BuzzMachine

The media pundit's pundit. Written by NYC insider Jeff Jarvis, BuzzMachine covers news, media, journalism, and politics.

Ungrateful louses

18 comments on Ungrateful louses

Ungrateful louses
: For the first time in years, Muslims in Iraq were able to go to Friday prayers in public.

And did their imams take just a moment to thank Allah, if not the U.S. for this new religious freedom and their escape from tyranny?

Not according to this report. Instead, they railed against both the U.S. occupation — and democracy.

That, of course, is because these religious dictators would like to take over.

Fartusi urged the faithful to follow the dictates of the Shiite “Hawza,” the council of senior clergymen, and spelled out a code of conduct including a ban on music, mandatory veils for women and the primacy of Islamic over tribal law.

The cleric at one of Shiite Islam’s holiest shrines in the city of Karbala south-west of here was more explicit in denouncing the presence of US troops he called “unbelievers.”

It is time for us infidel Westerners — religious leaders and the leaders of the U.N., France, Germany, and all their fellow travelers — to demand democracy for Iraq, to make it clear that we cannot trade a secular dictatorship for a religious dictatorship.

18 responses to “Ungrateful louses”

  1. Pyecraft Avatar
    Pyecraft

    Yeah, well good luck with that one Jeff. They’re gonna hang on to their dark age mentality for dear life. Or, more like, the cheaper lives of their dickhead followers.

  2. Orson Avatar
    Orson

    Not doubt its the long oppressed Iraqi Shias, wanting to join their brothers in Iran.
    Look for this test soon: can fellow Muslims’ say “Hell no–we won’t go!” and NOT get assassinated?
    OUR work will not be donte in Iraq until it can.

  3. Moira Avatar
    Moira

    It’s hard not to get worried by reports like this because I have no way of knowing how many Shias want a secular state and how many want and Islamic state. I read recently that under Saddam’s program of Arabization, people were encouraged to register as Arabs because then Saddam could move them at will around the country, and many Shia from the southern areas were relocated to the northern areas under this program, so they aren’t just concentrated in the lower half of the country. Also, a systematic census of the population hasn’t been taken since around 1957. The 60% Shia figure most often quoted could well underrepresent the true number of Shia in the country, and I’ve heard several secular exiles use the figure 75%.
    On the other hand, I remind myself that the Shias desperately wanting an Iranian-style mullahtocracy are probably still in the minority. Other reports have claimed that the Iraqi Shia clerics historically have believed government should be run by the educated merchant class, leaving Imams in the mosques. It’s a somewhat different story in Iran, where clerics have historically played direct political roles. But although Iran is currently dominated by the hardline ayatollahs, only about 30% of the people are resistant to the idea of secularization. Many of the mid-level clerics in Iran supposedly want a more secular democracy, and a majority of the people under age 30 (one-half of the population), want the ayalollahs out of government altogether. The Iranian ayatollahs have a huge stake in seeing an Islamic government in Iraq because their own positions thereby become more secure; and conversely, a secular goverment in Iraq could embolden the Iranians who also want a secular government.
    For sure, the Kurds and Sunni muslims will never
    submit to an Iranian-style government led by Shia clerics, and I expect a good percentage, if not a majority, of the Shia who have been living in the urban areas don’t want it either.
    I’ve read that the Iranian-backed Iraqi clerics pushing for Islamic control of the government (as in your examples) are pushing as hard right as they are because once a representative interim government is in place and working on a timeline toward full elections and a permanent government, they will not have the degree of influence that they do right now. They have to encourage noisy “Go home, USA” demonstrations, even only a few days liberation, because what they want is a longshot to begin with and they’re leveraging all their power to get us out of the conversation.
    I also question current reports about these demonstrations. How many people are actually demonstrating? I keep reading “thousands” but there are five million people in Baghdad, and around two million of them are Shia. If “thousands” means two or three thousand, even ten thousand, well, that’s a tiny percentage. Karbala is a holy shrine city, so it’s more understandable that they want a cleric in charge (I think here of a comparison with Vatican City).
    Reporters love to work readers and viewers up into a froth, and then start dribbling out information that puts the whole thing in context days later. They might actually be onto a big movement (in which case, we’re in trouble), but they’ve been so overwrought and unbalanced about the fighting and the looting that I can afford to be skeptical for now.

  4. Matt McIrvin Avatar
    Matt McIrvin

    Hmm… I recently saw the blog of some guy in Iran– probably couldn’t find it again now if I tried; I can’t remember how I got there– who was saying that he thought Shiites were historically less inclined toward absolute theocracy than Sunnis. He saw Khomeini and his successors as an aberration and didn’t think there was much to worry about from theocrats in Iraq.
    Of course he could just be unduly influenced by experience of the past couple of years in Iran, with the popular support of the mullahs among the young eroding to nil; I have no idea whether this is actually indicative of a historic norm.

  5. Diana Avatar
    Diana

    Jeff, On the one hand you are pissed that they are expressing themselves. On the other, you demand democracy. What happens if they use their vote to install the mullahs who are running these demos?

  6. jeanne a e devoto Avatar
    jeanne a e devoto

    Diana’s point brings into focus that elections are in some ways the least important of the essential elements of democracy. Democracy doesn’t just mean “rule of the majority” or “one man, one vote, once”, and we need to make this clearer if it’s not already clear.
    A constitution (one that’s hard to amend without the consent of a large majority of the people and a cross-section of all interests) is important. In particular, a bill of rights guaranteed to all is important. A commitment on the part of the people to maintaining those rights is paramount.
    Given these things, a theocratic cleric being elected is not much of a worry. Without them, it’s a potential end of democracy.

  7. John Anderson Avatar
    John Anderson

    It might inflame the whole region, or I would suggest that the mullahs calling for a Taliban-style government be prosecuted for “inciting to riot.”
    It might also be fun to strap a .45 pistol on Condi Rice and have her chair all meetings discussing the new government format…

  8. Van der Leun Avatar
    Van der Leun

    As this and hundreds of other incidents makes clear, we are going to have to understand… sooner or later… that no matter what anyone may say… this is a religious war .
    ===

  9. Dan Z. Avatar
    Dan Z.

    I have high hopes for democracy in Iraq, but low expectations. To most Iraqis, I suspect any government we attempt to create will seem contaminated and illegitimate, and thus won’t last long after we pull our troops out. My hunch is that, in the end, we will have traded a secular dictatorship for a fanatical theocracy, but I hope I’m wrong.

  10. Pyecraft Avatar
    Pyecraft

    You’re not wrong Dan, but it is inconceivable that the coalition’s more intelligent strategists didn’t expect this inevitably obvious outcome long before Bush’ “lets go” order.
    Surely then, there exists some counter-strategy which we lowbrows are not worthy of knowing yet.

  11. MommaBear Avatar
    MommaBear

    Given the stirrings and gathering unrest in Iran, it behooves us to make sure that, at least in the short-term, the mullahs are NOT permitted to get a stranglehold on civic affairs. Iranians don’t have the means, yet, to throw off those chains, but if we permit Iraq to be thus bound, shame on us for not preventing it.

  12. frank becktel Avatar
    frank becktel

    We have to try to cut the Iraqis some slack. How can we expect them to form a more perfect union in less time than it took us to count votes in Florida?

  13. hal Avatar
    hal

    What do you mean,”WE cannot trade…” This isn’t your government. Let the Iraqi’s decide what kind of government they want. The coalition has done what they sey out to do- get rid of Saddam. I keep thinking of TV show reference to non-interference.

  14. Balbulican Avatar
    Balbulican

    Given that Iraq is a Muslim country, it seems to me probably that its people would choose a form of government that is reflective of their culture. That might run the gamut from simple recognition of Islam as the state religion, to the use of religious councils as advisory bodies in the development of policy and legislation, to a full fledged theocracy. It will be interesting to see what range of options is judged to be acceptable by the US.

  15. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    To Balbulican: and what about the Christians and Jews that still live in Iraq? Are they to be counted among the citizens of this “Muslim country”? Why is it okay for non-Western nations to be considered one-religion countries, but people do backflips of outrage whenever the United States is called a “Christian nation” by some of its citizens? (And no, I am not one of those citizens.)

  16. Balbulican Avatar
    Balbulican

    Hi, Andrea. Not being privy to the deliberations of the body that is designing the governance structure, I don’t really know: I would assume that the non-Muslim citizens of Iraq will form a 5% minority in whatever country emerges from this process. As for the backflips, I’ve always thought of the USA as a predominantly Christian nation, given that about 80 of its inhabitants are Christian: however, I understood that your founding fathers believed in the separation of Church and state.

  17. Moira Avatar
    Moira

    I read an updated story that only about 50,000 Baghdad Muslims (Sunni and Shia) attended Friday services because of security fears out of a metro population of 5 million Muslims. The number of demonstrators was estimated by onlookers to be about 10,000. So 0.01% of the population of Baghdad attended services (and those would be the most observant Muslims of all and therefore the ones most likely to want an Islamic state), and only 0.002% of the metro Muslim population participated in the demonstration against the coalition.
    The Marsh Shia in the south are very observant, and the Muslims in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala can be expected to be very observant, but there is so far no indication that Muslims across the country want Sharia Law and an ayatollah in charge. The Kurds won’t give up their democracy, and the Sunnis–looking across Sunni dominated countries in the ME–don’t favor theocracies.
    I think the Iranian-influenced Muslims will agitate to the last minute and probably beyond, but I don’t believe they will prevail.

  18. Diana Avatar
    Diana

    Jeanne, Your points are excellent but one little nit: the election of a mullah under any circumstances would be terrible. (Remember Hitler?) Electing a mullah would ensure one person, one vote, one time. I’m reasonably hopeful that we can set up a stable democracy within a span of five or so years. I’m even hopeful that we can create the kind of mediating institutions that will convince Iraqis to put religion in its proper place, that is, private spiritual solace, out of government and out of the economic system.
    I also agree that we should cut the Iraqis a bit of slack and not go loco over one probably overhyped demonstration.
    On another subject, there are officially (however these things get official) 38 Jews left in Iraq. But I wonder if there aren’t a couple thou more salted away who are gonna “come out of the closet” as they did in Poland when the commies fell. I’m looking forward to what (or rather, who) turns up.

  19. New York Times to Buy About.com for $410 million | Rex Hammock's RexBlog.com

    […] (via: BuzzMachine) […]