The tactics and morality of support

The tactics and morality of support

: My friend Steven Johnson says he wants to make clear that a reason why he and others opposed the war in Iraq was because it could fire up al Qaeda and cause an attack like Spain’s tragic 3/11. (He emailed me saying I was his imaginary debating opponent as he wrote the post; so I’ll make it real). Says Steven:

With the elections yesterday giving control of the Spanish government to the Socialists, over the coalition of the willing’s Popular Party, we’re going to see a wave of posts and op-eds explaining how the 3/11 terrorist attacks threw the election to the party “soft on terror,” thereby allowing Al Qaeda to get exactly what they wanted: a regime that would be “friendly” to them. No doubt a version of this argument will be trotted out again and again during the runup to the 2004 election here….

This formulation needs to be drilled into people’s heads: we opposed the Iraq war because we predicted that this particular engagement would lead to more Al Qaeda strikes, not less. (We supported the Afghanistan war because we felt it would, on the whole, lead to less.) In other words, we thought that invading Iraq was ultimately “friendly” to Al Qaeda: hard on Hussein and his secular dictatorship, but soft on the shadowy, nationless networks of Islamo-fascism. So when the Spanish vote out the Popular Party, or the US votes out the Bush Administration, it’s not that we’re trying to give the terrorists a break. It’s that we think the Bush Administration has been playing directly into the hands of Al Qaeda for the past two years, enraging young Arab men with elective wars that do nothing to combat Bin Laden and his minions directly.

I have many problems with this line of thinking for it is just so much thin moral soup.

First, I do not find it acceptable to decide not to oust Saddam Hussein because we’re afraid it would get terrorists’ dander up. You can have other reasons to say we shouldn’t have invaded Iraq (I don’t), but that’s not one of them. That is allowing the terrorists to manage us. We cannot find ourselves in a position of deciding what we should and should not do in the world based on what bin Laden might do.

Second, I also find it unacceptable to leave millions of people suffering under a tyrant we should have ousted a decade ago just because we are afraid of terrorists.

Third, by this logic, Great Britain would not and should not have entered World War II to defend Europe against Hitler. Nor should we have. Don’t want to piss off Hitler. Don’t want to piss of bin Laden. Same difference.

Fourth, by this same logic, no one should ever support us and we should support no one. The U.N. is pretty much useless now but you might as well shut it down completely and turn it into condos, because any nation that supports another when it is attacked is a damned fool. So no one should have supported us after 9/11 and we should have not supported Kuwait or the people of the former Yugoslavia. That’s clearly unacceptable.

Fifth, there is absolutely no basis for the belief that if we had not invaded Iraq, 3/11 would not have happened. You could try to argue that if Spain had not helped us, they might have picked another country but, again, that is the clearest definition of shirking moral responsibility (aw, let ’em bomb England) and, besides, bin Laden does, remember, have this thing about the Crusades.

Now as to the Spanish elections: Yes, the terrorists had a clear impact on the outcome of the Spanish vote and, as I said yesterday, that may have been the result of the ruling Conservatives’ self-centered insitence on trying to blame this on ETA. But having the vote is itself a victory against the terrorists.

And as to our own elections: If — God forbid! — there is another attack in this country before our elections aimed at steering them, I would not call either possible outcome a victory for the terrorists. A free election is a defeat for them. But before that election, this is why it is now all the more important to have a strong debate on how best to protect us against this terror. And the last thing I want to hear Kerry do is echo this logic that he will protect us by trying not to piss off terrorists.

The best way to piss off terrorists is to hunt them down and exterminate them and I want to hear Kerry and Bush battle for the right to the title of Toughest on Terrorism. I want the President of the United States to piss off terrorists as much as he possibly can. I want to see him continue to put pressure on countries that harbor and grow terrorists (read: Libya). I want to see him bring democracy to the Middle East, for that is the best way to stop bringing up generations of pissed off victims (I am a Tom Friedman liberal hawk).

But let’s be clear: Being soft on terrorism or on Saddam Hussein would not have prevented the tragedy of 3/11.

: Olivier Travers says it far more eloquently than I do:

you can’t have your “Iraq is not connected to terrorism” cake and eat it too.

Amen.

98 responses to “The tactics and morality of support”

  1. Trump Avatar

    WELL SAID.
    Make sure you vote for Bush, the man who fights the terrorists, as opposed to Kerry, the man who would serve the terrorists papers…

  2. Easycure Avatar

    I agree with you 100%.
    It’s a pissing (off) contest, if you will.

  3. Yehudit Avatar

    Very good rebuttal. Over the next 7 months we need to make that case over and over again, so that we don’t have the same election results as Spain.

  4. farley Avatar

    Bush has not been smart on terrorism. He can say he’s tough on terrorism but he hasn’t been effective on terrorism.
    He’s polarizing the world just as he is our country.
    America needs to get beyond this family.

  5. Steven Johnson Avatar
    Steven Johnson

    Jeff, thanks for the detailed rebuttal! I’m all for ridding the world of Saddam Hussein, just as I am many other repressive regimes around the world, including the Saudi royal family. It is simply a matter of priorities for me. The scope and difficulty of the Iraq invasion and occupation meant that it was clearly going to have to be the primary focus of the administration, and that was inevitably going to distract them from what I think — and presumably you think — should be their primary focus: destroying the group that attacked us. As I said, I completely support the Afghanistan invasion because we were going directly after Bin Laden and a nation that had clearly supported him. No doubt that pissed off some terrorists too, but it was worth it, because we were going after the enemy directly. Not so with Hussein.
    So your analogy to Hitler is wrong: Bin Laden is our Hitler, and I say, let’s throw everything we have at him. The problem with the Bush strategy is that they’ve taken their focus *away* from Hitler, and invaded some other country that’s not one of the Axis powers, and started making State Of The Union addresses that don’t even mention Hitler, etc. Meanwhile, Hitler’s still blowing up trains in Europe and hasn’t been located yet.

  6. mateo Avatar

    “I find it unacceptable to leave millions of peole suffering under a tyrant…”
    So when are you going to invade Zimbabwe and take out Robert Mugabe, whose regime is now responsible for mass starvation at home and political subversion in surrounding states?
    Like Iraq, he has not attacked the United States. So, what is the difference? Just asking.

  7. billg Avatar

    Steven said:
    “…we think the Bush Administration has been playing directly into the hands of Al Qaeda for the past two years, enraging young Arab men with elective wars that do nothing to combat Bin Laden…
    This is wrong. Existing terrorism can be eliminated only by eliminating existing terrorists. Future terrorism can be prevented only by democratizing Arab nations and giving their people a real stake in their own progress. Until then, people who have been trapped in radical despair by the decades-long failures of their own leaders will turn to false prophets of religion and glory.
    Altering one’s behavior to placate criminals is appeasement. Appeasement is tantamount to participating in the crime itself: appeasers share responsibility with the appeased. “Buying off” terrorists may protect you in the short-term, but it frees the terrorists to murder your neighbor, an act for which you now equally culpable.

  8. onecent Avatar

    And the last thing I want to hear Kerry do is echo this logic that he will protect us by trying not to piss off terrorists.
    Sorry, Jeff, but Kerry has already made his utterance as to where he stands on appeasement when he stated that he has the endorsement of European leaders not named. Logic tells us it sure ain’t the Tony Blairs of Europe.
    Kerry knows the sequence of events before the Spanish election with the blatant move by AQ to rig the outcome in their favor as witnessed by the rest of us. You won’t hear a denouncement from him at what the terrorist did, he’s too happy with the outcome.

  9. Swopa Avatar

    Jeff, you missed Steven’s point:
    … we think the Bush Administration has been playing directly into the hands of Al Qaeda for the past two years, enraging young Arab men with elective wars that do nothing to combat Bin Laden and his minions directly.
    The fallacy throughout your reply is that “the terrorists” are a specific, finite group who exist now and if we just hunt them down and kill them, everything will be fine. It would be nice if that were true, but is isn’t.
    Like any other ideological group, Al Qaeda recruits people to join its ranks. And their pitch is, “The U.S. is at war against Islam — come join us to defend Islam.”
    Steven’s point is that invading Iraq made that pitch (even though it’s wrong) a lot easier to sell — in effect, creating more terrorists. Even worse, it did so while doing nothing to hurt Al Qaeda, who if anything are more present in Iraq now than they were before the war.
    You, like Aznar, may feel that the Iraq war was worth fighting nevertheless. But the people of Madrid may sort of wish that you’d gotten their permission before betting their lives on it.

  10. Syl Avatar

    The ‘losing focus’ by invading Iraq meme is an argument used by the unserious…it defies the facts. Just because the press focuses on Iraq doesn’t mean we’re not doing anything else. We have CIA and FBI and special forces all over the goddamned world working their butts off. Two thirds of AQ’s leadership and middlemen taken out. Khan’s network taken down. Libya disarming.
    Not to mention diplomatic activities with several nations.
    Bin Laden in hiding (or dead). He can’t even show his face on video! He’s reduced to passing messages by courier, for pete’s sake. We knocked him back to the 7th century where he belongs.
    Our success in Iraq is a huge huge loss for the Islamists. They’re getting desparate to get us out. Since we won’t leave, they’ve hit the shia to try to start a civil war. Didn’t work. They’ve hit our coalition partners inside Iraq. Didn’t work. Now they’re hitting them in their home countries, well one for now. I’m sure it was AQ in cahoots with ETA.
    Maybe Spain will pull out of the coalition but bless Poland, they’ll make up the troop difference.

  11. onecent Avatar

    But the people of Madrid may sort of wish that you’d gotten their permission before betting their lives on it.
    So, Spain was a colony of ours, sucked into an alliance with Bush without their permission. And Anzar, unlike Chirac and Schroeder, was our Banana Republic lackey in Europe. Don’t bet on who’s lives will be safe as the terrorists gain leverage in Europe. This is a war with many casualties yet to be realized.

  12. Shark Avatar

    He’s polarizing the world just as he is our country
    So what? That’s what happens when you DO something. It’s hard to polarize when you lay back and listen to opinion polls all day.
    If your standard is that low, I feel sorry for you.
    PS- Who REALLY polarized America? Bush, or the bitter, hysterical Dems who will stop at nothing to get back into power?
    Who REALLY polarized the world? Bush, or Chirac and Schroeder, who backstabbed us at the UN for their own delusions of political importance after negotiating a bad-faith deal with Powell?
    Think HARD.

  13. mateo Avatar

    re Tyrants to be overthrown:
    forgot to mention: like Saddam, Robert Mugabe has no WMD. Perhaps David Kay and Hans Blicx can confirm it, just as they had for Iraq. But watch out for exile groups telling tall tales that send us off on futile chases.
    Give up the Wilsonian crusade: you will not be able to teach them to elect “good men.”

  14. WhoMan Avatar

    Jeff,
    “The best way to piss off terrorists is to hunt them down and exterminate them …”
    That is the right way of fighting terrorism, not deciding to fix your dripping faucet (invading Iraq) when one part of your house is on fire (being attacked by terrorists).
    I am glad that Saddam is gone, but when was exactly the last time that invading a country has brought about democracy in the invaded country (Japan and Germany in WWII had a different economic base than Iraq has. Plus Germany had democratic experience before Hitelr)?

  15. Syl Avatar

    “like Saddam, Robert Mugabe has no WMD”
    Oh get serious. Unlike Mugabe, Saddam was under a CEASEFIRE and required by over a dozen U.N. resolutions to come clean and dissarm totally. He did not. We aren’t spending billions a year protecting no-fly zones over Mugabe, we don’t have troops in neighboring countries to keep Mugabe from invading his neighbors.

  16. hey Avatar

    im all for invading zim…
    actually, the US should really take over most of africa, maybe along with uk
    they really need our help, and it has to be longer term than involvement in liberia/sierra leone, etc
    more of a german/japanese occupation
    but im, just a racist colonialist who actually wants to improve the lives of people everywhere, rather than letting them die in the pure bliss of authentically homegrown despots

  17. shark Avatar

    That is the right way of fighting terrorism, not deciding to fix your dripping faucet (invading Iraq) when one part of your house is on fire (being attacked by terrorists).
    Idiocy. In case you didn’t notice, our anti-terrorism activities in Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. didn’t stop while we were in Iraq. You didn’t notice because it didn’t fit in with your meme

  18. JorgXMcKie Avatar
    JorgXMcKie

    As I remember it, Al Queda was actively recruiting well _before_ Bush et al attacked Iraq. Why were they doing it then? Also, wasn’t point number 3 on their list recapturing Andalusia? In addition, I have my doubts that putting mechanized divisions in Afghanistan would be all that helpful in capturing bin Laden (if he’s still alive to be captured). It would just leave him enormous swaths of Arabic nations (and others) to take refuge in. By invading Iraq, among other things, we have shrunk the places he may go. I sincerely doubt he really wants to hole up in remote parts of Pakistan or Afghanistan. He’s there (if alive) because it’s not safe to go to, say Iraq.
    Finally, I am getting really tired of two unspoken propositions unaddressed by those unhappy with invading Iraq: 1) if we can’t do everything we can think of that would be useful (e.g. remove Mugabe) then we shouldn’t do anything. It’s all or none; 2) In times of threat, we should retreat to our basements, go to the SW corner, bend over, put our heads between our knees and kiss our a**es good-bye.
    Perhaps a live jackal is, indeed, better than a dead lion, but who says we can’t, on average, be live lions?
    Finally, if _we_ (the free citizens of the US) aren’t willing to tackle the hard jobs, who do you suggest is? We can be wrong, and should be corrected when wrong, but someone needs to try.

  19. Hipocrite Avatar
    Hipocrite

    Imagine that you have hypothetical terrorists out there. They do something really bad. Later you go in, kill alot of terrorists, capture their leader, and ruin them.
    “Crikey,” the terrorists say, “when we do something bad, it looks like Evil Americans destroy our base of operations, capture our leader and harass us across the globe. Badness dosen’t seem to work too well from a cost-benefit perspective, does it.”
    Now, let’s think of a second situation. Terrorists do something bad. We pretend to destroy the terorists base of operations, fail to capture the leader, and don’t put a lot of effort into global anti-terrorism. Then, because we can, we demolish some other random country that the terrorists weren’t alltogether fond of.
    “Crikey,” the terrorists say, “doing bad things makes the American’s go totall bat-s**t. Let’s do it again, and again, and again!”
    We opposed the Iraq war because we had not yet finished the War on Terror. We opposed the Iraq war because it reduced the Bayesian liklehood of terrorism having a substantial likleyhood of negative consequences. This is not opposing the Iraq war because it inflames terrorists – it’s opposing the Iraq war because there were better ways to stop them.
    The best way to piss off terrorists is to hunt them down and exterminate them. It’s really too bad that Bush isn’t interested in doing that.
    Being stronger on terrorism would have stopped 311. Instead we were stronger on Iraq. Why?

  20. michelle Avatar
    michelle

    Can’t one hold the position that in the short term invading Iraq would be inflame Islamic militants and in the long run, an industrious, democratic Iraq would ultimately consign Salafi fundamentalism to the dustbin of history.
    I wish the Iraqis could appeal directly to the Spaniards to stay and provide assistance during their transition from a fascist tyranny to a pluralistic society. The Spaniards of all people should understand this.

  21. onecent Avatar

    (Japan and Germany in WWII had a different economic base than Iraq has. Plus Germany had democratic experience before Hitelr)?
    Germany destroyed its private sector leaving only the arms producers standing. It focused on slave laborers while its young males were fed to the killing fields. Nazi Germany was no paradigm of capitalistic success before. There was no economic base not dedicated to their war efforts. The Nazis burnt Germany and most Europe to the ground by the end. What economic base was that?
    Germany’s “democratic experience” was a moot point to the liberators of its death camps. Japan had an entrenched Samuri culture not so unlike the 11th century mind-set of today’s Islamic fundmentalists. It reformed only after total defeat.
    Iraq had/has more going for it pre- and post-Saddam.

  22. shark Avatar

    Yup. The terrorists won in Spain:
    The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster,” Zapatero, 43, told Cadena Ser radio Monday
    This is the new Spanish leader. That country with a new constitution and freedom is a disaster.
    Only to a socialist.

  23. Dann Avatar

    mateo-
    Flat wrong. As has been more than adequately documented, Iraq did maintain a network of clandestine laboratories doing research on various chemical and biological weapons. Saddam Hussein had made is quite obvious that he intended to revert to his prior program of WMD development and production, once the UN sanctions had been lifted.
    As soon as Robert Mugabe establishes a similar network of laboratories conducting similar operations, I will be advocating his ouster as well…..
    ….regardless of whether or not he gets around to actually building missiles and bombs to deliver the stuff.
    -Regards

  24. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Far as Jeff’s argument goes:
    1. Agree with those who’ve said above that Jeff’s arguing against a strawman with the stuff about “don’t piss off the terrorists.” The point is “don’t fight the war of ideas on their terms.” They’re not even close to the same thing, and it’s dishonest to pretend otherwise. (And you know, it would be nice if the war bloc spent less time playing dumb. Olivier Travers’ attempt to condense the kind of point made by Steven into “Iraq is not connected to terrorism” is just silly. What’s so &*#@ing complex about saying that Iraq was not connected to al Qaeda, but al Qaeda can and probably has used the Iraq invasion to its advantage? The point is speculative, but you can’t dispose of it by refusing to address it.)
    2. I also don’t buy the selective outrage about Iraq and people “living under a tyrant” — and sorry folks, but that is relevant if Hussein’s regime was supposed to be such an unspeakable cancerous horror that it couldn’t be allowed to persist another minute by any moral, thinking human being. If that alone is a casus belli*, we should be invading any number of African nations right now and North Korea, Pakistan and China to boot. If you supported the war on humanitarian grounds, I disagree with you but I understand why — but don’t go climbing on a high horse about it, you’re in no position to.
    3. I don’t agree with Steve or Jeff about using the WWII analogy. Osama bin Laden is our Osama bin Laden — we can only defeat al Qaeda by understanding our times and politics and how those can work for us or against us in fighting terrorism. Trying to convinece ourselves that we’re living in some combination of 1939 and 1945 is just not helpful. (And Swopa gets it exactly right: we’re not fighting a finite army of bad guys who will lay down their arms once we’ve taken a certain amount of territory. We’re fighting a recruitment and propaganda network as well as specific terrorists, and the war on terrorism must take that into account in a serious way.)
    4. The argument that Iraq was a distraction from the fight with al Qaeda is not a claim that absolutely nothing else was happening. It’s a claim that the resources invested in Iraq — diplomatically, financially, militarily — could have been invested far more effectively in other things. To me, it’s egregious that nuclear proliferation has wallowed largely in obscurity while Bush spent his political cred on a dictator who not a threat in that regard. To me, it’s insane that billions have gone into Iraq and into untested missile defenses and a paltry amount has gone into securing America’s ports. Don’t talk to me about how Bush is “tough on terrorism” as long as that’s the case.
    Finally, I am getting really tired of two unspoken propositions unaddressed by those unhappy with invading Iraq:
    And I’m pretty tired of faux-tough keyboard warriors who invent strawman “unspoken propositions” for people who disagree with them. Grow up.

  25. WhoMan Avatar

    Germany and Japan had a group of skilled labourers, engineers, and professional whose career didn’t rely on tapping a black liquid that just happens to be there in some places. There are a lot of researches done on the impact of a natural resources that brings in a large revenue to an economy (search for Dutch Disease in the google).
    The German and Japanese workers made the foundation for these countries’ economic miracle when everything was set properly and they got a chance. It won’t be the same in Iraq.

  26. shark Avatar

    Being stronger on terrorism would have stopped 311. Instead we were stronger on Iraq. Why?
    1) Going into Iraq didn’t mean we stopped our actions in other areas
    2) Going into Iraq was a strike at the terrorists in a fundamental way, not just removing a safe harbor for them, or a flashpoint that incited them, or even removing a potential future partner.
    Given the actions of Iran, Libya, Pakistan- it may be the strongest move yet

  27. Blue Eyed Devil Avatar
    Blue Eyed Devil

    What happens if Al Qaeda doesn’t accept the abject Spanish apology? What do the Pax Peeps do then? Do you think they’ve thought this through. Say goodbye to the nude beaches. Say hello to a burka clad stroll with a very close male relative instead.
    Th

  28. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Given the actions of Iran, Libya, Pakistan- it may be the strongest move yet
    1. You’re not making sense. Libya’s deal was in the works since before Bush came to power — the Iraq war can’t take credit for it. Iran showed signs of cooperating after the neocon agenda began to look like it had bogged down in Iraq. And Pakistan — which has actually shown little solid evidence of getting tough on nuclear proliferation — was supposed to have been an American ally. It’s just absurd to argue that they needed intimidating by the invasion of an unrelated state — an invasion which likely made problems for them with their own radical constituency.
    2. But of course, all this is coming from someone who wished this terrorist attack on the French for failing to support Bush. Presumably, your crocodile tears for the Spanish are dry now that they’ve dared to defy the will of Dear Leader, and you’re wishing for more terrorist attack on them too. So really, shark, why should we care what you think?
    What happens if Al Qaeda doesn’t accept the abject Spanish apology?
    Heady stuff, isn’t it, talking tough from behind your keyboard? But this is repugnant, dude. The Spanish are still burying their dead and you have the nerve to be talking about their “abject apology.” Were I a Spaniard today I’d have exactly two words for you. The first of them would start with an “f.”

  29. scott orrell Avatar
    scott orrell

    Just so we’re all clear:
    A) Iraqis recruited to the effort set bombs in Madrid. Because we invaded their country.
    B) Al- Queda didn’t care about Iraq, but now attacks countries solely because they helped overthrow Saddam. Even though it helped their PR and recruiting.
    C) The elections in Spain have nothing to do with the War on Terrorism, even though it is a referendum on the War on Terrorism.
    D) Terrorists prefer conservative opposition so they keep screwing up, but sets bombs to influence elections to the left.

  30. miguel Avatar

    now, Jeff, do you remember when you said that you wanted to walk alongside your allies in Spain. your ally is gone! 90% of the Spanish population opposed Aznar’s decision to join the US on the war on Iraq.
    you should rethink your position as your argument fails do be accepted by people (be it within or outside the US)

  31. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Steven:
    We fought Japan and Germany at the same time and pulled it off.

  32. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    …and Germany&Japan show up again, on cue.
    Brendan O’Neill nails it. I’d urge everyone who feels inclined to berate the Spaniards to read his post. He raises some important questions about the “war on terror” more generally.

  33. michael Avatar

    “But let’s be clear: Being soft on terrorism or on Saddam Hussein would not have prevented the tragedy of 3/11.”
    Removing Saddam from power didn’t prevent 3/11 either….

  34. Hipocrite Avatar
    Hipocrite

    A) Iraqis recruited to the effort set bombs in Madrid. Because we invaded their country.
    No one has alledged this. The falsefing word is “Iraqis.” you are looking for “Some Iraqis and other now-terrorist supporters.”
    B) Al- Queda didn’t care about Iraq, but now attacks countries solely because they helped overthrow Saddam. Even though it helped their PR and recruiting.
    No. Al-Queda attacks countries because they want to implement a global theocracy.
    C) The elections in Spain have nothing to do with the War on Terrorism, even though it is a referendum on the War on Terrorism.
    The elections in Spain have everything to do with the War on Terrorism, and how it was perverted to be the War on Iraq, disregarding much that could be done to stop terrorism.
    D) Terrorists prefer conservative opposition so they keep screwing up, but sets bombs to influence elections to the left.
    No. Terrorists prefer killing people and chaos, along with demonstrations of power, so they blew up bombs and messed with an election. Al-Queda don’t care who runs any given country, unless that person is an Islamic theocrat.

  35. Shark Avatar

    1. You’re not making sense. Libya’s deal was in the works since before Bush came to power — the Iraq war can’t take credit for it. Iran showed signs of cooperating after the neocon agenda began to look like it had bogged down in Iraq. And Pakistan — which has actually shown little solid evidence of getting tough on nuclear proliferation — was supposed to have been an American ally. It’s just absurd to argue that they needed intimidating by the invasion of an unrelated state — an invasion which likely made problems for them with their own radical constituency.
    It’s only absurd because you refuse to open your eyes and see it. Deny, deny, deny. That’s all you do, and it’s more silly than anything.
    But of course, all this is coming from someone who wished this terrorist attack on the French for failing to support Bush. Presumably, your crocodile tears for the Spanish are dry now that they’ve dared to defy the will of Dear Leader, and you’re wishing for more terrorist attack on them too. So really, shark, why should we care what you think
    1) I stand by what I said. I would rather bad things happen to enemies than allies.
    2) My stand on feeling bad for Spain stands, even though I have obvious differences with their reaction
    3)Why should we care what I think? You shouldn’t. I’m just a guy you don’t know posting his thoughts and opinions on a message board instead of working like I should be. But I stand by what I say, If you don’t like it, go f**k yourself. I’m not here to win the approval of some moonbat lefty named Dr. Slack.

  36. Blue Eyed Devil Avatar
    Blue Eyed Devil

    It’s absolutly an apology. AQ will soon be demanding the same from Italy and the UK. “Whatcha gona do when they come for you.”
    Tim

  37. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    It’s only absurd because you refuse to open your eyes and see it.
    Ah, yes, who needs arguments and evidence and stuff? Just “open your eyes.” Riiight.
    I stand by what I said. I would rather bad things happen to enemies than allies.
    And of course, anyone who disagrees with you is an “enemy” — in which case al Qaeda is some kind of divine attack dog sent to punish them. Yes, shark, we already know you think like this. So who’s the “moonbat”?

  38. Joe Peden Avatar
    Joe Peden

    We get attacked specifically over a prolonged recent period and do not invade anyone, even though Osama declared war upon us. Then we really get hammered on 9/11, showing our previous lack of invasion to have been not adequate. So we invade Afganistan, which everyone agrees was warranted as an act of self-defense and prevention.
    According to Liberals, this would have been enough to stem further terrorism, if we had only sent our massive forces there, because, according to Liberals, terrorists are not allowed to cross international borders, and no other terrorists exist or will exist in different nations who want to target us anyway. Somehow Liberals know these things, which to others of us defy common sense, and reality.
    Because here sits Sadaam Hussein, a known terrorist, supporter of terrorism, invader, and violator of international law, who has every reason to want to target the U.S., though Liberals seem unable to imagine why. According to them S.H. is no threat to us, or to anyone else. Again, they somehow just know these things. They know the future, in spite of contrary indicators.
    Instead we invade Iraq, not wanting to rely upon our earlier failure to prevent by not invading in the case of a substantial threat, since it didn’t work. What Liberal would have backed the invasion of Afganistan if it had not attacked yet? Apparently many have still not learned this lesson, now known as the Bush Doctrine, in which the concept of “imminent” threat was abandoned, not asserted, as many Liberals seem to still claim. 9/11 showed that we cannot know an imminent anymore until it has occurred.
    So now Spain is attacked allegedly because terrorists are mad at Spain’s participation in the war in Iraq, which is not against terrorism, according to Al-Qaeda and Liberals. They both just know these things in spite of some obvious inconsistencies.
    The argument is made that Spain’s participation in the war on terror did not work, given the well established Liberal precept that if any method does not work 100%, then it actually does the opposite. This is akin to their also contradictatorilly held precept that if one case of something exists, it is a epidemic, and we must go all out to stop it wherever it might possibly spring up.
    Instead of renewed vigor in the cause against terrorism in Iraq, Spain aquiescesses, a process which we ourselves have again proven to not work just rather recently. Though we wish it did.
    But Liberals doggedly hold onto the wishfulfillment model of thought in which they know the future but ignore the past. Yes, appeasement stops despotism, communism, fascism, terrorism, and all forms of sadomasochism. It is written in the Religion of Liberalism. Let us pray.

  39. billg Avatar

    >>”Can’t one hold the position that in the short term invading Iraq would be inflame Islamic militants and in the long run, an industrious, democratic Iraq would ultimately consign Salafi fundamentalism to the dustbin of history.”
    Of course you can, Michelle. After all, it is the correct and logical position. But, too many people, it seems, are playing wannabe TV pundit. Like those talking and barking heads, they avoid the rigors of logical thought by adjusting their premises to support their conclusions.
    Few, if any, of the opponents of the Iraqi war have offered an alternative way to remove Saddam, By focusing on specific but, ultimately, tangential issues such as WMD or Saddam’s links with terror gorups, they choose to ignore the real question: Would they choose an Iraq with Saddam or an Iraq without Saddam? Do they believe that Saddam-without-WMD or Saddam-without-terror links is acceptable? If so, where do they stand on eliminating totalitarianism and spreading democracy? That’s a question no one living in a democracy can avoid. Modern totalitarian regimes can, effectively, make themselves immune from internal revolt. Only external intervention of some form can remove them. Those who oppose war and support democracy are obliged to propose ways to remove these regimes, or accept their share of responsibility for their continued existence.

  40. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    After all, it is the correct and logical position . . .
    …if you believe the invasion is going to lead to an “industrious, democratic Iraq.” But too many pro-wars are blind to just how poor the indicators for this are, and always were — mainly, I think, because they just can’t bring themselves to admit that the whole thing could have been a mistake. When a Shiite cleric has a virtual veto of the process of writing “interim” constitutions, you are not on the road to a democracy.
    It’s good to see Joe making a token attempt at lucidity. It’s a shame he doesn’t have any of his facts straight or know a thing about who he’s actually arguing against, but it’s a step up from the death threats. (But Joe, you know you’re posting on a site run by an evil “Liberal,” don’t you? Doesn’t that make you feel… dirty?)

  41. scott orrell Avatar
    scott orrell

    hippocrite–
    No one has alledged this. The falsefing word is “Iraqis.” you are looking for “Some Iraqis and other now-terrorist supporters.”
    Of course no one has alleged this. Because it’s stupid. Now imagine if it wasn’t.
    “Some Iraqis and NOW-terrorist allies”, Really?? No one has alleged this either. Because it’s stupid.

  42. Steven Johnson Avatar
    Steven Johnson

    Jeff, yes we did fight Japan and Germany at the same time, but it cost 500,000 lives and we basically had to shut down normal everyday life as we knew it for five years in the US. (Plus we had to drop two atomic bombs to finish it off.) I don’t think most of us are up for that kind of commitment, or even a fraction of it.
    And Dr. Slack, I agree that Bin Laden is Bin Laden and that too much of the WW II analogy gets in the way. I was just trying to explain my position using the analogy that Jeff introduced. Josh Marshall has some good notes today on this idea as well: the question of whether you go after networks or states that support networks. The WWII analogy is mostly about states, while today’s situation is much more about networks.

  43. shark Avatar

    And of course, anyone who disagrees with you is an “enemy” — in which case al Qaeda is some kind of divine attack dog sent to punish them.
    Um…..next time, can you actually show me where I said this? If you want me to give you my definition of what an enemy is, ask. Nicely. Ask, and I’ll also give you my opinion of Al-Qaeda. Don’t think you can speak for me, or guess my motives, because you can’t, so I ask you not to even bother trying. Try not to make stuff up next time, I see you do it a lot here though. Par for the course from the lefty moonbats…
    Don’t address me unless you have something to say that isn’t made up

  44. billg Avatar

    Doctor Slack, one year ago Saddam was still running Iraq, still threatening his neighbors and still jailing and killing his own people, and still avoiding justice for his crimes. Today, Iraqis are arguing and debating about how to establish a democracy.
    Would you possibily argue that, somehow, that does not represent an improvement?
    Or, are you so lacking in confidence in the Iraqi people, so condescendingly sure that they are incapable of freely governing themselves, that you prefer Iraq as it was under Saddam?
    It took the U.S. more than a decade after 1776 to create and approve a workable constitution. Why do you hold the Iraqis to a different timetable? Why do you seem so sure they will fail?

  45. Trump Avatar

    LMFAO at Dr. Slack.
    Hey dude, you have nothing to say but the standard leftist spew, and now you’re acting like an internet tough guy trying to beat up people in a chat room???!?
    ROTFLMFAO
    Well, I guess you have a need to dominate the chatroom, since the left is out of power and is going to stay that way.
    Go watch the West Wing and dream of your halcyon days little man…

  46. Jurgen Avatar

    So, can someone please remind me how, exactly, are blogs supposed to re-invigorate a public sphere of discourse? All this rambling is just partisan bickering, posturing, and punditry. Worthless drivel…

  47. Swopa Avatar

    Can’t one hold the position that in the short term invading Iraq would be inflame Islamic militants and in the long run, an industrious, democratic Iraq would ultimately consign Salafi fundamentalism to the dustbin of history.
    Like billg, I’d say of course you can — but then it becomes very important how you go into Iraq to minimize the short-term damage while maximizing the chances of long-term gain.
    That’s why many people were pushing for a worldwide coalition with a UN mandate, and more than twice as many troops. The former would have muffled Al Qaeda’s ability to claim U.S. imperialism, and the latter would have provided better postwar security, faster rebuilding of essential services, and a smoother, more trusted transition to democracy.
    Unfortunately, the war boosters couldn’t comprehend this, so now we’ve maximized the short-term damage and minimized the prospect of long-term gains. It’s a shame.

  48. HH Avatar

    The background of Islamist terror in France is well-documented… France has been against taking Saddam out at least since ’98. Somehow I don’t think terrorists have scrapped all plans for France since then… In fact, I know they haven’t because just after Sep. 11 there were plans reported to attack them, just for starters.

  49. CharlesWT Avatar
    CharlesWT

    “Steven’s point is that invading Iraq made that pitch (even though it’s wrong) a lot easier to sell — in effect, creating more terrorists.”
    This may be true in the short term. But, in the long term, nudging Iraq and other M.E. countries towards democracy destroys terrorist habitat. Hopefully, in time, they will become an near extinct species. This is called draining the swamp.

  50. HH Avatar

    The “ignore them and maybe they’ll go away” or “give up and maybe they’ll go away” approach has a long history on the left.

  51. michael Avatar

    The “ignore them and maybe they’ll go away” or “give up and maybe they’ll go away” approach has a long history on the left.

    Such as?? (C’mon people, let’s provide some evidence to these sweeping generalizations…)

  52. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    one year ago Saddam was still running Iraq,
    Correct so far.
    still threatening his neighbors
    Wrong. Most of his neighbours, including Israel, said bluntly and repeatedly that Saddam was contained and not a threat to them.
    and still jailing and killing his own people,
    Correct — but then, the occupation forces have also found they have to jail and kill Iraqis, haven’t they? To the tune of between eight and ten thousand known civilian dead and some tens of thousands arbitrarily arrested, detained and jailed since the invasion. You can insulate yourself from this, but Iraqis can’t, and many of them are speaking out, and heavens to Betsy, they dare to be unenthusiastic. You need something more substantial to offer them than stock talking-points and evasiveness.
    Today, Iraqis are arguing and debating about how to establish a democracy.
    First things first, they’re mostly arguing and debating about how to keep the current situation from deteriorating into a civil war. Why blind yourself to that urgent reality? Doesn’t it tell you anything that most Iraqis were completely disinterested in the IGC’s “constitution” kabuki theatre?
    Would you possibily argue that, somehow, that does not represent an improvement?
    Actually, for all that the occupation has been disastrously mismanaged thus far, I’d say in the short term it probably does represent an improvement over Saddam… but that argument is on damned thin ice, thinner than I think you begin to realize, and getting thinner all the time. Moreover, I’m a lot less sanguine about its ultimate result being an improvement (by the time we know for sure, of course, Alfred E. Bush will have tried to wash his hands of the whole thing — “what, me worry?”).
    Or, are you so lacking in confidence in the Iraqi people
    Hah. Don’t talk to me about “confidence in the Iraqi people” when you’re assuming the only alternative to an eternity of Saddam and Sons was foreign invasion.
    It took the U.S. more than a decade after 1776 to create and approve a workable constitution. Why do you hold the Iraqis to a different timetable?
    Guess what? Hard as it may be to believe, Iraq is not the US in 1776. It’s under foreign occupation, one of the key political players on the ground is a theocrat and the others involved in drafting its “interim” constitution are puppets with zero legtimacy among the populace. It’s a fool who pretends that recognizing these obvious facts is a disservice to Iraqis.

  53. billg Avatar

    SWopa, more troops in Iraq would be a benefit, but I’ve never had enough confidence in the UN to believe the U.S. should alter policy to keep it happy. I consider the UN as part of the problem, not part of the solution. A UN “mandate” is meaningless and carries no moral or ethical weight. In fact, most who played the UN card prior to the war did so hoping to forestall Saddam’s removal and to maintain the status quo. The focus at the UN was on WMD, not on Saddam, and the Bush Adminstration erred by not countering that perception.

  54. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Josh Marshall has some good notes today on this idea as well: the question of whether you go after networks or states that support networks.
    Yeah, just has a look over at TPM. That is a much better way to frame the issue, and I think it gets at the root of my problem with the WWII analogies.

  55. Mike G Avatar

    More proof that the brainy nuanced lib/left/Dem side can’t see more than one move ahead, while Bush the dummy chimp is playing three-dimensional chess and has his endgame all planned out.
    The other day I amazed a 20-something acquaintance by saying I was all for evil Bush’s evil war of freedom, and when he finished making hex signs and stringing garlic around his neck, I explained why. I was six when the Islamicists in the Middle East got their asses kicked by Israel once, 12 when they did it again. 11 when they killed a bunch of Olympic athletes, 19 when they kept American hostages for a year, 22 when they blew up a bunch of Marines in their barracks, 23 when the Achille Lauro was hijacked, 27 when Lockerbie happened, 28 when they announced a new literary prize and Salman Rushdie was the first winner, 32 when the WTC was blown up once, 39 when it was blown up a second time for good. And I couldn’t even begin to tell you how many presidential peace processes and promises of a new day in the Middle East I’ve seen. And in all that time the sinkhole that is the Islamic Middle East has just gotten worse and worse, and NOTHING has ever worked.
    So FUCK the status quo in the Middle East. It has lasted my whole life and it has never gotten even the littlest bit better, in fact quite the opposite. Time to blast it away and try something else. That’s why I, a Democrat who generally despises the idea of Bushes as presidents, cannot vote for anybody who blah-blahs about taking it back to the Useless Nations and in any way returning us to the state of affairs before 9-11. Bush, lamentable though he is so many ways Andrew Sullivan has been happy to enunciate, has shown the only creativity and daring, the only refusal to get rolled, the only pair of balls I’ve seen on the Middle East issue in my whole life. And what do you know, the evil warmonger has saved and improved more Arab lives in five minutes than all the blatherers in 40 years. Isn’t history funny sometimes.

  56. billg Avatar

    >>”…you’re assuming the only alternative to an eternity of Saddam and Sons was foreign invasion.
    I’ve argued, Slack, that competent and successful totalitarian regimes like Saddam’s cannot be removed by internal revolt. That means only external intervention of some kind can remove them. That doesn’t necessarily mean invasion, but it means doing something. What would you do?

  57. Shark Avatar

    Switching the subject for a minute, when does Kerry the liar reveal which foreign leaders endorsed him? (Besides Chirac, Arafat, Kim Jong Il and the Iran Mullahs- I’m sure Kerry won’t mention those supporters)
    After what happened in Spain, we can be sure to see anmother attack carried out here to tip the elections in Kerry’s favor. I guess that means Al Qaeda is now a political action group aligned with Kerry- TerrorPAC maybe we should call them?

  58. hunter Avatar

    Shark: Really, what is the point of using language like “Kerry the liar.” Is this supposed to be persuasive to those who might support him? Or simply meant to insult? Either way, it shows you lack any tact, nuance, or other tools to engage in a meaningful public debate.

  59. shark Avatar

    Shark: Really, what is the point of using language like “Kerry the liar.” Is this supposed to be persuasive to those who might support him? Or simply meant to insult? Either way, it shows you lack any tact, nuance, or other tools to engage in a meaningful public debate.
    1) Kerry IS a liar. He said he met with leaders he did not. People certainly don’t have a problem yelling that Bush is a liar, even w/o evidence. Kerry was caught in a lie, why should I curry your favor by glossing over that?
    2) I lack tact and nuance? HAHA, so what? We can have a meaningful public debate w/o all that BS we call “nuance” In other words, you care more about how I say it, not what I say. Very sad.
    3) Would you please chasitze the “BUSHITLER, BUSHNAZI, HALLIBURTON PLASTIC TURKEY BUSH LIED”
    crowd now for lack of tact and nuance? Unless you do, I don’t think you have the intellectual honesty to engage in public debate.

  60. onecent Avatar

    Bravo, Mike G.
    That’s one honest piece of writing.

  61. KMK Avatar

    Brilliant Mike, just brilliant. That’s the most honest comment I’ve read all day.

  62. Reid Avatar

    Doesn’t it tell you anything that most Iraqis were completely disinterested in the IGC’s “constitution” kabuki theatre?
    Slacker, you are wrong. If you had been keeping up with the Iraqi English language websites, you would know that the Iraqis were ecstatic over the adoption of the interim constitution. One Iraqi blogger in particular proclaimed the “United States of Iraq” in large type bold lettering.
    You condescending, smug bastard.

  63. michael Avatar

    Reid: how do you know that was an actual Iraqi citizen?

  64. Hipocrite Avatar
    Hipocrite

    Reid, you are wrong. If you had been keeping up with the Iraqi English language websites, you would know that the Iraqis are more worried about being shot or kidnapped than they are about the farce that is the “Constitution.” One Iraqi blogger in particular proclaimed that her cousin once rememved was abducted and held for ransom!
    You condescending, smug bastard.

  65. Buffalo Bill Avatar
    Buffalo Bill

    Jeff,
    Everything you wrote after the quote screams “Vote For Bush!” Yes, I’m partisan, but Kerry so far has said nothing about terror other than a desire to return to the days of pre-September 11, in regard to actions proposed.

  66. Fernando Avatar
    Fernando

    DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST!
    Yeah let’s have it! The will of the people in Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco…
    I’d give it 25 milliseconds before the US tries to squelch the Islamic regimes that would be usered in to replace the corrupt dictatorships.
    Simply put, the LAST country that wants democracy in the Middle East is the US. The very last.

  67. Franky Avatar

    Unfortunately, US foreign policy in the past has been exactly what Fernando said, hence much of the anger in the middle east towards the US. Once again there’s the conflict between the ideals of the US (arguably the greatest in the world) and the reality of what at times has been a grubby foreign policy.
    I mean seriously what are we going to do if by the wave of a fairy’s wand tomorrow free elections were held across the region and fundamentalists were voted in without exception? Begin talking about “responsiuble democracy” (i.e. voting in someone we like)? Democracy is like your virginity: you either have it or you don’t

  68. onecent Avatar

    I mean seriously what are we going to do if by the wave of a fairy’s wand tomorrow free elections were held across the region and fundamentalists were voted in without exception?
    Then, the people have spoken in a free election and there is nothing we can do. Let’s see what free elections in Iraq bring. My bet is that they aren’t going to vote in a theocracy. The mess in Iran isn’t missed on them.

  69. billg Avatar

    Fernando:
    A country can be both democratic and populated with followers of Islam, but it cannot be both democratic and governed by people who believe their religion reveals the “Truth” to them. One must choose between faith in the people and faith in “revealed truth”, One choice leads to democracy, the other to fundamentalist theocracy, i.e., priestly dictatorship.
    These dictatorships by priests can occur within any religion; Islam is no more prone to it than any other faith. No matter, dictatorships by priests stand in the way of human freedom and growth, and must be opposed and eliminated.
    MikeG:
    Excellent heartfelt post! I’m a lifelong Democrat, too, who is beginning to feel abandoned by the party. I don’t support Bush’s domestic agenda, but he’s right about fighting terrorism. if not perfect in executing that fight. Democrats need to get a foreign policy and to start acting as if they aren’t embarrassed to be Americans. Republicans, on the other hand, need to stop behaving as if they’re embarrassed to be seen with anyone who makes less than $100k per annum.

  70. sappy Avatar

    I have a new auditor, the books are boring, so we occasionally digress into politics. He’s a staunch Republican who wants the troops out of Iraq and will absolutely not be voting for Bush this time around. He was a bit surprised at my support of the Greater Middle East Initiative given that I have been a registered Democratic for the past 25 years.
    Bush is in trouble with his own constituency. The lack of WMD is a problem. What Spain so clearly demonstrated was the resilience of the Peace Now/Bush Lied/People Died crowd.
    If you get a chance, drop by Bob Zangas’ Journey in Iraq. I genuinely believe this man died in pursuit of a just cause.

  71. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    MikeG:
    Bush, lamentable though he is so many ways Andrew Sullivan has been happy to enunciate, has shown the only creativity and daring, the only refusal to get rolled, the only pair of balls I’ve seen on the Middle East issue in my whole life.
    Yeah, like that time Sharon stormed into the Gaza Strip and Bush told him to leave “without delay,” and then he didn’t, and then Bush told him again, and then he didn’t, and then Bush said he was a “man of peace.” I remember thinking, “wow, objectionable though he is, that man has balls.”
    Sharon, that is. Not Bush.
    And then there was that time when after “improving the lives of the Arabs,” Bush found himself with no exit strategy, trying ineptly to govern a country that looked set to explode, and going begging for help to the very “Useless Nations” he and his goons had spent so much time deriding, trying to bully and intimidate and render irrelevant. I remember thinking, “wow, that man has gall.”
    Three-dimensional chess? Got his endgame all planned out? Who the hell are you kidding?
    Don’t get me wrong, Mike. I have no sympathy for the “status quo” in the Middle East; it’s the tragic legacy of very bad decisions made almost a century ago. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be made worse, and that doesn’t mean I’m about to endorse any lunatic plan to “sweep aside” the old order and replace it with something “new” that comes down the pike. Iraq is unlikely to be a glorious new chapter in the future of a democratized Middle East — it’s more likely to become yet another running foreign policy sore, just like Saddam and Saudia Arabia were before it. That is, in fact, already happening.
    I’d absolutely welcome someone who’s willing to take bold steps to actually improve the Middle East situation, who showed “balls” and a “refusal to be rolled.” Who, for instance, stopped tip-toeing around the Israel-Palestine issue and starting seriously reassessing America’s relationship to that conflict. But Bush has no apparent vision and no discernible “balls;” he just has an ironclad sense of entitlement, a hand-me-down ideology and a sense of political expediency.
    It’s too bad, really, because he sometimes says interesting things when he’s pretending to have vision. It’s tantalizing to think about what the “roadmap to peace” would have looked like if it hadn’t been an afterthought drafted by partisan hacks, or what the “Greater Middle East Initiative” might have looked like if it hadn’t been just more expedient face-saving vaporware. But I don’t believe Bush now. Very few people do. About anything. He’s a liability.
    I’ve argued, Slack, that competent and successful totalitarian regimes like Saddam’s cannot be removed by internal revolt.
    I’ve heard Saddam’s regime described any number of ways, but “competent” and “successful” aren’t among them. Saddam’s regime came within an ace of toppling in 1991, as you no doubt know — it was saved only by Bush the Elder. (Terrible? A mistake? In a sense, yes… except Bush did it because he had a justifiable fear of civil war in Iraq or chaos stemming from a US attempt to occupy it. And that’s fully understandable.)
    That means only external intervention of some kind can remove them. That doesn’t necessarily mean invasion, but it means doing something.
    Well, at last we agree. It does indeed mean doing something. If you’ve progressed beyond the point where the only definition of “doing something” you’ll accept is “invasion,” that’s very refreshing. That means you can start looking into the many foreign policy alternatives that were put forward by opponents of Bush’s agenda, starting with this excellent paper, some of whose recommendations are still of serious interest today. Enjoy.

  72. Mike G Avatar

    >Don’t get me wrong, Mike.
    Oh, I think there’s no danger of that. You’re absolutely against the status quo, and even more against doing anything about it.
    I think I have you exactly right, Doctor Slack.

  73. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    You’re absolutely against the status quo, and even more against doing anything about it.
    If knocking down strawmen helps you sleep at night, that’s your lookout. If you develop some intellectual honesty in the meantime, though, you can click the link I provided “billg” for some examples of what I’d favour doing about it.

  74. Mike G Avatar

    Why I did not engage you at greater length, Dr. Slack:
    “like that time Sharon stormed into the Gaza Strip”
    Anyone who mention Sharon’s hideous crimes (of violating political niceties) and never gets around to mentioning Arafat the Don Corleone of Palestinian terrorism is already five points behind in the honesty department. If nothing else, Bush has shown balls simply by being the first president to refuse to be lied to any more by that terrorist kleptocrat and author of the misery of his people.
    “there was that time when after “improving the lives of the Arabs,” Bush found himself with no exit strategy”
    Why is the goal of all foreign policy to “exit”? Is the purpose of policing to park the car?
    The very fact that you frame the issue that way shows your thinking is stuck in the pre-Bush past, just like John Kerry’s. Oh, and since you put “improving the lives of the Arabs” in cheaply cynical quotes indicating you believe that to be untrue, I assume you will have no problem affixing your signature to the following statement:
    I BELIEVE THAT THE IRAQI PEOPLE WERE BETTER OFF WITH SADDAM IN POWER, THE TORTURE AND RAPE ROOMS IN OPERATION, AND THE STARVATION-INDUCING SANCTIONS IN FULL FORCE. SIGNED, DOCTOR SLACK.
    “I have no sympathy for the “status quo” in the Middle East; it’s the tragic legacy of very bad decisions made almost a century ago.”
    Hmm. What could be missing from that? Oh, I know– any sense that Middle Easterners have responsibility for their own actions, and are to blame for a century of their own bad decisions, bad leaders, insane religious hatred. I think I heard a phrase for that once… let’s see, it was said by President Bush as a matter of fact: “the soft bigotry of low expectations.”
    “I’d absolutely welcome someone who’s willing to take bold steps to actually improve the Middle East situation”
    Well, you go wait at the edge of town with the key to the city then, while the rest of us deal in the real world. Honestly, is that an argument? I guess it counts as one on your side, since I get it all the time– “we should have tried real sanctions!” a friend of mine loves to say, never defining what more impressive method of inducing starvation while allowing Saddam to skim the till he had in mind. There’s always something better in your head than what the best and brightest in Washington have thought of, isn’t there? But you just can’t find the words for it…
    “Who, for instance, stopped tip-toeing around the Israel-Palestine issue and starting seriously reassessing America’s relationship to that conflict.”
    Oh dear, you found the words. I see. If we’d just recognize it was all Israel and America’s fault, and wrote Arafat an even bigger check (none of which of course would ever go to nasty old suicide bombers or any of that), peace would break out like hives all over the region. Uh huh. Been there, done that, watched another pizza parlor get blown up by a pregnant woman with nails in her brassiere.
    “I’ve heard Saddam’s regime described any number of ways, but “competent” and “successful” aren’t among them.”
    Well, go back in time, and hold up a protest sign in Firdus Square, and you can personally experience the one thing they were competent and successful at (and which the other guy obviously meant, as you know perfectly well).
    “That means you can start looking into the many foreign policy alternatives that were put forward by opponents of Bush’s agenda”
    Show of hands on how many think Saddam would be firmly in power this very day under any of those alternatives. But then, that wasn’t your objective, was it, Doctor?
    “Bush [Sr.] did it because he had a justifiable fear of civil war in Iraq or chaos stemming from a US attempt to occupy it. And that’s fully understandable.”
    At last we come to the status quo you do believe in. You believe in propping up strong men to maintain order, over the chaos that may come from efforts to spread democracy. It’s now official; right and left have completely changed sides.

  75. blah Avatar

    Don’t want to piss off Hitler. Don’t want to piss of bin Laden. Same difference.
    Um, no. Unless you’re facile.
    you can’t have your “Iraq is not connected to terrorism” cake and eat it too.
    Man of straw.
    Dear God, is this really so hard to understand? Iraq only became part of the terrorist game-plan the moment President Daddy-Avenger decided to go to war there.
    When you have a viral infection, do you take antibiotics? Only if you’re really really stupid. Bush chose the antibiotic strategy, not only failing to get rid of the virus, but making the immune system more susceptible both to viruses and bacterial infections.

  76. Ric Locke Avatar
    Ric Locke

    It’s also worth noting that the other peoples of the Middle East are calling the antiwar Left a bunch of f*ing liars.
    Iran — just as predicted! — is starting to explode against the Mad Mullahs, and the people involve specifically state that the inspiration for it was knowledge that such regimes could be toppled. Yes, I know, spin spin spin; it would have happened without Iraq, it’s all just people getting fed up. Trouble is, the Iranis themselves are saying you’re a liar, and they’re the ones doing the dying.
    Meanwhile in Syria, more children under ten years old have been killed in an uprising against Bashad and Syrian Ba’ath than marched in the “anti war demonstration” staged and featured by Democratic News Network all day today. They, too, are citing Iraq as their inspiration — and asking please for the use of a few American helicopters for a little while.
    Spin all you want, but at the end it comes down: if Iraq means nothing to al Qaeda but a recruiting opportunity, why are they so anxious to get the U.S. out? Why do they say otherwise themselves?
    The real problem is the lefties’ attention span. Iraq is a gamble, yes, but even if we win the payoff is long term. A group that can’t even wait a full news cycle to drag in the Federal Judiciary to trump a debate they were virtually certain to win has no way of figuring out any strategy that extends beyond their next meal.
    Regards,
    Ric

  77. Mike G Avatar

    Blah, try again without using the phrase “President Daddy-Avenger,” which is pretty much like wearing “Don’t listen to me” sign in a place like this.

  78. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Ah, the Avalanche of Self-Righteousness approach. Always entertaining! (Cue sputtering: “Entertaining?! How dare you be so cynical, you [yadda yadda yadda]”)
    Anyone who mention Sharon’s hideous crimes…
    …is obligated to carefully condemn Arafat, using all the right epithets, within a sentence or be branded an Evil Anti-Semite. I know, I know. But I’m not much interested in that kind of ritualistic faux “even-handedness,” nor am I the slightest bit impressed by the self-proclaimed “honesty” and moral rectitude of those who endorse and try to impose it on discussion. Why? Because they typically reveal their own moral blindness in pretty short order:
    (of violating political niceties)
    That’s right, you heard it here first, folks. Sharon is guilty of nothing more than “violating political niceties.” Think that cute little line would pass the laugh test in a conversation in Tel Aviv?
    (I share Edward Said’s opinion of Arafat, incidentally, which if anything is harsher than Bush’s. That doesn’t equate to being impressed with Bush’s handling of the Israel-Palestine situation, though. Understand the difference?)
    Why is the goal of all foreign policy to “exit”?
    1. The Cheeky Answer: Why don’t you ask Bush, who seems desperate to dissociate himself from “occupation” by June 30th? Or was that not what you had in mind when you were talking up his “creativity” and “daring”?
    2. The More Serious Answer: There are real questions about the current vogue of the term “exit strategy,” on loan from the business world and in vogue since Somalia. Some have charged that it exemplifies a mentality built around interventions on the cheap, and certainly that’s what it can come to signify. But that mentality can exist independent of interest in “exit strategies,” as Bush has shown us so compellingly in Afghanistan. (The warlords! The opium! The conflict! Oh my!)
    On Iraq, however, it’s pretty clear why America — especially American troops — need an “exit strategy”: namely, pretty much every part of the Iraqi political spectrum in virtually every region of the country has vigorously condemned the idea of a long occupation. But they don’t matter, right? Must be Baathist remnants.
    Oh, and since you put “improving the lives of the Arabs” in cheaply cynical quotes indicating you believe that to be untrue
    Ahhh, time for the old “you’re objectively pro-Saddam!” ploy. Never get tired of that one. I’ve talked enough about what I believe up the thread that it should be fairly clear (and that you should have known what a bullsh*t rhetorical move this was for you), so I’ll just quote some of those Iraqis whose lives were “improved”:
    Amir Nasef Toma al-Sayegh: In the management of the country they have conquered the Americans have failed in every way. For any Iraqi who tries to present a noble project to help his own people they try to find a million ways to say no . . . Either they are not very clever or they are very clever but sly and have no intention of doing any good.
    Mudar Niyal: Iraq is very changed – for the worse. It is dangerous. You can’t relax. I’ll go back to Dubai in a month. I have a life there. I can’t live here. I couldn’t do anything in Iraq. Maybe you can do anything you want now, but you don’t feel good because you don’t have security. This is not my life.
    Asmaa Ubeid: Does just the ability to watch satellite TV now mean freedom for Iraqis? Iraqi citizens get killed on the streets by the Americans, and their families cannot claim any rights because that person is considered a terrorist at once. . . I do not forget that there were many bad things about the old regime and that it committed many crimes. But these people came in the name of changing things. So far they have not proved they are any better than Saddam Hussein.
    Pretty extreme sentiments, hmmm? Linked here, and that’s just a taste. If anything, I feel like I’m flying in the face of the evidence by even giving the humanitarian argument for the Iraq war some minimal benefit of the doubt.
    Now let’s turn around your cheap little rhetorical game, Mike, and see if you’ll sign on to the following statement:
    I BELIEVE THAT THE IRAQI PEOPLE HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE INEPTITUDE OF THE OCCUPATION, BECAUSE SADDAM WAS THE ULTIMATE EVIL AND WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS AND ANYONE WHO SAYS DIFFERENT IS A BAATHIST SYMPATHIZER. SIGNED, MIKE G.
    What do you say?
    Hmm. What could be missing from that? Oh, I know– any sense that Middle Easterners have responsibility for their own actions, and are to blame for a century of their own bad decisions, bad leaders, insane religious hatred.
    Do you really think it’s impressive to pretend that one sentence is a policy paper or a comprehensive overview of Middle East history? Come now, you’re obviously brighter than this.
    Well, you go wait at the edge of town with the key to the city then, while the rest of us deal in the real world.
    Come on, you’re just playing dumb now. I hope. Hint: when you hold up Bush as a paragon of boldness, “creativity” and “daring” in solving problems in the Middle East, you should be prepared for other people to have criteria for the use of those terms.
    “we should have tried real sanctions!” a friend of mine loves to say, never defining what more impressive method of inducing starvation while allowing Saddam to skim the till he had in mind.
    Could be your problem is that you’re so wrapped up in projecting strawman arguments onto your opponents that you’ve come to believe your own nonsense. See, plenty of people are conversant with the distinction between military sanctions (the kind that were effective in disarming Saddam) and economic sanctions (the kind that were effective in starving Iraqis). Many of us supported the first and opposed the second. I’m not sure if your friend is among them… maybe you should ask after you’ve lost that chip on your shoulder.
    If we’d just recognize it was all Israel and America’s fault
    That phrase announces you’re not willing to look at the issue honestly, so I’ll cut you off there.
    Well, go back in time, and hold up a protest sign in Firdus Square, and you can personally experience [blah blah]
    The point was that no totalitarian regime is invincible — most emphatically including Saddam’s, which came close once to falling to internal insurrection. (This goes back to an earlier discussion Bill and I had when he claimed that nothing short of an invasion could get rid of a “modern totalitarianism.”)
    Show of hands on how many think Saddam would be firmly in power this very day under any of those alternatives.
    Show of hands on how many of those same people thought for certain sure that Saddam had those WMDs. Can you say “credibility gap,” Mike? I thought you could.
    At last we come to the status quo you do believe in.
    Because of course, if I say I understand a decision, that must mean I endorse it. Thanks for that little demonstration of your “honesty,” Mike. I think I have you exactly right.

  79. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Iran — just as predicted! — is starting to explode against the Mad Mullahs, and the people involve specifically state that the inspiration for it was knowledge that such regimes could be toppled.
    Cite, please.
    I mean, Iranians are justly known as the most pro-American people in the Middle East, but that doesn’t mean they’re interested in Iraq-style “regime change,” and most of what I’ve seen from the student democracy movement doesn’t mention Iraq — seeming instead to focus on securing American rhetorical support for their cause and warning Americans away from normal relations with the mullahs.

  80. Mike G Avatar

    >I share Edward Said’s opinion of Arafat, incidentally
    And yet you chose not to share it. Revealing.
    I would not accuse you of anti-Semitism based on what you said here. But you stand convicted of multiple counts of blaming Israel and America while giving the Palestinians a total, blame-free pass. Which I would not say is 180 degrees backwards… but it’s gettin’ there.
    >There are real questions about the current vogue of the term “exit strategy,”
    And yet you chose not to ask them until pushed. Fine, when the Democrats again become the party of liberal humanitarian ideals instead of the party of extreme head-in-the-sand isolationism and obsession with trivia like drug benefits for seniors, I will rejoin them and help them attempt to counter the longtime and endemic Republican tendency toward moderate isolationism. Until then, they’re living in la-la land and the Bushies at least have a foot in the hard choices of the real world.
    “I’ll just quote some of those Iraqis whose lives were “improved”:”
    Go back and look at your quotes. Every single one longs for the law and order of the Saddam days, nothing more. You have revealed your ideals right there. Do you doubt for a second that similar comments could be found from Germans in 1946? I trust you are at least intellectually consistent enough then to have never complained about the Patriot Act, how the New York or LA cops keep order, etc.
    “Now let’s turn around your cheap little rhetorical game, Mike, and see if you’ll sign on to the following statement:
    I BELIEVE THAT THE IRAQI PEOPLE HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE INEPTITUDE OF THE OCCUPATION, BECAUSE SADDAM WAS THE ULTIMATE EVIL AND WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS AND ANYONE WHO SAYS DIFFERENT IS A BAATHIST SYMPATHIZER. SIGNED, MIKE G.
    What do you say?”
    Of course I would not sign on to such a statement. Because this war was fought to GIVE the Iraqis the right to bitch like crazy about how fucked up things are. Welcome to democracy, guys.
    It is really sad that the side I once belonged to can think of nothing better to do than carp at democracy being born and wish for its failure. But then I guess that demonstrates that it was never the side I was on anyway.

  81. billg Avatar

    You know, Slack, you might actually make a start on being taken seriously here if you’d stop insulting the people you’re supposed to be trying to convince.
    You might also try responding to the real issues addressed by others, rather than rolling out the usual mix of unproven assertions, sloganeering, and disputatious arguments about insignificant details.
    And, thank you for bringing up the 1991 Gulf War. It only bolster my belief that effective modern totalitarian states cannot be brought down by internal revolt. If, and it’s a big if, Saddam was teetering on the brink of collapse in ’91, it was only as a result of outside invasion. He certainly managed to handily put down the putative revolts that followed our departure. And, then managed to survive for 13 more years. Since the only thing that matters to people like Saddam is survival, I’d say his career goes a long way to proving my belief.

  82. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    And yet you chose not to share it. Revealing.
    …of the fact that I was talking about someone else. But you just keep on trying to push that insinuation.
    you stand convicted of multiple counts of blaming Israel and America while giving the Palestinians a total, blame-free pass
    You stand convicted of multiple counts of trying to invent a strawman argument for your opponent under the guise of demanding “even-handedness.”
    Go back and look at your quotes. Every single one longs for the law and order of the Saddam days, nothing more.
    Maybe that should tell you, who can take law and order for granted, something about what living without it is like. Maybe you owe the opinion of those people, who actually lived under Saddam, a modicum of respect.
    You know. Just a thought.
    Do you doubt for a second that similar comments could be found from Germans in 1946?
    Yes, actually, I do. The attempts to draw analogies between 2004 Iraq and 1945 Germany are enitrely spurious — remember Condi Rice trying to pretend that Werwolf was the equivalent of the Sunni insurgency? If not, feel free to reminisce. Yet another strike against the WWII analogy.
    Because this war was fought to GIVE the Iraqis the right to bitch like crazy about how fucked up things are.
    But, apparently, not the right to be taken seriously or to reassess how and why that war was carried out, or Bush’s policies related thereto? The funny thing is, I have the feeling you’ll be trying to accuse me of condescending to the Iraqi people given enough time.
    It is really sad that the side I once belonged to can think of nothing better to do than carp at democracy being born and wish for its failure
    What’s sad is that you’re still arguing against strawmen and pretending to yourself that this refutes your opponents. I look forward to signs of “democracy being born” in Iraq — I haven’t seen them yet, and I don’t feel the need to pander to your desire to see them. So, really, grow the hell up.

  83. Mike G Avatar

    The same friend who talks about “real sanctions” squeaks “straw man! straw man!” whenever he can’t think of anything better to say. (I, on the other hand, magisterially let statements like “But, apparently, not the right to be taken seriously or to reassess how and why that war was carried out, or Bush’s policies related thereto?” pass by as the obviously false inanities they are. Of course, I take the Iraqi man in the street every bit as seriously as I take the American man in the street, or the American caller to a talk radio show…)
    In conclusion, perhaps you should look at Jeff’s new item “Even the BBC” before you say any more foolish things about what the Iraqi people think about all this.

  84. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    You know, Slack, you might actually make a start on being taken seriously here if you’d stop insulting the people you’re supposed to be trying to convince.
    I’ll let my arguments speak for themselves. Those who are informed can judge their worth honestly. Those who come here for insular war bloc circle jerks can bray and hurl insults and traffick in insinuations — but I won’t feel obligated to give them sweetness and light in return. They can get used to it, or not. All the same to me.
    You might also try responding to the real issues addressed by others
    Vague, evasive mush. Be specific about where you’re claiming I’ve failed to respond to the issues or support my assertions, or you’re wasting both our time.
    If, and it’s a big if, Saddam was teetering on the brink of collapse in ’91, it was only as a result of outside invasion.
    Actually, it was as a result of the failure of his invasion. And why do you think it’s such a big “if”? I thought the Shiite revolt of ’91 was pretty widely discussed and acknowledged as just such a moment — indeed, that was supposed to be part of the case for wae IIRC. Wasn’t it?
    He certainly managed to handily put down the putative revolts that followed our departure.
    Well, if the Shiites are to be believed, he didn’t manage to put them down on his own; the outcome was what it was specifically because there were still American troops in the region. After Bush called for the revolts — and this is the real strike against him — he actively helped to disarm the rebels. (At least, so the Shiites have repeatedly charged.)
    And, then managed to survive for 13 more years.
    Thanks in large part, many policy analysts charged, to unnecessary economic sanctions which artificially rendered the populace dependent on Baathist food rations. Would he have lasted without that factor? Who knows? I have my doubts.

  85. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    The same friend who talks about “real sanctions” squeaks “straw man! straw man!” whenever he can’t think of anything better to say.
    Or, maybe, whenever you try to invent positions for him, as you’ve attempted to do so copiously on this thread? Oh, but you couldn’t possibly be doing that. No, he must simply be mired in that weak-kneed “left” you left behind. Poor benighted soul.
    perhaps you should look at Jeff’s new item “Even the BBC” before you say any more foolish things about what the Iraqi people think about all this.
    The poll which has barely half of Iraqis rating things better now than before the war? The poll which has less than half of them regarding the invasion as justified, and close to half feeling the invasion “humiliated Iraq”? That one? Sure, I’ll look at it.

  86. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Dr. Slack:
    T
    o
    o
    l
    o
    n
    g
    Didn’t read.
    Oh — and use all caps more often. In fact, I think you should use all caps all the time. That makes your comments more noticeable and people will read them. Or something.

  87. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Didn’t read.
    Yeah, the length of your attention span isn’t news to me.
    Oh — and use all caps more often.
    Nor is this comment on your reading comprehension.

  88. vic Avatar

    Andrea…..hillarious
    Slack……pathetic

  89. Yehudit Avatar

    Mike G, you need your own blog. You are too articulate and reasonable to stay cooped up in these comment threads.
    An incisive fisk of Dr. Slack always makes my day.

  90. Mike G Avatar

    Thanks, Yehudit, but I can only think of what to write when deep in someone else’s comment thread…

  91. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    An incisive fisk of Dr. Slack always makes my day.
    Ahh, there’s the Yehudit I know. Looks like your standards for “incisiveness” match Mike’s for “creativity and daring.” Enjoy one another.

  92. Joe Peden Avatar
    Joe Peden

    Slack, as you have said nothing, McCelland calls you a “freeper”. Is this true?

  93. Joe Peden Avatar
    Joe Peden

    I guess we could have a Mc Cell Land, but you would not be invited, unless you prove you have some brain cells. On the other hand, you might do good just “walking on”. Whether you are scholarshipped or a walk on, or a result of Affirmative Action, Let’s see what you got. I have some intimations that you might have something, from what you have said. So let’s see.

  94. ronnie schreiber Avatar

    The poll which has barely half of Iraqis rating things better now than before the war?
    The use of the phrase “barely half” makes me wonder.
    I wonder if the person who posted this feels that Al Gore really won the 2000 election or, alternatively expressed concern that Bill Clinton had a plurality, not a majority.
    I guess it’s a question of which person’s livestock has a sharp stick poking in its side.
    OT: With the spring holidays approaching I’d like to take this opportunity to wish all the Christians here a meaningful Easter and to all the Jews a chag kosher v’sameach for Passover. If you need any gifts for the holidays, check out my website.

  95. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Joe, you’re babbling again. What are you talking about?
    I wonder if the person who posted this feels that Al Gore really won the 2000 election or, alternatively expressed concern that Bill Clinton had a plurality, not a majority.
    Go on wondering, it’s not relevant to my comment. In demographic terms, “barely half” means a population close to evenly divided. Given the enormity of horror that Saddam represented, that’s not exactly a picture of a people feeling liberated. (If you look at the numbers for the Kurds alone in that poll, that’s something more like what I would expect from a popoulation emerging into the daylight for liberation from totalitarianism.)
    If that poll is any indicator, then my guess the numbers will improve if and when security improves.

  96. Bjorn Kkerman Avatar

    I agree we should never let the terrorists have a say on our decisions.
    But you are wrong about the “Have the cake and eat it too” point of view.
    There was no (proven) connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda-9/11 when the Iraq war started or when Spain joined it. Now there is a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda, because the US invinted Al Qaeda in, and by association Spain is part of this invitation.
    So there was no cake to be had by the spanish in the first place and now they say No thank you by a truly democratic process. The first civilized response I have seen in all this mess.
    Bjorn.

  97. The Liberal from Hell Avatar
    The Liberal from Hell

    mateo — So when are you going to invade Zimbabwe and take out Robert Mugabe, whose regime is now responsible for mass starvation at home and political subversion in surrounding states?
    Like Iraq, he has not attacked the United States. So, what is the difference? Just asking.

    Hey, kids, I have an idea!
    Let’s invade Uzbekistan, whose leader has shown a marked penchant for watching his political opponents be boiled alive!
    Oh, gosh! I’m sorry, my mistake — he’s our ally in the “War on Terror”, and we have troops already stationed there …
    God, I love Bush’s moral clarity. Don’t you?

  98. Libruls-R-Us Avatar
    Libruls-R-Us

    Wow — I can’t believe it! Honey, come here and check out this Bush lovers’ circle jerk!