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A bad Friedman day

67 comments on A bad Friedman day

A bad Friedman day

: I call myself a “Tom Friedman Democrat.” But today I call Tom Friedman way wrong.

He starts today’s column endorsing the dangerous deadend doctrine of diplomacy by popularity.

We are in danger of losing something much more important than just the war in Iraq. We are in danger of losing America as an instrument of moral authority and inspiration in the world. I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today. I was just in Japan, and even young Japanese dislike us. It’s no wonder that so many Americans are obsessed with the finale of the sitcom “Friends” right now. They’re the only friends we have, and even they’re leaving.

It’s bad enough that he also tried way too hard to make a pop-culture reference and conveniently join the Friends hooha — looking rather like a doughy middle-aged guy trying to wear clothes out of H&M while rapping. But that’s a literary criticism.

The real problem is that this is the same argument opponents made to the war in Iraq — the same war that Friedman supported: It wouldn’t make us any friends. Well, first off, experience shows that having friends doesn’t do us much good in time of need. France, Germany, and Russia have proven to be fairweather friends at best. With friends like those, who needs friends? Second, if making friends were our goal, we’d take on all kinds of horrid positions: We’d drop Israel like a hot knish; we’d go the FCC one better and endorse censorship of all our amoral media; we’d play trade policy like an episode of Queen for a Day; we’d ignore human rights violations of China and North Korea and too many Arab nations. Third, if we did as Friedman suggests and bowed before the altar of the U.N. as if it were an authority on what’s right we’d truly give up any pretense of world leadership and we’d give it up to an organization that has proven itself to be morally unreliable. It’s not about making friends.

Friedman then joins the lynch mob forming on the left against Donald Rumsfeld:

This administration needs to undertake a total overhaul of its Iraq policy; otherwise, it is courting a total disaster for us all.

That overhaul needs to begin with President Bush firing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

67 responses to “A bad Friedman day”

  1. Howard Beale Avatar
    Howard Beale

    http://tinyurl.com/26ryh
    Above is a link to the Google cache of the weblog of Joe Ryan, a CACI Interrogator who works at Abu Ghraib. I like the part about his shirt stain.

  2. michael Avatar
    michael

    I think the jury is still out on whether Rumsfeld has executed war in Iraq “brilliantly.”

  3. ed cone Avatar
    ed cone

    A bad Friedman day? A bad Jarvis day is more like it.
    You ignored Friedman’s key point: “the war on terrorism is a war of ideas, and to have any chance of winning we must maintain the credibility of our ideas.”
    Fixing this debacle fast and in public is about winning the war, not just making people feel warm and fuzzy.
    Was the torture that shocking, you ask? Seymour Hersh suggests that we haven’t seen the worst yet. But in any case, comparing it to a violent TV show seems a little beside the point.
    Rationalization on the grounds we’re at war doesn’t change what it was — and at least some of it was done for sport, as evidenced by the photos of proud sadists.
    Should Rummy go? Josh Marshall says neocons and Republicans in the Senate, not just “the lynch mob forming on the left” seem to think so. Before we fight another war we’ve got to finish winning this one.

  4. Roger L. Simon Avatar
    Roger L. Simon

    Superb post. Spot on!

  5. Will Avatar
    Will

    “And was the “torture” all that shocking? Hell, watch an episode of Oz and compare.”
    Compare the real torture of prisoners to a TV show – you’re kidding, right?
    “It’s bad enough that he also tried way too hard to make a pop-culture reference…”
    In the same post, connections, anyone?

  6. Max Avatar
    Max

    One thing that could make (if possible) the mess in Iraq worse if it hits the press was a comment by Seymour Hersh (who wrote an article on the prisoners in this week’s issue of the New Yorker): A few nights ago he was on Charlie Rose as part of a panel to discuss the prisoner abuse thang and when the subject of “contractors” came up, Hersh said the US had hired Israelis to perform interrogations. (His actual words were something like “contractors from a nation in the region well known to be very friendly to the United States.” Charlie then rapidly changed the topic.) I’m awaiting the Al Jazeera headline “US hires Jews to torture Muslims.” Cheers
    You think Rummy didnt know who these “Contractors” were?
    Screw Rummy he is small change- Impeach Bush

  7. superfly Avatar
    superfly

    It would be nice if doing the right thing was always popular, but if you have to choose between doing the right thing and doing the popular thing, do the right thing.

  8. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    How to explain the American obsession with confession and apology? Look at where the demand for such admissions of failure comes from:
    — The press, not just for the obvious headlines or ponderous prognostications, but also for the self-congratulatory subtext (we ferret out the story they don’t want you to hear!).
    — The opposition, from Republicans demanding contrition of Clinton, to the folks now determined to make sure every buck stops conveniently on Bush’s desk.
    The strategic significance of such protestations is highly overrated. Any child on any playground can tell you that compulsory apologies are not about the expressing of regret, they are about humiliating the bully.
    Current reporting from the middle east confirms the fact that mea culpas will be brushed aside as quickly as the words are spoken. The jury is always out till measurable action is taken.

  9. Matt Welch Avatar
    Matt Welch

    The means were wrong but the end was right

    This is the language of Castro’s remaining sympathizers, of Kissinger defenders, Weathermen apologists, Vietnam hawks, and egg-breaking omelette-makers the world over. I’d be very hesitant about going there.

  10. jakob Avatar
    jakob

    Jeff, since you seem to see everything in black and white, it should be easy for you to answer a few simple questions.
    If we are at war, with whom are we at war?
    More importantly, how will we know when we have won? Or are we condemned to fight this war forever?
    If this is a war of good versus evil, on which side are the Americans who have been stripping, humiliating, sodomizing and even killing Iraqi prisoners in their own country?
    I read your account of your experiences on Sept. 11, 2001, and found it to be interesting and moving. I can understand the rage you feel toward the perpetrators (none of whom, by the way, were Iraqi).
    Now, how would you say your experience compared with those of the Iraqi prisoners who appear in those disgraceful photos? Better or worse? How about Iraqi civilians who have lost their children, or been maimed or killed because of the U.S. invasion of their country? Better or worse?
    How do you think they, their friends and families feel toward the U.S. now? Can you even try to put yourself in their place?
    Given all that has happened, how can we hope to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people?
    In my opinion, we can’t. This is a war that should never have been started.

  11. Reid Avatar
    Reid

    “let’s remember that authority in Iraq was taken away from his man and given to Powell’s man”
    Your must be referring to Paul Bremer. Who was chosen by … Rumsfeld! Who reports to … Rumsfeld, and the Department of Defense, which has controlled the CPA from Day One through today. And if we must play the game of this cabinet secretary versus that cabinet secretary, can we possibly wonder how exactly they got their jobs, and if they have any oversight? You know, like from above? If you think post-war Iraq has been botched, the buck stops in one place.
    And we have not entered the era of apology. We’re on the Planet of Victims, where no one ever has to take responsibility for their own actions, as long as they retain the strength the lift a finger and point it at someone … “he made me do it.”
    I’m not even going to get into the whole torture/Oz compariosn, as that reeks of “what he did was worse than what I did.” I though we all grew out of that in kindergarten. Wrong is wrong, there is no “relative” to it.

  12. Yehudit Avatar
    Yehudit

    “(His actual words were something like “contractors from a nation in the region well known to be very friendly to the United States.””
    Um, Jordan? We’re already on record as sending prisoners to be interrogated there. Why do you assume it’s Israel? Hm?

  13. Ebb Tide Avatar
    Ebb Tide

    Bush apologized. at length. to the leader of Jordan today, in public.
    You are wrong on this one Jeff, we do need friends, in the Middle East and elsewhere.
    We can not be the world’s policeman alone and we can not flaunt the Geneva COnvention.
    God Bless our troops being held hostage. And for all the ones fighting honorably for an honorable cause, their job just got a lot harder.

  14. Al Avatar
    Al

    Wrong is wrong, there is no “relative” to it.

    Take a look at the criminal code some day. Some crimes carry the death penalty and some crimes have very minor penalties. Why? Because some actions are relatively more wrong than others.
    The moral equivalence of the left constantly amazes me. It is like they say: “Look, we did some bad things to Iraqis too, therefore we have no right to criticize the much worse things that Saddam did!” Please. If you can’t tell the difference between what our soldiers did and what Saddam did, your sense of morality must be seriously impaired. And, yes, I agree that we must set the bar as high as possible – saying that we’re better than Saddam ain’t saying much. But just because we don’t meet the much higher bar we set for ourselves from time to time doesn’t mean that we lose all of our moral authority.

  15. Shannon Love Avatar
    Shannon Love

    The true victims of this event will be those thousands of people around the world every year who are genuinely tortured and murdered by their own governments. The selfishly political hysterical overreaction to these abuses will blunt the moral criticism of real torture for years to come.
    Nobody died. Nobody suffered permanent injury. The worst physical injury was a dog bite. Here we have the isolated abuse of prisoners on par with abuse that occurs every couple of years within the civilian prison systems of the developed world, hyped up into the second coming of Auswitchs.
    Its disgraceful.

  16. Mark Poling Avatar
    Mark Poling

    I have to agree the “Oz” thing was a bit much. War can take good people and make them bad. It can take bad people and make them worse. One of the two happened here, and saying “this wasn’t so bad” ignores the huge lapse in discipline and leadership shown.
    Otherwise, I think your analysis was great. Nothing points to a failure in Rumsfield’s leadership; far from it. The hidden story here is that the military policed itself. I agree that Friedman overreacted. The General in charge will go to prison. She was there, on the ground, and in charge. We don’t have spies monitoring our generals; we do have soldiers brave enough to blow a whistle, and I’m glad that it worked in this case. That soldier is a credit to his (or her) uniform and country.

  17. John in Tokyo Avatar
    John in Tokyo

    Tom Friedman is wrong about anti-Americanism in Japan. I’m sure you can find it, especially if you go to a University and talked to students and professors (some things are ever thus). But it’s nothing like S. Korea or Europe.

  18. Just John Avatar
    Just John

    “…Republicans demanding contrition of Clinton…”
    Isn’t that like demanding water to flow downhill? If I recall correctly, Republicans at the time actively disliked the lip-biting and pain-feeling; they were saying, “You broke the law, you can be sorry all day long but you have to face the music all the same.” Which is pretty much the refrain today.

  19. kkl Avatar
    kkl

    Amen, Jeff.

  20. puggs Avatar
    puggs

    I’m perfectly content to let those idiot MP’s pay the price for doing what they did, I was an Air Force SP and to suggest they didn’t know it was wrong and had to be told torturing was illegal is bullshit, they knew.
    That said, Al is quite right, this whining over the case as being something that puts us in the same level of Hell as Saddam is insane. To qoute from one comment,
    “Now, how would you say your experience compared with those of the Iraqi prisoners who appear in those disgraceful photos? Better or worse? How about Iraqi civilians who have lost their children, or been maimed or killed because of the U.S. invasion of their country? Better or worse?”
    How about the Iraqi’s who lost family members in the dead of night to Uday’s goons? How about the delivery of family members bodies to their own doorstep in trash bags and the family being billed for the bullets? How about all the thousands who filled unmarked mass graves in a country where the slightest hint of individual thought could cost you your children?
    War is a harsh tool, but it’s the only one that works. To suggest that we have caused a greater evil by giving the Iraqi’s back a future when they had none before is height of moral blindness. Apples and oranges.
    The arguement that this proves we are just as bad is to say that you want an excuse to do nothing. You want a reason to look away. Don’t anyone dare make that case then complain about genocide unchecked elsewhere in the world. The US takes down a tyrant, and some of you feel guilty about it?
    Why? Don’t trade the good for the perfect, cause you can’t have it. No one can.

  21. superfly Avatar
    superfly

    Uh Shannon, I think some people may have died. US authorities are looking into several deaths of Iraqi prisoners.
    I do agree that the response from the world is very telling. The US has a few bad apples that torture that we, as a matter of policy, are going to try and if found guilty punish and the world erupts into a frenzy. Other countries (Iraq, North Korea, China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. etc.) torture people as a matter of state policy and the world yawns and then elects them to the UN human rights council. As bad as I think the torture US troops is, the rest of the world’s lack of reaction to other incidents of torture makes me hold their judgement of the US in contempt.

  22. Mark Poling Avatar
    Mark Poling

    The one good that might come of this is it gives the world a solid “compare and contrast” example of the way governments should relate to the governed.
    Maybe. One can hope.

  23. section9 Avatar
    section9

    First, there is no sense in talking down this incident. The lickspittle Jew-baiters in the Arab and European press will make sure that it gets news. We have to impress upon our own men that this is no lawless Praetorian Guard. The UCMJ must be applied in this case unsparingly and with ruthlessness. Puggs above was quite right: these assholes knew the difference between right and wrong.
    Their actions have stained the storied banners of our fighting battalions from the Corps, the First Cavalry, the First Infantry, and other units in-country. To me, that is the greatest offense of all.
    That said, the enterprise remains a great one. Friedman is simply losing his nerve, something we shall see more and more of as the years go by and the war progresses. One of the more disappointing things that I have seen about liberals and the left in general is the general loss of a will to win this war. They cover their bets by blaming Bush, but in reality, they don’t have the stomach to take on the bin Ladenists in a generational conflict. The constant refrain of “why are they angry at us” implies that we need to change our behavior to curry favor with fascist barbarians.
    Not exactly Horatius at the Gates stuff now, is it? But I’m reminded of the Cold War, as history appears to repeat itself. During the eighties, the liberals were all for the Nuclear Freeze, against the Pershing deployments, sympathetic to the Sandinist regime in Managua. They wanted a grand bargain with the likes of Yuri Andropov, KGB thug, who personally supervised the invasion of Czecheslovakia in 1968. Even Mondale peddled this nonsense.
    Fortunately, Reagan was President.
    Anyhoo, it is instructive to watch Friedman opine about where we went wrong. His going on about a war of ideas and our need to be pure in heart reveals something more corrupting about Friedman and his kind. They want to look as if they are The Good, rather than act as if they carry the convictions of The Good.
    When the liberal elites get this way, as if the world is one big cocktail party, you know that they are neither serious about this war nor are they filled with an intent to win it. Bush is; that’s the difference between him and Kerry. Jarvis is right; the liberals still think this war can be fought while making sure that everyone still likes us. That’s Fantasyland, but then again, these same liberals thought that “Bowling for Columbine” was a work of art.

  24. rosignol Avatar
    rosignol

    The demand that Bush fire Rumsfeld is(unintentionally) hilarious. Think about it- Bush kept Tenet after 9/11 *and* after the Iraqi WMDs turned out to not be there, Does anyone (besides Friedman) seriously think he’s going to dump Rumsfeld because some prisoners were mistreated?

  25. George Avatar
    George

    Good post. I had the same reaction to Friedman’s column: he’s gone nuts. But you missed his biggest howler: that Bush “needs to invite to Camp David the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council” and then, among other things, “explain that we are losing in Iraq.” Losing? What the hell is he talking about?
    And you’re right about diplomacy by popularity — although I’m sure that you recognize that there’s a middle ground. If there is any way we can frame our actions so that other people and nations understand them and maybe even appreciate them, we certainly ought to be doing it. That’s SUPPOSED to be what the State Department does. But other nations’ opinions are at best a minor consideration in what we do. Those who are going to hate us will hate us — and moreover, I dispute his contention that we are “more hated around the world” than ever before. Doesn’t Friedman read his colleague Nick Kristof, who has been explaining how America is ADMIRED as never before in neighboring Iran?
    In the final analysis, it’s not necessary that the Iraqis love us; our objectives will be satisfied if they end up in a functioning and relatively non-violent state. Just look at France: America has saved their bacon at least twice in the past hundred years (not counting Vietnam or the Cold War), yet those jackasses look down on us more than any other people on Earth. Knowing that, should we not have fought WWII? Of course not.

  26. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    Just John —
    My point precisely. People may demand apologies, but that’s really not what they’re after.

  27. HH Avatar
    HH

    The calls to fire the Secretary of Defense in the middle of a war are coming far too easily.
    Gee, some “Republicans and neocons” want him out… they’re equally wrongheaded. The “culture of apology” is an outgrowth of political correctness, which I hoped would die a deserved death after September 11… and now we stand to lose this war because it’s still alive.

  28. TV Avatar
    TV

    Jeff,
    Thanks for being a voice of reason.

  29. David Nimmons Avatar
    David Nimmons

    Am I the only one who thinks that the “torture” shown in the photos released seem to be comparable to a fraternity hazing?
    I am angered that it happened, but, torture? Please, lets have some perspective please.

  30. BradDad Avatar
    BradDad

    This whole controversy is assinine.
    First, the abuse of prisoners wasn’t reported by the Washington Post or New York Times – it was reported by an American soldier to the chain of command.
    Second, the chain of command was well on its way to taking both punitive and remedial action long before any pressie spouted a word about any of it – there’s no “cover up” here.
    Third, those charged have a right to have their cases determined based on the evidence presented and, for those found guilty, their sentence based on the facts and evidence … and not the fact that “official” Washington has decided to throw a fit.
    Fourth, Rumsfeld is not responsible for this. These actions were in violation of the rules of war, the rules of engagement, standing orders regarding the treatment and interrogation of prisoners, etc. If Rumsfeld CONDONED it, that would be different – but there’s absolutely no evidence that he did. The evidence, rather, is that DOD & the Military are cleaning up the mess, which is their job.
    Fifth – THERE’S A DAD-BLASTED WAR ON. No, I’m not minimizing it or arguing it’s “O.K.”; those who are found guilty should suffer the appropriate consequences. But let’s assume there are 100 of them – shoot, let’s say there are 500 of them …. the fate of those 500 should not be permitted to interfere with or distract from the tasks which the other 129,500 plus American soldiers are doing. We don’t quit the war or weaken our ability to wage it as some sort of penance for the actions of these few.

  31. Orville Mars Avatar
    Orville Mars

    Good post, Jeff. I like Friedman a lot. However, I read Friedman’s column last night in the NYT electronic edition. All I could think was that he was suffering jet lag or serious fatugue from all of the travel he has been doing lately. He seemed pretty stressed out.
    Get some sleep, Tom.

  32. Wagner Avatar
    Wagner

    > looking rather like a doughy middle-aged guy
    > trying to wear clothes out of H&M while rapping
    Speaking of which, could we start a campaign to get Tom Friedman to shave off his 70’s era mustache? Or maybe better, let some chin hair grow in, so he’s got a goatee/Van Dyke kind of deal? I’m a fan and all, but goddamn, it’s distracting when he’s on *Charlie Rose* talking about globalization and moral capital and such, while looking all Welcome Back Kotter like that.

  33. Other Reid Avatar
    Other Reid

    My two favorite comments above were:
    David Nimmons: “Am I the only one who thinks that the “torture” shown in the photos released seem to be comparable to a fraternity hazing?”
    I agree. Actually, I think some fraternity hazing incidents have been much worse. But, Sy Hersh says there’s worse to come. Maybe that’s the part where they force them to drink from a beer bong, lock ’em in a trunk, drive ’em to Fallujah and force them to find their own way back.
    And, “section9”: “Friedman is simply losing his nerve, something we shall see more and more of as the years go by and the war progresses.”
    Yep.

  34. Kirk Parker Avatar
    Kirk Parker

    Great post indeed, Jeff, but you did slip up a bit in one minor aspect:

    The utterly bungled aftermath

    Sorry, but nobody really knows this. Sure, there are aspects that are not going well or easy in absolute terms. In many aspects, things have not gone as folks (either pro- or anti-) predicted. But that’s not really enough–the claim that it’s being “bungled” is only credible if there is an strong likelihood that someone else, or a different plan, could have done it better. Well, we all want to see the plan!
    If we want to waste our time debating hypotheticals, that’s one thing. But since we are still there, still in control, and most areas of Iraq are still relatively orderly, I think the burden of proof is still on those making such a claim.
    If nothing else, the recent revelation of the motivation for France and Russia to oppose the invasion, which was not known at the time*, ought to inspire in commentators a little more humility.
    (*Though some far-seeing individuals hinted at it–Den Beste, anyone?)

  35. AST Avatar
    AST

    From various reports, it seems that the forces manning these these facilities were seriously undermanned. I think that should be corrected ASAP. These soldiers need and deserve support as much as the Marines fighting in Fallujah. That doesn’t excuse or condone what they did. They’ll pay for it.
    However, it seems quite idiotic to conclude that that Bush or Rumsfeld somehow authorized this behavior. If they had, there wouldn’t be any photos floating around. The military started this investigation when another serviceman saw what was happening and reported it. It duly reported it last January, and the press barely noticed. Then photos turned up and everybody’s hair is on fire. I think the military can take care of it.
    There is a pretty good sized population of Americans over there. It would be kind of naive to think there weren’t any miscreants among them. The recruiters don’t ask for your Sunday School attendance records. So when they turn up, the military deals with them. Also it’s instructive to the rest of the world to see due process in action.
    I wish the press and its sycophants would just go up to their rooms and cry until they feel better and come down when they’ve learned to behave.
    The grownups are too busy right now to take time out for this tantrum.

  36. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    I find the idea that you’d compare the torture of Iraqi civilians to the activities of criminals on a fictitious TV show abominable.
    And the argument that what we did isn’t nearly so bad as what so-and-so did is simplistic, juvenile, morally reprehensible. I thought the United States is supposed to be a *good* example. Supposedly favorable comparison against Saddam Hussein is irrlevant. Just prosecute the case that’s in front of you.
    Furthermore, this torture isn’t remotely like hazing, which also happens to be illegal in many states. College students *elect* to join fraternities which engage in that sort of asinine behavior. That still doesn’t justify the way they’re treated. These Iraqis didn’t submit themselves to this abuse.
    As many people have said: if it were Americans being treated that way by Iraqis – well, what would your response be then?
    The hypocrisy on display by *some* on the right about this is nothing short of nauseating. In fact, it’s misanthropic.

  37. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    You’re right Robert S. Its the thought of that happening to Americans that keeps me humbled somewhat about the episode. But these weren’t simple shepherds and widows in this prison. The animals were hiding and shooting American’s dead when they had already been beaten. Nothing but the typical Arab cult of death has motivated them to kill. The world’s outrage is what is nauseating. The gaul of Arabs and Europeans to be furious when so much worse has happend and is happening now under the watch of the UN or N Korea, and Sudan. Godless socialists all of them. What happened is shameful but there is no one in the world I can’t look in the eye and dismiss their complaints with well deserved contempt.

  38. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    Actually, Ptolemy, some of these prisoners may have been simple shepards and widows.
    Regardless, if the United States is to have any moral authority at all, it must be above this sort of horror.
    No amount of finger-pointing–look they did just as bad, worse–is going to cultivate that sort of authority.

  39. Giles Avatar
    Giles

    GOOD POST JEFF
    But where did this apology mania come from? The couches of New York.
    First lets kill the shrinks

  40. Whispered Enigma Avatar
    Whispered Enigma

    Robert S.:
    Wow, there MUST be shepards and widows in the prison because YOU said so. After all, YOU are the expert on Iraqi affairs!

  41. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    Whispered Enigma: Wow, there MUST be shepards and widows in the prison because YOU said so. After all, YOU are the expert on Iraqi affairs!
    Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say “must”; I said “may.” What is known to those who’ve bothered to read up on this material is that innocent people were included, rounded up and mistreated.
    From Seymour Hersh–much more of an expert than either of us–in the latest New Yorker:
    Most of the prisoners, however

  42. Other Reid Avatar
    Other Reid

    Bob S. – yeah, it’s bad stuff. So is fraternity hazing. Your claim that hazing victims volunteer to be abused is asinine.
    But, honestly, why is a naked pyramid worse than a pregnant woman and her four daughters getting shot in Israel? Hmm? That’s something I’d really like to know.

  43. Other Reid Avatar
    Other Reid

    Which is not to excuse things but, boom, it happened and, the perpetrators are being punished. So, why don’t we now occupy our time with genuinely important stuff that has not been resolved?

  44. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    Other Reid: I did NOT say they volunteer to be abused, I said “college students *elect* to join fraternities which engage in that sort of asinine behavior.” Additionally, I said “That still doesn’t justify the way they’re treated.” (Another student of the school of the misquote – I think Sean Hannity is the principal.)
    So what’s your point? Mine is that it’s terrible when such things happen to students who’ve chosen to join a group which then engages in this sort of rubbish. They’re still taken advantage of, yes. And that sort of behavior is reprehensible. The metaphor remains invalid because these Iraqis didn’t choose to join a fraternity, AND the treatment they’ve received is much worse. Some are DEAD as a result. And from all current reports, it’s likely much more widespread than initially thought.
    Let’s pretend for a moment that the hazing metaphor were valid: let’s say that your son came home from college. Let’s say he was a fundamentalist Christian who didn’t believe in appearing naked before a woman. And let’s say he was forced to strip and masturbate in front of other men and women. Or forced to strip, attached to a leash, forced to lay on the ground while a woman holds the leash. Or he’s forced to engage in simulated sex, his penis thrust into another man’s naked buttocks while photos are taken of him. And let’s say he didn’t choose to join the fraternity – didn’t choose to join any fraternity at all in fact. He was rounded up with a bunch of other freshmen, some of whom may have wanted to join the fraternity, but the seniors doing this hazing had no idea who was who. Let’s say one of these freshman is accidentally killed in the process and is snuck out to an ambulance with an IV in his arm so it appears he’s still alive. Let’s say your son comes home fractured, humiliated and frightened by all he’s endured.
    What do you say?
    “Get over it son. It’s just a college hazing. What do you expect?”
    What do you expect of those who represent the United States on the battlefield?

  45. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    And by the way, I never said a pyramid of naked men was worse than a dead pregnant woman and her four dead daughters. More words you’re putting in my mouth. Don’t assume you know what’s in my head. Such atrocities by Palestinians against Israelis are horrific and inexecusable. And so are atroticities by Israelis against Palestinians. Neither side has cornered the market on hate. And, as were currently seeing, hate seethes beneath the skin of some in our own military forces, too.

  46. Other Reid Avatar
    Other Reid

    “Such atrocities by Palestinians against Israelis are horrific and inexecusable”
    And yet, they hardly merit a blip on the evening news, or on the radar screens of countries that we now know were bought and paid for by Saddam’s regime, while we are being consumed by this “hazing” event. Yes, hazing. It is an apt analogy, your overwrought sputtering notwithstanding.
    Your protestations are weak. Hazing victims volunteer to join a fraternity. They do not volunteer for hazing. And, yes, quite a few have died.
    And, really, are you so hung up on sex and the human body that you really think these episodes of fleshy contact are so horrific?
    As for my point, I’ve made it. Why is a favorite tactic of lefties to ignore your point and then claim you haven’t made one?
    Here it is again:
    “Which is not to excuse things but, boom, it happened and, the perpetrators are being punished. So, why don’t we now occupy our time with genuinely important stuff that has not been resolved?”

  47. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    Other Reid, you say my description is overwrought. Funny, it’s actually just literal description–without embellishment–of exactly what happened to those Iraqis.
    You’re right though: there’s a lot to be done. There’s a misguided, pre-emptive war to be completed in Iraq. There’s Osama Bin Laden and others of his ilk to be rounded up. And, figuring into this picture, a sad fact which can’t be ignored: the likelihood that innocent people are commonly being mistreated by Amerian military and civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and in Guant

  48. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    And, Other Reid, no, I’m not hung up on sex between CONSENTING adults at all, no.
    It’s mainly those on the right who were revolted by Bill Clinton getting a blow job. But FORCING men to masturbate while getting photographed. Forcing them to simulate sex with one another. Forcing them to lay on the floor naked while attached to a leash. That’s “just like hazing.”
    I find those attitudes immensely hypocritical. Not to mention misanthropic.
    What profound irony that you’d attempt to call ME on that.

  49. Nicole Griffin Avatar
    Nicole Griffin

    I’m glad it wasn’t just me – I used to love Tom Friedman, but lately, as someone said above, he seems to be losing his nerve about the war.
    George –
    “But you missed his biggest howler: that Bush “needs to invite to Camp David the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council” and then, among other things, “explain that we are losing in Iraq.” Losing? What the hell is he talking about?”
    That was the part that jumped out at me, too. But you still missed even the worst part of it – not only did Friedman recommend inviting the five security council countries, but also “the five the heads of both NATO and the U.N., and the leaders of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria.” Syria? Are you kidding?

  50. Mork Avatar
    Mork

    Losing his nerve?
    Truly, Nicole, you display the wisdom of the kamikaze!
    All I can say is that I wonder what it would take …

  51. Nicole Griffin Avatar
    Nicole Griffin

    Mork,
    Yes losing his nerve. Friedman has been a supporter of the war from the beginning – not always of the Bush administration’s handling of it, mind you, in fact, often not. But I see very little support for the war anymore in his columns. It used to be that he would offer real critiques of the Bush administration’s policies, specific things that it ought to do differently, but now he just retreats into the same vague or absurd (as I said, Syria???) calls for international cooperation that Kerry himself has been making. International cooperation is not a strategy – it is a means of implementing some other, apparently unknown strategy – and in those calls, I basically hear Friedman wanting us to get out, but not quite wanting to come out and say it, just like Kerry. But Kerry wasn’t an ardent supporter of the war from the start – Friedman was. And I know he didn’t think that war would be easy, because I seem to remember him admonishing Bush for not warning the American public of that enough. Now, just over a year later, he doesn’t want to be there anymore? To steal Glenn Reynolds’ line, Iraq was never going to become Connecticut overnight. If everything had been handled perfectly (an unreasonable expectation) Iraq would have been years from a well-functioning and stable democracy, and I’m quite sure Friedman knew that going in. So I can only conclude that either a) he has changed his opinion on the war altogether, which I suspect is not the case or b) he has lost his nerve.
    In any case, the reason I came back to this comment section was to point out that even The Economist is calling for Rummy’s resignation:
    http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2647493

  52. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    folks… a reminder: no seven dirty words in comments… not because i’m the fcc but because i don’t want the site blocked… i usually don’t bother to clean it, i just kill it….

  53. Becky Avatar
    Becky

    Wow…Jeff Jarvis has a backbone and is willing to stand up for what is right.
    I believe this is a watershed incident. It allows those who have secretly wanted to bash the war, but have been afraid of being told to shut up and sit down, to finally latch onto an incident where they can publically speak up to reestablish their preceived moral superiority.
    I was in an aerobics class when your typical fat, unattractive, I-used-to-be-cool-in-the-60’s, Birkenstock wearing granny got her opportunity to reclaim the day by encouraging the class to show up for a protest over Abu G. Now, I live in a white affluent neighborhood, where conservativism is deeply frowned upon, so she knew she was in a very safe crowd that wouldn’t boo her act.
    But the response was interesting. She did manage to get the crowd to respond politely with “oh, isn’t that terrible”. And there were about three in the crowd who excitedly jumped on the “me-too train”. But that was it. It just died. No attempt to blow on the embers could get that fire to ignite and Granny had to slink off the stage as the spotlight moved elsewhere.
    So anyways…to make a short story long, I impressed. This is an event where the pedal meets the medal and Jeff Jarvis has the conviction to stand tall. Good for him.

  54. doug Avatar
    doug

    Good post Jeff. I feel sorry for those Iraqi’s, They have comitted themselves to die for their 72 virgins and got Rosie the Riviter wearing dogtags instead. Surprize, Suprize, Surprize!

  55. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Well said doug and probably the most correct oberservation to the source of their humiliation. Robert S. your riding high on your sanctimony and it must feel good cause you embellish with each post. Nevertheless, this event will require God’s coming down to earth to deal with. You need persepective and your admission of what you really think about the war shows you have no intention of obtaining it. Like the other Democrats I think you find this event validating to your predjudices about removing Saddam. I feel that millions of other Democrats do at least. You liberals never supported the troops and we all know it.

  56. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    It’s never a good idea to play guess what’s in someone’s head:
    >Calling me sanctimonious is a nice ad hominem attack, but doesn’t serve to argue against anything I’ve said
    >I’m glad Saddam was removed, but not happy with how and when – it should’ve happened in the early 90s, not as part of some push to “export democracy” under the guise of a pre-emptive strike
    >Saying I need perspective and that I’m prejudiced against the war effort is laughable, when you’re prejudiced in favor of it
    >I’ve always supported the troops and think it’s sad how many of them have been convinced that what they’re doing has anything to do with 9/11 – I support the judicious use of the American military – their lives aren’t fodder to be casualy spent – there presence in Afghanistan was much easier to justify
    So quit putting words in my mouth.

  57. doug Avatar
    doug

    jeff youre dead wrong and an idealist>

  58. DRW Avatar
    DRW

    Thanks Jeff. What were these abused prisoners accused of anyway? I know it doesn’t make a difference or excuse the mistreatment – in this country, killers and rapists are set free if the police obtained evidence that incriminated them in violation of the accuseds’ constitutional rights. However, that fact does not give the accused a right of privacy keeping the public from knowing what he was charged with. We deserve to know what these Iraqis did or did not do.

  59. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Did you post bitter statements when four Americans were brutally murdered by the animals in Falluja? I”m not arguing with what you said only with your attitude that American can never again be respected or trusted. I do support the war and have no desire to have made the sacrifices in lives and effort just to abuse the Iraqis ourselves. But this is a small incident to what all is being done there and it is being blown way out of proportion. The people responsible are going to be punished. What else are you aiming at? What else is there for you to say? You appear to be wallowing in this is all.

  60. Robert S. Avatar
    Robert S.

    But this is a small incident to what all is being done there and it is being blown way out of proportion.
    That’s the problem, Ptolemy. According to reports, it’s unlikely that it’s an isolated incident. Let’s hope the attention this problem is getting brings about change for the better.
    The photos of murdered Americans made me ill. I’m not some far-left wingnut who thinks Pat Tillman got what he deserved (Ted Rall has become increasingly cruel). I admire him for giving up a lucrative contract to do something he believed in. And I don’t think we’re treating Iraqis worse than Saddam did as some on the far left think (Rep. Maxine Waters). Just this: the world’s in a sad state. I’m admittedly too idealistic, so it makes me angry when we contribute to it.
    Wallowing? That’s a nice word choice. Another way of looking at it: if you’re not outraged; you’re not paying attention. I’m guessing you’d use the word “outrage” if it were something you were passionate about. Then it wouldn’t be wallowing, would it?
    Finally, I never said that America can never be respected or trusted again. In fact, I think that removing the current administration would go some ways to reinvigorating that trust and respect. But put yourself in the place of the people we came to liberate and ask how soon you’d be willing to trust US.
    Their liberators.

  61. Frank Wallis Avatar
    Frank Wallis

    The current president has launched an escalation of values as an excuse for making war. We have seen the focus of Bush proceed from an imminent threat of WMD being launched against us, to al-Queda being in league with Hussein, to bestowing God’s freedom on the Iraqis. The prison abuse is just an extension of God’s freedom, because it is all part of God’s plan, right? WRONG.

  62. ronbo Avatar
    ronbo

    Underneath the snarkiness, Frank Wallis makes an interesting point: Bush has indeed set the moral bar very high. That’s one reason it really is important for us to treat the abuse of prisoners as more than mere hazing. We must demonstrate that what happened is both unusual and unacceptable, and conduct fair, public trials to show how a democracy handles its own screwups.
    Also, I think many of the self-described “reluctant hawks” are losing their nerve, not just Friedman. The WP ed board comes to mind as having had enough.

  63. O'McSomething Avatar
    O’McSomething

    And was the “torture” all that shocking? Hell, watch an episode of Oz and compare.
    I know most people blog what they know, but please go back to fluffy tv reporting and stay off politics. You are really embarrassing yourself. What will you say when the “even worse” photos and videos are made public?

  64. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    I would have serious problems with the US if I were an Iraqi right now. Nothing you say is wrong in fact I am just paranoid about the left’s tone. Bush has been attacked from day one and throughout this entire war. Forgive me if I suspect the opinions of war opponents for their interpretations of the events. You listed names that agree with my concern so you are aware of the danger I’m seeing with this. I”m embarassed and sad but I still dare an Arab or European to give me attitude about it. Some people are making light of it because the want to minimize it. Its horrible for everyone. “International Outrage” , yeah right. Socialist whores.

  65. JM Avatar
    JM

    Probably no one is reading this thread anymore, but I just wanted to weigh in. I thought Jeff Jarvis mentioned “Oz,” not because he’s unable to distinguish between art and reality, but because one of the central premises of early publicity for the show. Some (possibly all) of the stuff shown on “Oz” happens in American prisons. The assumption is that anyone familiar with “Oz,” and many not, is aware that prison environments are fraught with opportunities for moral corruption of the powerful, dehumanization of both guards and other inmates, and fertile breeding grounds for abusive behavior.
    We should all be full of righteous rage against the atrocities and the perpetrators. Claiming that we are ALL suprised and shocked and had NO idea such things might happen requires a suspension of belief if applied to the entire American polity. IMHO.

  66. SF Avatar
    SF

    I suppose your comment about the abuses being not much worse than an episode of Oz was your own feeble-minded attempt to throw in a pop culture reference and prove your middle-aged coolness (which, even Tom Friedman knows, isn’t cool at all). But, I have to say, ARE YOU FUCKING HIGH? Oz is a TV show. When abuses of power like this happen in real life in the United States — Rodney King — riots happen because it is, at least according to universally accepted rhetoric, “unamerican.” Fuck the ends, the means are evil and are perpetrated by poor enlisted men whose hazing/training indoctrinates them to commit such acts by order and example. And lay off the blame game as well. It shouldn’t matter if it was an army officer, CIA or private contractor — what was being done was unlawful and immoral. You’re not so much a Tom Friedman liberal as an armchair Tom Clancy (that’s my pop culture reference).

  67. reinhard hohlwein Avatar
    reinhard hohlwein

    Hard to believe that people, like yourself, can miss the central point of who we are at war with. We are in Iraq on our own initiative, in a misguided effort to reduce the threat that Saddam was supposed to pose to this country. The ‘war’ there is not an all out assault on the general population. We have notoriously poor intelligence, minimal people who speak Arabic, and the military was trying to create some new sources. The Red Cross has said that 70-90% of the people in these prisons are uncharged and not necessarily guilty of anything. Is it ok by your standards to assume guilt before innocence and then torture as necessary?
    You must be kidding.