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Yes, Iraq is working

59 comments on Yes, Iraq is working

Yes, Iraq is working

: Today Andrew Sullivan eats a few crow feathers on Iraq:

It behooves me to write that I’m chastened – and extremely heartened – by the progress we’re making in Iraq. The elections were obviously the key – and they should have been scheduled at least a year before they were. But it’s equally true that the constancy of our amazing troops, and the magic of democracy, are turning this long hard slog into a long hard slog with an end in sight. The criticisms of the past endure. But the fundamental objective seems to be within sight. The right decision – to remove Saddam – is no longer being stymied by wrong decisions. I feared the worst. I was wrong.

Good for Sullivan. I still say it was the right thing to do. I still say it’s working. I also still say we could have done things better — hell, one always can — and so I’m not sure I’m ready to echo Sullivan there. But it is nice seeing people who had complaints — Sullivan or Maher — come forward honorably to say it’s working. Because right now, it is starting to work. Let’s hope it continues to improve.

59 responses to “Yes, Iraq is working”

  1. kl Avatar
    kl

    Cue Ollie Volley in five… four… three… two…

  2. Oliver Avatar
    Oliver

    …one.
    I can think of 1,547 reasons why the Iraq war will never have been worth it. That someone like Sullivan, who goes along with the crowd so he can always be “in” has flip-flopped on this tells me how right I am.

  3. Brian Perry Avatar
    Brian Perry

    Well, this is an old, tired argument.
    Welcome to 2003! Again!
    Bleh.
    If we are so lucky there will never be another Vietnam. However, millions of Americans will hope and dream of one, just as they hope for the downfall of their dreaded Establishment and Military-Industrial Complex.
    May they all hope fruitlessly and indefinitely, and may their doubt continue to be shown up by reality. Again.

  4. kl Avatar
    kl

    What doesn’t?

  5. Del Avatar
    Del

    Im waiting to see what their Constitution and Bill of Rights looks like before I decide whether it ‘worked’ or not. For me it all depends on how much of a role Islam plays in the new gov’t, and how much of a role it can play in the future (whether “sep of church and state” is written into their Constitution or not).

  6. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    By the way, Afghanistan is slowly coming back under Taliban control. Glad we diverted all those resources to that giant threat in Iraq. The sad thing is that in 10 years when we’re in just as much or more danger as before (and no I don’t think removing Saddam makes us any more safe or less safe), no one will connect the dots to say that maybe if we hadn’t diverted so many resources from Iraq and rooting out Al-Qaeda we would be better off. Just like no one seems to remember that we’re the ones who put Saddam in power in the first place or the role we played in enabling the Taliban to come to power. How convenient.

  7. kevinP Avatar
    kevinP

    Jeff:
    Sully gets points for fessing up. And there have been numerous errors in how the war was fought. I have noticed a growing trend to point out that the elections should have been held sooner. I remember torrents of critism from the MSM and at least half of the Democrats that holding the elections in January was hubris and Bush being stubborn. They moaned that the elections should be delayed until the security situation was more stable. I can’t remeber the exact qoute but I believe Sen Kerry said that Bush was being stubborn and not looking at the facts on the ground by insisting on holding the elections in January. In hindsight holding the elections earlier would have been better but I hope all those who ripped Bush for holding them too soon are not ripping him for holding them too late.

  8. Bill Quick Avatar
    Bill Quick

    By the way, Afghanistan is slowly coming back under Taliban control.

    Huh? Even Reuters thinks you’re nuts.

  9. franky Avatar
    franky

    If I’m wrong about Iraq and it turns out to be a stable, functioning democracy I’ll happily eat my words.
    But one can’t fail to notice that Jeff has never once written praising pro-war writers for conceding they were wrong on the fundamental premise for this war – the military threat of Iraq.

  10. Ralph Tacoma Avatar
    Ralph Tacoma

    franky,
    There’s a reason for that. Namely that they weren’t wrong, and that Iraq is triggering the spread of democracy in the Middle East far more rapidly than even the most optimistic of us would have hoped.
    Still, I do give Sullivan credit for seeing some of the good.

  11. Jerry Avatar
    Jerry

    The jury is far from in on Iraq. Maybe there will be enough time for everybody to change their minds about the invasion at least once, so that when a constitution is adopted and we have some experience with watching it work, nobody can say “I told you so,” and we can assess what our loss of life brought us with a minimum of political posturing.

  12. dries Avatar
    dries

    taliban’s coming back? where? not a long time ago i read on BBC, of all places that US soldiers were so bored in afghanstan they were “tipping” abandoned soviet jets for fun.

  13. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    … fire!
    Well, Oliver, I have to give you points for timing.

  14. John Avatar
    John

    Jeff,
    Are you saying that you actually continue to take this guy seriously?
    I stopped doing that many moons ago.
    But, thats just me, for what it’s worth.

  15. franky Avatar
    franky

    As others have pointed out Sullivan is a joke. This is a guy who seemed to sense that the election might go to Kerry so tells people he won’t vote for Bush. Then goes on a show a week after the election and screams “that’s why you lost last week” to Chomsky. Typical Washington hack. Of course the longer we tolerate them and link to them like they have anything interesting to say, the longer we’ll be plagued by them.

  16. Lynn Avatar
    Lynn

    It’s good our President is one whose convictions do not need applause – or polls – to stay the course.
    Growing up I remember the hullabalu over McCarthy. It wasn’t until recently, when I read this article, that I finally became aware McCarthy was not the disgrace I had been told about in my youth. McCarthy had in fact acted with courage on his convictions, and was hated for it. It wasn’t until much later he was proved right.
    I believe Bush once said he was not expecting short term history to remember him kindly.

  17. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Ollie, you’re an idiot. Like flypaper to stupid. Just to get that out of the way.
    As to Sully’s secondary poiunt — the elections “should have been scheduled at least a year before they were” — that’s easy to say now. But could the elections have been held while Saddam’s remaining henchmen still had their big stash of cash, still had the materiel, and still had a bunch of fresh young nutcases champing at the bit? In other words, before the Saddamite forces had been attrited by something like 60 percent?
    Not bloody likely.
    With the emphasis on “bloody”.
    Oh, Ollie? Yes, 1600+ brave people died in Iraq saving millions, and opening the first chance that area has had for peace and freedom, maybe ever.
    On the other hand, 42,643 peope died in 2003 in highway accidents. I presume that if even one death is too much to save a bunch of Ay-rabs, 42,000 deaths is too many for driving to the 7-11.

  18. Alan Avatar
    Alan

    Sully must be gearing up for an early summer fund drive..

  19. MattSchiavenza Avatar
    MattSchiavenza

    As others have pointed out on this thread, the jury remains in on Iraq- and should for some time. Even though developments are encouraging, the only appropriate “apologies” should be from those on the left that predicted utter catastrophic disaster and those on the right that predicted an absolute cakewalk. The real verdict lies somewhere in the middle.

  20. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Apologies from the Bush haters may be nice to hear but don’t mean much in themselves. I want to know if they will be this insane the next time their nation makes a move to fix a major problem in the world. Many people trashed Afghanistan and now pretend they had no problem – and then went on to trash the Iraq war. Will they pretend that Iraq was never a problem in a year? If they are Dems running for office, probably. At least Catherine is holding out and still trashing the Afghan war. At least some on the Left are still loyal to the Death Eaters.

  21. Buzzsaw Avatar
    Buzzsaw

    Yes, I agree, we’ve made great strides in establishing the Islamic Shiite Republic Of Iraq.
    Most of those Iraqis who stood in line to vote didn’t do so to usher in a new age of democracy; they voted for the Shiite party endorsed by their Grand Ayatollah. He happens to be a moderate, but when he’s gone?!!
    Anyone who thinks we’ve turned the corner in Iraq already is ignorant of Middle Eastern politics and history. This is far from over.
    P.S. —
    Lynn said “McCarthy had in fact acted with courage on his convictions, and was hated for it. It wasn’t until much later he was proved right.”
    LOL LMAO ROFL
    Thanks, Lynn, that was a good one :)

  22. Howard Avatar
    Howard

    To dolts like Buzzsaw there is always a cloud inside every silver lining. Of course he is entirely wrong, but why should that stop his spewing? If i had a nickel for every leftie schmuck who uttered some such idiocy i wouldn’t be in Iraq, i’d move to the Upper West Side to mingle with the idiot set.
    Keep on hoping for the worse buzzsaw, you surely will be terrible upset. And when Iraq turns the corner 100% you best hope for a Dem President so you can say it was he, not Bush, that is responsible – Laugh riot.

  23. HA Avatar
    HA

    The pigs are flocking north, and I’m in agreement with Oliver “Like Stickum to Stupid” Willis. Sulli and Willi. What a pair of commentators. For all his failings, at least Willi is consistent.
    Sulli, on the other hand, discredited himself a long time ago with his flailing arguments. Now Sulli comes along to declare that the elections “should have been scheduled at least a year” ago, but that the “criticisms of the past endure.”
    What bullshit. Who the hell does he think he is? What wisdom does Sulli bring to the table to make these assertions?
    Here is a timeline of events in Iraq through January 2004 from the Guardian of all places:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/page/0,12438,793802,00.html
    When during the 9 to 10 month period after the start of the war would Sulli in all his infinite wisdom been able to pull off elections in Iraq?
    Sulli’s criticism have not endured. They’ve washed away like sand-castles, along with his credibility.

  24. HA Avatar
    HA

    Hey Oliver,
    You forgot to make your sponsored, ritual denunciation of Jeff for not being a “real” liberal. You better get back here before you lose your funding.

  25. Ed Poinsett Avatar
    Ed Poinsett

    HA: Right on, anyone who takes a serious look at the time line of events in Iraq and argues that the elections could have been held a year earlier is being dishonest. In fact from start to the present, the timeline could not have been significantly shortened. Every milepost, from CPA to IGC to return of soverignty to elections has been on time. The naysayers have been complaining that it took 10 weeks after the elections to set up the current government. What BS. It took the USA 10 years to get our Constitution put together.
    The handwringers have been wrong every step of the way, but they aren’t done being wrong yet. There is not going to be a civil war under any circumstances; while Islam may be considered, Sharia and an Islamic Republic are not going to happen; the insurgency will continue to diminish as sponsors like Syria and Iran are pressured by other neighbors to back off; Mookie Sadr’s 10,000 protestors are still going to be a drop in the bucket in a city of 5,000,000.
    Iraq can’t fail, because its people won’t let it. The elections proved that they have the strength, even in the face of unbelievable personal threats, that they have this one chance to get things right for their children. They will succeed.

  26. Name Withheld Avatar
    Name Withheld

    Actually the Bush administration resisted holding elections in January, they wanted to hold them later. It was because of pressure from Sistani that they agreed to hold it earlier…
    They also weren’t too keen on the idea of a one person one vote election…

  27. franky Avatar
    franky

    Ptolemy,
    long time no see. I thought we had lost you.

  28. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Y’know, you keep posting stuff like this instead of resigning and someone will either get stuck in the intake tube or have to be rolled down to the squeezing room.

  29. beetroot Avatar
    beetroot

    Nothing that happens in Iraq today will ever change the fact that the Prez and company lied and bulls**t the country to start that invasion.
    Which is why we’ll always have Americans who will continue to despise him regardless of the progress made in Iraq.
    Which is why I want to puke every time I here someone say, “What if Bush was right?” Bush wasn’t right about WMD, the “nexus” of Iraq and terrorism, etc. He was wrong about all those things.
    I mean, honestly, nobody talked about the grand plan for advancing democracy worldwide until we were already committed to the war. They lied, they fearmongered, they spun the American people like tops and that will never change.
    If things seem to be going well right now, I chalk that up to the incredible capacity of the military and the civil sector to make the best out of a really awful situation.
    And if there’s some hope in sight at the moment, imagine how much better things might be if Rummy hadn’t let the opposition loot the nation as soon as we’d conquered, or if Bremer and company had started the occupation with anything approaching a realistic plan for economic and social transition.

  30. Howard Avatar
    Howard

    beetroot – please enlighten me: What did our Pres lie about? WMD’s were one of a myriad of reasons for the invasion, the successful war and the gathering peace.
    Don’t worry son maybe one day you will have the chance to embrace another despotic regime over a Republican Pres.
    Must make you feel all warm and fuzzy to support depotism over democracy huh?
    Hey does anyone remember when being a liberal meant caring about democracy and human rights? Me neither.

  31. Name Withheld Avatar
    Name Withheld

    Howard, and conservatives/republicans only seem to care about democracy for countries whose despot leaders decides to defy the United States.
    No interest in democracy for Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkmenistan and so on….

  32. Vincent Avatar
    Vincent

    Ah, the old “because we haven’t gone after all dictators, we should go after none at all” line.
    Is that supposed to pass as a principled argument?

  33. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    I believe America is very interested in democracy everywhere but we have to work with the sad failed nations we have. Venezuala is a disaster and we get a great amount of our oil from them but we aren’t invading them or taking down their government because other people failing themselves is not our main concern. If Chavez (Carter’s buddy) decides to follow through with his swaggering attacks against American interests then you will see a very different result. Venezuala has nothing to gain by making America its enemy but that has never stopped nations before. Its true, we want democracy but its not our primary focus. Disabling the enemy is. Don’t want to be disabled? Don’t make yourself our enemy. If Americans deserve to be hurt due to the actions of our government, then that leftist mantra should be applied to every other nation as well. Your country is not the enemy Name Withheld. We didn’t make the Germans become Nazis and we didn’t make the Russiand go Communist. They achieved that all by themselves. We didn’t make Arabs become terrorists and we aren’t making Venezuala or Zimbabwe dictatorships. These nations did this all by themselves. Iraq got exactly what it deserved – the war AND the bright future awaiting it.

  34. MattSchiavenza Avatar
    MattSchiavenza

    “Ah, the old “because we haven’t gone after all dictators, we should go after none at all” line.”
    True- that’s not a good argument, but it sure beats the hell out of the belief that people opposing the Iraq war did so out of some great love of despotism and nothing else.

  35. Name Withheld Avatar
    Name Withheld

    Vincent, that wasn’t what I said. You should probably read my post again. It’s short so you should be able to do that.
    Ptolemy, last time I checked Chavez (the president of Venezuela) won in a democratic election on the 30th of July 2000 with 60% of the votes with the next election to be held in 2006, there also was a recall vote in 2004 which he also won (is that even possible in the US, can you recall the president?). So I’m guessing you want to overthrow democratic elected goverments before going after dictators who are allied with the US. The only thing interesting with Venezuela seems to be a thing that Iraq has a lot of: oil. But that couldn’t be it, could it? So I’m guessing you don’t agree with Bush talk about spreading democracy? You are more for spreading US loyalty wether it’s based on democracy or dictatorship… Also are the US going to attack the Iraq once more if the now elected goverment decides to align itself with Iran?
    Zimbabwe on the other hand is a dictatorship, but why care about that since they don’t have a lot of oil? And they aren’t really a threat to the US either.
    Finally, I’ve got a dual citizenship. It does give you a broader view of the world. You can get a smaller version of it by changing channel and not watching Fox News all day… ;)

  36. HA Avatar
    HA

    Name Witheld,
    So you have dual citizenship. Where do your loyalties lie? Does your dual citizenship give you a “broader” view, or rather a narrow, anti-American view which you mistake for a “broader” view?

  37. HA Avatar
    HA

    Name Witheld,
    I just went back through your comments. You’ve asserted that the US only supported Iraqi elections under pressure from Sistani. You’ve asserted that we didn’t want one-man, one-vote elections. You’ve asserted that we don’t really support democracy. You’ve asserted that our opposition to Chavez is motivated by the quest for oil.
    In your “broad” view, is there anything good about America?

  38. Name Withheld Avatar
    Name Withheld

    HA, short answer, yes there are good things about the US. On the other hand there isn’t a lot of good things about Bush. Longer answer later.

  39. Howard Avatar
    Howard

    OHHH longer answer later. I’m waiting with baited breath. Say is anyone going to answer the “what did Bush lie about” question, or is it too much to ask for a little intellectual honesty from the pacifist/dictator loving lefty set?
    But of course.

  40. HA Avatar
    HA

    Name Witheld,
    You said there isn’t a “lot of good things about Bush.” Well, that means there is at least SOMETHING that is good about Bush. What are they? Or is he really a Nazi?
    Keep in mind that Bush was elected by the American people. Does that mean that the majority of Americans are bumpkins duped into voting for the evil Bushitler by Fox News? In your “broad” view, are Americans stupid?

  41. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Chavez was elected which confirms what I said. The people of Venezuala deserve what they get. If their elected leader leads their nation into conflict with the US out of some Leftist ferver, then they will be paying a price in the future. They could be getting along with us and prospering but instead will clutch their poverty and chains in order to “show the Yanks”. What will they have gained? What did the Russians gain after 70 years of fascism? Nazis, Communists, terrorists, Progessives – all have risen or are rising to take down the US. Their track record isn’t very good is it?

  42. beetroot Avatar
    beetroot

    Hey Howard:
    The big lie was that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11. Another lie was that a nuclear or similar attack backed by Saddam was imminent. A third lie was that we’d be in and out of there in a few months, and wouldn’t have to occupy for long or pay much for any of it.
    And before you wet your pants bleating, “but he never said aaaaany of that,” look at the polls showing that, as we went to war, something like three-quarters of Americans believed that Saddam was behind 9/11.
    Now, Howard, do you think that was an accident? If you say yes, you’re telling me that Americans are stupid. If you say no, you’re going to have to explain where they got that idea. And if you tell me that they got that idea from anyone but their President, you’re in denial.
    These guys are brilliant media strategists. They know how to communicate without leaving themselves exposed to accusations of a direct lie. Condi’s famous line about “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” is the epitome. Of course, she never says, “Saddam’s got nukes,” but that’s the clear and obvious rhetorical implication, and it was drummed into American heads for months as we led up to mobilization.
    These guys know how to lie without getting caught – they’re a bunch of freaking lawyers, for God’s sakes. Their exact statements may – barely – pass muster for strict adherence to truth. But the big message – “Saddam is working with terrorists who are coming to kill you and your family just like on 9/11” – came through loud and clear, because these guys know how to shape rhetorical reality.
    But it don’t pass the smell test. It stank, Howard, it freaking stank, and it stinks to this day. They knew exactly what they wanted to do, and they concoted a media strategy that played on existing fears and trauma of 9/11 to get support to do it.
    Now, I’m not going to tell you that Saddam was a good guy, or even that I wouldn’t have supported action to take him down (I supported our entry into Bosnia against Milosevic, for example).
    But I cannot support an administration that so shamelessly bulls**t the American people.
    Besides, if they’d told the truth, why do we have all these investigations into why the reality turned out so different? And don’t give me that “all the best intelligence said” crap. They knew what they wanted to hear. They wanted to bomb Iraq on 9/12, Howard! The DAY AFTER 9/11! Why?
    I don’t know why. We’ve never been told.

  43. Name Withheld Avatar
    Name Withheld

    Howard, the thing is that I don’t like dictators, I don’t like communist dictators like Castro, I don’t like facist dictators like Franco. I also don’t believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So I didn’t believe in supporting either Saddam Hussein or the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the 1980’s just because they were against Iran and the Soviet Union. Both those two decisions came back to haunt the US later. There is one muslim nation with nukes run by a dictator, the chief scientist of their nuclear program has also helped other countries with their programs. But since they right now are an ally to the US that’s no problem. Guess if that will come back to haunt us later….
    And yes I’m a democrat which would put me left of a republican. And I’m also proud of it.
    HA, a Texan could decide to only care for what’s good for Texas or he could decide that what’s good for the US probably is going to be good for himself too even if it won’t be perfect for Texas…
    Also as a democrat I obviously wasn’t thrilled about the 2004 election. But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect the outcome. The only one who don’t seem to approve of democratic elections in this thread seems to be Ptolemy. And I’m not calling Americans stupid. And I won’t paraphrase Ptolemy and argue that the US got what they deserved, cause that would be stupid too.
    Ptolemy, the Soviet Union suffered under communism, not facism. You probably should learn to spot the difference since facism is more likely to happen in the US than communism.
    Also about prospering nations, the nations that are prospering today are China and India, and they will become economic super powers. They might not be military super powers like the US, but they both got nukes and those usually work as a deterent against any kind of attack.

  44. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    I see little difference between communism and fascism since they both use the same tactics and both manage homicide on a catastrophic scale.
    I’m very happy with democratic elections. I’m not certain where I confused you on that. Unless, as a typical leftist, you are calling me a fascist and assume I don’t approve of democratic elections or something like that. Venezualans can have any government they want but spare me the pictures of poverty and suffering in a few years when all that “progessivism” bears its poison fruit. The left will blame America for it all, of course.
    Beetroot – I too felt that the administration was over stating the threat of Iraq because they wanted to destroy Saddam for some time. I always believed that the goal was to take out Iraq to make things move in the Middle East and that the WMD was the veneer given to make it more acceptable to Europe and the Left. Bush forgot that ANYTHING America does is wrong to both groups and could have saved himself some trouble just telling it like it is. I realize you would call it a lie rather than an overstatement. We know you hate us. We’ve been aware for some time. Haven’t the last several national elections not proven that?

  45. franky Avatar
    franky

    Ptolemy, you seem radicalised. But a couple of points – you mention the pictures of suffering and poverty that will occur in Veneuzela under Chavez – most of the country is already impoverished, having been ruled by one of the most corrupt oligarchies in Latin America (and that’s saying something). Chavez is liked and respected by the majority because he appears to be trying to do something where previous presidents simply robbed. Unfortunately, Washington very clearly showed that it supported the thieves. Venezuela’s problems are not the result of the US and no one worth listening to would say otherwise, but don’t tell me this administration is at all moralistic in its dealings with Latin America.
    And just to take you up on your broad generalizations that to be honest are beneath you – not all of Europe is a homogenous entity bent on US humilitation and fall. Many applaued the US intervention in Yugoslavia and were disgusted by the EU for not doing anything about this crisis in its own backyard.
    You say that Bush could have saved himself by telling the truth about the invasion – you don’t find that interesting that he DIDN’T TELL THE TRUTH nor does that dent your impression of him as a straight-shooter? Sounds positively slick willyesque to me.
    Beetroot, you ask the rhetorical question of why Iraq was important. I think there are a number of different reasons. 1) oil is undoubtedly a cause. Worried over the sustainability of the goat-herding royal family of Saud, I think many were anxious to free up the immense oil reserves in Iraq. 2) The takeover of Iraq would allow for the installation of another military base in the region, which is obviously needed to keep control over oil production. 3) the likudnicks seem to have played a role in this, apparently tricked by Chalabi in to believing that Iraq, despised by Likud party, would change regime and one of the carrots Chalabi laughably offered was that Iraq would recongise Israel (it tells you a lot about the people running our foreign policy that they would even believe something so nonsensical, but nevermind). 4) The challege Iraq posed could simply not stand for the burgeoning US empire. Iraq had been thumbing its nose at the US for the past decade and in an age where symbols and signs of strenght will come to be more important as we truly begin to compete with China, this example of defiance could not be left to stand. The four, in no particular order, seem to me the reasons the US went to war and as you rightly point out had decided to go to war on 9/12.

  46. Howard Avatar
    Howard

    The big lie was that Saddam was behind 9/11…and when did Bush-hitler-Halliburton exactly say this???? Oh that’s right he never did. He just had Karl Rove use his super sekret mental ray gun to make people believe that..brilliant. I expect nothing less from the American hating left.
    Name Withheld – Clearly comparing Iraq and the Afghan Mujahadeen tells me you know nothing of either. Might i suggest you read “Ghost War”, take another look at the US circa 1979-1982 and then come back and we can chit chat.

  47. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    Franky,
    There have been other theories that the invasion of Iraq was tied to the Book of Revelation. Christian Fundamentalists believe that once the Jews returned to Isreal, a series of events would unfold that eventually leads to the end of the world. If I’m not mistaken, I believe I read it was originally believed that it would start 25 years after Israel became a nation, which meant 1972. But 1972 came and went. Then it was amended so that the beginning of the end would start 25 years after there was peace in Israel (shifting rationale?). So the theory says that the idea was to invade Iraq in order to provide security and peace for Israel and this way the world will end, all the good Christian Fundamentalists will go to heaven, and I will go the hell. So is the clock now clicking? Set your watches. I think I have some final preparations to make.
    Actually, I don’t even pretend to be an expert in this theory, and don’t know how much validity it has. But at first glance, it certainly does ring true with regards to Mr. Delay & Co.
    I had an uncle who was a Catholic Priest, who wrote a book called “The Book of Destiny”. This book was an interpretation of the Book of Revelation in painstaking detail. I have the book, but haven’t gotten through alot of it yet. It can be tedious reading. But it could be interesting to see how how/if this all fits together.

  48. Name Withheld Avatar
    Name Withheld

    Howard, I didn’t compare Iraq and the Afghan Mujahadeen. Saddam Hussein (Iraq) and the Afghan Mujahadeen are both examples for terrorist groups or dictators that the US have supported due that they were enemies to countries that the US thought to be greater enemies. And in both cases the US created a lot more trouble that later came back to haunt them.
    Ptolemy, the fact that you mix up communism and facism says a lot. “We didn’t make Arabs become terrorists and we aren’t making Venezuala or Zimbabwe dictatorships.” says a lot about your view of the Venezuelan election. And about their poverty, I would guess that if they would nationalize (it’s a bad word for republicans, Iraq wants to do it too) their oil and used their money for the common good (and that is a big if) they wouldn’t be very poor.

  49. Howard Avatar
    Howard

    You consider the Mujahadeen terrorists? Interesting. Completely wrong, but interesting nevertheless.
    Do you know anything about the Soviet/Afghan war? Based on what i have read from you, the answer is clearly no.

  50. franky Avatar
    franky

    Howard,
    I’m glad to see that there’s a least some remanants of the “US can’t support terrorists no matter what they do”. We have a word for that – hack.
    Dear Linda, I know eactly what you are saying. The real support for this extreme right-wing Israeli government is not coming from the likudniks, but from the extreme right-wing christians who in fact want to see all the jews converted. If you look where the real opposition to any peace process with the palestinians is coming from it is exactly this redneck/snake dancing faction in congress.

  51. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    If Venezuala can make it work – more power to them. I don’t want them in poverty and I don’t want them unhappy. I don’t really want any nation’s people to be unhappy but if the only way they can be happy is by hating or hurting the US they can take their stunted dreams to Paris and see what they get.
    You’re right Franky, I don’t look at Bush as a man of God myself but then I’m not religious so I might be missing something. I’m certain many of the religion haters miss a great deal. The US is not Saint Theresa and we don’t have to be any more ethical to Latin America than they are to us. I’m not going to pretend these nations are our equals in common sense or morality but as fellow humans they are obligated to rise above the bigoted animal state and utilize the Golden Rule (I’m well aware we have bigoted animals in America too and have no qualms watching them suffer for it either). Again, I don’t want them to be hurting but that pain is self-inflicted. I do at times suffer remorse at my wording but posting just kind of loses the “nuance” of vocal conversation. Stop making me feel guilty. Its too easy.
    Bush isn’t Moses but he’s not the Devil either and the many reasons I’m very thankful for his existence at this time cannot be explained here.
    What does seeing Communism and Fascism as virtually the same say about someone? The theories and experts don’t register to me. Its all about the outcome and thier outcomes were identical. The NAZIs were Social-ists in case you have forgotten. They hated liberal capitalism and the US as much as you and the Soviets do/did.

  52. Howard Avatar
    Howard

    Franky – Crack smoking and posting don’t mix. Either do one or the other. Dope.

  53. Linda Edwards Avatar
    Linda Edwards

    Ptolemy,
    I know exactly what you mean about the written words in one’s postings not always matching the tone in one’s thoughts. I’m haven’t been doing this blogging thing very long, but have already learned (the hard way) that sometimes what I’m typing with a grin on my face doesn’t always come across to the reader that way. But it’s also often the frame of mind of the reader going into the subject matter that predetermines his/her own interpretation. I have an greater appreciation of the talent of writers who are able to convey their ideas accurately.
    I guess there’s no substitution for face-to-face discussion. This makes me wonder, is blogging the appropriate forum for constructive debate (just wondering)?

  54. beetroot Avatar
    beetroot

    So Howard, you didn’t answer my question (I answered yours, after all):
    Where did the American people get the idea that Saddam was behind 9/11?
    (Note: I won’t make cheap juvenille jokes about smoking crack and hating America if you won’t.)

  55. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Unfortunately, my schedule only permits a drive-by comment — but unlike Oliver, I’ll tell you that upfront.
    Since the topic of the original post was Iraq, just thought I’d note today’s report in the New York Times:
    Investigators have discovered several mass graves in southern Iraq that are believed to contain the bodies of people killed by Saddam Hussein’s government, including one estimated to hold 5,000 bodies, Iraqi officials say.
    As for Venezuela, Spain recently sold Ä539.603 worth of chemical warfare agents and radioactive materials to Venezuela. Hugo Chavez, whose survival of the recall vote was likely due to fraud, has made it pretty clear where he stands on the world stage, pledging solidarity with Iran, calling Saddam Hussein “a brother,” himself “the second Fidel Castro of Latin America” and Gaddafiís Libya “a model of participatory democracy.” Chavez has also been accused of funding the Taliban after September 11th, as well as Marxist guerrillas in Colombia.
    Finally, just for fun, check out this round up of Bush (and Bush Administration) comments arguing for democracy in Iraq before the invasion. Turns out they referred to it quite a bit, so the reflexive Bush-haters need to go back to the “I know he didn’t really care about it because I have psychic powers” argument. Or the “he didn’t care because if he did because if he did he would invade places in which we have no national security interest instead and there can be only one reason to invade someplace and I get to decide what it is” argument.
    Have fun barking! I’ll try to check back in, but as I mentioned to franky before (at about 2 a.m., iirc) my time is tight for a while.

  56. franky Avatar
    franky

    A couple of quick points before I go out and start drinking vodka and tonics. Chavez did not fraudulently win the referendum, it was a fair vote and most of even the opposition have given up trying to claim fraud, with only the fringe continuing to repeat that lie (this is the same fringe that want Chavez removed by military coup and have resorted to terrorism including car bombs against government employees). He won because the poor (the vast majority of Venezuelans) believe he is trying to improve their lives. By coincidence I was in Venezuela for the coup that ousted Chavez, and a boyfriend of a friend of mine who was firmly opposed to Chavez was saying during the days of the coup “man, I hate Chavez and I want him out, but now I’m seeing who the opposition leaders are and I am definitely not with them” – of course this was not a conversion to Chavismo, but rather an abandonment of the corrupt opposition (who showed their true colors that day, going on the rampage in certain parts of Caracas and further delaying any elections). The fact is that the opposition know they are in the minority and they can’t stand the fact that having ruled Venezuela for decades they are now excluded from power.
    That Taliban story just seems made up by a guy trying to get a visa – so humanitarian aid was passed to Afghanistan before the 2001 attacks – how many other countries also sent money?
    Now, one point that is true is that Chavez is indeed supporting Colombian guerrillas. we don’t know how much nor to what extent nor what his motives are, but the evidence is pretty clear there is a connection.

  57. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Franky,
    Did you actually read the fraud link? Read up on Benford’s law and you might be less sure of your conclusion. Note that I did not flatly say that Chavez won the recall by fraud — only that it was probable. There is a decent scientific reason to think so. That’s a separate issue from the leaders of the opposition; I would not be surprised to learn they’re no sweethearts themselves.
    As for the pilot, I’m sure he wants a visa. But that doesn’t mean he’s making it up. It’s undisputed that Chavez gave money to the Taliban after 9/11, ostensibly for humanitarian aid. The only question is whether other money was given under the table.
    Either way, it’s refreshing that we agree that Hugo Chavez is not a nice guy and seems to be supporting the Columbian guerillas. So his purchase of chemical warfare agents and radioactive materials is a bit disturbing.
    I hope the V&Ts were good, though I tend to prefer my Vodka straight or in a screwdriver (a lot of homebrewed Russian vodka cries out for more than tonic).

  58. franky Avatar
    franky

    It’s undisputed Venezuela aided the Taliban? I follow Venezuela not closely but more than the normal person should have to, and I have never heard this. I’ve briefly looked on google (emphasis on briefly) and see no reports beyond that citing this one guy.
    The Venezuelan opposition’s leaders must be viewed the same as the extreme Cuban-Americans – liars who simply make shit up to discredit their nemesis (it’s also the same class, the rich, corrupt and indolent who lost power and have been bitching about it ever since – I don’t like Castro, but God forgive those Miami-Cubans take power in Cuba).
    I saw the complaints of fraud, but international observers said on the whole the vote went off well and fair. Further I’m convinced that there was no fraud just having seen the support Chavez has.
    The Colombian guerrillas will not use chemical weapons. They’ve never done so before and won’t in the future (basically, the FARC don’t want to be seen as a terrorist organization and have been very careful about how they fight Colombia’s civil war, usually – not always – trying to attack military objectives rather than civilian populations). Now, they have used particularly noxious contraptions (including explosive artifacts mixed with feces so any survivors of the blast then are infected). What Chavez may do is pass on some of the 100,000 rifles he’s purchased to the FARC, but with all the attention that has now come on this purchase, it would be retarded to do so.
    I do occassionaly go for the screwdriver, but sometimes the sugar from the orange juice gives me a bad hangover. Of course, the true way to ensure that your next morning is a heavy one is Vodka-Redbull.

  59. breakman Avatar
    breakman

    Not enough chastening going on these days