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Yes, something to learn from Europe

10 comments on Yes, something to learn from Europe

Yes, something to learn from Europe
: Norway is gobsmacked at Bush’s stance against gay marriage. From net-only newspaper Nettavisen:

Norwegian politicians are shocked that President Bush is opposing homosexual marriages and think the President should look to Norway, where several prominent politicians are openly gay and experiences with homosexual marriages are positive.

Kristin Halvorsen, leader of the socialist left-wing party SV, is shocked that President Bush is opposing homosexual marriages, as the attitude towards homosexuality is completely different in Norway. Norway legalised homosexual marriages 13 years ago.

Even the Norwegian Conservative Party, who is strongly represented in government, has a number of prominent members who are openly homosexual, amongst them Minister of Finance, Per-Kristian Foss….

In Europe, 10 countries have legalised homosexual marriages. The ten countries are France, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Finland, England, The Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden and Croatia. In certain areas of Spain and Switzerland homosexual marriages are legalised, according to AFP.

10 responses to “Yes, something to learn from Europe”

  1. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Oh, those Europeans, they are so much more sophisticated than us…so cool..blah blah blah…
    Next you are going to tell me that it’s no big deal when their leaders father children outside of marriage with their mistresses… oh wait, you did! They said that when Clinton was President.
    Did you know the Norwegian Crown Prince married an unwed mother? Those folks are so progressive!
    Marriage is also a rarity and their population has plummetted. In some of these progressive countries they give marriage benefits to try to encourage marriage. That says to me it’s devalued in their culture.
    That said, I don’t think that letting gays get married devalues marriage, but I don’t think these Europeans hold marriage in very high esteem regardless of who gets married. It’s like, you know, so old fashioned and not very, like, mod.

  2. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Sorry, but France has not legalized gay marriage. France has created a new statute (dubbed PaCS – Pacte Civil de Solidarit

  3. button Avatar
    button

    They have no population growth or future either. They have had a minus-population shrinkage and cannot support their aged.
    Europe, since the Holocaust, has become a museum. Many of them talk about ghosts quite often. Those who live in Prague, for example, say it’s haunted and claim they can feel the presences of these souls floating around. I talked to a young woman from NJ who visited Prague and she said she noticed it, too.
    Now, that Holland has legalized euthanesia of their aged, the Europeans are going to leave their elderly out in the forrest to die. Or maybe the airport.
    Perhaps it’s all connected… y’think?

  4. Eric Avatar
    Eric

    This is no surprise. America is the Land of the Free…unless you want to do something that runs afoul of the country’s many puritanical hang-ups. On these matters, which cover everything from teenage drinking to recreational drug use to prostitution to gay rights, nearly all European countries, even staunchly Catholic ones like Ireland and Poland, offer more personal freedom than the United States. And whereas the abortion debate in Europe revolves entirely around a woman’s right to choose versus a fetus’ right to exist, a question that reasonable people can disagree on the precise answer to, in America the debate’s twisted by reactionary elements who cynically make it part of their wretched culture war.
    If the average American wasn’t so blissfully ignorant of how the rest of the world lives, he might start feeling embarrassed about how his country, which prides itself on being a beacon of freedom and tolerance to all of mankind, is markedly less liberal and tolerant in some respects than many other developed nations. I’m not counting on it happening anytime soon.

  5. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Geez Eric, you sound down right judgmental! You are not being “open minded” to our culture! Our culture made up of many that chose our shores over the “progessive” shores of Europe. Many of our current wave of immigrants such as Chinese, Koreans, Indians and Mexicans are very marriage oriented and have, shall we say, “traditional” views of marriage. Politicians are aware of that. The liberals, such as Hillary Clinton, are straddling the fence for that reason too.
    As for Europe Eric, you are mistaken. In France the government prosecutes people who right books about government officials it disagrees with. You can’t buy as many TV’s as you like with out someone checking on it to tax you for it. England just recently guaranteed free speech. They were 20 years behind the U.S. in going “lead free” (aren’t we green!). Abortion is not legal in Ireland, I hate to tell you. On and on…
    There are good things and bad things about all countries. They choose to live their way, we choose to live ours. Many things are decided state to state (Vermont legalizing gay unions for example). We are not ignorant of the way others live Eric, we just choose to live differently and not change overnight to please, let’s say, the Norwegians.
    You should try to be more tolerant of the views of others. You sound hostile.

  6. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    OOPs.
    Write.

  7. Eric Avatar
    Eric

    My tolerance and open-mindedness towards a culture tends to end when it denies its people basic rights and throws them in jail for actions that harm no third party. This is as true for the United States as it is for Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not that I’d ever compare the US, a place that still offers a considerable amount of freedom, with such totalitarian theocracies, but the principle of the matter is the same. And I do find it ironic that many of those same conservatives who denounce their peers on the left for refusing to make value judgements on oppressive foreign regimes under the guise of multiculturalism demonstrate a similar attitude when it comes to their domestic policy views, trying to defend indefensible laws in the name of “protecting our culture.”
    Regarding your comments on Europe, note that I specifically mentioned issues where Americans have puritanical hang-ups. For the most part, free speech isn’t one of them, and purchasing a TV clearly isn’t. It goes without saying that the United States does offer more freedom than European countries in many respects, even if you exaggerated the scope of France’s speech laws, but most of them are irrelevant to the types of issues I brought up. Out of the dozens of countries in Europe, is there any place where a 20-year-old can be arrested for having a beer? Or where marijuana possession laws are half as strict as they are here? Of for that matter, where the government tries half as hard as it does here to prosecute underage drinkers and marijuana users? Also take a look at incarceration rates – America’s is several times higher than that of any Western European country.
    By the way, I hope you didn’t get the impression that I’m not an American. I was born and raised in South Jersey, and though I’ve travelled abroad a number of times, have lived in the US for all my life. Which is why it upsets me to see the country fall short of its stated ideals more than it would if I lived somewhere else.

  8. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Eric, I didn’t think you were anything other than a lefty self-hating American who probably humbly acknowleges all of “our” short comings and apologizes to Euro tourists. Like the students I recently to school with who insist things are more progressive in France yet had no idea that power in that country is reserved for the elite classes who have access to the power, say Chirac, now has. There are no Bill Clinton’s in France That’s what I saw in your post. Someone who bad mouths this country for things you disagree with yet probably will defend a country you barely know because you respect “their ways” or their “cultures.” That’s why I make fun of your lack of an “open mind.”
    We are actually historically the most progressive countries in the world. However, Eric, you would have to have a firm grasp of world history (including history in the making) to understand that. Not that we are perfect. There are plent of things I disagree with such as the Rockefeller drug laws. However, I fail to see how free pot or hash bars make a country superior.
    Eric, you focus on “issues where Americans have puritanical hang-ups. For the most part, free speech isn’t one of them, and purchasing a TV clearly isn’t. It goes without saying that the United States does offer more freedom than European countries in many respects.” Well I consider free speech against the government to be more important than legal pot. That’s the difference between you and me, and the fact that you are focused on issues that effect such a small part of the population. You also exaggerate the imprisonment for pot smoking or drinking beer under age. Please. You show your age. There are few for that. There was plenty of underage drinking and drugging in my day (late ’80s) and I don’t know anyone who was “busted.” Even when I lived in strictly regulated North Carolina (see, laws vary by State Eric).
    The real problem is “three strikes your out” for drugs, I would agree. Under age drinking? Please. However, I would support driving age raised to 18 and drinking lowered to 18, just MHO.

  9. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Ooohhh! Eric! They are banning smoking in cafe’s in Holland! What’s next?!! A ban on cannabis!?? Those puritanical Dutch! Oooh! This makes me madder than slapping a cold blooded assasin (the lefty enviro murderer who killed Fortyn) with a 18 year sentence. Check out this story on the puritanical smoking ban!
    http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_785707.html

  10. Eric Avatar
    Eric

    Eric, I didn’t think you were anything other than a lefty self-hating American who probably humbly acknowleges all of “our” short comings and apologizes to Euro tourists.
    Way too funny. My views on economics and foreign policy are almost certainly further to the right than yours. But sadly, I find this kind of political stereotyping quite often among knee-jerk ideologues of all types.
    We are actually historically the most progressive countries in the world. However, Eric, you would have to have a firm grasp of world history (including history in the making) to understand that.
    The laughs just don’t stop, do they? I took college-level courses for both American and European history before I was out of high school. And I scored fives on both AP exams. I also did a minor in American history while in college, and have a couple dozen history books on my bookshelf.
    It goes without saying that the US is one of the most progressive countries in the history world, and that the Bill of Rights was a watershed event as far as the history of human liberty is concerned. But I think you’d agree that world history is a pretty ugly thing. And my comments were specifically in reference to the present day.
    The rest of your post is filled with senseless non-sequitirs that are irrelevant and/or deliberately evade the issues I brought up, and which accuse me of holding other beliefs that I don’t hold, and never claimed to hold (e.g. free speech being less important than legalized pot). Hence they’re not worth responding to.
    By the way, the Dutch smoking law has nothing to do with purtianism, and a lot to do with public health matters. Teenage drinking and marijuana laws in America, among many other laws, are aimed at protecting people from themselves, hence the puritanism. The Dutch smoking law is aimed at protecting people from the actions of others. I still disagree with it, as I disagree with similar laws that have been passed in the US. But to anyone with a basic grasp of the the law’s intentions, the difference is considerable.