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No go Kyoto

21 comments on No go Kyoto

No go Kyoto
: I’m not sure exactly what I think about the Kyoto treaty but since we’ve been demonized on the topic, let’s note these two news stories today:

1: “Fifteen years of international effort to combat climate change appeared doomed last night after Russia said it would not ratify the Kyoto protocol, the world treaty on global warming. Russian ratification is necessary for the treaty to take effect.”

2: “The Kyoto climate change pact looked to be in trouble last night after the European commission warned that 13 of the EU’s 15 member states were set to miss their emission reduction targets by a huge margin.”

So is it still all our fault? Oh, that’s right, yes, everything is….

21 responses to “No go Kyoto”

  1. mario Avatar
    mario

    The EU would argue, of course, that Russia should be given a pass since, after all, WE are the cause of all the world’s pollution, right?
    Right.
    Pathetic. And kind of sad, too.

  2. John Thacker Avatar
    John Thacker

    Even the UK’s meeting the target is sort of artificially inflated– their baseline is pre-closure of most of their inefficient, heavily polluting coal pits (remember the wars between the coal miners’ union and the Tories?), so they get credit for decreasing pollution by shutting down inefficient operations that would never have been running in the US. Similarly, Russia and Eastern European countries, including Germany thanks to East Germany, get credit for shutting down Communist-era inefficient factories that again, wouldn’t be running in the US.

  3. hugh macleod Avatar
    hugh macleod

    The central tenet of European Yank-bashing is that you hold the USA to a higher standard than you hold yourselves to. Otherwise you just end up feeling foolish.

  4. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    Sorry guys,
    I go out of my way to support the US and feel current anti-Americanism in Europe deeply depressing and misinformed. Sometimes however it would be much better if we could look at issues objectively every now and then. Blogs like this would be much more productive if they could sometimes rise above the infantile murmurings of half-witted left-leaning Europeans (not all of us, in case you didn’t know) and assess issues in a clearer light. Regardless of whether or not Kyoto has been used as a political football, or whether it has its faults, global warming is simply an extraordinarily important issue. We don’t know the full effect it will have, by then it will be too late. We do know, despite all the absurd nonsense talked about it by this administration, that it is happening. The longer it’s ignored, the worse it will get. How sad, that the United States, which has done more than any other country in the world to improve the lot of humankind, should be so completely ignorant on the whole issue.

  5. Austin Fusilier Avatar
    Austin Fusilier

    While there is some debate over whether or not global warming actually occurs, the larger debate here, Phil, is whether or not humanity has anything to do with it. If the planet is getting _abnormally_ warmer (and that adjective is important), and humanity is having an effect upon that increase, then you’re right – we need to take action. But that’s far from decided. We don’t know that the planet is getting abnormally warmer. Matter of fact, there’s quite an argument going on about this – some have said that as recently as 500 years ago it was much warmer than it is now, and much warmer than it is projected to be. Nature works in cycles – who’s to say this isn’t a part of that cycle? And if it IS a part of that cycle, then interfering would be disastrous, no?
    I’m not saying one side or the other is correct. What I am saying is that we need to look at the research, and wait until we have more information before acting; because acting without information can be just as bad as inaction. And after all, if we stopped eating eggs every time science changed its mind, breakfast would be a very vacant meal.

  6. Dann Avatar
    Dann

    Austin-
    A well thought out and reasoned approach to a scientific problem. A preference for fact over debatable theory.
    Too bad that none of that seems to appear in the global climate wing of the scientific community. Or at the lease, those that prefer science to rhetoric aren’t afforded much time at the microphones.
    -Regards

  7. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    Thank you Austin,
    It is a nice post. But not actually true. Even Bush, in 2001, conceded that human activity has almost certainly caused an increase in global temperatures. It’s summarised in this book: http://www.nap.edu/catalog/10139.html
    (The National Academies are the foremost advisors to the United States on scientific issues)
    Science magazine, probably the most important scientific journal in the world, has consistently made the case that the evidence for human activity altering the climate is unanswerable. The wait and see argument has been used by the auto industry and everyone else with a vested interest for the longest time and is getting a little tiresome. We had the same extraordinary nonsense over whether or not smoking causes cancer (or whether or not Saddam Hussein is genocidal, for that matter). (Sorry, I got a little hot under the collar about this. Actually I think it was just sad that Jeff took so much Schadenfreude out of the whole thing, really something I’d expect from a European…)

  8. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    Hi Dann,
    Sorry, I’m missing the “facts”. I’ve got the book from the National Academies of the United States. That’s my source OK? Science works by presenting data, which is examined and then either accepted or rejected by the scientific community. It is extraordinarily rigorous. Unsubstantiated hearsay on websites does not pass as “science”.
    Regards
    Phil

  9. Mitch H. Avatar
    Mitch H.

    Phil, did you notice the recent down-grading of apparent warming over the last century? Long-term weather stations tend to be near cities. The suburban expansions brought a lot of formerly-rural weather stations into more urban, and thus warmer, environs. This produced a “warming” bias in a lot of baselines, which tended to distort computer models, built by climatologists already inclined to see their fears of warming made manifest. This was well-known in meteorological circles for several years before the climatologists accepted the argument and adjusted downwards.
    Authority isn’t infallibility. Especially when budgets depend on disaster-mongering.

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Canada’s “new” Prime Minister (on Dec 12) is apparently distancing himself from our commitments to Kyoto as reported in today’s National Post

  11. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Phil:
    http://www.oism.org/pproject/ there are plenty of scientists who say otherwise, including Fred Seitz, former President of the NAS you cite and Rockefeller University said, “I have never witnessed a more disturbing corruption of the peer-review process than the events that led to this IPCC report.”
    Science takes years to prove by not being able to disprove it. You may notice when there is a Nobel Prize for Medicine, it is for a discovery made 20, 30, 50 years ago.
    Now I see nothing wrong with making things more efficient over time. As people above mentioned, the US has met better standards than anyone and for example, we went to “lead free” petrol in 1980, not 2000 like the UK and Europe. It is not as though energy emissions have been ignored in the US.
    The Kyoto Treaty was another stupid money hole that no one seems to be meeting. Just like the EU itself that sets standards it never meets and mismanages their money, the people overseeing Kyoto would have done the same. It would have created a money pit and political corruption.

  12. BigFire Avatar
    BigFire

    Re: Catherine
    And remember, these very same Global Warming scientists were warning about overdue Ice Age back in the ’70s.

  13. Glenn Avatar
    Glenn

    Don’t you all see?? The abandonment of the Kyoto protocol by USA, Russia and some EU nations will lead to absolutely disastrous consequences!

  14. Dann Avatar
    Dann

    Phil-
    Assuming that it is still there (account was closed recently) you can read my full blown statement of skepticism here.
    Suffice to say, I find the climate change field to be philosophically inbred, populated by people driven by economic/social agendas as opposed to scientific investigation, and reliant upon models that are demonstrably inaccurate and inadequate.
    There are two questions in play.
    1. Is the climate changing? Yes. Absolutely. It has been doing so without the assistance or resistance of humanity for millions of years. (with apologies to biblical literalists)
    2. How much of this climate change is the result of human activity? The percentage of change for which humanity is responsible appears to be fairly minimal bordering on nonexistent. One factor that is invariably under-assessed is the increase in solar output from the sun. Another factor that is inadequately addressed is the location of weather stations in areas that later become urbanized.
    The net affect of Kyoto would be minimal to nonexistent. If the problem were truly serious, then Kyoto would not exempt third world nations from the “freeze” on CO2 emissions.
    When there is proof of a serious climate problem, predominantly caused by human action, for which a comprehensive solution is proposed demanding changes by every nation, then I will offer my support.
    This ain’t it.
    -Regards

  15. Eric in Denver Avatar
    Eric in Denver

    Just a point.
    Scientists agree that some thousands of years ago that large sheets of ice covered parts of the world. Scientists also agree that at some point at time these ice sheets retreated to back towards the poles. Now my question is why did the ice retreat? Was is part of the natural cycle of climatology on the earth? Or did the neanderthal habit of using too much hairspray contribute to the hole in the ozone, prompting the temperatures to rise? Or maybe it was emissions from unregulated UFO’s buzzing around the atmosphere? Enquiring minds want to know!

  16. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Big Fire –
    Actually, I did think of that! That’s what they said when I was growing up.
    As the Fonz would say, “exactamundo!”

  17. Jeremy Avatar
    Jeremy

    The sun is the real source for all of this.
    There’s a simple corelation between the number of sunspots on the sun and how active the sun is. (The more spots, the more active)
    And we known that during the “Mini Ice-Age” of a few hundred years ago, there were no sun spots seen on the sun.
    http://www.spaceweather.com/glossary/sunspotnumber.html
    Has a graph showing the numbers of sunspots per year. Notice how it’s trending upwards.
    Therefore, it’s not a surprise (to me anyway) we’re seeing warmer weather.

  18. brb Avatar
    brb

    “Science magazine … made the case that the evidence for human activity altering the climate is unanswerable.”
    Hows about a couple of actual points from the case? We can each side point at books all night, and never settle anything. What was the one point that you found most telling, that convinced you of the reality of human caused warming? I have yet to hear a convincing argument for anthropogenic warming. My feeling is that you, like all Europeans, apparently, are happy to accept what you are told by your leaders without question. Fine, just don’t expect it to carry the day outside of your inbred continent.

  19. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    One of the reasons the Russians gave for refusing Kyoto was that it was based on bad science. And they are not the only ones who think so.
    Anyone who watches American network news might be excused for accepting global warming as a fait accompli. That is how the networks report on it. Here are some excellent articles that belie that position:
    http://www.intellicast.com/DrDewpoint/Library/1255/
    http://www.intellicast.com/DrDewpoint/Library/1295/
    http://www.intellicast.com/DrDewpoint/Library/1305/
    One of the most telling things Dr. D’ALeo points out in these articles is that 25 years ago all of the media hype was about another ice age coming! Says a lot about our news media.
    http:\\www.junkscience.com has a lot to say about it too.

  20. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Also this article
    http://www.intellicast.com/DrDewpoint/Library/1395/GlobalWarmingArticle.pdf

  21. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    “…like all Europeans, apparently, are happy to accept what you are told by your leaders without question. Fine, just don’t expect it to carry the day outside of your inbred continent.”
    This represents the high point of what has been a fascinating and insightful discussion. If you’ll excuse me, I must go and do some inbreeding.