howard Avatar

    What happened was torture, it was systemic, it was policy, it was committed against women, innocent people, and the elderly, it was committed against families and innocent people. It was torture.
    http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/05/08/torture/index_np.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html

  6. zogboy Avatar
    zogboy

    If rape and beatings are not torture, what is? An example of tortured semantic bullshit at its worst, Mr. Jarvis.

  7. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    “Believe me…” Oh dear, we’re in trouble already. Brock’s forte was always (& obviously remains) self-promotion, not insight.
    If the snoozer “analysis” of Dick Morris’s Rewriting History is any indication, I expect Media Matters for America will slide into the AirAmerica abyss as soon as the $2mil runs out or Rush Limbaugh gets tired of playing tag — whichever comes first.

  8. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    Oops, thought it was Brock not Brooks. But you know what, I’m afraid I still find the text in this one pretty uninspired — and even more disappointing as I’m usually a real Brooks fan.

  9. lk Avatar

    Justice is swift in the Muslim world, it is very, very slow in ours. Are we to educate Muslims that slow justice is the best? Forgetaboutit. We lose no matter what happens, no matter if Rummy stays or not. We lost, game over, let’s call it under a 10 run mercy rule.

  10. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Jeez, lk — if people like you were in charge of any difficult endeavor in the past century, they wouldn’t have gotten off the ground. “Go to war against Hitler? But what if one of us goes off the deep end and hurts civilians? No — better just stay in our own borders and ignore the pleas for help.” “What — go to the moon? What if someone gets hurt? And won’t that just make people who can’t go to the moon feel bad?” “Use this fungus growth to cure disease? But– but it’s dirty! And what if it makes someone sicker? No — throw that disgusting stuff out and wash that dish!” Etc.

  11. Andrea Harris Avatar

    And I didn’t even mention the hilarious idea that the swift thing that occurs in the Muslim world is “justice.”

  12. Nels Nelson Avatar
    Nels Nelson

    The UN Convention Against Torture defines torture as:
    “Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.”
    I take it then that you either have a different definition of torture or don’t believe Gen. Miller and Sgt. Frederick when they say that the purpose of these actions was to aid with interrogations and punish suspected criminals.

  13. button Avatar
    button

    First, I think that people– especially younger people– need to start sorting out the pranks from the serious crimes. Even infractions of rules have degrees of gravity. Getting hysterical because a guy (whom we cannot even identify!) has a pair of panties over his head is not enhancing the credibility of the cause here of being anti-torture.
    My guess is that they started out with an idea for a psychops project which may have gotten out of hand. I don’t think they started out with the intention of torturing prisoners as the standard modus operandi. It is already well known that people will say anything to stop the pain of torture so that the quality of intelligence material which results from torture is compromised or even sometimes vitiated.
    The proposed project had to first be reviewed by their lawyer if it was the CIA. The congressmen will inevitably try to get that paper which their lawyer had to sign off on with his signature or at least his initials. It exists somewhere in the files. But this may not have been the CIA. There are a few other similar organizations it might have been.
    That paper (the cia lawyer’s review of the proposed project) will describe the intended objectives of the psych-op and other such info. When their lawyer carefully reviews the scenario, he should point out any “gray” areas which could give rise to potential legal problems.

  14. Thomas Nephew Avatar

    Come on! Getting sodomized, or raped, or beaten nearly or fully to death, or told you’re a stumble away from electrocution is torture. Getting sexually humiliated either is or ought to be a violation of the Geneva Conventions, too.
    Maybe sending in inadequately trained and staffed battalions to watch over too many prisoners and do a pickup mercenary team’s bidding, failing to make sure they understand their Geneva Convention duties, keeping them on for extra rotations, not replacing losses of attrition, suggesting they’re fighting 9/11 terror, and removing JAGs from oversight of military interrogation isn’t precisely the same as encouraging torture and abuse. It’s being criminally negligent about inviting torture and abuse, but I suppose it’s not actually encouraging them.
    Of course the soldiers involved are primarily responsible. But Rumsfeld et al created the conditions that allowed this crap to flourish. Even Rumsfeld admits this was on his watch, and that he’s “responsible.” What does that mean, exactly, if not to step down?
    Rumsfeld has got to go. Feith has got to go. Boykin has got to go. And Bush has got to go.
    Just what kind of misfeasance _would_ merit a resignation, if not the single most damaging incident to America’s reputation since My Lai? That hooded guy with the wires: get used to that picture for the next 50 *#@! years, if we don’t _both_ punish the soldiers _and_ make a clean break with the leadership involved. And we’ll deserve every one of them.

  15. lulu Avatar

    Rape is not torture. It is a crime. Beating someone to within an inch of his life is not torture. It is a crime.
    As a survivor of 9/11 doesn’t it annoy you to read “terrorism is a law enforcement and intelligence problem, not a war.”
    Jeff, I think you overstepped. If our soldiers filmed Iraqi guards raping detained Iraqi youths, it fits my definition of torture. When I think back to the hundreds of women raped in Bosnia who hung themselves in shame, I think torture.
    On Thursday night, I was slightly astonished to hear a Republican whose opinion I respect call for Rumsfeld’s resignation. (She has a brother, an ex-Marine who may be called up shortly.) She feels Rumsfeld’s management of the war has fallen short, she feels we should have had this wrapped up by now.

  16. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Rumsfeld created those conditions, Thomas Nephew? How, pray tell? How was Rumsfeld to “make sure” these particular soldiers knew the Geneva Convention (which is bullshit anyway — that they should be given some sort of pass because “they didn’t know it” — they knew what they were doing was wrong)? Administer a test? The “telling them they were fighting 9/11 terror” is your bugbear, I’m not going to get into the “Iraq was no threat why are we there” pissing match. I don’t see how having enough people in rotation inevitably leads to torture and abuse; it seems to me that the activities that were engaged in needed the perpetrators to be well-rested and alert; for instance, that grinning female didn’t look especially tired to me.
    Rumsfeld may be “responsible” for policy in the broad sense but he has to deal with the material he’s given — and the budget, and the fact that the military is not provided with infinite resources. I’d like to know, for instance, who you’d recommend in his place. No one of the Blamers seems to have brought that up.

  17. Andy Avatar

    I think that if the realists take center stage we will be struck again and again. We are at war. We face an enemy who will seize any opportunity to attack and kill because it brings them cannon fodder.
    We may face another year like this and another. This war was 50 years in the making. It will not vanish in 24 or 36 months.
    The alternative is to await the next attack and hope that “my” city and “my” family are not hit. Is that a realistic alternative strategy?

  18. felixrayman Avatar
    felixrayman

    Do I believe that Rumseld systematically encouraged this behavior? Of course not.
    There’s a clear line of evolution here, from the treatment (read murder) of prisoners in Afghanistan to the completely lawless (and if you disagree, tell me what law applies) detention of prisoners at Guantanamo to the rape, murder, and assault of prisoners in Iraq. That’s all Rumsfeld’s doing. He’s the man. When you defend him, you defend the acts.
    Let me make this clear: When I say that some of what has been done in Abu Ghraib is a crime not torture, I am saying that it is worse and is clearly punishable as a crime. Torture has many definitions. Crime is defined by statute as are its punishments.
    Can you give me an instance of torture that ISN’T a crime? You are in serious shut the fuck up territory here. What an idiot. There is a word for what was done by Americans at Abu Ghraib. It isn’t “Crime”, we are not talking about mugging or someone having their car broken into, we are talking about torture. You are cowardly and dishonest.
    There’s really nothing else to say – you’re an idiot.
    Do I believe that firing him will make the slightest difference? No. If our armed forces are not better trained to know this fundamental difference between good and bad, then every defense secretary since Lt. Calley is at fault.
    Yeah, the soldiers at Abu Ghraib just all of the sudden thought up the idea of forcing the prisoners to suck each others dicks and such. And the higher ups never noticed. The rot is at the top, by which I mean the rot is with the people who approved what happened at Guantanamo, and the people like you, the flag waving torture ignoring morons.
    You’re a sick person. That’s all.

  19. BF Avatar

    “Of course the soldiers involved are primarily responsible. But Rumsfeld et al created the conditions that allowed this crap to flourish. Even Rumsfeld admits this was on his watch, and that he’s “responsible.” What does that mean, exactly, if not to step down?”
    Amen. If you send 130,000 troops to do the job required by 500,000 and the shit hits the fan, the people responsible for that decision have to pay the price. Listen to the military brass who want Rumsfeld strung up. Pigheaded arrogance has its price – and that should be Rumsfeld’s head.

  20. Kat Avatar

    Bull crap–10 out of 130,000 soldiers screw up and that is the fault of one man. Everytime an employee f***s up , then the boss should be fired. That makes sense. If you guys weren’t so anti-Bush, you may be able to get your heads screwed on straight. I am willing to think like you though. If you can do it, so can I. If Rumsfield is responsible, then I want responsibility on the part of this muslim massacring menace that is like a virus gone wild. Here is my take,:in that line of reasoning ,then all muslims are guilty for 911 and all the current atrocities. There’s a clear line of evolution here, from the bombing of the WTC1, USS Cole to the completely lawless (and if you disagree, tell me what law applies) decapitation of Daniel Pearl,the murder by shoe of the iranian journalist from Canada,the horrendous torture of William Sampson, to the rape, murder, and assault of prisoners in Somalia and Iraq,even hanging them from a bridge. That’s all Islam’s doing. It’s the culprit. When you defend this rot, you defend the acts. I don’t see muslims lining up to speak against this jihadi junk–no–they make martyrs of the perpetrators. Until I hear muslims en masse condemn these acts, and all mullahs who preach these putrid acts are fired, I have no alternative than to condemn islam as a terrorist cult. Yeah, the 19 freakazoids at 911 just all of the sudden thought up the idea of stealing planes, cutting stewardesses throats with box cutters and such. And the higher ups never noticed. The rot is at the top, by which I mean the rot is with the muslim people who approved what happens worldwide– in Armenia, the Copts in Egypt, the Pandits, the Jews, 911, and the people like you, the moonflag waving terrorist ignoring morons.
    10 soldiers screw up and it’s a travesty, hundreds of millions of muslims screw up and it’s my fault. Horse pucky. Long live Rummy. God Bless America. Happy Mother’s Day.

  21. button Avatar
    button

    Rummy is not responsible for this. But he is a real man with real cojohnes and a stand-up guy. Nevertheless, he is not responsible, although the compensation thing may have some potential here. Rummy does a very good job with the DOD; I like the way he runs it. I don’t want him fired.
    It’s some intelligence organization. John McCain will probably eventually uncover which one and get the docs for this project. I don’t think they could say no to John McCain.
    Look, guys: which is better–
    1) Pulling out their fingernails with a pair of pliers… or
    2) Putting a pair of panties on their heads?
    There has to be a hierarchy of values instituted here, ie a “ladder of values” ie which is better or which is worse / the better good / the worse evil.
    So far, we didn’t slice off any of their ears. OK, technically it may have been an infraction against their human dignity. We’ll see what happens about that.

  22. BF Avatar

    Kat and Button – open your eyes. The military brass is condemning Rumsfeld. There aren’t enough troops, they don’t have enough supplies (body armor?).
    It’s not a few GI’s who simply screwed up. Prison guards under constant mortar attack, with 6 guards per 1000 prisoners is a recipe for disaster. We have 70,000 troops in Europe doing what? Protecting the Germans?
    What’s Rumsfeld’s military training? He was a stunt pilot, a Congressman, a diplomat, and a CEO. Let the military design the occupation and give them what they need. That hasn’t happened.
    …and Kat – try some valium.

  23. Andrea Harris Avatar

    “You’re a sick person.” “Try some valium.”
    Well, there’s nothing like high-level discourse to clear the air.

  24. felixrayman Avatar
    felixrayman

    Hey button, tell me, does this look like someone with a pair of panties on his head:
    http://billmon.org/archives/corpse.jpg
    No?
    So tell me button, would you still be an apologist for war crimes if the person in the picture was an American and the murderers were Iraqis? Or are you simply a world-class hypocrite?

  25. BF Avatar

    Hey Andrea, I suppose you call this high level discourse:
    “If you guys weren’t so anti-Bush, you may be able to get your heads screwed on straight.”
    “I have no alternative than to condemn islam as a terrorist cult.”
    ” and the people like you, the moonflag waving terrorist ignoring morons.”
    You’re right. Valium may not be the drug of choice. Check with Rush Limbaugh, he knows his pharmaceuticals.

  26. Jim B. Avatar
    Jim B.

    Jeff, by drawing a distinction between torture and criminal acts, you are clearly trying to justify your earlier post, in which you stated that torture is acceptable in some cases.
    For your words to have any real meaning you need to:
    1. Give some specific examples of acts of torture which you think are acceptable. Otherwise, you can keep saying things like, “Of course, I wasn’t referring to criminal acts like rape and murder.”
    2. Say who you think should be able to decide when torture may be used. (Bush? Rumsfeld? Lynndie England?) Then consider whether you would want your fate, or the fate of your family members, entrusted to them.
    As for me, I don’t buy it. Torture is never OK.
    And I’d be interested in knowing what your sister (the Presbyterian minister) would have to say on this subject.

  27. Kat Avatar

    I don’t know what the big deal about the panties is anyways. Here, is a case where they obviously enjoy crossdressing. Maybe they were celebrating Mother’s Day.
    {Palestinians opened fire Sunday evening on a large group of Israelis who had congregated at the site of the attack on the Hatuel family near the Kissufim crossing in the Gaza Strip, Army Radio reported.
    The terrorists were disguised as Palestinian women as they walked toward greenhouses, situated some 300 meters away from the site, where they waited for the congregation to arrive then openedfire,Channel 2 reported.}

  28. button Avatar
    button

    I am not an apologist for war crimes or torture. As a young child I closely followed Justice Jackson and the proceedings of the Nuremburg Tribunals on my kitchen table radio, which made enduring impressions on me.
    We have to proceed in an orderly manner and we have to ascertain the facts. For example, I understand that there are faked photos being circulated now, some of them from S+M prno websites.
    The cadaver in the photo I don’t know about or what you’d like to pronounce. We don’t know the circumstances. It is possible that this man could have had a fatal heart defect or some other health condition and succumbed to that. An autopsy would have to be done. You’re letting your over-heated imagination run away with you. If you have already decided that Lynndie killed him with a dirty look, that sounds like magical thinking in which you creatively embroider an illusory causal link between her behavior and his demise– which has not been proven. You wouldn’t want someone to do that to you, I’m sure. Maybe a djinn killed him for wearing blue on Fridays.

  29. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    “Rape is not torture. It is a crime. Beating someone to within an inch of his life is not torture. It is a crime.”
    Sorry, Jeff. When such acts occur inside a prison, not out on the street, it’s torture. When such acts are not random, but are endorsed (whether tacitly or explicitly) as a tool of intimidation, oppression or investigation, that’s torture.
    One of the fundmental reasons we are in Iraq in the first place is that the inefficacy of treating terrorist acts as individual crimes was demonstrated on 9/11. For those poised to jump, I am not tying Saddam to 9/11. I’m saying that the root cause of terrorism is dictatorship where resentment for every woe is deliberately misdirected toward external, not internal, oppressors.
    It may well be that most of the middle east takes such abuses on the part of governing powers like those at Abu Ghraib for granted. It is important to demonstrate that we do not. We can never guarantee that such failures will not occur, which is why expressing outrage now is less important than making it clear that in a democratic system, we have an institutional process for handling such depravity.
    Blaming Rumsfeld and shouting Off With His Head sounds a lot more like the kind of witch-hunting governance that is all too familiar in that part of the world.
    Thomas N —
    Let me guess: you were inclined toward regime change here at home before the soon-to-be-iconic photo surfaced?

  30. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    To clarify what might read like a contradiction: the institutional process as intended above includes more than the crimminal proceedings now under way. Congressional oversight, among other checks and balances built into our system, is a key part of that process too.

  31. felixrayman Avatar
    felixrayman

    I am not an apologist for war crimes or torture
    Actually, by your statements, you are. You are attempting to minimize the seriousness of the documented charges, many of which are far more serious than a case of putting panties on someone’s head. Two of the cases have been declared murders, 25 others are being investigated as murders, there are also documented rapes, beatings, attacks by dogs, etc.
    You, in this thread, have acted as an apologist for the people who committed those crimes.
    We don’t know the circumstances.
    We don’t? In an earlier post, you imply that the worst that was done was “Putting a pair of panties on their heads”. And you follow up with the assertion that what happened was only “technically” an infraction against their human dignity. So you are claiming to know the circumstances while failing to even know the basic published facts about the cases.
    You are an apologist for war criminals. It’s that simple.

  32. button Avatar
    button

    The photos I have been referring to:
    **http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,1211872,00.html**
    The soldiers who allegedly engaged in these activities will be put through a kind of trial procedure or court martial or something similar.
    I am trying to discourage the substitution of fairytales and hearsay for facts and evidence.
    You are obviously not a very worldly and experienced person, but I don’t think you’d like to be the target of libel or slander being used to prosecute you and put you in prison. You make yourself sound very foolish by insisting that I accept your imaginings for the actual events.
    Among other things: I am the daughter of a lawer and have always been active in civil and human rights, especially lately in supporting FA and similar.

  33. ahem Avatar

    Gosh, it’s something to have someone on the right talk about dealing with torture as a law enforcement activity. Especially given that there’s such sniffiness about treating other aspects of the ‘war on terror’ as law enforcement
    If we’re going to construe acts of terrorism as acts of war (and, tangentially, the insurgency in Iraq is more war than terrorism, given the targets), then the systematic abuse of prisoners can also be construed as not simply a crime, but as a war crime, and by extension, as an act of war.

  34. zak822 Avatar
    zak822

    I’m new to this blog. Much of what I’ve read here on the Iraqi prisoner picture strikes me as way off point, bordering on saying “what’s the big deal?”
    If it were Americans in the pictures instead of Iraqi’s, how many of you would still be saying “It’s not torture”?

  35. button Avatar
    button

    I sat through Field Marshal Goering’s cross examination on my radio as a young child; I think I can sit through this due process, too, without encouraging a lynch mob or kangeroo court to take over.
    If it were one of your friends in the photo, posing with the guy wearing the panties on his head, wouldn’t you be asking us to “please wait until all the facts are presented without jumping to conclusions” about your friend? I think so.

  36. miss representation Avatar

    That this need be repeated is sad, but I do not tire of the effort: That you can make such an absurd and inane claim is a result of hundreds of years and thousands of lives lost to insure that you are allowed to make such foolish comments and not suffer the indignities of torture (be it rape or beaten to near death). That you so willingly piss on that privilege with such comments is a betrayal that is hard to make clear without resorting to harsh language. Democracy is an ideal about humanity that is strikingly self evident and incredibly fragile. Even a modicum of respect for what your responsibilities are in the face of that privilege would help restore the ideal we have worked so hard to construct, even as flawed as it is. Has nothing been learned since Hammurabi? For those who read this, I’m sorry such foolishness is what passes for the public discourse of our representatives. We allow it — no, we encourage it — since we have yet to forge a better way. But do not embrace it as representative of anything more that the perverted notions of an individual, whom we will defend in his right to speak in a way that embarasses us all.

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