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They bomb children

157 comments on They bomb children

They are the worst of mankind: The terrorists in Iraq are now bombing children.

Outside the door to the refrigerated room, Amjad’s sobbing mother called his name over and over, as if to summon him back to life. Then she looked up and asked: “What did he do to deserve this? They are killing children. Why? Why?”

Amjad and more than a dozen other children from east Baghdad’s al-Khalij neighborhood made up the majority of the 27 people killed when a suicide bomber drove into a crowd that had gathered around U.S. soldiers who were handing out candy and small toys, police said.

Why does any responsible news organization try to dignify these people with labels like “insurgent,” as if they have a cause and a purpose other than murder? Why doesn’t every national and religious leader in the Arab world condemn these criminals for what they are? Why aren’t other nations joining the fight to rid Iraq of this evil?

157 responses to “They bomb children”

  1. CaptiousNut Avatar
    CaptiousNut

    Terrorist appeasement and whitewashing don’t have the requisite punishment.
    Many of the informed public already tune out, the NY Times, BBC, CNN, and network news. Even with declining audiences and readers, I think we haven’t gone far enough.
    I think it is time to put direct pressure on all companies that advertise for the propaganda outlets.

  2. Fenton Avatar
    Fenton

    Why aren’t nations helping fight this evil? Rhetorical question obviously, but it’s still worth pointing out that nations act like humans- they can be bitter, exuberant, and irrational all at once.
    There weren’t all that many suicide bombings in Iraq before we got there so it’s seen our very much being our fault and mess.
    They then probably rationalize it by saying that if we really cared about people, then we would being doing something about genocide, famine, or possibly even stop being one of the world’s largest arms dealers.
    You would think that we could all come to a reasonable conclusion not to support any country kills people or allows people to die, but then no one would get any support it would seem.

  3. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    Some of these crimes are proof in and of themselves that the perpetrators can’t seriously believe they’re serving any kind of religious purpose. Terrorism is too good a name, psychopaths is the only one I know that’s appropriate.

  4. Noel Guinane Avatar
    Noel Guinane

    Ruth, I agree. I call them criminals, fanatical criminals if you like. The terrorists want to be religious martyrs. I don’t want to help give them a prestige they do not deserve.

  5. steve Avatar
    steve

    We didn’t see suicide bombings before because the ruling leadership of the country was killing people by the tens of thousands on its own. Those thugs are now killing their own people through other means, trying to cower them into turning the power back to them.

  6. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Sickening, is my first response to this event. Then outrage that it’s not getting the sort of press it deserves.
    This sort of thing proves that the “Iraqi Insurgency” are not fighting for the interests of the Iraqi people. They are just loathsome scum, hellbent on creating more death and destruction.

  7. penny Avatar
    penny

    “I do not know how anyone in the world — whether they believe or do not believe in God — could do something like kill a kid,” he said. The attackers “are after us and the American forces, and we understand that because we are after them, too. But how could they hurt those innocent kids?”
    Because they are sub-human animals.
    In spite of Beslan, there are still the mentally muddled and morally bankrupt willing to examine the “root causes” and suggest moral equivalencies for these child killers as if it applies. You don’t have to look farther than the BBS where “child killer” is nomenclatured as “insurgent”.
    Some of these crimes are proof in and of themselves that the perpetrators can’t seriously believe they’re serving any kind of religious purpose.
    Only if you believe that all of their motives are secular. The dead kids in Darfur sure weren’t killed for secular motives. If you get 72 virgins in the next life as a reward for killing kids as a suicide bomber in Israel, I would call that a religious incentive.

  8. Josh Avatar
    Josh

    These are the friends of the anti-war crowd.

  9. Cog Avatar
    Cog

    This has been going on for 2+ years.

  10. Greg Avatar
    Greg

    You know, by my dictionary, which defines insurgent as “guerrilla; a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment”. Seems to fit. Just because you want harsher words doesn’t mean they should appear in a historical record. Many people want to call American troops of the late 1800s murderers because of all the native americans they killed, but that label never stuck.
    Plus, people tend to think of terrorists as oriented around planned events. a bombing, a kidnapping, etc. these people seem to be more spontaneous, fighting with troops and civilians whenever opportunity strikes. these people are fighters, not planners.
    So, in my mind, the insurgent label works. I like how a single word like insurgent can drive certain people up the wall. It’s hilarious. Instead of focusing on who these people actually are and how to deal with them, they squabble over labels.

  11. Drew W Avatar
    Drew W

    Can’t we just refer to them as “Michael Moore’s Minutemen” from now on?

  12. Greg Avatar
    Greg

    In spite of Beslan, there are still the mentally muddled and morally bankrupt willing to examine the “root causes” and suggest moral equivalencies for these child killers as if it applies.
    What? Who suggested a moral equivalence for this or Beslan? And why shouldn’t we examine the root causes? Fighting the symptoms haven’t gone very well, so perhaps we should dig deeper and find out who exactly these murderous savages are. By “root causes”, I mean finding out why these people are the way they are so we can prevent this in the future by enlisting the help of those on our side and making sure those on the fence about to turn into an insurgent (or a terrorist, if you prefer) does not. These are, by and large, angry young men. But then again, we haven’t been able to solve the problem of how to deal with the angry young men in our society either, so why would Iraq be any different?
    Reactive measures will never be as good as proactive ones. Grow up.

  13. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    Greg: good point
    “If you get 72 virgins in the next life as a reward for killing kids as a suicide bomber in Israel, I would call that a religious incentive.” Sorry, I come from a different kind of religious background, especially as regards ‘religious incentive’. :-}

  14. Maureen Avatar
    Maureen

    Yes, it’s interesting that the apologists who were posting here last week & criticizing Jeff for using naughty words like “terrorist” & pointing out Galloway’s idiocy aren’t here today. You know, the ones who claim it was all our fault for the bombings.
    I’d love to hear Galloway’s explanation for this attack. Or those posters from last week. Come one gang–surely there’s a way to make it the kids’ fault. I mean, they shouldn’t have been standing near US soldiers. Damn those rotten evil soldiers–handing out sweets to kids! And handing out sweets without warning labels! Hey, if the bomb hadn’t killed them, those rotten soldiers may have contributed to obesity & diabetes. Yup, it’s all America’s fault.
    Because they’re not terrorists, they’re “freedom fighters”. Freedom by slaughtering children. (Altho, hey, Saddam did it, & he was just a misunderstood but lovable coot according to Galloway & others, so why are we nitpicking over lunatics blowing up children anyway?)

  15. james Avatar
    james

    Ah yes, blaming it on Michael Moore, truly insightful.

  16. steve k Avatar
    steve k

    Some comments here are sad.
    “These are the friends of the anti-war crowd.”
    How about blaming the psycho murders themselves? Their deluded, evil plans are not in any way related to liberals, galloway, Moore etc.
    For the posters here to claim that connection or that liberals, or democrats condone such horror, is just wrong.

  17. Kirk Avatar
    Kirk

    So while we’re at it why not blame the president? Had he not invented his fictitious war, a strong argument could be made that those children would be sleeping peacefully right now in their beds.
    Bring on the flames!

  18. Amrit Hallan Avatar
    Amrit Hallan

    I think people who justify terrorism should be punished.

  19. frightened and anonymous Avatar
    frightened and anonymous

    Kirk, it’s jsut as likely that he not invented this war that the kids would have been killed by a US or British missile strike. Look at the civilian casualty figures from the end of the first Iraq war to the start of this one and realize that civilians have been victimized by both sides. Nobody gets a pass on this.

  20. penny Avatar
    penny

    Plus, people tend to think of terrorists as oriented around planned events. a bombing, a kidnapping, etc. these people seem to be more spontaneous, fighting with troops and civilians whenever opportunity strikes. these people are fighters, not planners.
    Greg, the terrorists engage in all of the above activities.
    So, Greg, if you were kidnapped in Fallujah today by either the “insurgents” or the “terrorists” which group by their behavior to date would give you better odds at living?
    These are, by and large, angry young men. But then again,we haven’t been able to solve the problem of how to deal with the angry young men in our society either, so why would Iraq be any different?
    Bingo. Got a twofer. Root cause and a moral equivalence apologist.
    Yep, Greg, since we haven’t solved anger in some young men here – like a government can engineer a childhood free of numbskulled or abusive parents? – we should suspend or soften our judgement of the homicidal angry in Iraq. Is that what you are saying?

  21. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Armrit said, “I think people who justify terrorism should be punished.”
    I think people who are terrorists should be punished. I think terrorist sympathizers are despicable, but we need to concentrate on the perpetrators.
    Here’s one for you, though, who has killed more people in Iraq? Terrorists or the US? This is a real question. The answer is probably that we don’t know. The US doesn’t keep track of non US casualties, but it does seem that over 100,000 Iraqis are dead. Who is responsible for these deaths? Sadam? The terrorists? Bush?
    Unfortunately for those of you who can only see in black and white, the answer is all of the above, and the only one we have real power over is Bush. We as a country are directly responsible for turning Iraq into a terrorists breeding ground by invading without a plan for the postwar occupation–plans that were deliberately and, I think, criminally negligently omitted from the invasion plans. Before the invasion Iraq may have been a serious enemy, but it was not a source of terrorists, unlike Saudi Arabia.

  22. Yehudit Avatar
    Yehudit

    “it does seem that over 100,000 Iraqis are dead.”
    This number has been debunked numerous times but the meme still floats through the blogosphere. Latest study by the UN, using 3x the households surveyed by the Lancet study, estimates 24,000 deaths attributable to violence. Neither survey attributes the deaths to anyone in particular, nor differentiates among the dead.
    Therefore you cannot say
    1) that all the deaths are innocent people, many of them are “insurgents” “terrorists” what have you.
    2) many of the dead were killed by “insurgents” “terrorists” what have you.
    But let’s stop floating that false 100,000 number around, ok?
    And let’s remember how many Saddam killed every week. by any measure the Iraqis are better off and they know it and say so repeatedly. So you can either listen to them or to smug Western antiwar activists.

  23. Yehudit Avatar
    Yehudit

    “We as a country are directly responsible for turning Iraq into a terrorists breeding ground by invading without a plan for the postwar occupation–plans that were deliberately and, I think, criminally negligently omitted from the invasion plans. Before the invasion Iraq may have been a serious enemy, but it was not a source of terrorists, unlike Saudi Arabia.”
    There were plenty of postwar plans and many of them were put into operation. The fruit of the democracy promotion programs is the successful election on Jan 30th and the subsequent progress in forming a govt.
    Of course Iraq was a source of terrrorists:
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110006953
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp
    http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2441.htm
    http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp
    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010823.php
    http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=229204&attrib_id=7595
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/436zhuju.asp
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040715-121130-6893r
    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/033407.php
    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/2de9cdb4-401e-11d9-bd0e-00000e2511c8.html
    And I could go on……

  24. penny Avatar
    penny

    but it does seem that over 100,000 Iraqis are dead
    Seem? Try some facts. How many damn times
    does that bogus number get repeated? It has been thoroughly discredited. AP’s initial tally was under 4000.
    breeding ground?
    How’s that when 80% of the terrorists operating in Iraq weren’t bred there? And the remaining are unreformed ex-Baathists.
    Try mastering some facts, Skate.

  25. Maureen Avatar
    Maureen

    This link has an excellent roundup of coverage relating to the TERRORIST murders of the children.
    http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/003160.html
    Read it & weep. Then, please, feel free to jump in & tell us all how it’s justified.
    Keep scrolling thru it & you’ll see a story about how the majority of those “freedom fighters” are being recruited from outside Iraq.
    There’s also a lovely bit about how those “freedom fighters” forced a child with Down’s Syndrome to become a suicide bomber at a polling station, ultimately blowing the poor child up themselves because he was so terrified. (What, didn’t he understand that he’s a “freedom fighter” & would win 72 virgins?)
    Religion of Peace my ass. But we wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, so let’s not say anything that might offend a group that has become extremely effective in casting itself as picked-on victims that must nevernevernevernever be criticized or we’re racist.

  26. penny Avatar
    penny

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/554awdqo.asp
    For my non-working “discredited” link.

  27. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Thankfully others have already pointed out the fallacy of the 100,000 number to Skate. In my opinion, anyone who still floats that number has the rest of his argument completely discredited. So I will challenge Skate on a statement before the number:
    Here’s one for you, though, who has killed more people in Iraq? Terrorists or the US? This is a real question.
    Are you somehow trying to equate US conduct in war to that of terrorists? This isn’t a real question, this is a backhanded attempt to say the US is just as bad as the terrorists, and it’s dispicable.

  28. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    By Penny “How’s that when 80% of the terrorists operating in Iraq weren’t bred there? And the remaining are unreformed ex-Baathists.
    Try mastering some facts, Skate.”
    Oh, Eileen by any other name. How many **terrorists** were there in Iraq before we got there? I referred to Iraq as a “terrorist breeding ground.” Sure, the **new** terrorist may be Baathists but they weren’t terrorists until we got there?
    By Mike, “Are you somehow trying to equate US conduct in war to that of terrorists? This isn’t a real question, this is a backhanded attempt to say the US is just as bad as the terrorists, and it’s dispicable. ”
    Is asking about the truth despicable, Mike? Avoiding reality is despicable! Dead is dead. Dead people don’t really care who killed them.
    There is a difference between terrorists and the US. Despicable terrorists mean to kill innocent civilians, we don’t but we do it by accident. That is the moral difference. But the result is still dead people regardless of the intent. If we want to maintain the moral high ground, we not only need to not kill innocents on purpose we also need to kill fewer innocents in total than the terrorists. You can’t win hearts and minds through massive collateral casualties. That is just a fact you’ll have to accept because it is true.
    Is it ok to kill innocents just because we don’t mean to? If terrorists kill 10,000 people on purpose and we kill 10,000 as collateral damage, don’t you think that is important to take into account into future decisions to go to war? Or are you holding your hands over your ears and going “lalalalalalala?”
    No, we are not the same as the terrorists, so don’t even **try** to say that I’m a terrorist sympathizer. But I am an innocent dead people sympathizer and I’d like to see fewer of them in every country.
    The war in Iraq is a mess because of incompetent post-war planning which has lead to hundreds and hundreds of American deaths–Shouldn’t the people who’s reality-dodging hubris caused needless deaths be held accountable?

  29. John Avatar
    John

    From Merriam Webster:
    abhorrent, abominable, detestable, execrable, hateful, loathsome, odious; disgusting, repugnant, repulsive; disgraceful, dishonorable, shameful; base, ignoble, low, mean; shabby, sordid, squalid, vile; cowardly, craven, dastardly
    None of these words works for me, they cannot convey the depth of this depravity.
    We need a new word.
    Or better yet, let’s not worry about describing this behavior, let’s commit to the eradication of it’s perpetrators.
    There is neither a requirement to or logic in rewarding this subhuman behavior with humane treatment.
    I’m not suggesting inhumane treatment, only swift conduct to their sought after eternal reward.
    Let their God be their judge.

  30. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    If we want to maintain the moral high ground, we not only need to not kill innocents on purpose we also need to kill fewer innocents in total than the terrorists. You can’t win hearts and minds through massive collateral casualties. That is just a fact you’ll have to accept because it is true.
    Where is your source that we have killed more civilians in this conflict than the terrorists? As far as I know there is no reliable number, but you seem willing to accept it as truth.
    The war in Iraq is a mess because of incompetent post-war planning which has lead to hundreds and hundreds of American deaths
    Do you always just regurgitate the prevailing leftist talking points?

  31. penny Avatar
    penny

    Is asking about the truth despicable, Mike?
    You don’t get it, Skate? You’re the guy that pulled the factless 100,000 casualty number out of your ass and haven’t as yet stood corrected.
    Blathering on with the dribble about your “truth” quest put’s you in the idiot’s column.
    You need to shut up and listen, cut the stupid string of mindless mantras, learn some critical thinking skills and start respecting facts. Otherwise, life is going to be very hard on you.

  32. Johan Avatar
    Johan

    God bless George Bush. Had it not been for him, gun-toting Iraqis would be running amok killing and looting in the streets of Manhattan. We are much safer as a result of his leadership…

  33. Jesse Avatar
    Jesse

    Re: civilian deaths, this site reports about 24K or so:
    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
    Ahhhh, only 24K that’s much better.

  34. Gunther Avatar
    Gunther

    Mike — Your arguments might carry more weight if you knew how to spell. The word is “despicable”, not “dispicable”.

  35. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    From Penny,
    “You need to shut up and listen”
    Ah, you forgot to add “Dissent is treason” and “Don’t question authority” to your post.
    Before you go accusing people of pulling things from their a**, you should probably see if **you** have any of the facts that you claim are so important to you. The 100,000 deaths figures comes from the Lancet study. While you may dispute the study’s methodology, you can’t dispute that the Lancet study didn’t come out of my a**, unlike your lie to the contrary.
    To quote someone who doesn’t walk the talk, “learn some critical thinking skills and start respecting facts.” To which I’d add, and actually use them.
    If you actually believe critical thinking and facts you should be embarrassed by your blunder.

  36. Gunther Avatar
    Gunther

    “So, let’s call it 15,000 oróallowing for deaths that the press didn’t reportó20,000 or 25,000, maybe 30,000 Iraqi civilians killed in a pre-emptive war waged (according to the latest rationale) on their behalf. That’s a number more solidly rooted in reality than the Hopkins figureóand, given that fact, no less shocking.” — from Slate
    The above quote comes from the same Slate article linked to above as a purported debunking of the figure of 100,000 Iraqi dead. 30,000 or 100,000, you make the call — it still seem like a lot of Iraqis were killed as a direct result of the invasion. And note that the same article used (above) to attack the notion that anything like this happened referred to the death rate as “shocking”.
    In any event, I can’t help but feel that this is a pointless debate, because the people who are trying to downplay and ridicule the estimates of Iraqi war dead donít care what the ultimate number actually is; they simply donít care about dead Iraqis unless theyíre the ìright kindî of dead Iraqi.

  37. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    By John, “Let their God be their judge.”
    Please, let’s keep religion out of the retribution as much as possible. The terrorists are **fine** with letting their god be their judge. They think their god will reward them!
    GW thinks god is on his side. The “god backs me and not you” justification for fighting is a poor one and one that can’t be proven one way or another by the actions of people. Terrorists deserve punishment here on earth where we can be sure of what punishment they are getting.
    Terrorists don’t care who they kill. Women, babies, whatever. You don’t have to be religious to know that is wrong.

  38. Johan Avatar
    Johan

    You tell ’em Penny!
    You’re either with us or you’re against us! God bless America! To question our leader is anti-American, expect guys in dark suits to knock at yor door any minute now, Skate. You will be assimilated.

  39. Dmac Avatar
    Dmac

    Johan –
    I think satire is meant to be subtle. Unless you meant something else…

  40. penny Avatar
    penny

    Ahhhh, only 24K that’s much better.
    Sorry, Jesse. It’s not any better because it isn’t very accurate.
    iraqbodycount.com has an agenda. But, you knew that.
    And, Gunter, I care that when insane numbers like 100,000 or even 20,000 civilian casualites are thrown carelessly about and used to degrade Americans. I like the American military. They are good people. You’re little… “they simply donít care about dead Iraqis unless theyíre the ìright kindî of dead Iraqi”….reeks of smarmy disingenuous game playing. What other pathetic challenges can you throw out?

  41. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Dmac,
    Satire doesn’t have to be subtle. I suppose I could check with the International Satirical Standards Association (ISSA) rules and double check. Rest assured that everything is for the best in this most perfect of all worlds and that it could not be otherwise.

  42. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    @ that great lover of critical thinking and facts, Penny, who wrote,
    “Sorry, Jesse. It’s not any better because it isn’t very accurate.
    iraqbodycount.com has an agenda. But, you knew that.”
    I’m so glad that you could link to the **unbiased** opinion of the Weekly Standard to “debunk” iraqbodycount’s numbers.
    Actually, the “Weekly Standard” apparently doesn’t approve of fact checking, Penny. From MediaMatters.org:
    “In the November 15 edition of The Weekly Standard, [Stephen] Hayes criticized the media for conducting “fact checks,” apparently arguing that checking the veracity of candidates’ statements is a bad practice:
    For some 16 months, then, journalists at the New York Times and the Washington Post and the television networks saw themselves not as conveyors of facts but as truth-squadders, toiling away on the gray margins of political debate to elucidate the many misstatements, exaggerations, and outright lies of the Bush administration and its campaign affiliates. Sometimes these “fact-check” pieces were labeled “news analysis.” More often, they were splashed on the front page as straight news or presented on the evening news.”
    Yup, you, Penny, are quoting from a source that considers fact checking for accuracy to be bias. Your sources are just as reliable as your posts.

  43. John Avatar
    John

    skate,
    “Please, let’s keep religion out of the retribution as much as possible.”
    Let me explain:
    I see these acts as absolutely without moral or spiritual justification, although the perpetrators claim both.
    My guess is that even their own deity won’t have them, and I will leave judgement to him.
    In this life, I’m concerned with neutralizing the threat they pose to religious and non-religious alike. The only sure way to accomplish this is to dispatch them from this physical plane without hesitation or remorse.

  44. penny Avatar
    penny

    Skate, the first rule of internet debate is to link to the origninal source material. What you’ve quoted looks entirely out of context and disjointed.
    Color me unimpressed.

  45. von Avatar
    von

    Of course it is america’s fault. If it wasn’t for GWB, none of this would be happening. When we get a democratic president next year or so, all this shit will magically heal itself. Nothing like this EVER happened before we went in to Iraq!! /sarcasm

  46. Dmac Avatar
    Dmac

    Skate –
    Thank you for proving my point.

  47. penny Avatar
    penny

    Skate, you mean this this leftist agenda driven Media Matters as your fact source in critizing the Weekly Standard and not on the issue of civilian casualties, mind you?
    Shame on you. You can do better.
    Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media..
    The question for you is: has any one debunked Slate, AP or the Weekly Standard on the civilian casualty issue?
    Answer so far: No

  48. Frederika Avatar
    Frederika

    Af course it is america’s fault…reading the following two bloggers has my stomach in knots:
    Tiny Body Bags and With Friends Like These
    “In each case, US forces attracted large numbers of children to them by offering sweets, thereby bringing them into danger. “Here, kids, stand by this target and have a sweet.”
    As they view it, US soldiers use children as shields and are therefore complicit in their deaths.

  49. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Dmac wrote, “Skate –
    Thank you for proving my point.”
    Which would be???

  50. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    @ Penny,
    Yup, Media Matters is dedicated to correcting conservative misinformation. You are still below their radar, though, in spite of your apparent approval of conservative misinformation. The Media Matters quote I provided when to the heart of the matter of how the Weekly Standard is a biased source and of how conservatives have a selective appreciation of facts. Embarrassing as they are to conservatives, I have yet to see any of the Media Matters corrections to conservative misinformation be shown to be anything but true.
    Shame on me? Shame on **you** for your demonstrably false assertion that I pulled the 100,000 number of deaths from my a**. You still have not acknowledged your culpability for this bit of offensive and false rhetoric.

  51. Jim S Avatar
    Jim S

    Skate,
    While I don’t care for many of those who are criticizing you they are right about the utter foolishness of citing the 100,000 number this long after it has been pretty much debunked.
    penny,
    The Weekly Standard is a completely worthless excuse for factual news. No matter how accurate a fact might be, if it proves anything negative about a Republican it won’t see publication in the WS. The same applies if it simply doesn’t support a claim made by a Republican. It might as well have “An RNC Publication” as its subtitle. The same can be said for most of the links you used. Nothing but blind partisanship for the most part. Notice I do not say ALL of them.
    As far as the disgusting (What an understatement, I know.) people who did this thing, it is still important to understand many things about them and those who recruited them to do it. Why? How the heck else do you try to head it off? Think of the suicide bombers as Zarqawi’s ammunition in this war. If you understand how he can recruit them and do SOMETHING to dry up his supply of ammunition haven’t you made a major step forward?
    Also, didn’t anyone else catch the news that an Islamist web site was posting denials by Al-Quaeda In Iraq that they were responsible? Given that this just happens to be the most blatant and disgusting instance of children being murdered in one of their attacks who do they think will believe them?

  52. penny Avatar
    penny

    Well Jim S, when debunking the ridiculous 100,000 civilian body count, Slate, not exactly a Repulican publication, and AP join with the Weekly Standard in the debunking. The WS article is well documented. And, sorry, I’ve seen the WS take on Bush for immigration reform, or lack thereof, and other things that aren’t the party line.
    How many damn sources does this kid need to give it up?

  53. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    Try the non-partisan but conservative British magazine, the Economist. They studied the statistical methodology used in the study by that far leftist organization, Johns Hopkins University.
    http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3352814
    They don’t confirm the 98,000 number is correct, but they don’t debunk the study either.
    The only people I see debunking the study are those that don’t gain by it.

  54. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Who is this kid you speak of Penny?
    For that matter, you might try to read my posts c a r e f u l l y. If you did you’d note that I have n e v e r insisted that the 100,000 deaths figure from the Lancet study is guaranteed to be perfect. I have only insisted, with complete accuracy, that you made an outrageous and false statement when you insisted that I had pulled it out of my a**. Your statement was and is offensive and you have yet to acknowledge your outrageous fallacy.
    Nor have I seen y o u admit how many people y o u think have died in the war in Iraq. The AP estimate you cited said in its **second sentence** “The count is still fragmentary, and the complete toll – if it is ever tallied – is sure to be significantly higher.” And the conveniently low number of 4,000 you posted is **over two years old**. (Its now July of 2005, just for your records.)

  55. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    “Why does any responsible news organization try to dignify these people with labels like “insurgent,” as if they have a cause and a purpose other than murder?”
    So you really think they have no purpose other than murder? not the creation of a hard-line islamist state? not the removal of the American forces from Iraq?

  56. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    “Oh, Eileen by any other name.” Excuse me, Skate?

  57. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Eileen wrote, “Oh, Eileen by any other name.” Excuse me, Skate?”
    It was a comment on the type of post, not that that “penny” and “Eileen” are the same poster. Of course, none of us (I assume) know for certain if anyone here is using more than one handle. It could be just you and me arguing with each-other, Eileen!

  58. chris Avatar
    chris

    I get a little tired of the right trying to use horrible events like this to justify Bush’s invasion and U.S. “morality”. Penny, Maureen, and Eileen, “The Rightwing police” of this site always seem to be harping on about that 100,000 number. They never consider people who have died indirectly as a result of the invasion. The U.N. does. But we already know how you three feel about that institution from previous posts. Then you guys throw up the usual “Islam is a violent religion” stuff. It gets a bit old. I assume you have all been watching plenty of Faux and making sure you have your talking points down. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Until your audience forgets what the fuck you were on about in the first place.

  59. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Sure, Chris, like you and those moonbats chanting over and over again that islam is peace. Peace, my ass. I get a little tired of the left trying to use horrible events like this to blame Bush’s invasion to condone and excuse the murdering gutblowers. It gets a bit old listening to this leftist pig slop.

  60. John Avatar
    John

    Well, just in case you missed it, Molly Ivins apologized in her column earlier this week for citing the 100,000 Iraqi civillian death figure she now admits is inaccurate. Since Molly does not quite fall into the George W. Bush-loving ultra right wing conservative camp, those who continue to cite the 100,000 number probably should spend a few minutes sending Ms. Ivins a e-mail note accusing her of being assimilated by the Borg…

  61. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    So, Kat, remind us once again why we are in Iraq in the first place. Is it because Iraq was involved in 9/11 or the WMDs the possessed? Oh, I forgot, neither! Iraq wasn’t involved in 9/11, didn’t have WMDs and was probably the only terrorist-free nation in the region!
    Oh, sure, Saddam was a murdering bastard but that wasn’t the reason Bush sent nearly two thousand Americans to their deaths–and that is just the number of americans who died in Iraq, not the total number who died later from their injuries.
    “Peace, my ass”
    Well those are two things I don’t want to have to think about associated with your name–even if one is a homophone. What is it with you and penny and a**es?

  62. chris Avatar
    chris

    Hey Kat, I’m agnostic. I wouldn’t have anything to do with any of it. Its religious fanatics on both sides that I worry about. Anti Islam remarks only serve to exacerbate an already terrible situation. The devil “metaphorically speaking” probably loves both the hate you guys throw out as much as he loves the idiotic suicide bomber who blows people innocent people up. Painting everyone with a broadbrush as you have just attempted to do is not doing “Gods” work.

  63. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Sorry to ruin your smug grin, John, but it is crow eating time for you. Molly Ivins didn’t for miscounting the current Iraqi war dead. She apologized for undercounting the number of possible deaths caused by Saddam over 24 years!
    She actually had based hear earlier article’s Iraqi war death estimate on conservative figures of 20,000. She mentioned that the high estimate is 100,000 but never said that that estimate is wrong, only that it is the high estimate.
    RTFA.
    So, John, how many people do **you** think have died in the war?

  64. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Wingnuts lie again!!!! What is with wingnuts and their inability to tell the truth? In no point does Molly Ivins apologize for citing the 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths – she rightly apologized for being so ignorant as to have thought that Saddam killed only 20,000 of his own people.

  65. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    And what is it with you and chris, Skate?
    First, in a discussion I’m not even in, you besmirch my name – as well as Penny’s – via innuendo related to some “type of post”. Mind you, this is true even though I have never commented here or elsewhere regarding the number of deaths in Iraq, to whom they are attributable, said boo about the [discredited] Lancet report, etc..
    Then, tee hee, you might be arguing with me ‘anyway’??! An apology is in order, to both Penny and myself. Where do you get off being so cavalier with your accusations? Learn some manners. I read your testosterone all over the threads today, but sorry, you’re out of bounds. BTW, how old ARE you, nospam? Talk about posting under ‘handles’!
    And you, chris? You’re also free and easy with the attempted across the board, female slander. Got right on that Skate bandwagon, eh?, even though I hadn’t even commented on this thread before reading Skate’s attempted slander!!! I repeat my words to you as stated to Skate re the 100k number. You are totally *wrong* regarding my commentary, among ***many*** other things. I don’t even get “faux” on cable. I have never uttered scat about the U.N. around here, either. Your blanket assumptions are truly astonishing. You ALSO owe me an apology.
    You guys need to Grow Up and show some respect. If you can’t do that, then just go home.

  66. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Eileen wrote, “First, in a discussion I’m not even in, you besmirch my name – as well as Penny’s – via innuendo related to some “type of post”.”
    “An apology is in order, to both Penny and myself.”
    Well, Elieen, in order to merit an apology based on my comparing penny’s post to you, it would have to be an **offensive** comparison. Are you saying that you are offended by penny’s post?
    The one who owes an apology is penny for outrageously suggesting falsely and maliciously that I pulled the Lancet study’s 100,000 Iraqi war deaths figure “out of [my] ass”.
    “Where do you get off being so cavalier with your accusations?”
    You’ll need to be more specific. Which accusation am I being cavalier about? While my rhetoric has been forceful, though I think accurate and on point, I haven’t accused any one of pulling figures out of their a**, unlike penny.
    “how old [am] I?”
    Why? Are you ageist? I don’t really care how old **you** are, I’m only interested in whether your arguments make sense. So far, I’d say they don’t, no matter how old you may or may not be.
    “You guys need to Grow Up and show some respect. If you can’t do that, then just go home.”
    Eileen, and you say you are offended by being compared to penny, who said “You need to shut up and listen, cut the stupid string of mindless mantras, learn some critical thinking skills and start respecting facts.”
    Don’t forget “War is Peace” “Truth is Fiction” and “Eileen is Right”

  67. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    STFU Eileen, you’ve done more personal slandering than most here – how many people have you called terrorists? terrorist-sympathizers? anti-semitic? how many times have you threatened to alert the CIA about posters? how many times have tried to question people’s rights to speak on any given topic? And now you feel respect should be shown you? Here’s the respect you deserve – shut the fuck up.

  68. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    “Are you saying that you are offended by penny’s post?”
    Of course not. As already stated, I was offended by your derogatory, inaccurate innuendo.
    “The one who owes an apology is penny for outrageously suggesting falsely and maliciously that I pulled the Lancet study’s 100,000 Iraqi war deaths figure “out of [my] ass”.”
    I’m not here to debate that issue to begin with, remember? I’d said Jack Shit before you mentioned me in a derogatory fashion. Take some responsibility for your actions toward ME.
    “I’m only interested in whether your arguments make sense. So far, I’d say they don’t, no matter how old you may or may not be.” Oh really, even when we weren’t arguing to begin with and I hadn’t commented on the thread at all? Bahhhh!
    “Eileen is right.” Not always, by any means.
    But this time, yes.
    An apology is in order. Whatever your age, you dished out a bunch of gratuitous, testosterone laced shit and you owe me an apology. Period.
    BYW. Hats off to Penny, Maureen, Kat, and all the Real Men around here who ALSO speak out against Islamofascism. Sweet night.

  69. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    YOU STFU franky boy. I have done less slandering around here in 8 months than you’ve done in 5 minutes.
    “how many people have you called terrorists? terrorist-sympathizers? anti-semitic?” You and Faramin *alone* earned that distinction.
    CIA. Faramin earned *that* distinction. As I’ve said before, NO REGRETS. None whatsoever!!!
    YOU and Faramin are terrorist scumbags. And you can KMA, little one.

  70. chris Avatar
    chris

    Eileen your lovely! Chris the sexist.

  71. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    @ Franky,
    Well, you have gone further than I think prudent but I do thank you for remembering Eileen’s previous rants against others and how they contradict her righteous sense of indignation regarding perceived insults to her.
    BTW,
    Eileen seems to have an excellent sense of “Hey! Look over there!” indignation designed to distract posters from the real issues being discussed.
    Say, Eileen, what is this “attempted slander” I have perpetrated on you? Is comparing you to penny a slander? You must really be offended by penny’s comments to consider such a comparison a slander!
    You say “As already stated, I was offended by your derogatory, inaccurate innuendo.”
    Actually, I don’t think you have ever articulated this alleged innuendo! Is comparing you to penny a derogatory, inaccurate innuendo? Boy, how you would have to hate penny to feel that way…
    “Take some responsibility for your actions toward ME.”
    I yes, I forgot, this is all about YOU, YOU, YOU. That really does explain a lot. Once again, you’ll have to articulate these alleged actions which you continually allude to but fail to mention!
    “An apology is in order. Whatever your age, you dished out a bunch of gratuitous, testosterone laced shit and you owe me an apology. Period.”
    Eileen, I’m amused that you assume I am male! I don’t assume you are female! Once again, it is time for you to stop making up accusations! I’m amused and instructed by what seems like a calculated sense of indignation designed to obfuscate! A classic rhetorical trick. Your methods are most entertaining, even if completely devoid of substance!
    Put up or shut up! What is the specific insult you received from me. I compared penny’s post to you and joked that under all of the handles it could be just you and me! You got nothin’!
    …and as for my “nospam” email address, well, I don’t wish to be a potential victim for some unhinged person who tends to go on erratic, angry rants. I’m curious as to why **you** were looking it up?
    And finally, (from Eileen directed at franky)
    “YOU and Faramin are terrorist scumbags.”
    Wow! And you have real nerve calling franky and demanding an apology for me comparing you to penny! You are **priceless** and entirely hypocritical. Too funny :-)

  72. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    “Eileen seems to have an excellent sense of “Hey! Look over there!” indignation designed to distract posters from the real issues being discussed.”
    Laughing… Particularly as I hadn’t commented on the thread to begin with. Not bothering to read the rest.
    TESTOSTERONE rules for little men.
    Night all.

  73. chris Avatar
    chris

    Eileen with all your talk about female slander and testosterone I’d say you have some issues to deal with in regards to real men. Real men work for peace and love. I have to admit I am stunned by the amount of women these days that advocate for war. Thats not a sexist remark thats just what I feel I see. I personally think it has to do with the Christian faith which has rallied around Bush. Its as dangerous as the radical interpretation of Islam when you get right down to all the killing thats taking place. As Skate argued earlier killing is killing and dead is dead. What difference does the moral argument make to a dead person?

  74. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Eileen wrote, “Not bothering to read the rest.”
    Probably better that way. You were losing big time. Better to walk away rather than suffer the horrible embarrassment of having to justify your empty indignation…
    Does that seem to flame-ee? Well, I don’t think it is possible to give a reasoned response to Eileen and actually get one back. I try to respond, within reasonable limits, in kind to people’s posts.
    Cheers to rational and thoughtful discussions and boo to knee jerk rhetoric. Of course, that doesn’t mean I don’t still have a little righteous indignation for penny, of course…

  75. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    You know, chris, I wasn’t even in this ‘debate’ to begin with. And even though you haven’t yet apologized for your blanket slander of all four of us women, now you are speaking kindly…and I appreciate that. I will try to answer, although it’s somewhat late here (11 p.m.) and I’m really tired due to…
    We ‘women’ are begging for love!!! We ABHOR WAR!!!!
    And we particularly ABHOR this jihadist war. I believe the women in this forum (AS WELL AS SOME MEN here) are advocating knowledge. Understand the scope of Sharia law! Beware what we’re up against! Do not hide and pretend it doesn’t exist. We have an UNWANTED WAR on our hands!
    Even though we don’t want to, we are obligated to fight it: Because, BY GOD AND BY ALLAH WE WILL NOT BECOME DHIMMIS!!!
    Period, chris. Tired… I’ll hope your apology for your unkind words to me and the other ladies will follow in due course.
    Sweet night.

  76. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Skate,
    Well if Jeff decides to ban me for the language I can’t really complain – but I’m just tired of the constant racism.
    I think that a lot of people ignore them feeling that to even argue with them is to lower themselves and to some extent I’m sympatheitic to that view. However, I think too many times not challenging their racism can be seen as acceptance, as if these views are tolerated. After all as Burke said “The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.” That’s clearly a call to confront, not ignore, these racists.

  77. chris Avatar
    chris

    Eileen, no apology from me. Sorry. I lumped you in with the other “ladies” due to the fact you all were arguing on an earlier thread in regards to the Iraq body count(which to me is neither here nor there). As I said before ” dead is dead”. The moral argument is a ridiculous one. I advise you to go to Wikipedias page on the Iraq body count. Although the info there only relates on deaths up till October 2004. There is a new study being released on July 19,2005 by an Oxford University group that will settle this debate for us. Then you guys don’t have to keep bringing this shit up. 25,000 or 100,000. It was still an unjust war. Keep telling yourself otherwise.

  78. chris Avatar
    chris

    One thing more. Iraq has 29 million people. http://www.iraqbodycount.com estimates around 25,000 death due to the war. These are recorded deaths. The data coming out this next week is culled from 10,000 news reports. What about unreported deaths? Why does the U.S. military refuse to release thier data? Of course they know how many they have killed. The 100,000 number is an estimate based upon deaths caused by the effects of war. Believe me 100,000 seems realistic considering the length of the war, the size of the overall population and the size of the country. Now to think only 25,000 have died that seems a ridiculous figure.

  79. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Darn, Eileen, you can’t even tell the truth about stopping for the night! :-)
    As for whatever you seem to think chris said, Eileen, it would have to be knowingly and demonstrably **false** to be slanderous ;->
    @Franky,
    I think I understand. It is quite a challenge to tolerate the intollerant. I think you are right about the name calling. It really should not be acceptable. I recall being accused of being a terrorist right here in one of these forums!!! A grave and serious libel against me–later grudgingly and insolently recanted. I don’t recall who made those offensive remarks, but I do remember someone (hmmm, oh I don’t know…could it be **Eileen**????) calling you a terrorist just today! So if I had to hazard a guess…
    Haphazardly shouting “terrorist” at everybody one disagrees with is worse than McCarthyism. It is a despicable slander and it dilutes the true nature of terrorism.

  80. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Chris,
    I have never commented on the war dead numbers in ANY way, shape or form!!!!!!!! If you INSIST on SLANDER, THEN PROVE YOUR WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prove it!
    I’ve lost all patience.

  81. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    And Skate?
    Nothing to you. You aren’t worth even a moment more.

  82. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Eileen, wrote “And Skate?
    Nothing to you. You aren’t worth even a moment more.”
    Good choice Eileen. Your empty indignation wasn’t working. Better to pretend to take the high ground than to look like you were losing on the merits :-)
    “If you INSIST on SLANDER, THEN PROVE YOUR WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prove it!”
    BTW, Eileen, you sure like proof when you ask it of others! So when were you planning on proving **your** IMHO unequivocal slander that franky is in fact a terrorist? Lets rewind the tape and take a look, shall we? “YOU [franky] and Faramin are terrorist scumbags.”
    In my opinion, in this day and age stating unequivocally that someone is a terrorist knowingly and falsely could be an actionable case for a libel suit, especially in a red state like Utah or Idaho where such a defamatory accusation would be extremely damaging to ones character. That, IMO, is **real slander**–the kind that can get you sued in court for real damages, unlike the pretend and empty indignation you, Eileen, jump up and down over, such as being compared to penny, a comparison to whom would have to be, among other things, defamatory to your character to be slanderous.
    BTW, didn’t you say you were going to bed?

  83. Jesse Avatar
    Jesse

    Jeff, might be time to shut this thread down… it stopped being useful long ago.

  84. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    I am in complete agreement with Jesse.

  85. John Avatar
    John

    If you’re going to make the 100,000 claim, run the numbers — the war in Iraq from its initial point in March of 2003 until now is a little over 800 days old. If you divide 100,000 that number by that number, you’d get an average civillian death count of 125 people a day.
    That number wouldn’t be surprising for the actual two-week war period that ended on 4/9/03, and would likely be low on days of the most intense coflicts. And the total has been reached a couple of times during the war, thanks to a series of car bomb blasts. But that’s still high for an every day total, despite some of the media reports.
    Add to that the fact that the 100,000 number didn’t come out this year, but has been bandied about in certain sections of the media and the political world since the summer and early fall of 2003, which was just 100 to 150 days after the start of the fighting. Using that time frame, the death toll for Iraqi civillians would have to have been between 750 and 1,000 per day when the 100,000 number had its coming-out party, which is a true jump off into fantasyland.
    My best guess would be when you include all the insurgent attacks in the 800-plus days since March of 2003, a death count of about 40 a day would be a reasonable estimate, which would oome out to about 32,000 deaths since the war began. Nothing to be proud of, but also nowhere near the figure the anti-Iraq war folks have been peddling for the last 650 days or so.

  86. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    Jesse and Mike: These late night personal rants seem to take hold on topic threads involving violent happenings. The fault is not in the thread, and not JJ’s responsibility, it seems to result from some need for confrontation verbally, that may well be a substitute for other forms of confrontation.
    On the topic:
    On Winds of Change there is a Friday Hate Watch with one (among other) items that is worth reviewing as a basis for rationalizing deaths of children: ‘The head of the London Center for Islamic History said that there are no such things as civilians in Islam and that with the London bombings, Al-Qaeda “rubbed the noses of the world’s eight most powerful countries in the mud.”
    See: http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007167.php
    With this kind of reasoning, could some one live with killing children? I think that increasing voices of reason and fellowship may be needed to quell these influences.

  87. pedro Avatar
    pedro

    These are questions with answers. We may not like the answers. We may find the answers hard to believe. Yet, if we neglect or fail to answer the questions, we will never solve the problem. The answers to BuzzMachine’s questions are:
    Why does any responsible news organization try to dignify these people with labels like “insurgent,” as if they have a cause and a purpose other than murder? Because news organizations are on the side of the terrorists; they want the terrorists to win; they believe in the cause of the terrorist; they hate the United States of America.
    Why doesn’t every national and religious leader in the Arab world condemn these criminals for what they are? Because Arab leaders want the terrorists to win; because if they condemned these terrorists then they might have to cut back on the Jew killing; because they do NOT consider them to be criminal. A moderate Muslim is one who believes we infidel should have a little anaesthetic before the beheading.
    Why aren’t other nations joining the fight to rid Iraq of this evil? Because other nations don’t have to step up to the plate when the USA will do the heavy lifting for them; like the f’ing French, they can make nice with the terrorists on the one hand while hoping we can keep a lid on them with the other.
    Grow up. Face facts. Identify the enemy. Fight evil.

  88. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Right on, pedro!! This is a good article from Canada’s National Post on line.:
    {We have reached a turning-point in the relations between the Muslim community and the rest of us, and it is time for the moderates to show real leadership. That is why I want to end with the words of British Labour MP Shahid Malik, who said yesterday: “The challenge is straightforward — that those voices that we have tolerated will no longer be tolerated, whether they be on the streets, in the schools, in the youth clubs, in the mosque, in a corner, in a house.
    We need to go beyond condemning. We need to confront.” Well said, Shahid; and it is time for the imams to follow.}
    http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=3e991980-b3fa-4b3a-a(no space)1ec-c0bd5f4980d6&page=2

  89. chris Avatar
    chris

    Let me tie Pedro and Kat into Johns logic here. First off John I say deaths as attributed to the war. Not necessarily killed in combat and counted by any organization. Check previous world history to understand how this works. Russia lost at least 10 million soldiers in WWII but 28 million Russians as a whole are thought to have died. Now Kat and Pedro if all Muslims were horrible murderers as you two psychos would have us believe then France with a population of 61 million of which 7% are Muslim ,(www.ciafactbook)July 2005, should have at least 5 million Muslims killing at least one person a day thereby making the country void of other religions pretty much within 19 days. Now London, England which has around 15 million people of which at least 1 million are of Arab descent (including over 100,000 Iraqi who have lived there peacefully for years) should technically last about 15 days. Tongue firmly in cheek for all of this by the way. So I would beg to differ on your ridiculous lumping in of all Arabs being bad arabs. Study the root causes of terrorism to know why idiots blow themselves up. Your vitriol fuels more terrorism. It doesn’t help. Thats why bombers will keep bombing because loud mouth fools like yourself and others say “Bring it on”. This war should have been fought covertly from the get go with strong allied support. We are in bad standing worldwide due to boisterous bellicose statements like the ones you consistently make. That goes double for you Kat. If you want to support our troops then STFU.

  90. Greg Avatar
    Greg

    Bingo. Got a twofer. Root cause and a moral equivalence apologist.
    Yep, Greg, since we haven’t solved anger in some young men here – like a government can engineer a childhood free of numbskulled or abusive parents? – we should suspend or soften our judgement of the homicidal angry in Iraq. Is that what you are saying?
    What? how is pointing out that we don’t know how to deal with these murderers apologizing for them? That’s some fucked up logic you got there.
    I was merely pointing out that since we have had limited success here at home in preventing acts by depraved madmen – some would argue that our criminal justice system actually causes some of it – that we shouldn’t bee too surprised if we can’t prevent such acts abroad.
    Plus, your way of doing things (kill em all, let God sort ’em out, forget about the innocents, because if they’re muslim, then they can’t be innocent) won’t solve anything. While you’ll kill a few of the terrorists, you’ll also kill a few civilians, which will make their countrymen even madder, which in turn makes terrorism justifiable to them.
    We can’t fight Islamic fundamentalist terrorism alone, we need the help of our Muslim friends. If you turn them all into enemies, what does that solve?

  91. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Victor David Hanson has some good words for nutbars like you.: BTW I don’t think all Arabs are terrorists–I think all terrorists these days are muslims. Not Arabs because the fourth nutbar in London had a name like Lindsey Germaine. The root cause of terrorism is leftism and islamism.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200507150804.asp
    These interior splits largely explain why creepy killers from the Dark Ages, parasitic on the West from their weapons to communications, are still plaguing us four years after their initial surprise attack.
    “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars/But in ourselves, that we are underlings.”

  92. Jersey Exile Avatar
    Jersey Exile

    Why aren’t other nations joining the fight to rid Iraq of this evil? Because other nations don’t have to step up to the plate when the USA will do the heavy lifting for them; like the f’ing French, they can make nice with the terrorists on the one hand while hoping we can keep a lid on them with the other.
    Oh, please. The French have done more to combat actual terrorism than the CIA, FBI, and the Pentagon combined (who rather than stopping terrorists seem content with making more of them).
    Aside from the fact that our allies tend to get bombed at home or kidnapped abroad for their participation in our “Coalition of the Willing,” did it occur to any of you that the rest of the civilized world might like to see us taken down a peg or two? That they’re more than happy to watch the Almighty United States flounder helplessly in this quagmire of our own making?
    We ignored their counsel in our headlong rush to inavde Iraq, shoved aside diplomacy and the rule of international law with triumphalist declarations of our own national uber-superiority that would have made Nietzsche proud, and now Mr. Jarvis et al. are actually SHOCKED to learn that no one wants to eat the other half of the shit sandwich we’ve found ourselves forced to choke down?
    Yeah, that’s a real head-scratcher.

  93. chris Avatar
    chris

    Kat you wrote “the root cause of terrorism is leftism and islamism”. Can you seem more idiotic? I don’t know. I guess us lefties have always been the problem. Can you say Bastille day, American revolution, Vietnam, equal rights for women and blacks, global warming, J.Edgar Hoovers witch hunts? Man us lefties have always been so wrong. When will we learn to quit using our brains and seeking peaceful solutions and just go along with the wingnuts destructive mindset? And Kat you’ve yet to address my earlier post in regards to Muslims in France and the London. Why aren’t attacks happening all the time? Because its only a few idiots. Under your logic because Timothy McVeigh was white Christian and a terrorist, all Christians must advocate what he did?

  94. penny Avatar
    penny

    I was merely pointing out that since we have had limited success here at home in preventing acts by depraved madmen
    Limited? What big event here has happened since 911? That’s what really counts, isn’t it? How many attacks have been prevented? You don’t know unless you work for intelligence.
    we need the help of our Muslim friends
    Like the Saudis,the Iranians, the Syrians and the Palestinians? See any mass demonstrations renouncing the terrorists by the “Arab Street”? Oh, and don’t forget the ever so friendly immams.
    Sorry, Greg, you can sit around with your thumbs in your ears playing the root cause and moral equivalency game, but the harsh reality is that nations don’t have friends. People do. Nations take care of their own interests first, as they should. Nothing immoral in that. History 101.
    “Islam has bloody borders”……Bernard Lewis
    (If his name escapes you, I’m not surprised.)

  95. Lizzie Avatar
    Lizzie

    How can some of you refuse to call the deliberate targeting and bloody murder of a group of children just what it is – evil? I know that some of you find it hard to make distinctions between good and evil (and you sneer at those of us who do as unsophisticated) but this – there are no other ways to describe it. Blowing little kids to pieces? Little kids who were deliberately chosen as targets? What else is that but evil?

  96. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Dear Kat, you wrote, and seemingly endorsed “Victor David Hanson has some good words for nutbars like you.: BTW I don’t think all Arabs are terrorists–I think all terrorists these days are muslims. Not Arabs because the fourth nutbar in London had a name like Lindsey Germaine. The root cause of terrorism is leftism and islamism.”
    You really have me scratching my head. Do you endorse the quote you just wrote? Do you really think all terrorists are muslims? All is a a very big word and I think the dead from all of the IRA bombings would be pretty surprised they weren’t killed by terrorists…
    Oh, and the root cause of terrorism is “leftism and islamism” Fundamental Islam is the **opposite** leftism and is a close cousin to theocratic neo-conservatism.
    The quote you provided is factually wrong and bigoted. I hope you choose to distance yourself from it and that you quoted it as an example of something you don’t believe…

  97. chris Avatar
    chris

    Lizzie, none of us on the left condone the barbaric act that this thread evolved from. Jeff Jarvis and others here seem to forget how we got to this point. The debates here often evolve into the root causes with those on the right advocating more violent action and those of us on the left advocating either stealth or peace. War is horrific and its a shame it has gotten to this point. Our foreign policy is the real problem. If five years from now WWIII is in full swing and it goes nuclear what will you be saying then?

  98. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    What about muslim foreign policy–is that not a bigger problem??
    You lefties are the problem because you asskiss, coddle, and appease. You have allowed multiculturalism to be a safe haven for murderers or you scream racist bigot–you won’r admit islam is the root cause of terrorism worldwide—every country on earth has islamic terrorists–and you condone because you use the Crusades, the IRA, and Timothy McVeigh to excuse the scum. You likely condone the beheadings because in the past the French used the guillotine. You are no better than the people who blew up those kids or the terrorists in London. You help them. This foreign policy grievance that they don’t like is just so much horseshit–an excuse to murder innocents in the name of islam. They can kiss my white ass.
    Even the Guardian sees a flicker of reality:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1528953,00.html
    {First, the relatively poor socioeconomic position of most British Muslims has little to do with Islamophobia or racism and a great deal to do with the fact that nearly two-thirds of British Muslims come from Pakistan and Bangladesh, often from these countries’ poor, rural areas. (Indian and Arab Muslims do better.) The starting point in terms of education, skills and traditional cultural attitudes is worse for most Muslims than it is for, say, the Hindu or Chinese minorities, both of which outperform white Britons. To expect Muslims to rise to the average level in terms of education and jobs within a generation or two is not realistic, although progress is being made.
    Second, the economic and political failure of many Muslim states – and subsequent western interventions – poses a challenge to all Muslims living in the west. But the crude “war against Islam” rhetoric of many British Muslims is just a feelgood rallying cry. How often do Muslim leaders point out that Tony Blair favoured ground-troop intervention on behalf of European Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo? And as the Muslim peer Kishwer Falkner points out: “When Muslims are pressed to say what should have been done with a Taliban-run, al-Qaida-embracing Afghanistan, one is met with silence.” Finally, how often is it pointed out that many of Britain’s Shia Muslims welcomed the overthrow of Saddam, which has replaced secular dictatorship with Islamic democracy.
    Third, the terrorist threat that Britain faces comes overwhelmingly from British or foreign Muslims; it does not come from Welsh hill farmers or US investment bankers. So it follows that most terror-related investigations will focus on Muslim communities. This isn’t picking on Muslims; it is simply a fact of life.
    A more open acknowledgment of these three points could help to move Muslim debate beyond the paranoia that often seems to characterise it and send an important signal to the rest of Britain that Muslims have risen above their grievance culture. } AMEN.

  99. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    chris, lizzie, etc.:
    The shame is that sometimes basically decent people get involved in scoring points against each other when their motivation really is a desire to make really horrible things right again. Looking for root causes sometimes brings out differences among factions – and true, then produces a lot of hot air that gets in the way.
    We all deplore the criminal murders that were committed.
    In Beslan, where Chechnyan murderers at School #1 justified their crimes based on murders the Russian army had committed in Chechnya – Putin used the school massacre of 100’s of children and innocent civilians to prevent democratic elections of the governors of all the provinces of Russia. I think we can avoid letting cynicism result here from bloody murders of children.

  100. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Yes, we can justify any Muslim atrocity, can’t we , Ruth. You are a wonderful dhimmi, a champion of islamic terrorists….and you are guilty of the crimes they commit, because you excuse and condone them. You are like the lawyer telling a rape victim in the Netherlands that she deserved to get raped because of her mini skirt. {ìRachel Paul, from the Center for Gender Equality, told the daily newspaper ëDagbadetí that immigrants needed to be informed about sexual behavior in Norway.î In other words, ìFYI, guys; itís not okay to rape women here.îìattackers of non-Western origin were described in 65 % of all reported rapesî in the Norwegian capital. ..middle eastern muslims to be politically incorrect} But they don’t like the way they dress(foreign policy of attire) so it’s OK. And whites rape too, so it’s doubly OK.

  101. Jersey Exile Avatar
    Jersey Exile

    Kat,
    So how is the weather over in BizarroWorld?
    Funny, when I think of the Left I think of women’s rights, minority rights, freedom of expression, freedom of worship–all of those things that you and the Islamicists you profess to hate so much find so offensive. All of that multi-culti postmodernism has long since left mainstream academia, something you’d know if you actually kept up with university culture instead of getting your talking points about it from the likes of David Horowitz and Daniel Pipes.
    If you had been born in Saudi Arabia you’d have made the perfect jihadi. So full of your own moral rectitude, so ready to demonize the entire world as lapsed and full of evil. You see, Kat, that’s why they truly hate us (not you–you’re too much like them), because we dare hold out the possibility that mankind might be the agent of his own salvation, that the wisdom of the world isn’t to be found in old books written in dead languages by small-minded men but in the human potential itself. That the world, far from getting worse and worse, is actually becoming a better place, and will continue to do so as Mankind advances the frontiers of his knowledge.
    That thought terrifies you as much as it does them, doesn’t it?

  102. penny Avatar
    penny

    Putin used the school massacre of 100’s of children and innocent civilians to prevent to prevent democratic elections of the governors of all the provinces of Russia……..
    First of all, Ruth, Putin didn’t murder the kids. Your silly search for symmetry with your addendum of Putin’s political behavior isn’t equal to the evil that went into the hearts of those killers no matter what their grievances were.
    Maybe in your muddled way, Ruth, you didn’t mean to put a better spin on the killer’s actions and seek moral equivalence between the terrorists(their grievances) and Putin(his political capitalizing), but you sure come across as doing that.

  103. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Jersey–your brain has been fried by smoking too much crap while making peace signs and love bracelets in the park. You are hardly worth a reply–the left got rid of slavery–yeah, like I got rid of mosquitoes. The left condones islamic slavery because it is a part of their sick Dark Ages culture we should appreciate. When I criticize such practices in the 21st century, I am a bigot. Academia is stagnant with that leftist stench. You are having hallucinations if you think multi-culti postmodernism has long since left mainstream academia. You could not be more wrong. More crap courses are introduced each year. How else could a loser like Churchill have a job or an idiot like Noam Chompsky be so popular with lefties–he fed them pablum they liked. I’m not willing to see Balkanization of America occur as we strive to pander to terrorists. I’m not interested in a veil or headbanging for my great grandchildren. Only way to make peace with these maniacs is to join them. I’d rather be dead than islamic.

  104. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    Sorry to repeat myself, but such illustrations of the point have followed the post, again: “Looking for root causes sometimes brings out differences among factions – and true, then produces a lot of hot air that gets in the way.”
    Jersey Exile: Thanks for a bit of fresh air in the middle of a bunch of hatefulness, may I quote you; “That the world, far from getting worse and worse, is actually becoming a better place, and will continue to do so as Mankind advances the frontiers of his knowledge.”

  105. penny Avatar
    penny

    ….when I think of the Left I think of women’s rights, minority rights, freedom of expression, freedom of worship….
    For starters, the Bill of Rights/the Constitution gave us the freedom of religion(B of R) and expression(First Amendment). A fifth grader would know this.
    It was overwhelmingly Republicans in Congress in the 60’s that overrode the Dixiecrats in passing Civil Rights legislation. Lincoln was also a Rebulican.
    You snarky comments are perfectly matched with your poverty of facts and education again, Jersey.

  106. chris Avatar
    chris

    Damn what a fool I’ve been! All the while thinking JFK and LBJ deserved the credi for equal rights in the 60’s when it was Strom Thurmond all along! And I’m sure J Edgar Hoover was there in his bra and panties making sure that legislation was strictly enforced!

  107. penny Avatar
    penny

    Damn what a fool I’ve been
    And am. Got that right. You are too stupid to cut the snark and do some Googling.

  108. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Jersey Exile wrote, “You see, Kat, that’s why they truly hate us (not you–you’re too much like them), because we dare hold out the possibility that mankind might be the agent of his own salvation, that the wisdom of the world isn’t to be found in old books written in dead languages by small-minded men but in the human potential itself.”
    Thanks for saying this. It is people who can make the difference, not religion, pe se.
    And as for Kat, it is true that there were Republicans in congress in the 60’s, however the Republican party has been completely co-opted by the neocons and their personal gain-over-all philosophy. Today’s Republican party is not the party of Lincoln, rather it is a rabid party pandering to the proclivities of fundamentalist theocrats here in the US.
    As for the Bill of Rights you so proudly refer to Kat, it is the Republicans, again, who are leading the charge to remove as many of these rights as possible, except the right to bear arms. In fact, the Bush Administration thinks it has unilateral power to suspend the Bill of Rights at any time for anyone by declaring that person an “Enemy Combatant”–even if they are a US citizen and are “arrested” here in the US. I’m rather certain that is not what the framers of the constitution had in mind!

  109. penny Avatar
    penny

    Skate, you and Jersey Exile seem eerily interchangable. You seem to surface on command and to cover each other’s threads.
    Just observing…….

  110. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Since when have any of us, including Kat, “demonized the entire world as lapsed and full of evil”? Kat demonizes the terrorists as well she should. Those here who don’t, or who search for every possible way to find fault with the U.S. while acting as their apologists truly amaze me. Amazement is an understatement as the sanity of this approach seriously begs to be questioned.
    What part about sharia laws requiring Muslims to off the infidels or put us in dhimmi straightjackets Don’t You Get? Please tell me exactly HOW those laws are the fault of the U.S. or our foreign policy? Tell me why it is they predate – and murdering acts of jihadis – predate by centuries even the existence of this country, much less a couple of years in Iraq. How do you explain Darfur? If these terrorists are only concerned with western morals and American foreign policy, again, how do you explain Darfur?
    Tell me how it is, Jersey, that you see such sweetness and light in our world today, when innocents of ALL ages, cultures, religions and politics across the globe are being targeted for butchery and dhimmitude by Islamofascists in dazzling displays of insanity. And when the murderers are cheered on by other Muslims, doesn’t this even give you a *little* pause?
    Someone here mentioned there haven’t been all that many terrorist events (!), so therefore there aren’t that many terrorists to be concerned about?!
    I’m searching for a site which chronicles the history of bloody jihad, and all the killing of innocents along the way. If anyone can point me to a good source, I’d appreciate it. Meanwhile, I’m googling…

  111. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    From the front page of MuslimConverts.com regarding the necessity of headbanging five times daily:
    “Even those in combat (jihad) never miss their prayers. So how can any one make excuses?”
    I guess jihad is kinda business as usual commonplace these days.

  112. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    I don’t see anything in this overview of Jihad which suggests it’s origins lie in U.S. foreign policy or any topic raised by the moral equivalency brigade:
    “According to Islamic law, it is lawful to wage war against four types of enemy: infidels, apostates, rebels, and bandits. Although all four types of war are legitimate, only the first two count as jihad. The rules for jihad are different from those regulating other forms of warfare; they are also different when fought against apostates and infidels. Renegade Muslims must be ruthlessly excised and, according to most authorities, put to death if captured. Some say they may be pardoned if they recant; others maintain that God may forgive them in the next world, but no human authority can do so in this world. As regards non-Muslims, there is a distinction between those who follow what Islam recognizes as a revealed monotheistic religion and the rest. Idolaters and polytheists must be given a choice between conversion and death; the latter sentence may be commuted to enslavement. Recognized monotheistsówhich in practice meant Jews and Christiansócould be permitted to practice their own religions and run their own affairs, provided that they recognized the supremacy of the Muslim state and accepted certain restrictions.
    Jihad is a religious obligation. In offense, it is an obligation of the Muslim community as a wholeóthat is, it may be discharged by volunteers or professionals; in defense, it becomes an obligation of every able-bodied individual. ***This obligation is, in principle, unlimited and will continue, interrupted only by truces, until all the world either adopts the Muslim faith or submits to Muslim rule.*** Those who fight in the jihad qualify for rewards in both worldsóbooty in this one, paradise in the next. Those who are killed in the jihad are called martyrs.
    The historical jihad began in the lifetime of the Prophet with the wars of the Muslims against the pagans in Arabia. It continued with the wars of conquest, which brought first the Middle East and then much of south and central Asia, North Africa, and, at different periods, parts of southwestern and southeastern Europe under Muslim rule. The jihad against Christendom eventually provoked a Christian response in kind, known as the Crusades.”
    http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/mil/html/mh_026100_jihad.htm

  113. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Kat wrote, “Skate, you and Jersey Exile seem eerily interchangable. You seem to surface on command and to cover each other’s threads. Just observing…….”
    Kat, it is unfortunate that rational though is so alien to you that when you see it consistently presented you have to assume it is the work of a single person.
    As for Eileen, shouldn’t you be apologizing for what IMO was pure slander when you accused franky of being a terrorist? And no, I won’t drop it. You throw around virtual Molotov cocktails around without regard for truth and at some point you need to take responsibility for it and apologize to the people you have, IMO, deliberately and maliciously slandered.

  114. Peter Avatar
    Peter

    Lol I knew it was just a matter of time before Kat “Coulter” joined the melee. Welcome aboard, this thread has been missing your, um, interesting viewpoints…

  115. chris Avatar
    chris

    Eileen you and Kat have some twisted shit going on in your own heads in regards to Jihad. You guys are the reason these idiots do hate us. You are constantly for obviously religious reasons trying to pit all Muslims vs us. There are millions of peaceful muslims and arabs who do not take the Koran literally. I asked earlier why the millions in Europe dont constantly kill westerners and you guys seem to have drawn a blank on that one. You know a beautiful Pakistani girl by the name of Shahara Islam was killed on the Tavistok square London bus. Does she deserve your horrible thoughts? She was sweet and peaceful. She never hurt a soul. She died because of a fanatic. What you guys spew here sounds fanatical to me. You are calling for killing and you rationalize it with morality. Its a paradox you know? Penny I did Google the Equal Rights Act of 1964 and heres a link to the factual info. http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/39.html
    And by the way you were wrong. Repukes did thier best to put that one down but they had to go with the flow in the end.
    And Eileen as far as Darfur goes once again its about land. Westerners in thier land specifically are the root cause.It was a land dispute that has turned into an ethnic one. Try this very informative link.
    http://hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/darfur0105/2.htm#_Toc94084697
    Its sad they way you guys keep trying to paint everyone on the left with the same brush. Your vitriol speaks louder than your words. And the fact that your so easy to piss off screams volumes too. Now I cordially invite you to spew some more venom. Love always, Chris

  116. chris Avatar
    chris

    Oh and as far as Sharia faith goes. Sufis, followed by Sunnis would be the least fanatical. Shia, who incidentally, Bush just put in place in Iraq, are considered most fanatical. A bit paradoxical isn’t it? But hey he’s your boy so he must know what hes doing.

  117. Dak Avatar
    Dak

    Greg (at 12:07pm) wrote:
    “Plus, your way of doing things (kill em all, let God sort ’em out, forget about the innocents, because if they’re muslim, then they can’t be innocent) won’t solve anything.”
    I thought ….”huh?” Where have I heard that before? Seems Greg twisted it, to make it seem as something being done against muslims.
    “because if they’re infidels, then they can’t be innocent”
    Isn’t THAT really the ISLAMIC mantra?

  118. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    {Kat wrote, “Skate, you and Jersey Exile seem eerily interchangable. You seem to surface on command and to cover each other’s threads. Just observing…….”
    Kat, it is unfortunate that rational though is so alien to you that when you see it consistently presented you have to assume it is the work of a single person.
    Posted by Skate at July 15, 2005 08:24 PM}
    You tuly are a raving lunatic or you can’t read English and your translator is doing a piss poor job.
    {As for the Bill of Rights you so proudly refer to Kat,} Again, you raving lunatic, I never referred to the Bill of Rights–fire your translator–obviously spent too much time reading the koran and not learning English.
    You can’t win an argument against buttholes. Just pat them on the head, like the obedient puppies they are, and walk away. If they come back and argue further, just tell them to stand still for a moment. Go and fetch your Clue Bat and tenderize a head or two. Hopefully some sense can be beaten into a vacuum.

  119. chris Avatar
    chris

    Nice diatribe Kat. Loud and obnxious as usual. Now refute my points above.

  120. penny Avatar
    penny

    Kat, the little nitwit has us confused. It’s kinda fun to watch him unravel. He’s got so much of his bs to track that who said what has become as irrelevant as his dribble.

  121. chris Avatar
    chris

    Eh, I’d say you guys were plenty confused before any of us made you that way.

  122. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Chris–I was too busy to respond to your Europe query. Are you really so naive as to not realize the huge muslim problems in every country in Europe? Do you live in a cave?
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5239
    {ìWe will replace the Bible with the KoranÖ Christians have to learn that they cannot do this to Islam. We will not allow our brothers to be colonialised. If they try it, Britain will turn into Bosnia.î†}
    {ìMy own feeling is that what will happen in the British society – I am waiting to see whether it will happen in the U.S. – is Muslim societies will emerge within Western countries where they will develop their own patterns of social sharia [Islamic law]. In Britain today, where Islam controls the inner cities, we have major social exclusion and the development of sharia. We have had churches burned, Christians attacked and a mission center destroyed. The media has deliberately kept everything off the air.î }
    {On the other side of the Channel, where five million Muslims live and create one-third of all newborn ìFrenchî babies, an early campaign of Islamic terror was initiated by a Tunisian named Fouad Salah, who was convicted in 1992 of setting off bombs that killed thirteen Frenchmen in terrorist campaign during 1985-86. He told the judge:
    ìI do not renounce my fight against the WestÖ We Muslims should kill every last one of you.î}
    {ìDo not permit your children to follow the example of the French. They should comport themselves in a totally different manner than the French. Here in France we have to impose ourselves, and impose Islam.î† }
    Just consult the pages of history to find out how the Muslim warriors waged holy wars against Europe for 400 years to cut down half its population, how the Mujahedeen destroyed the Egyptian and Iranian cultures without the slightest provocation from these lands. India suffered terrible destruction from the Muslim booty hunters and is still called by them as ” Dar ul Harb”.
    http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583Islam Uber Alles
    {“The Europeans were once our slaves; today it is the Muslims. This must change. We must drive the unbelievers into deepest hell. We must stick together and hold our peace until the time comes. You can’t see anything yet, but everything is being prepared in secret. You must hold yourself in readiness for the right moment. We must exploit democracy for our cause. We must cover Europe with mosques and schools.”}
    Anyways, there are terrorists in every european country just waiting like parasites.

  123. Dak Avatar
    Dak

    Not long ago, Kat, you put up something with 20 statements for terrorist supporters…I don’t remember where you said you got it from. The 12th one was quite thought provoking in that it could perhaps explain why Islam doesn’t issue fatwahs on terrorists.
    12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, when in truth, Islam hijacked the terrorists.
    And 13 could be the reason for some of the comments here.
    13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for sympathy and tolerance towards Muslims in America who are portrayed as mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.
    Perhaps the duty of moderate Muslims is to assimilate patiently and gain trust, and be the voters that someday get Muslims posturing as moderate elected to office.

  124. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Eileen–this site chronicles the history of jihad including the Armenian genocide and the 4 million Hindus and Buddhists slaughtered by the religion of peace,
    http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/timelineindex.htm

  125. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Thanks, Kat. Headed there soon..

  126. chris Avatar
    chris

    Kat tell that bullshit to the young lady who died in the London bus attack and was buried today. 20 year old Shahara Islam, a bank teller. Your pretty scary yourself you know.I would say fndamentalists of another type have hijacked Jarvis’s blog. Your quite the fanatic. Religion is a scary thing in the hands of one such as yourself. It makes me glad I’m an agnostic tree hugging earth loving person. Man religion can fuck a mind up.

  127. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    This has nothing to do with my religion or lack of–the jihadis hate agnostic infidels as much as they hate Christian ones. The only religion we need to worry about isn’t mine–it’s your friends’.
    The young lady died because she wasn’t islamic enough–she should have been home wearing a veil and having babies. She was no enemy of mine–your friends killed her.

  128. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    I don’t feel any more sorry for the Muslim woman who was considered expendible in the name of jihad, pursuant to fatwa, than I do the countless other innocents slaughtered in the name of Islam daily. Should I?
    Mulim Terror Talking point Number X. Check.

  129. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    And it’s also Muslim Terror Talking Point Number X.

  130. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    These were all beautiful people, too, who were slaughtered by jihadis.
    June 1, 2001: The entrance of the Dolphinarium seaside disco in Tel Aviv – 21 people, mostly teenagers, killed.
    Aug. 9, 2001: Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem – 15 people killed.
    Dec. 1, 2001: Two suicide bombers blow up seconds apart on Jerusalem’s Ben Yehuda pedestrian mall – 11 people killed.
    Dec. 2, 2001: A bus in the coastal city of Haifa – 15 people killed.
    March 2, 2002: Jerusalem’s Ultra-Orthodox Mea Shearim neighborhood – 11 people killed.
    March 9, 2002: Jerusalem’s Moment Cafe – 11 people killed.
    March 20, 2002: A bus near village of Kfar Musmus – seven people killed.
    March 27, 2002: A hotel dining room during a ritual Seder meal at the start of the Passover holiday in the city of Netanya – 29 people killed.
    March 31, 2002: A restaurant in Haifa – 15 people killed.
    April 10, 2002: A bus in Haifa – eight people killed.
    May 7, 2002: A pool hall in the Tel Aviv suburb of Rishon Letzion – 15 people killed.
    June 5, 2002: Bus near Megiddo Junction in northern Israel – 17 people killed.
    June 18, 2002: Patt Junction in southern Jerusalem – 19 people killed.
    June 19, 2002: French Hill intersection in Jerusalem – seven people killed.
    August 4, 2002: A bus at the Meron Junction in northern Israel – eight people killed.
    Oct. 21, 2002: A bus at the Karkur Junction in northern Israel – 14 people killed.
    Nov. 21, 2002: A bus in Jerusalem – 11 people killed.
    Jan. 5, 2003: Two suicide bombers at the Neve Shaanan pedestrian mall in Tel Aviv – 23 people killed.
    March 5, 2003: A bus in Haifa – 17 people killed.
    May 18, 2003: A bus at Jerusalem’s French Hill neighborhood – seven people killed.
    June 11, 2003: A bus on Jerusalem’s central Jaffa Street – 17 people killed.
    Aug. 19, 2003: A bus in Jerusalem – 23 people killed.
    Sept. 9, 2003: A bus stop near an army base outside Tel Aviv – eight Israeli soldiers killed.
    Sept. 9, 2003: Cafe Hillel in Jerusalem – seven people killed.
    Oct. 4, 2003: A seaside restaurant in Haifa – at least 18 people killed.

  131. chris Avatar
    chris

    Israel/Palestine is an ongoing war/occupation. A war over land and religion. Of course your aware of that as you are obviously a Christian fundamentalist. Give us some European examples and remember 1 million muslims/arabs live in London and 6 million live in France. I’m sure you have loads of examples.

  132. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    September 11, 2001: WTC 3,000.
    July 7, 2005: London: 52 and counting.
    July 15, 2005: 30 killed and at least 111 injured in more than 7 suicide bombing attacks in Iraq, including two U.S. Marines.

  133. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Yeah. It’s ‘the land’ every time, ain’t it? Problem is, Islam claims ALL the land and all it’s inhabitants as its own. ONE WORLD UNDER ALLAH.
    Muslim Terror Talking Point Number XX.
    And little c chris, why don’t you do your OWN damn googling instead of commanding and demanding like a Muslim male for some female to do your bidding?

  134. chris Avatar
    chris

    Man I dont know if Iraq really counts. Thats an occupation too. Now if you would have said London, Bali, Madrid that would have aided your argument somewhat. I’m still waiting to hear about those millions of peace loving muslims throughout the Europe that kill everyday in the name of Islam? It doesn’t happen. Only fanatics kill in the name of thier religion. And judging from the lack of deaths throughout Europe in relation to Islam I would have to say your flat out wrong. Your a fundamentalist. You advocate getting rid of muslims correct before they get us, correct? I think any person of sound mind reading this thread can see that its actually you who is pretty dangerous here.

  135. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Oh, and btw. I personally lived through subway bombing attacks in Paris, 1985 – 1986…Algerian Islamofascists…as I took the subway to work each day.
    Don’t you read, little c chris? This jihad crap’s been going on for CENTURIES.

  136. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    BOO!
    “Man I dont know if Iraq really counts. Thats an occupation too.” But of course it’s an *occupation* if controlled by anyone other than Islamofascists. Yawn.

  137. F15C Avatar
    F15C

    Skate said: ” Penny I did Google the Equal Rights Act of 1964 and heres a link to the factual info. http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/39.html
    And by the way you were wrong. Repukes did thier (sic) best to put that one down but they had to go with the flow in the end. ”
    It is not the “Equal Rights Act of 1964”, it is the “Civil Rights Act of 1964”.
    The Southern Democrats lead by Robert Byrd filibustered for 14 hours and 13 minutes in an unsuccessful attempt to block the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Here is synopsis is the legislative path of CRA’64:
    “Republican Senate Minority Leader Everett Dirksen pushed the bill through Congress. The bill divided both political parties and engendered a long-term change in the demographics of both. Johnson realized that supporting this bill would mean losing the South’s overwhelming Democratic Party majority (which did happen, with some exceptions). Although they were a minority party in both houses of Congress, Republicans voted overwhelmingly in favour of the Act, enabling its passage.”
    The legislative dynamics around CRA’64 are nuanced (such as the loss of the ‘Solid South’), but even so, regarding who was for and who was against, there were members of both parties on both sides of the issue.
    But the southern democrats led the opposition in the Senate and employed a filibuster in a failed attempt to stop its passage. Your false charge against the republicans (I won’t dignify the sub-childish term you use) here is disingenuous and ignorant at best, and a weak attempt at misrepresenting the facts to support your agenda at worst.

  138. chris Avatar
    chris

    Eileen your a hoot! Although a times it seems my sarcasm is lost on you. You got some man/woman issues going on there that are a little confusing too but alas I’m sure your not all that bad! Judging from the intensity of your posts I would say that its time to chuck that “christian faith” for some good ole fashioned Kama Sutra. How do feel about the Hindu faith?

  139. chris Avatar
    chris

    F15 I’ll give you the fact I misnamed the act. I meant to write Civil with a big c. But if you check the link I posted you will see that supporters were worried with JFK being shot the legislation wouldn’t go through. They were surprised when LBJ made it a top priority as a tribute to JFK. As far as for or against in congress it was pretty much split. I’d like to point out that it was a white “christian” that killed Martin Luther King. Just to egg Eileen on.

  140. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Little c chris harrison? Are you some Jihadi Jamaican living in FLA or something? We don’t say “throughout the Europe” here. But Yeah, little c, I’m sure we *are* out to “get all Muslims before they get us first – [correct, twice, as you would say]”.
    Muslim Terror Talking Point Number XXX.
    And you call me a *fundamentalist* – as you did Kat a few posts ago – without any basis in reality. [And to think that last night I actually tried to appeal to you as a real human being.] Nice buzz word, though, I suppose: work on gaining continuing support and sympathy from western lefties by appealing to their abhorrence for Christian evangelists.
    Muslim Terror Talking Point Number XXXX.
    But reality doesn’t exist for you, does it? It’s only about: Praise Allah.

  141. F15C Avatar
    F15C

    Correction to my last post. I said “Skate” when I meant to write “chris”. My apologies to Skate.
    chris said:
    “as far as Darfur goes once again its about land. Westerners in thier (sic) land specifically are the root cause.It was a land dispute that has turned into an ethnic one. Try this very informative link.
    http://hrw.org/backgrounder/africa/darfur0105/2.htm#_Toc94084697“
    I assume by ‘westerners’ you mean the British. If so, you are going very far back to establish root cause. Here is the summary of the matter from the link you provided:
    “Darfurís migration routes have been delineated since the days of the British colonial rule, when the system of dars was elaborated…”
    I have to assume the above is where you impute that the carnage in Darfur is the fault of westerners as it is the only place non-Africans and non-Arabs are mentioned. If you were to read on though, the text is clear (hence the “However”) that the land issues have arisen in the post-British era:
    “However, over the past few decades, there has been increasing conflict over land, especially between sedentary Fur18 farming communities and migrating Arab nomads, particularly landless nomadic groups, due to a number of factors: increasing human and livestock population, environmental degradation, expanding agricultural cultivation, inadequate water resources and the migration of nomads from Chad into Darfur.”
    Bottom line though, these land issues are only part of the impetus for the horrible violence in Darfur, with ethnicity and religion catalyzing the mix resulting in the atrocities emanating from the janjaweed and government.
    Here is a salient quote from the same link that begins to indicate the *real* issues at work in Darfur:
    “Although the term ìAfricanî historically had little relevance in the Darfur context, many of the Fur, Zaghawa and other victims of government-militia attacks have increasingly identified themselves as ìAfricanî in opposition to their ìArabî attackers. This is a troubling sign of the increasingly polarizing effect of the conflict, in which manyóbut not allóethnic groups have felt compelled to become involved along ethnic lines.”
    Your characterization of the problems in Darfur as being caused by ‘westerners’ and somehow involving land is simplistic and ridiculous.

  142. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    “I’m sure your not all that bad!”
    Yah. You FINALLY got it, little c! Stick with me and apostasize.
    BTW, aGain, little c. I guess you don’t/can’t read. Sorry to burst your baby boy bubble, but I’m a spiritualist. Kama Sutra? BOO!

  143. F15C Avatar
    F15C

    chris, my point is that even considering the JFK dynamic, the fundamental politics of the day had the democrats against civil rights and republicans for civil rights. It was definitely not homogeneous, there were exceptions on both sides. But dating back to the Civil War and the repulican support for abolition, until 1964 the democrats were the major opposition to civil rights.

  144. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Thanks, F15C.
    And g’night.

  145. chris Avatar
    chris

    Spiritualist! The devil must be laughing at that one! And for your info. I’m white, 28, british, married, agnostic and antiwar. Like most of Britain. I’m just guessing here but you are: white, female,elderly,overweight,religious and shop at Walmart. Correct?

  146. chris Avatar
    chris

    F15 J. Edgar Hoover did his worst to undermine the Civil Rights movement. He was the most powerful man in Washington next to the presidents he served under. He was also a Repuke (as I like to call em). He spent decades working to keep blacks from having equal rights all the while wearing womens panties and a bra. Fascinating. Kind of reminds me of the O’Reillys and Limbaughs of todays repukes. http://www.koor.web.org/foley/essays/essay_14.html

  147. edoyle13@aol.com Avatar
    edoyle13@aol.com

    Baby Boy, Little C Chris. How right about you could I have *possibly* been? It is immeasurable!!!
    It’s not too late: apostasize! Or go down. Remember, in Islam, you’re only given one chance.
    The devil you say.

  148. Skate Avatar
    Skate

    Kat wrote, “{As for the Bill of Rights you so proudly refer to Kat,} Again, you raving lunatic, I never referred to the Bill of Rights–fire your translator–obviously spent too much time reading the koran and not learning English.”
    Wow! Kat actually got one right. Yup, who would have thought that possible! I looked it up, it was **penny** who mentioned the bill of rights! Well, how on earth could anyone mistake kat for penny?
    Gotta say, though, the ad hominem attacks (calling people who disagree with you “raving lunatics,” for instance) really don’t bolster your case! Try making a real point rather than calling people names–if you can.
    PS
    Typo in my previous post “though” should be “thought.” I must have been temporarily stunned by some incredibly inane comment posted on this thread :-)

  149. John Avatar
    John

    At this point it is crucial to note that all groups involved, most importantly the Iraqi insurgent factions as well as Al Qaeda, have publically condemned the bombing of innocent children in this instance.
    They are all running away from this because they know it crossed the line.
    The only ones who don’t get it are the peace & love leftists.
    What I’m hearing from them is “Well of course it’s a horrible act, but….”
    Clue: There is no “but…”.
    Yes, some things other than your ignorance CAN be absolute.
    Some acts are inexcusable, in a global human sense, and abhorrent to all cultures and religions.
    Some times it seems that the “open minded” left is open to any manner of depravity, but remains oblivious to it’s own fading relevance.

  150. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Gee, I am impressed. Even Canada sees these guys for what they are–not insurgents, but detestable murderers and scumbags. Course, if Canada gets attacked the lefties will blame this guy for not coddling the scum.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050715/AFGHAN15/TPFront/TopStories
    And the Dallas News must have read Jeff–they complied by calling the scum what they are –terrorists.
    You have to register and it’s short–here it is:
    {Call Them What They Are: Those who murder Iraqi civilians are terrorists
    09:02 AM CDT on Friday, July 15, 2005
    Two words not uncommon to editorial pages are “resolve” and “sacrifice,” especially as they relate to war.
    Today, this editorial board resolves to sacrifice another word ñ “insurgent” ñ on the altar of precise language. No longer will we refer to suicide bombers or anyone else in Iraq who targets and kills children and other innocent civilians as “insurgents.”
    The notion that these murderers in any way are nobly rising up against a sitting government in a principled fight for freedom has become, on its face, absurd. If they ever held a moral high ground, they sacrificed it weeks ago, when they turned their focus from U.S. troops to Iraqi men, women and now children going about their daily lives.
    They drove that point home with chilling clarity Wednesday in a poor Shiite neighborhood. As children crowded around U.S. soldiers handing out candy and toys in a gesture of good will, a bomb-laden SUV rolled up and exploded.
    These children were not collateral damage. They were targets.
    The SUV driver was no insurgent. He was a terrorist.
    People who set off bombs on London trains are not insurgents. We would never think of calling them anything other than what they are ñ terrorists.
    Train bombers in Madrid? Terrorists.
    Chechen rebels who take over a Russian school and execute children? Terrorists.
    Teenagers who strap bombs to their chests and detonate them in an Israeli cafe? Terrorists.
    IRA killers? Basque separatist killers? Hotel bombers in Bali? Terrorists all.
    Words have meanings. Whether too timid, sensitive or “open-minded,” we’ve resisted drawing a direct line between homicidal bombers everywhere else in the world and the ones who blow up Iraqi civilians or behead aid workers.
    No more. To call them “insurgents” insults every legitimate insurgency in modern history. They are terrorists.
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/editorials/stories/071505dnediiraqkids.105158b.html}

  151. penny Avatar
    penny

    You nailed it, John.

  152. chris Avatar
    chris

    John, people on the left don’t condone this act in any way. Its horrific. What we tend to do though that the right doesn’t seem to do is understand the root cause. Would this act have happened had we not invaded Iraq? Of course fundamentalists here will say yes. They have thier religious agenda. But the fact of the matter is it wouldn’t have taken place had we not invaded. This so called “waaaa on terra” has always been about oil in my mind. Us on the left in the U.K. (which incidentally is most of the country) don’t think it was very wise for your President to invade and destabilize a country of 29 million people. It was pretty stupid actually considering all the deaths that have now taken place. Personally I have always thought it was about Oil, Israel and keeping China, Iran and Russia in check. Go to http://www.newamericancentury.org to read what the neocons really have in mind for your now colonialist country. Thats thier own website that tells thier geopolitical strategy. The America the world knew and loved has been hijacked by right wing extremists(similar to many of the folks at this site Kat, Eileen, Maureen,Penny,Dak). The irony isn’t lost on us in the U.K. Your extremist views actually give Osama Bin Laden what he wants which is a jihad. The rights escalating anger drives the U.S. to more war therby creating more terrorists and in the end possibly the 3rd world war. Of course I know most folks around here arent too worried about that as they will all be sweptup in the rapture afterwards. Right Kat? This “war” should have been fought covertly with strong allied support so the terrorists could be done away with and no new ones would be created. Iraq was a serious blunder. The whole world knows that. Everyone but the U.S. knows that. You can blame that on your administration and your media.

  153. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Yeah, we know there were no ties between saddam and osama because the loons told me so.
    http://archives.warroom.com/abcnews-1999.mp3
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp

  154. John Avatar
    John

    chris,
    thanks,
    you’ve made my point.

  155. chris Avatar
    chris

    No John I made my point. If we understand the root cause then we can deal with it properly. America is yet to wake up to the fact they were attacked by Bin Laden (who incidentally was thier man against the Russians) because of thier foreign policy. Black gold, Texas tea!

  156. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Give them a caliphate. That’s all they want.

  157. chris Avatar
    chris

    Kat, how did my description of you hold up from earlier? Just curious.