Libertarian liberation (on the Schiavo case)

Libertarian liberation (on the Schiavo case)

: On last night’s Connected on MSNBC in the segment about blogs and the Schiavo case, I noted that liberals hadn’t had much to say until Congress and Bush invaded and politicized the case (see Kevin Drum on a “nauseating …abuse of Congressional power,” and individ and Dude Abides: “Here we have another instance of our President taking a “complex issue” and boiling it down to black and white. Did we elect him President, or did we elect him Moralist?”). On the inappropriateness of Congress’ politicizing the matter, Ron Reagan and Monica Crowley agreed (as did I).

I also said that libertarians were siding with Michael Schiavo because they oppose government imposing unwanted treatment on us; I mentioned Samizdata and Virginia Postrel (who’d been on the network saying this shortly before I was on). Monica asked whether this was causing a split in the red-state blogs.

I replied that this case will prove libertarians’ argument that they’re not conservatives; they’re their own thing.

: Other links from all the MSNBC segments:

: Catscape saying that Scott Petersen will have a more merciful death (and he emailed me today wondering how the heck I had found him… I replied: Technorati and Pubsub).

: Wesley J Smith saying that it has been hard to kill Terri Schiavo because the videos of her on the internet humanized her.

: RepublicanUnionGuy wishing President Bush could issue an executive order sparing her life; if Clinton could pardon felons, he asks, can’t Bush do this? And he adds: “I thought I married badly.”

: La Shawn Barber wishing for a blogger swarm to somehow save Schiavo.

: Musing Minds asking: “What is the standard of proof required to ends someone’s life? What should it be? In the criminal context it’s “beyond a reasonable doubt”…. What is the weighty factor that sits opposite life on the scale of justice? What is the harm in keeping her alive?”

: Ace of Spades saying “this is not the typical right-to-die case.”

: Mansfield Fox wishing for a stay from the Supreme Court or for Jeb Bush to send in the National Guard (!).

: My stand on Schiavo, by the way: I agree with the liberal bloggers that Congress is way out of line. I agree with the libertarian bloggers that this has long been settled in the law and in the courts.

Personally, I’m still not sure where I would stand for myself. I do believe that we have the right not to have treatment. I do believe that the law is clear giving a spouse the right to decide in a case where clear instructions are not left. But on a medical level, I do think it’s cruel to starve a person but the answer is not, I think, to keep them alive in a vegetative state forever but instead to bring death quickly and mercifully with narcotics.

: UPDATE: The evening news just said that Congress is trying to keep her alive to push this to the federal courts. Congress was out of line and is now even further out of line.

: LATER: Tom Watson says:

Tom DeLay needs to keep Terri Schiavo alive in the worst way, because her tragic plight is a political feeding tube for his comatose, scandal-ridden career.

Jim Wolcott says:

Just as bad is the almost pornographic glee with which ghouls like Dan Burton and Bill Frist and Peggy Noonan insist that Schiavo is a conscious being because she smiles and responds. They’re treating this poor woman as if she were their personal pet rock. I suprised Peggy hasn’t urged canonization for Terri, to declare her the first martyred saint of euthanasia.

One of the side-effects of the 2004 election revealed by this despicable exploitative schmaltzfest is that the media has to tippytoe around making any disparaging remarks about religious fervor and its pathologies.

(By the way, in that same post, Wolcott proudly wears the mantle of Eeyore.)

128 responses to “Libertarian liberation (on the Schiavo case)”

  1. owlish Avatar

    On a medical level, doctors are supposed to “do no harm.” I agree, it makes more sense for her to die quickly than slowly, if she’s going to die, but actively killing her is considered different than not actively feeding her.

  2. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    No one knows how many people in a persistant vegetative state have had their feeding tubes removed since the Karen Quinlan debacle, but it is doubtless in the thousands if not tens of thousands.
    But it is only now, almost 30 years later, when the care of those in persistent vegetative states includes therapies that prevent them from turning into twisted grotesques because of muscular atrophy that we are revisiting this issue.
    There have doubtless been other instances with individual elements of the Terri Schiavo case, where families decided to end life support for the shell of people who died years ago despite the appearance of “normality” we see in the shell of Terri Schiavo. And there have doubtless been cases where families have been in conflict over the termination of life support for those who don’t “blink” like the shell of Schiavo does. Those cases, however, received little publicity because the moral vampyres of the right knew that they would lose in the courts of law and the court of public opinion.
    I strongly suspect that there are people who disagreed with the Quinlan decision, and have been looking for a “Terri Schiavo” to exploit for their own ideological purposes, regardless of the grief and suffering caused to her family members who are still alive.
    Terri Schiavo died 15 years ago. It doesn’t matter if they keep her shell alive, Terri Schiavo will still be dead forever. This isn’t about SChiavo, its about parents who can’t face the fact that their child is dead, and the craven and amoral exploiters of their grief.

  3. Yehudit Avatar

    Jeff, did you delete my comment?
    — no… jeff

  4. HA Avatar

    I’m surprised by the reaction of libertarians to this issue. The government didn’t get involved when Congress stepped in. Government has been involved in the Schiavo case for years in the judicial branch. Since when did libertarians begin to favor unelected judges over elected representatives?
    We have a dispute between two parties. Schiavo’s parents want her to live, and her husband wants her to die. Who decides? Government.

  5. Yehudit Avatar

    This was my comment:
    “I do believe that the law is clear giving a spouse the right to decide in a case where clear instructions are not left.”
    This spouse has a clear financial and emotional conflict of interest. He has refused to divorce her so her parents could take care of her, and they have repeatedly offered. He has lived with another woman and had children with her, but won’t let anyone else assume guardianship of his wife.
    “But on a medical level, I do think it’s cruel to starve a person but the answer is not, I think, to keep them alive in a vegetative state forever but instead to bring death quickly and mercifully with narcotics.”
    She has not been conclusively diagnosed as PVS. He was awarded a lot of money in the lawsuit over her brain damage, yet didn’t spend any on rehab therapy for her.
    I am a pro-choice pro-living will liberal and this case stinks to high heaven.

  6. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    “I agree with the libertarian bloggers that this has long been settled in the law and in the courts.”
    Son, don’t bump your head…

  7. A.W. of Freespeech.com Avatar
    A.W. of Freespeech.com

    My view is, bluntly, that this dangerously close to a T-4 style euthanasia murder. mind you, i support a right to die, under the right circumstances. But for me, the right circumstances here are:
    1) all facts, including her wish to die, are proven beyond a reasonable doubt,
    2) the judge actually f—ing sees her before he signs off on killing her, and
    3) she is truly unconscious.
    None of those conditions have been met.
    And yes, i couldn’t agree more on the method. Hell, a bullet in the head is better than this. She is seen on videos laughing. Laughing. Seeing that, i am convinced that you cannot rightfully kill her.

  8. chuck Avatar

    So give her over to the care of her parents. What’s so difficult about that? Why does the husband’s “right” to let her die override her parents willingness to care for her? The judge has been a bit of an ass in this case, and Michael doesn’t seem like a guy whose only consideration is his wife’s wellbeing.
    I don’t have a problem with suicide, narcotic or otherwise, of people suffering from cancer and such. Many wish for it in the last days. But I think the judge has been way out of line in making the decision. At this point I am hoping for a filibuster override and the wholesale appointment of conservative judges to the federal bench. Problems, sure, but different problems. And I used to be a Democrat.

  9. plnuge Avatar

    Jeff and others. One thing that has been VERY poorly explained in the media is that Michael is NOT the one making the decision anymore. The ONLY serious legal issue in this case was whether Schiavo was in a state that she demonstrably had expressed a wish not to be maintained in. A court guardian was appointed to make that determination, and it was made. It was completely out of Michael’s hands as soon as that hearing began, and the results of that hearing have been upheld over and over and over. And in fact, he was NOT the only one that testified about her wish not to be maintained: that decision was made based on multiple testimonies plus a consideration of evidence about her religious beliefs, values, and personality.
    Furthermore, Terri has worse than your average PVS (which is itself worse than a coma: believe it or not, but her motion is a clinical sign of the complete destruction of her higher brain functions which normally supress the characteristic reflex movements shown). Her brain isn’t merely damaged: most of it is plain missing. The idea that she didn’t have enough therapy is nonsense: no therapy can regrow dead and decayed brain tissue. Even so, Michael tried for four years to find some way. It quickly became obvious to everyone but her parents that she was gone.

  10. plunge Avatar

    Oh, and that means the “give her to the care of her parents” solution is a non-starter. The courts have ruled that she would refuse treatment in this situation. Given that, doctors are bound by law to respect that and stop treatment. The legal authority here is not Michael, but the court acting on its ruling.

  11. Matthew Goggins Avatar

    Terry Schiavo would have died a long time ago if it weren’t for her parents.
    Ms. Schiavo doesn’t appear to be in a Persistent Vegetative State (PVS), yet Judge Greer ruled that she is. He made a judicial finding of fact that she is PVS, which means that it is almost impossible for her parents to get the state of Florida to acknowledge that she is not PVS.
    I hope the Congress or somebody can help Ms. Schiavo stay alive, because she does not seem to be PVS.
    On the other hand, I wonder is Ms. Schiavo is happy to be alive. I also wonder if Ms. Schiavo, if she knew what was going to happen to her ahead of time, I wonder if she would have preferred to live as she lives now or to die.
    Ms. Schiavo’s husband insists that he knows that Ms. Schiavo would have chosen to die. I don’t know that he is correct, or even being honest about it. I don’t even know what should be done if it could be established somehow that he is correct. If someone is determined to jump off a bridge, are we obligated to stand by and do nothing? Are we obligated to help someone who is trying to jump off a bridge? It’s a poor analogy, except that it cuts to the heart of this case: even if we knew exactly what Ms. Schiavo wanted before she was brain-damaged, to what extent is that binding on her current condition?
    What if Ms. Schiavo was dead-set against living as an incapacitated adult-turned-infant before she became one, but now that she is one, she wants to survive and keep on going? Does the old Ms. Schiavo have the right to terminate the new Ms. Schiavo?
    And what if we don’t know what she wanted, or we’re not quite sure? On what basis should we decide what to do?
    This case seems way too messy to just say, oh, the husband is the guardian, let him decide. So I think Ms. Schiavo’s parents should be allowed to care for her and provide for her care.
    But that doesn’t really settle all the questions this case raises. There are thousands and thousands of people who are severely disabled to the point of being on life support. Only a fraction have living wills, what is to be done?

  12. plunge Avatar

    “Ms. Schiavo doesn’t appear to be in a Persistent Vegetative State (PVS), yet Judge Greer ruled that she is.”
    Read the actual court transcripts. All the supposedly “unanswered” questions are answered: about her condition, about why she moves and after weeks and weeks of footage can be made to seem like she is responding in some way that approximates a conscious response. But a few media clips engineered to play on the emotions is not the same thing as a parade of doctors observing her over time and looking at her brain. They found that none of her movements display evidence of cognition or consistent response.
    “Ms. Schiavo’s husband insists that he knows that Ms. Schiavo would have chosen to die. I don’t know that he is correct, or even being honest about it. I don’t even know what should be done if it could be established somehow that he is correct.”
    A duly instated court of Florida has ruled that this is, in fact, correct.
    “If someone is determined to jump off a bridge, are we obligated to stand by and do nothing? Are we obligated to help someone who is trying to jump off a bridge? It’s a poor analogy, except that it cuts to the heart of this case: even if we knew exactly what Ms. Schiavo wanted before she was brain-damaged, to what extent is that binding on her current condition?”
    It is a very poor analougy, because it misses the point that patients are legally allowed to refuse care, even if it would prolong their life. They are allowed to make living wills to that effect, and they are allowed to express this wish clearly enough that a court can concede to it. Note that the appeals court argued that we should always err on the side of life, but that in THIS case, there was convincing evidence that Mrs. Schiavo would have refused to be maintained in such a state.
    “This case seems way too messy to just say, oh, the husband is the guardian, let him decide.”
    Well, good, because luckily, that’s NOT WHAT HAPPENED ANYWAY.
    This website is very instructive: it has all the court rulings and answers lots of questions objectively.

  13. rick gregory Avatar
    rick gregory

    I’m not going to comment on whether Ms Schiavo is in a PVS or not, etc. We don’t know and don’t have the medical expertise to determine this, esp at a remove.
    But why, when it suits their prejudices, do the Republican’s curse the federal governments interference in local issue, saying that this or that issue should be decided on a state or local level, but now, all of a sudden, the principle that is so dear to them is cast aside? Could it be… self-serving political greed? Or merely hypocrisy?

  14. tim wg Avatar

    I don’t understand the libertarian position.
    This is a death sentence. When you’re dead, no one can say what rights are being violated because you’re dead.
    Terry Schiavo had no living will. You’re to rely on her “non-committed” husband to make the “intimate” decisions on their relationship despite the broken covenant.
    Then again, does her husband have the sole right? Maybe the courts have ruled, but no one is ever truly free to make all decisions on anyone.
    Parents can’t prevent children from getting abortions.
    Husbands can’t beat their wives, vice versa.
    The government has an interest in all stages of people’s lives. This is a moral decision. The courts have decided to let her husband be the arbiter. It doesn’t seem the morally correct decision.

  15. chuck Avatar

    Could it be… self-serving political greed? Or merely hypocrisy?
    Normal politics. The Democrats are the same — few angels in that game.
    I read plunge’s link and it is informative. There seems little question that Terri is in PVS, and indeed there *was* a CAT scan performed back in the early 90’s. The fact that Michael was awarded $300K and $700K was set aside to care for Terri is not a settlement that I agree with — the claim was that the doctors should have diagnosed her bulimia. Hello, she didn’t know? As the court indicates in its initial decision, money muddies the water, as it often does. Not knowing any of the people involved I can’t say who, if anyone, was out of line. In anycase, there is some evidence that Terri expressed a wish not to exist in a vegitative state; on the other hand, she really never seems to have sat down and discussed it with anyone, she was only 27 after all. Given that the court had to make the decision, they probably made the right one. Whether or not Michael should have simply divorced her and left her to her parents is another guestion. I don’t know his motives, and they could have been any of several, some praiseworthy, others not. So there it is. Perhaps it is all best left to those closer to the action.

  16. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    Routine, standard tests that should have been performed were not.
    A plaintiff with a direct financial stake in her death is calling for her life.
    An expert witness with a personal political agenda appears to have lied under oath.
    And a court system is hiding behind a previous ruling to ignore new evidence.
    I find it remarkable that people who would be marching outside the prison gates to protest the execution of a convicted murderer under these circumstances are screaming just as loudly for this woman to die.

  17. plunge Avatar

    “You’re to rely on her “non-committed” husband to make the “intimate” decisions on their relationship despite the broken covenant.”
    He didn’t make the decision. He started a hearing process whereby a court made the determination of what her wishes were and appointed a guardian (a judge) to oversee the process. The fact that people keep trying to misrepresent this to smear him by reference to his new family is absurd. His wife is dead, and only the deeply deluded deny it. By not divorcing her, he is carrying out her interests, not his own. People have offerred him MILLIONS to just walk away and let her parents cotinue to flog her body indefinately. He has refused. He has every reason to walk away, but he won’t. All the money out of this that hasn’t gone to Terri’s care has gone to charity. The people questioning his motives have presented precisely no evidence whatsoever to support their slander of his character. Even if he did get any money out of this, what principle are you basing this on: should no one ever get life insurance after the death of a spouse because that proves they all wanted their spouse to die? Or should only people who Republicans decide to make a dog-and-pony show out of not get life insurance?
    “The government has an interest in all stages of people’s lives. This is a moral decision.”
    It is a completely routine and legal fact in all 50 states that patients can refuse care, or leave wishes to that effect in the event of severe brain damage as to what care is permissible. The ONLY question of any merit here is whether Terri expressed a wish not to recieve care in such circumstances. A several duly appointed courts in Florida, after extensive hearings, concluded that the evidence was overwhelming enough to overcome a presumption of maintaining life.
    “Routine, standard tests that should have been performed were not.”
    Cite? The woman has NO CEREBRAL CORTEX. Have you seen the scans? Her skull is mostly filled with fluid, not brain tissue. The parents have requested an MRI. But even if they got it (after the invasive removal of the things that prevent it), it would show the same darn thing that they refuse to believe all over again: the key portions of her brain that allow cognition are gone.
    “A plaintiff with a direct financial stake in her death is calling for her life.”
    What stake? Cite? He’s calling for her interests to be respected as she would have wanted: something that we don’t have to just take his word on, but also the word of several other people as well as repeated court rulings that examined her life and expressed values extensively.
    “An expert witness with a personal political agenda appears to have lied under oath.”
    This one I haven’t heard yet: cite?
    “And a court system is hiding behind a previous ruling to ignore new evidence.”
    What new evidence? The court has repeatedly granted new hearings and examinations. But it’s all bleeping pointless, because the woman has no cerebral cortex!!!

  18. Matthew Goggins Avatar

    Plunge,
    Thanks for referring me to the website Abstract Appeal. It is a great source of information and documentation for the case, and I’ve just spent some time pouring over some of the linked documents.
    First comment: my comment above (at 12:34 a.m.) was more philosophical or moral than legal. I’m more interested in what a just or good outcome would be, than in what outcome the law dictates. But of course, I would expect and greatly hope that the correct legal decision would also be a good and just decision as well.
    Second comment: I’m still not convinced that Ms. Schiavo is PVS. But I admit I don’t know enough about PVS or about Ms. Schiavo’s condition to make an informed judgement.
    Yet, my impression from reading Judge Greer’s decision is that he doesn’t know enough about Ms. Schiavo’s condition or about PVS to make an informed judgement either!
    That’s just my impression, and I could easily be wrong, but it is my impression nonetheless.
    Third comment: I believe that Judge Greer, even if he was correct in judging that Ms. Schiavo is PVS, has still made an incorrect legal ruling regarding her care.
    He ruled that he found “clear and convincing evidence” that Ms. Schiavo had orally expressed her wishes not to be indefinitely hooked up to life support in an incapacitated state. I think he has made an egregious error here.
    Ms. Schiavo made some relatively casual remarks to three people that the idea of being on life support was not acceptable to her. So Judge Greer said that these comments showed she didn’t want her life extended by extraordinary means with poor quality of life. Well no s–t, Judge Sherlock! That’s a lifestyle that’s way down on the list for everybody I know too! But those comments are in no way, shape, or form sufficient to indicate what she would have wanted to put down in a living will, even assuming that the alleged quotes were accurate. Moreover, these remarks were all in response to some other people’s situations, and were more an emotional comment or reaction as opposed to any considered kind of policy or commitment to any course of action.
    There was really a rush to judgement on this point. And under Florida law, in the absence of clear and convincing evidence to the contrary, a surrogate guardian’s default decision must be in favor of life support.

  19. tim wg Avatar

    By not divorcing her, he is carrying out her interests, not his own.
    I’m don’t agree. It doesn’t sound like a long marriage. Terry’s parents knew her much longer and they have a bigger interest in keeping her alive.
    Circumstances change. Her death would be pernament. It would be a shame if her death is later regretted.
    Like some others have said, criminals have more rights than Terry.

  20. tim wg Avatar

    When I said “It doesn’t sound like a long marriage.”, I meant it doesn’t sound like they were marriaged a long time prior to her illness.

  21. plunge Avatar

    “Circumstances change. Her death would be pernament. It would be a shame if her death is later regretted.”
    Her death is ALREADY permanent. Her brain is gone. Brain tissue does not regrow in adults, does not regrow to this degree in anyone, and even if we tommorow discovered some miracle treatment that did so, it would be no different than a brain transplant, because all the memories, personality, all the functions of cognition: they were housed in places that no longer exist and cannot be recovered.
    Read this account from her guardian (the one that ACTUALLY made the decision, as opposed to the lie that her husband just made it on his own)
    http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11175595.htm

  22. plunge Avatar

    “He ruled that he found “clear and convincing evidence” that Ms. Schiavo had orally expressed her wishes not to be indefinitely hooked up to life support in an incapacitated state. I think he has made an egregious error here.”
    And egregious error that the appeals court agreed with, and the supreme court refused to revisit or question further. Again, I really suggest you read the article I linked below (registration required). Here are some key exerpts.
    “One thing Wolfson never doubted was that for all their intense, mutual antagonism, both Michael Schiavo and Terri’s parents love and adore her.
    She was cared for incredibly well, Wolfson said. Her hair was always combed, and after 15 years of being incapacitated, she never developed a bedsore. In fact, Wolfson said until about seven years ago, Michael Schiavo had Terry’s makeup and hair done regularly, and her clothes changed every day – to the point that hospice staff protested that he was being overly demanding about her care.”
    Man: sounds like Michael hated her guts and just wanted to get rid of her and deliberately let her care be neglected! (actually, that someone can go for 15 years in that state without a bedsore is a sign of phenomenally good care)
    “But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson’s pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign.
    “I felt like there was something distinctive about whoever Terri is,” said Wolfson. “But I was not clear that it was there, inside the vessel.”
    Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. “Terri does not speak,” he said. “To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction.””

  23. Yehudit Avatar

    “Bill Frist and Peggy Noonan insist that Schiavo is a conscious being because she smiles and responds.”
    Sounds like a good definition to me.
    So when is that MRI going to be scheduled?

  24. Yehudit Avatar

    “By not divorcing her, he is carrying out her interests, not his own.”
    Since he is the only source for knowledge of that “intention,” and since he stands to gain financially from her death, his claim simply can’t be taken at face value. Why is this so hard to understand?

  25. Matthew Goggins Avatar

    Plunge,
    I am willing to stipulate, for the sake of argument, that Ms. Schiavo is PVS (although I think she may not be).
    I am also willing to stipulate that all the parties love Ms. Schiavo and believe they are looking out for her best interests (which I think is very likely the case).
    Yet under Florida law, there is not clear and convincing evidence that Ms. Schiavo had indicated her preferences. And Florida law is very clear, that lacking such evidence, a surrogate guardian is charged with deciding in favor of continuing life support. This is mandated by law.
    Appeals courts are normally quite reluctant to reverse a trial court’s finding of fact. This reluctance is not evidence that they agree with the trial court. It is merely evidence that they see no judicial misconduct.
    The facts and the Judge Greer’s decision are as I characterized them in my last post. They speak for themselves, and they say “Egregious Error”.
    I think Judge Greer means well, and has comported himself honorably, but his ruling is not supported by the evidence he cites in his opinion.

  26. plunge Avatar

    “Since he is the only source for knowledge of that “intention,””
    You are speaking in ignorance (albiet, probably not your fault: someone probably intentionally misled you). He is not the only source. He was not the only one to testify to this effect. Nor was the testimony the only evidence considered: the judge also examined evidence of her life, her expressed values, and so on, as well as weighing it against her parents’ testimony.
    “and since he stands to gain financially from her death, his claim simply can’t be taken at face value. Why is this so hard to understand?”
    Again, please explain the huge windfall he is so obviously seeking to gain by passing up millions of dollars so as to see to her wishes and then send the rest of the money to charity. If you can’t provide a cite for this, then just admit what you are doing: making up nasty motives for the man because you don’t like the idea that someone can refuse medical care.
    Even if this WAS an issue, it is totally irrelevant. Michael has no actual say on the refusal care issue: the court rulings are in effect, and a third party was assigned to evaluate her status as well as her wishes and made a determination that still stands.
    “Sounds like a good definition to me.”
    It’s a terribly stupid definition, made in either ignorance of the situation or simply a will to mislead people. She doesn’t respond (read the piece again, please), and her movements are a sign not that she has cognition, but rather that her higher brain is SO completely destroyed that it can no longer supress these movements, which are characteristic not of cognition but of the motor reflex of the few remaining sections of her brain. It’s counter-intuitive, but if she was unconscious and in a coma, then it might be reasonable to think that she had some capacity left, because that would at least show that her brain was responding to the damage by trying to heal itself. The fact that she swings in and out of non-awake, non-sleep is far more indactive of higher brain death, given her clinical findings, than it is evidence of any remaining conscious experience.

  27. plunge Avatar

    “Appeals courts are normally quite reluctant to reverse a trial court’s finding of fact. This reluctance is not evidence that they agree with the trial court. It is merely evidence that they see no judicial misconduct.”
    Did you read their ruling? It certainly sounds like they agreed on more than just that:
    Here they note that the standard is as you say, very high:
    “The clear and convincing standard of proof, while very high, permits a decision in the face of inconsistent or conflicting evidence. See In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So. 2d at 273.
    In Browning, we stated:
    In making this difficult decision, a surrogate decisionmaker should err on the side of lifeÖ In cases of doubt, we must assume that a patient would choose to defend life in exercising his or her right of privacy.
    In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d at 273. We reconfirm today that a court’s default position must favor life.”
    And here they agree that the trial judge did have clear and convincing evidence:
    “In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.”
    You are welcome to continue to aruge that there was egregious error, but given that the trial judge has repeatedly ruled otherwise, and the appeals court agrees with him, and the supreme court does not think they have anything to add to the case, it seems that there is a pretty darn legitimate case to be made that this was in fact the correct finding. What are you asking be done: that we toss any semblance of due process out the window and let Congress decide the truth of legal findings?

  28. Matthew Goggins Avatar

    Plunge,
    I yield the floor for the remainder of the night to you. You raise valid points that I would like (and can) rebut, but only after I go to sleep.
    One last thought: I believe Judge Greer made the wrong decision under Florida law, but I don’t believe that means Ms. Schiavo’s life should be indefinitely extended with feeding tubes. Although that is the conclusion I reach for other reasons.
    As for what Congress should do about it: I think some kind of ad hoc legislation giving jurisdiction to the federal courts might be appropriate. Such a move would likely ensure that due process concerns would be met.
    Oh, and one more thing: you have yet to directly rebut my argument as to why the “clear and convincing evidence” standard was not met. You have only resorted to citing the authority of the appeals court. Maybe you should just sleep on it though, I’m not gonna read no more good night…

  29. Clyde Avatar

    All I can say is that I think that Michael Schiavo is a reprehensible human being. I also think that it is inconsistent that murderers on death row in Florida get a humane execution by lethal injection while Terri Schiavo will be cruelly starved to death.
    And Wolcott? Isn’t he that prick with ears who roots for hurricanes and other natural disasters? A pox on him!

  30. chuck Avatar

    Again, please explain the huge windfall he is so obviously seeking to gain by passing up millions of dollars so as to see to her wishes and then send the rest of the money to charity.
    As I understand it, the decision is no longer Michael’s, so offers of money would really make no difference. Someone will receive the remainder of Terri’s estate, and that is the money in guestion. All a divorce would do at this point is give the money to Terri’s parents instead of Michael, and that is the only thing Michael can effect. As I say, I don’t know Michael’s motives on this score, and more particularly, his motives back when the initial petition was made.
    As to Terri’s wishes, I think that she never really expressed them clearly and definitively. Whether or not her casual remarks and the circumstancial evidence is sufficient to the conclusion is something that folks are going to argue about simply because it *is* iffy, and many are going to conclude that in that situation the judge should have erred on the side of life.

  31. plunge Avatar

    “I think some kind of ad hoc legislation giving jurisdiction to the federal courts might be appropriate. Such a move would likely ensure that due process concerns would be met.”
    Now that’s an ironic statement. The federal legislature is planning to violate the Constitution with a special, rushed bill meant to subvert a legal finding in one _particular_ individual case (which has been outlawed since Adams) in a state case. And that’s… due process. Right. The fact is, all that is happening now is what’s BEEN happening: stalling for more and more time. The legal issue was over and decided a long time ago. But the billions of dollars now in play on this issue from right-wing lobby groups are churning out legal briefs at unprecedented rates. I’ve already documented that most of the right wing pundits deployed to speak about the case have grossly mislead people and misrepresented the situation. This whole thing is a grotesque, immoral farce.
    “Oh, and one more thing: you have yet to directly rebut my argument as to why the “clear and convincing evidence” standard was not met. You have only resorted to citing the authority of the appeals court.”
    You haven’t made any argument other than you aren’t convinced by the testimony (which I doubt you’ve read in full anyway). I haven’t read it all either, but I don’t find anything that raises bells for me, and neither, apparently did the appeals court. I’m sorry, but that’s good enough for me unless you can raise any actual issue other than “I don’t feel it’s enough.” Oral report is all that was available to the courts. And yet even acknowledging that a high burden must be met, they ruled that it was, indeed, met.
    Oh, and amusingly enough, liberal bloggers have now uncovered the fact that George “I think we need to err on the side of life” Bush as governor signed a bill allowing hospitals to discontinue maintinence care over the objections of the family if they consider the treatment to be nonbeneficial and the family can no longer pay. I guess rich people don’t just get special bankruptcy shelters that the poor can’t afford. They also don’t have to worry about Bush’s Texan hospitals pulling the plug on them as long as they can pay.

  32. plunge Avatar

    “As I understand it, the decision is no longer Michael’s, so offers of money would really make no difference. Someone will receive the remainder of Terri’s estate, and that is the money in guestion.”
    There is 50,000 left, and the settlement was earmarked for her care and legal defense. Michael is personally broke from fighting the millions upon millions of dollars being thrown at his wife in legal briefs, filed in droves by seemingly every single conservative lobby org under the sun every time anyone moves a muscle.
    http://blog.bioethics.net/2005/03/have-conservatives-bought-bioethics.html
    There is no life insurance. There is no estate. The idea that he is fighting for money is a plain absurdity.
    “As to Terri’s wishes, I think that she never really expressed them clearly and definitively. Whether or not her casual remarks and the circumstancial evidence is sufficient to the conclusion is something that folks are going to argue about simply because it *is* iffy, and many are going to conclude that in that situation the judge should have erred on the side of life.”
    That’s the same reasoning that the appeals court used. And they found that the judge had convincing evidence to establish the claim and meet this very high burden. But whatever people argue over, the legal issue was decided according to the laws of the state and all appeals were exhausted.

  33. plunge Avatar

    Look, I’m going to bed for the night too. But lets make one thing clear. There are legitimate cases of hard to decide refusal of care issues: usually actual comas, where the brain is intact, but just can’t quite regain consciousness. There are times when courts mess up, doctors are wrong.
    But this isn’t one of those cases. This whole thing is a tragic, sickening farce. If you’ve been following the media coverage and what the pundits have been saying, and then came here and read the actual court transcripts and real facts of the case, you’ll have to at least concede that most of the extreme outrage here has been manufactured by grossly misrepresenting the medical and legal facts of this situation. There are litterally billions of right-wing dollars invested in whipping up a frenzy over this issue. In Congress, the furor is being led by a Congressman trying to draw attention away from massive ethics investigations, who has only escaped censure because he’s too powerful to be interally criticized. In the Senate, Republicans have already been caught with a memo that sounds a little too excited about the political implications of the case. The supposed experts that claim that Schiavo isn’t in a PVS or that she can recover are either quacks, or simply don’t address any of the key facts of the case, going almost entirely on the footage of Terri moving, which has been explained many times by the court, the primary advocate, and others, not to actually be indicative of any “response” or cognition.
    Maybe you are on the right. Maybe the right is, usually… right. But not in this case. People have deluded themselves. And they are doing themselves, their political cause, their party, and Terri Schiavo a real disservice by maintaining this gross abuse of due process and federalism and, most importantly, of Terri Schiavo’s deteriorating body, wishes, and dignity. Public opinion is quickly turning against the idea of keeping her alive for no purpose, with no brain. Her parents at one point wanted to have all her limbs amputated and her put on a vent so as to avoid any infection and proactively prolong her completely docile and reflexive life: they are in denial. They are being led around and abused by powerful, well funded groups with an agenda that is much bigger than this case, and is abusing it horribly. It’s tragic.
    And the saddest thing of all is that, in the end, the only person that will not feel any suffering from any of this… is Terri.

  34. chuck Avatar

    Well, we have this:
    she was cared for incredibly well, Wolfson said. Her hair was always combed, and after 15 years of being incapacitated, she never developed a bedsore.
    and then we have this:
    Terri has also suffered from what many professionals would regard as neglect. She had to have several teeth extracted last year because of severe decay. This decay was caused by a lack of basic dental hygiene, such as tooth-brushing. She also developed decubitus (skin) ulcers on her buttocks and thighs. These ulcers can be prevented by a simple regimen of regular turning: a basic nursing task that any certified nurseís aide can perform. The presence of these easily preventable ulcers is a classic sign of neglect
    So the “facts” are in dispute. I’m am not willing to call it a day yet. The evidence isn’t in.

  35. plunge Avatar

    Well, I provided cites for my “facts,” how about that? Althought the timeframes appear to differ: Wolfson did his evaluation quite some time ago now: these claims appear to be very recent. The evidence was already in back when Wolpert examined the case. The facts said that she was gone, and nothing would bring her back, and she would not have wanted to be mainted for years and years hence.
    Since that time, even if she had fantastic care, it would still be remarkable if she didn’t develop these sorts of problems. Christopher Reeve, for instance, had the best care money could buy, and he still died from basically what amounted to infections from bedsores. The human body isn’t built to survive immobility very well: even muscle the best therapy cannot replace conscious, active enervation. The human mouth isn’t built to survive an inability to swallow ones own saliva: it pools and etches away and breeds bacteria that can’t be fully destroyed by brushing (and they can’t use muthwash obviously). These sorts of things are certainly legitimate signs of neglect in temporarily incapacitated people like coma patients or the elderly, but at 15 years and counting, they are an inevitability of the long term situation. Ask any medical proffesional if they think an immobile person can be maintained for 15 years and reasonably be expected to suffer no infections, sores, tooth decay, and so on, even under the best care.

  36. plunge Avatar

    This is the very definition of grasping at straws. You actually want to cite “facts” in this case? It’s been clear from the start that the facts were either deliberately misstated or simply mangled out of completely an callous disinterest for the actual situation. The result is a circus of misplaced emotion, vicious and completely unsupported slander, and idiots parading around trying to arrest judges.
    http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/18/Tampabay/One_by_one__options_s.shtml
    “Members in both chambers were clearly not familiar with all details of the case. They mispronounced her name. They proclaimed she was not in a vegetative state, even though experts say she is and a court agreed. They claimed she did not receive certain brain scans when she had. They wrongly claimed no judge had even granted a family member removal of a feeding tube.”
    Sounds like everyone really has a clear idea what’s going on and are acting on a good appreciation of the situation, as opposed to a psychotic feeding frenzy of media soundbites! What’s really embarrasing is that actual members of Congress have now several times over demonstrated outright ignorance about such basic legal issues as retroactive legislation and the fact that Congress can’t pass special case laws directed at single person, let alone change the outcome of a court ruling in a state court after the fact. As a result, we may well end up with mangled, nonsensical, and poorly thought out legislation that screws up the living wills and wishes of thousands of people… but doesn’t affect Terri Schiavo at all. Court after court in the last few days is striking down all manner of crazy petitions and legal arguments. It’s nothing short of embarassing.

  37. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    I’d like to thank plunge for his extraordinary efforts in this thread that have effectively rebutted the lies and misinformation being spread about the Shiavo case by the right wing political necrophiliacs. Terri Schiavo is dead, and has been for quite some time.
    And although I understand and feel compassion for her parents and their efforts, the exploitation of Schiavo by the far right is disgustingly hypocritical. These are the same people who just voted to cut Medicaid, and deny medical treatment to poor children and seniors — while providing ten times as much money in tax cuts to fat cats.

  38. somerville Avatar
    somerville

    In his lawsuit, Michael Schiavo got a million dollars which was supposed to go towards therapy. When he got the money, he suddenly remembered that Terri had once said that she did not want to be kept alive under these circumstances. I find it to be too much of a weird coincidence that a 25 year old woman had even talked about such a thing.
    Judge Greer based his decision on Michael Schiavo’s word that Terri had said this. The only people who backed him, were – and this is a big coincidence – his brother and his wife.
    There is nothing in writing from Terri on this subject. Why on earth Greer would take a man’s word who has two children with another woman, I don’t know.
    There was a woman in 1989 on Long Island who was pregnant when she was hit by a car. She was in a coma for a long time. The husband divorced her. (She did later come out of the coma.) Why can’t Michael Schiavo divorce Terri ?

  39. chuck Avatar

    Plunge,
    Sure, I would like to get hold of the facts, I’m a suspicious guy and old enough to have see some pretty shitty things. I sense that my own emotional involvement in this case is less than your own. In particular, I haven’t disparaged and dismissed whole groups of people and their motives. I just want to have a good idea of what’s going on. So thanks for the information, but please don’t go out of your way to guess at my motives.

  40. Ruth Avatar

    Plunge:
    Many thanks. As new parents we are told that ‘smiles’ in infants are often meerly the reactions to stomach pain. In Ms. Schiavo’s case, it has been established she has no remaining cortex. Showing videos of her ‘smiling’ are so horribly manipulative – as with animals’ smiles, we see our own imaginings of feeling associated with entirely other motivations.
    I repeat myself, but an elderly relative of mine ripped out her IVs to end her own suffering. A catholic hospital cruelly reinserted the tubes to prolong her suffering and promote their own religious beliefs. She was buried in an open coffin by her daughters who wanted everyone who had loved her to see how she had suffered, which was evident on her poor face.
    Let Ms. Schiavo go, and the Congress is taking the place of that hospital that can only value its own religious beliefs, no value of life itself. Prolonging suffering is not anything you will find in the Bible.

  41. JennyD Avatar

    If Terry Schiavo were a migrant worker, how much involvement would anyone have in this case? They would have pulled her feeding tube a long time ago.
    This hypocrisy is ridiculous. Her parents are delusional, loving a shell of a woman. Her husband is trying to do the right thing. As for insurance, where do you think the money is coming from to pay for her care? Imagine if all the money spent to care for this shell of a woman were spent on preventive care for poor kids?
    If you want to know why medical care chews up so many resoures, here’s a reason. Because irrational people use every possible avenue to keep the dying and dead alive. It’s the unintended consequence of advanced medical technology.
    Also, don’t get this mixed up with red state/blue state issues. If bloggers and others start to polarize this, it will really diminish the otherwise growing complexity of thought that exists out here.

  42. tom Avatar

    The woman’s cerebral cortex (the person) has degenerated and is now liquid, replaced by spinal fluid.
    There is no therapy to rebuild this lost brain. She is a vegetable in the same sense that a plant may turn toward the light or flop over — involvuntary movement.
    There are about 1000 other people in this country in the same state, and decisions like this are made every day by anguished families.
    Terri is not living. The President of the United States should not be pandering to political absolutists who want to keep her tissue alive for their own satisfaction. Will he do this for the other thousand, too?

  43. Kat Avatar

    I agree with Chuck. I, too, am very suspicious of Michael.
    Michael:
    * Has not allowed therapy or rehabilitation since 1992, despite medical records indicating Terri is responsive.
    * Has prevented swallowing tests or swallowing therapy since 1993, despite medical testimony Terri can be taught to eat.
    * Ordered caretakers not to clean Terri’s teeth since 1995, resulting in removal of five teeth in April 2004.
    * Placed Terri in hospice in 2000, despite the fact she is not terminally ill.
    * Refuses to allow Terri to leave her room. She has not been outside since 2000.
    * Ordered doctors not to treat Terri when she had a life threatening infection in 1993 and 1995.

  44. Ruth Avatar

    Interestingly, a post that is all about keeping the feeding tubes in a brain dead person is getting all these hits, while a person who can’t blog at all because of economic necessities isn’t attracting interest. See Help the Afghan Blogger, please. Life is important, it’s Palm Sunday, let’s celebrate life.

  45. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    If Terry Schiavo’s condition has deteriorated in five years during which her loving husband has refused all stabilizing therapy, how does that not make him guilty of attempted murder?

  46. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    Dear Jeff ó As Paul_Luklasiak above just demonstrated, liberals had nothing to say until the “rightwing necrophiliacs” gave them an excuse to swing their own ideological hammer.

  47. Matthew Goggins Avatar

    Plunge, and everyone else,
    I believe that reasonable people will disagree on what should be done with Terri Schiavo.
    Fifteen years ago, due to a bulimic lack of potassium in her blood, her heart went on the fritz and her brain was severely damaged.
    In a matter of minutes, she went from a fully-functioning 27-year old person to something akin to a crippled brain-damaged baby. The prospects for recovery are effectively zero, but it is impossible to rule out some sort of improvement. Yet it is clear that no one will ever be able to bring back the person Ms. Schiavo used to be.
    What is in dispute is what would Ms. Schiavo have instructed her health-care proxy to do.
    Judge Greer ruled that there was clear and convincing evidence that Ms. Schiavo would have insisted on no feeding tubes.
    He cites his own evaluation of Ms. Schiavo’s values and ethics based on testimony from family and friends. But he seems to treat a handful of comments that Ms. Schiavo made to three people as dispositive.
    Even if these comments had been videotaped, there is no way that they can be considered dispositive. They were isolated comments made in response to specific topics of conversation. Ms. Schiavo had no way of knowing that they would later be interpreted as a legal statement of her intentions. Interpreting these statements as proof of intent is heavily speculative.
    It seems to me that Judge Greer is not actually being candid in representing how he assessed Ms. Schiavo’s wishes. It seems to me he is merely giving deference to Ms. Schiavo’s husband’s position as legal guardian, and the rest of the testimony he is deeming de facto clear and convincing based on the fact that he is convinced that that testimony is correct.
    Judge Greer certainly has the legal authority to act in this manner, and perhaps he is morally correct to do so as well.
    But Congress certainly has the legal authority to vote that this process violates Ms. Schiavo’s civil rights, and to vote that federal courts have jurisdiction. And perhaps Congress would be morally correct to do so as well.
    If I were in Judge Greer’s position, I would have decided to get more diagnostic information (such as an MRI), and I would have ruled there was no clear and convincing oral evidence that Ms. Schiavo had expressed her preferences.
    If I were in Mr. Schiavo’s position, I would acknowledge that I was de facto married to someone else now, and allow Ms. Schiavo’s parents to become her legal guardians.

  48. SloppyDawg Avatar
    SloppyDawg

    From my own experience:
    My sister Shirley, a type I diabetic since the age of 7, suffered a massive heart attack (her third) in mid-May, 2002. She, like Terri Schiavo, was in a PVS.
    As a quick aside here, I’d like to tell all who say that Terri isn’t or doesn’t seem to be in a persistant vegetative state that you are delusional. If you have no medical background (I don’t) or have never seen or spent time with someone who is PVS (I have), please keep your opinion on this to yourself. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
    Shirley remained in ICU for three weeks. After that time, the entire family conferenced with one of her neurologists and my brother-in-law made the decision to pull nutrition and hydration. We were told by her doctors that although she was starving, she would be made comfortable. However, Shirley died a few days later from respiratory complications. She was a week shy of her 44th birthday.
    To be sure: Shirley did not leave a living will, but because of what she knew about her disease, she made absolutely sure that everyone in the family knew her wishes.
    But the decision had been made, by my brother-in-law, and we stood by it, and him. Nearly three years later, he is still part of our family.
    Michael Schiavo has made a difficult decision but it is just that. His decision. And all of us, her parents, Congress, Jeb Bush, the left, the right, the in-betweens, should butt out.

  49. Del Avatar

    Why does everybody assume the motivations of Michael Schiavo is nefarious, but nobody questions those of her parents? Maybe they’re not only delusional about Terri’s condition, but are using her to play politics as well. I have to wonder what their stands are on so-called ‘life’ issues: right-to-die, abortion, euthanasia,…. They’re definitley allowing themselves to be used by political activists on the religious-right side. I just saw the Mother walking around with that nut Randall Terry on the news. So maybe its their motivations are the ones that should be questioned too.

  50. Kat Avatar

    They have wanted for years for Terri to have an MRI and have been refused by Michael. What motivations, other than not wanting their daughter to be a victim of lawyer sanctioned murder?

  51. richard mcenroe Avatar
    richard mcenroe

    Del ó Can you point to one single statement that parents have made that would support that insinuation?

  52. Kat Avatar

    Michael abandoned Terri when he became engaged and started sleeping with another woman. I don’t know of any state where you are legally allowed a common law wife and another wife. At that point he should have lost all right for making decisions for Terri. He has long stopped being her husband.

  53. plunge Avatar

    “In his lawsuit, Michael Schiavo got a million dollars which was supposed to go towards therapy. When he got the money, he suddenly remembered that Terri had once said that she did not want to be kept alive under these circumstances.”
    There is nothing suspicious about it. Michael Schiavo only gradually came to believe that there was no way to get her back, that she was in a deteriorating PVS. The malpractice trial to pay for her care wouldn’t have brought anything about her desire to not be maintained to light, because no sensible lawyer would have ever mentioned it.
    “I find it to be too much of a weird coincidence that a 25 year old woman had even talked about such a thing.”
    This is one of the things that adults often talk about with their loved ones, because we all know that life can have some nasty turns, and we want to make clear what our wishes are.
    “Judge Greer based his decision on Michael Schiavo’s word that Terri had said this. The only people who backed him, were – and this is a big coincidence – his brother and his wife.”
    No: read the court findings please.
    “There is nothing in writing from Terri on this subject.”
    Apparently, you are in ignorance of the law, which considers oral statements to be important in testimony and evidence, especially in these sorts of cases. The legal principle you are imagining (that oral testimony is worthless in the abscence of written word) is non-existent.
    “Why on earth Greer would take a man’s word who has two children with another woman, I don’t know.”
    Again, people’s attempt to portray his relationship with this second woman as unseemly is disgusting. His wife is gone. She’s for all intents and purposes dead. He made no secret at all about wanting to start a family with this woman. This isn’t some hooker on the side.
    “There was a woman in 1989 on Long Island who was pregnant when she was hit by a car. She was in a coma for a long time. The husband divorced her. (She did later come out of the coma.) Why can’t Michael Schiavo divorce Terri ?”
    Again, why do people rush in here without even knowning the basic facts of the case. Whether Michael divorces her at this point wouldn’t reverse the court finding about her wishes. And he doesn’t divorce her because he refuses to abandon the fight for what he sees as her interests. It’s understandable to disagree with his beliefs on this matter, but all this questioning of his motives is just plain ugly.

  54. plunge Avatar

    “They have wanted for years for Terri to have an MRI and have been refused by Michael. What motivations, other than not wanting their daughter to be a victim of lawyer sanctioned murder?”
    There is no actual medical purpose to having the MRI. Doing so would require even more ridiculous abuse to her body (to remove the devices that make it difficult) all to no purpose. Her parents are using any means, any filing they can think of, to delay the force of the court order. Her parents can ALWAYS claim that more tests need to be done, more research, more experimental treatments. But no experimental treatment can regrow _missing_ (not merely damaged) brain tissue.

  55. Kat Avatar

    Then why did it take 7 years to suddenly remember she had said that? And how can he have two wives?

  56. plunge Avatar

    “If Terry Schiavo were a migrant worker, how much involvement would anyone have in this case? They would have pulled her feeding tube a long time ago.”
    In fact, Bush signed a bill as governor of Texas that allowed hospitals to pull the plug over the objections of families or patient wishes if the patient or family could no longer pay.

  57. carsonfire Avatar

    I don’t have much of an opinion on the case itself, but the rhetoric from the left has hit a new low in villifying people who have a different opinion.
    Those seeking to preserve a life are being called “ghouls” and “pornographic” — this strikes me a bit too much like over-compensation. While I find there are legitimate arguments for withdrawing the poor woman’s feeding tubes, they are not helped along by trying to invert reality. To be ghoulish is to fight for death, even if it’s the right thing to do in this case; to call a fight for life ghoulish is preposterously disingenuous.
    Maybe it’s not just the fringe’s outlandishness that is harming the Democrats, but even the growing inability of its mainstream to talk about these matters in a rational manner, instead of using overly heated and antagonistic verbiage.

  58. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    What I find most fascinating is the way that Plunge went to great lengths to explain the facts concerning Schiavo’s condition (irreversible) and the facts concerning the decision to remove the feeding tube (it wasn’t her husband’s decision to request the removal of the feeding tube, but the decision of an independent advocate for Terri appointed under the relevant provisions of Florida law — a recommendation that every level of the court system has found to be completely sound.)
    Yet, we still have wingnuts here trying to pretend that Terri Schiavo’s reflexive muscular actions are actually “reactions”, and doing their best to demonize her husband.
    I’ve yet to see one person who thinks that the government should intervene in Schiavo’s case who has ever demanded that the federal government take emergency action to prevent the death from starvation of children in the third world.
    This double standard — the outrage expressed over the shell of a woman that no longer has the capacity to suffer, and the silence over the extraordinary suffering of little children who are literally starving to death on a daily basis — is all that you need to know about the true character of those who exploiting the Schiavo case.

  59. plunge Avatar

    “Then why did it take 7 years to suddenly remember she had said that?”
    First of all, because in the beginning, no one was clear that she was permanently in a PVS. It took a long time for the findings to become clear, and an even longer time to come out of denial. In the meantime, there was the malpractice case which basically gagged everyone until it was over. It only slowly became clear that she would never recover: that she was gone with no sensible hope of recovery, and that maintaining her past that point would have been against her wishes.
    “And how can he have two wives?”
    He doesn’t. He cannot marry his partner until he divorces Terri. But he cannot divorce Terri until he sees that her wishes be carried out. Again and again: he’s been offerred money to divorce her and walk away. He has nothing to lose by divorcing her and walking away OTHER than that her parents then gain more control over the situation. But even if he did divorce her, it wouldn’t change anything. The court ruling took over in 2000. It determined what Terri’s wishes would have been in the same way that courts rule on estate issues. The court ruling, not Michael’s insistence, is why the tube has been removed.

  60. plunge Avatar

    “Maybe it’s not just the fringe’s outlandishness that is harming the Democrats, but even the growing inability of its mainstream to talk about these matters in a rational manner, instead of using overly heated and antagonistic verbiage.”
    What a joke this statement is, especially in this case. Again: I’ve documented and shown that most of the debate around this case has been utterlly misleading and a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The rhetoric on the right has been apopleptic. And yet, you think that it’s the leftists, who have mostly ignored this story, are the ones heating up the rhetoric. There are people running around saying that Michael strangled her into her PVS, and you think that calling flogging an effectively brain-dead woman’s body “ghoulish” is out of line.

  61. kat Avatar

    Pulling the plug on a clinically dead person is not the same as starving someone to death.

  62. chuck Avatar

    Gee Paul, I’m sure the world is deeply indepted to your saintliness and many small children have benefitted from it. I expect articles of your clothing are passed around throughout the third world to effect miracle cures. Of course, you supported the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan and are now pushing for an intervention in Darfur, No?

  63. Del Avatar

    Richard – No, not other than seeing the Mother cozy with anti-abortion fanatic Randall Terry. It makes me wonder though who is behind them pulling strings. I’ve seen them make speeches in front of ‘pro-life’ groups as well. They have, at least to some degree, aligned themselves with those using this event to play politics. Now maybe they’re being used or maybe they agree with them, I dunno, or maybe its a little of both – I wish someone would ask them. But if they don’t have a political agenda then Id suggest talking to the news on their own, there’s plenty of interest, and staying clear of the political circus that surrounds this.
    Kat – ‘Murder’ is a legal term, and removing artificial support is not illegal, its done all the time – so this is not ‘murder’. Its not even a mercy killing (that would be euthanasia imo), its allowing someone to refuse artificial life support – which is everyone’s right. Thats what every court in this case over the years has found, that this is Terri’s wish – thats what happens when there’s no living will (let that be a lesson to everyone) and there’s a conflict within the family. If you don’t think thats the right process, then change the law.

  64. kat Avatar

    I just feel that when one abandons his wife for another woman, he loses the right to make decisions for her, especially when that decision comes right after his engagement to another woman and he has her million bucks he promised to use for her rehab, but never did.

  65. plunge Avatar

    “In a matter of minutes, she went from a fully-functioning 27-year old person to something akin to a crippled brain-damaged baby.”
    Except that still misrepresents the situation. Babies, even brain damaged babies, even brain damaged babies with paralysis of most major muscles, can still easily be shown to have cognition. Terri can not. To simply call her brain damaged the way someone with a stroke would be thought of as brain damaged massive understates the extent of her condition. Her ceb cortex: the seat of virtually everything we think of as someone’s humanity, is flat out gone. The rest of her remaining brain is in bad shape, and steadily getting worse.
    “The prospects for recovery are effectively zero, but it is impossible to rule out some sort of improvement.”
    Again, this is ridiculous. A bunch of quacks who have never examined Terri, some of whom hold phony degrees and titles they collected out of a cereal box, claim purely on the basis of seeing the manipulative videotape that there is hope for her. Not one of which actually addresses the issue of her clinical state: the lack of huge portions of her brain, the fact that her motions are indicative not of cognition, but rather of the destruction of that portion of the brain that inhibits motor actions.
    “What is in dispute is what would Ms. Schiavo have instructed her health-care proxy to do.”
    Agreed.
    “They were isolated comments made in response to specific topics of conversation. Ms. Schiavo had no way of knowing that they would later be interpreted as a legal statement of her intentions. Interpreting these statements as proof of intent is heavily speculative.”
    Greer followed the same sort of burden that is used all the time in determining the wishes of those who have left no written directives. And Terri’s condition plays a role here: it isn’t simply that this case was some border-line where her wishes might be indeterminate. She had been in a PVS state without any credible evidence of cognition for almost 10 years at this point. The normal cutoff for PVS is three months. So the question was whether Terri really would have wanted to be maintained as an empty doll for her parents to fawn over for the rest of her life. The statements in question indicated that this would go against her values. If you don’t think so, then lets discuss the actual statements and testimony itself.
    “But Congress certainly has the legal authority to vote that this process violates Ms. Schiavo’s civil rights, and to vote that federal courts have jurisdiction. And perhaps Congress would be morally correct to do so as well.”
    Every major court in the land, including the U.S. Supreme Court, has rejected this contention. Given the ruling, the burden is on Congress seeming to violating her due process rights to have her medical directives respected as determined by a court of law, not the other way around.
    “If I were in Judge Greer’s position, I would have decided to get more diagnostic information (such as an MRI), and I would have ruled there was no clear and convincing oral evidence that Ms. Schiavo had expressed her preferences.”
    There is no purpose for further diagnostic information other than to keep stalling for more and more time, which ultimately serves to deny the due process rights in question.
    “If I were in Mr. Schiavo’s position, I would acknowledge that I was de facto married to someone else now, and allow Ms. Schiavo’s parents to become her legal guardians.”
    This is irrelevant to the case as it stands.

  66. plunge Avatar

    “I just feel that when one abandons his wife for another woman,”
    He hasn’t abandoned her in any sense. He’s fighting for her interests, discharging the very last marial duty he owes her. This “other woman” visits and cares for Terri as well. In fact, according to Michael, she visited Terri far more often than did Terri’s brother, who only came onto the scene after the media did.
    “he loses the right to make decisions for her, especially when that decision comes right after his engagement to another woman and he has her million bucks he promised to use for her rehab, but never did.”
    Lying doesn’t help your case. The money in question went to pay both for her treatment as well as court approved use in defending her legal intrests against litterally millions and millions of dollars of legal action being thrown her way by right wing groups. He has several times stipulated that the rest of the money will go to charity.

  67. chuck Avatar

    From the 14’th amendment:
    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    I may not agree with its application in this case, but there is an argument to be made for congressional intervention. The courts do not exist as independent powers remote from all legislative concerns, quite the opposite.
    And plunge, you need not assume that everyone who disagrees with you is some sort of idiot.

  68. somerville Avatar
    somerville

    Plunge:
    Are you a relative of Michael Schiavo’s ?
    Who were the other people who said that Terri wanted to die ? Were any of them Terri’s family, by chance ? Or friends she’d known since childhood ?
    This morning I was speaking to a Yale-trained liberal law professor. He said his concern was that he didn’t think that Terri had been very specific in talking about right to die. He said it was was highly unlikely that the present situation – the one in which her parents would care for her– had come up with her husband in those questionable conversations. If it had, he said it’s possible she could have said, “If my parents were willing to care for me in a loving way, then OK. ” He said that he thought that this needed to be explored further.
    My college roommate was killed by serial killer Michael Ross. Ross, a Cornell grad, was set to be put to death in Connecticut in January. Every doctor who has examined him has said that Ross is mentally competent. Ross has said he wants to die. And then a judge got the execution postponed at the last minute. I find it truly bizarre that a murderer like Ross, with all of his faculties intact, could not be put to death.
    And yet, Terri, who cannot speak for herself, will be starved to death. I also find this manner of death to be ironic, since she was anorexic.

  69. somerville Avatar
    somerville

    Plunge:
    Are you a relative of Michael Schiavo’s ?
    Who were the other people who said that Terri wanted to die ? Were any of them Terri’s family, by chance ? Or friends she’d known since childhood ?
    This morning I was speaking to a Yale-trained liberal law professor. He said his concern was that he didn’t think that Terri had been very specific in talking about right to die. He said it was was highly unlikely that the present situation – the one in which her parents would care for her– had come up with her husband in those questionable conversations. If it had, he said it’s possible she could have said, “If my parents were willing to care for me in a loving way, then OK. ” He said that he thought that this needed to be explored further.
    My college roommate was killed by serial killer Michael Ross. Ross, a Cornell grad, was set to be put to death in Connecticut in January. Every doctor who has examined him has said that Ross is mentally competent. Ross has said he wants to die. And then a judge got the execution postponed at the last minute. I find it truly bizarre that a murderer like Ross, with all of his faculties intact, could not be put to death.
    And yet, Terri, who cannot speak for herself, will be starved to death. I also find this manner of death to be ironic, since she was anorexic.

  70. plunge Avatar

    “Are you a relative of Michael Schiavo’s ?”
    No. My wife is a medical student and I am a MPA with a legal background. I have never even been to Florida.
    “Who were the other people who said that Terri wanted to die ? Were any of them Terri’s family, by chance ? Or friends she’d known since childhood ?”
    I posted a link to all the relevant court documents above. You should review them and get an answer to your question. An extensive trial was held on this matter with testimony from all manner of people.
    “He said it was was highly unlikely that the present situation – the one in which her parents would care for her– had come up with her husband in those questionable conversations.”
    You can remind your professor that the very specific situation is not relevant to the general issue of whether someone would wish to be maintained indefinately with no hope of recovery. Whether or not her parents care for her body in that indefinate state is not relevant to that issue. At issue is whether she would have wanted to be preserved like this indefinately for no medical purpose other than to simply keep her body alive.
    “I find it truly bizarre that a murderer like Ross, with all of his faculties intact, could not be put to death.”
    The law doesn’t promise outcomes that you think are or are not bizarre. What it provides are specific due process according to the laws decided upon by legislatures. Comparing whatever legal reasons a judge might have to postponing a death penalty to the legal proceedings in a refusal of care case is nonsensical. The judges in each case were following different bodies of law that led them to specific conclusions.
    “And yet, Terri, who cannot speak for herself, will be starved to death. I also find this manner of death to be ironic, since she was anorexic.”
    She was bulimic. She won’t starve: she will dehydrate. And not only can she not speak for herself, she cannot want to speak. She has no higher cognitive function, as evidenced by the lack of a ceb. cortex.

  71. plunge Avatar

    “I may not agree with its application in this case, but there is an argument to be made for congressional intervention. The courts do not exist as independent powers remote from all legislative concerns, quite the opposite.”
    While true, there isn’t much room for their legitimate interference in this case. First of all, any legislation made to specifically lift her case to federal jurisdiction is going to be treated with deep suspicion. Congress is not supposed to intervene in specific court case to challenge findings or outcomes, a proceedure that goes all the way back to the Revolution and Adams. Federal judges are usually very very unhappy to get cases whose sole purpose for reaching them is simply that state appeals have been exhausted. Second of all, there is the issue of retroactive legislation: they can pass laws that purport to affect Terri’s case, when that matter was decided long prior to the law being passed. And so on.
    Of course in our system of government, branches CAN attempt to do all sorts of things. But these things are usually legally constrained in many ways, and Congress is very obviously overstepping its bounds on this.
    What is deeply sickening is that many of the same members of this Congress who claim that this is about the sanctity of life have most recently been lobbying to cut medical funding that goes primarily to maintaining the dehabilitative and reparative care of the elderly and indigent: people who, unlike Terry, actually have cognition and even chances for recovery. And this President is the same man who signed a law allowing hospitals to pull the plug on patients like Terri even over the objections of a guardian… as long as the money has run out. So I think I’m well advised to call this a grotesque circus.

  72. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    I may not agree with its application in this case, but there is an argument to be made for congressional intervention. The courts do not exist as independent powers remote from all legislative concerns, quite the opposite.
    Your hero, Antonin Scalia, begs to differ….
    I would have preferred that we announce, clearly and promptly, that the federal courts have no business in this field; that American law has always accorded the State the power to prevent, by force if necessary, suicide – including suicide by refusing to take appropriate measures necessary to preserve one’s life; that the point at which life becomes “worthless,” and the point at which the means necessary to preserve it become “extraordinary” or “inappropriate,” are neither set forth in the Constitution nor known to the nine Justices of this Court any better than they are known to nine people picked at random from the Kansas City telephone directory; and hence, that even when it is demonstrated by clear and convincing evidence that a patient no longer wishes certain measures to be taken to preserve her life, it is up to the citizens of Missouri to decide, through their elected representatives, whether that wish will be honored. It is quite impossible (because the Constitution says nothing about the matter) that those citizens will decide upon a line less lawful than the one we would choose; and it is unlikely (because we know no more about “life-and-death” than they do) that they will decide upon a line less reasonable. (emphasis added) Cruzan v. Director, MDH, 497, U.S. 261 (1990)
    as does one of my heroes, Justice Stevens…
    “Choices about death touch the core of liberty. . . . [N]ot much may be said with confidence about death unless it is said from faith, and that alone is reason enough to protect the freedom to conform choices about death to individual conscience.” Our salvation is the Equal Protection Clause, which requires the democratic majority to accept for themselves and their loved ones what they impose on you and me. This Court need not, and has no authority to, inject itself into every field of human activity [497 U.S. 261, 301] where irrationality and oppression may theoretically occur, and if it tries to do so, it will destroy itself. (emphasis added) Cruzan v. Director, MDH, 497, U.S. 261 (1990)
    And although the wingnuts are obviously beyond convincing, here is the conclusion reached by the Guardian ad Litem appointed by Jeb Bush after the Florida legislature met in emergency session and passed a law allowing the governor to intervene…..
    The GAL concludes that the trier of fact and the evidence that served as the basis for the decisions regarding Theresa Schiavo were firmly grounded within Florida statutory and case law, which clearly and unequivocally provide for the removal of artificial nutrition in cases of persistent vegetative states, where there is no advance directive, through substituted/proxy judgment of the guardian and/or the court as guardian, and with the use of evidence regarding the medical condition and the intent of the parties that was deemed, by the trier of fact to be clear and convincing. The GAL concludes the Guardian Ad Litem appointment be extended until a resolution is concluded in the matter of Theresa Maria Schiavo. The rules were adhered to and they are the laws of this state.
    (all above quotes taken from the report of the GAL to Jeb Bush, which can be found at
    http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf
    the wingnuts who have displayed such a remarkable ignorance of the facts surrounding this case should be forced to read this entire report, if for no other reason than to prevent the further waste of bandwidth in making groundless and completely stupid accusations and assumptions about this case.)

  73. TJIT Avatar

    Plunge,
    Thanks for your clear headed and to the point contribution to this discussion.

  74. chuck Avatar

    Paul,
    I haven’t made up my mind on the case as I don’t yet have all the information at hand. I am leaning towards feeding tube removal. However, I can see how this is going to play out politically:
    Wingnuts 1 : 0 Wile E. Coyote, super genius

  75. JennyD Avatar

    Consider Michael Schiavo’s last decade or so:
    The woman he loves goes into a PVS. He goes to visit her everyday for the first year, and then less so. Because he is a young man, and he would like to live, not be half-dead. But his beloved wife’s parents are more interested in keeping a body alive than anything else. They view every involuntary twitch as a sign of love. The parents have become unhinged.
    Schiavo’s parents could have had a loving relationship with their son-in-law. They probably could have remained in his life and been able to love his children with another woman. He might have been able to make room for them. But that all disappeared when they gave over their lives to keeping alive the half-dead.
    This is nuts. Michael is not a bad guy. But unlike his wife, he’s not dead. Don’t blame him for being alive. It’s the parents who’ve gone psycho here.

  76. Kat Avatar

    Michael can have his life, he just isn’t entitled to take Terry’s.

  77. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    if there is any question with regard to Schiavo’s being used solely for political purposes by the far right, and not because of any respect for life, this story will remove all doubt…
    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3087387
    A six month old baby with a severe disability had its ventilator turned off, against the wishes of his mother.
    This happened in Houston Texas….home of Tom Delay.
    Not surprisingly, the baby’s mother was poor and black, so Mr. “Sanctity-of-human-life” didn’t bother to rush legislation through congress that could have prevented the death of this child.
    And what really kills me about this case is, that if the mother in this case had found out that her baby had this incurable and fatal defect during her pregnancy, and had wanted to abort this child, the wingnuts would have screamed bloody murder.
    But not a whisper is heard from all of these “right to life” advocates six months after the child is born when this baby life is terminated by removing medical treatment.

  78. chuck Avatar

    JennyD,
    These things can go various ways. I knew a woman whose husband was brain damaged by mercury poisoning from handling fungicides. She raised a family of four on a low paying job and waited until he died, ~ 20 years. The upshot, her kids adored her and in a fairy tale touch a millionaire from California carried her off in a plane and married her. She was greatly admired. I have also known men whose wifes were dying of cancer who had affairs. Do I blame them? No, dealing with a dying spouse is tough, and perhaps made a bit easier with some love on the side. Who do I admire most? No question, the lady. There are larger dimensions to these things than the merely practical.

  79. PeteK Avatar

    Kat, where’s your outcry about the previously mentioned law sign by Bush when he was a governor in Texas giving hospitals the right to pull the plug AGAINST the wishes of ALL family members only because they can’t pay the bill. If Michael is a murder for wanting to remove the tube then I guess George W Bush must be a massmurder for allowing hospitals to kill probably hundreds more…. And according to _your_ views they do it for the same reason: Money.
    You must feel so happy now that you won’t be able to vote for Bush again…
    (Actually I would like to hear from the rest of the people in here obejecting the removing of the tube….)

  80. plunge Avatar

    “Michael can have his life, he just isn’t entitled to take Terry’s.”
    Terri’s life is over. Not acknowledging that might well make Michael seem like cold-hearted. But that is the reality. His wife is gone. She is not going to come back. Brains do not re-grow. This isn’t a coma patient who will someday wake up maybe if her brain heals enough. This isn’t a severly retarded person who can feel and love and interact. This isn’t a paralyzed person who can still have a rewarding inner life. This is a woman who’s cerebral cortex has simply decayed away as the dead tissue deteriorates. I didn’t know what to think about this case until I saw the clinical findings. I’m not a doctor, but every single doctor I’ve talked to is horrified that anyone could pretend that Terri might get better. The only people who her parents can find to say that she could get better with ANY therapy are cranks who don’t even mention the clinical findings or explain how they could be corrected.
    If you acknowledge that, then what Michael is doing is clear. He is trying to prevent her from being turned into a living puppet, forced alive for as long as possible for no reason other than denial (again, her parents seriously tried to get her arms and legs sawed off and her put on a vent, purely because that would prolong her life… to what end, I have no idea).

  81. Kat Avatar

    I have already said–if a person is clinically dead, a ventilator has little purpose. Terri is not clinically dead–this isn’t about turning off life support, but denying a patient with food in order to kill her. If the baby was on life support for 6 months and was still requiring a machine to keep it breathing, that is a whole different matter. You can’t kill someone if they are already dead.

  82. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    (again, her parents seriously tried to get her arms and legs sawed off and her put on a vent, purely because that would prolong her life… to what end, I have no idea).
    actually plunge, based on the GAL’s report, this does not appear to be the case. The GAL does describe the grotesque lengths to which the Schindlers were willing to go simply to avoid acknowledging that their daughter was dead — including amputating all of her limbs if she developed diabetes and gangrene developed, subjecting her to open heart surgery in the event of heart failure, and admitting that even if Terri Schiavo had left a living will stating her desire to not have her body sustained despite having no functioning cerebral cortex that they would still be trying to keep her alive against Terri’s own wishes.
    But I don’t think there is any evidence that the Schindler’s actually tried to get a couple of limbs lopped off….

  83. chuck Avatar

    plunge,
    I may agree with your first paragraph, but I think making a hero of Michael is a mistake. You don’t know his motives, neither do I, but plenty of experience on my part and some gossip out there indicates that perhaps he isn’t all that heroic a figure. Time will tell, but I would be a bit more careful if I were you.

  84. plunge Avatar

    “But I don’t think there is any evidence that the Schindler’s actually tried to get a couple of limbs lopped off….”
    You’re right and I’m wrong. They didn’t actually push for this to happen immediately, but they did stipulate things they were willing to do to keep her alive.

  85. plunge Avatar

    “I have already said–if a person is clinically dead, a ventilator has little purpose.”
    It does have a purpose: it keep their body alive indefinately.
    “Terri is not clinically dead–this isn’t about turning off life support, but denying a patient with food in order to kill her.”
    Legally, a feeding tube IS life support, under Florida law. She has a tube that is threaded down her throat into her stomach, because “feeding” her in any normal sense would kill her.
    “If the baby was on life support for 6 months and was still requiring a machine to keep it breathing, that is a whole different matter. You can’t kill someone if they are already dead.”
    But you can remove artifical life support to stop keeping them alive.
    The only real difference between Terri and someone on a vent is that the part of the brain that controls breathing isn’t fully damaged in Terri (though partially, which is why she breathes through her mouth, which is itself a condition that requires special treatments to prevent from causing her death).

  86. kat Avatar

    She didn’t even get special treatments when she had a couple of life threatening infections. Spare me the dramatics, plunge–it plunges your credibility to zero.

  87. plunge Avatar

    “I may agree with your first paragraph, but I think making a hero of Michael is a mistake.”
    I don’t know Michael. I don’t know what sort of a man he is. But all the evidence, all the court testimony, and all the impartial parties here that actually know the case seem to think that he’s sincere. What I object to is the downright evil slander being launnched his way, based on absolutely no evidence put plenty of self-serving hatred.
    “You don’t know his motives, neither do I, but plenty of experience on my part and some gossip out there indicates that perhaps he isn’t all that heroic a figure.”
    Oh yes, the gossip about how he strangled her into this state. Or how he abused her. Or how the judge is in office illegally. Or any other manner of inane accusations that have not been substantiated, and which have all arisen in an atmosphere of extreme hatred directed towards Michael.
    “Time will tell, but I would be a bit more careful if I were you.”
    Perhaps Michael is a monster. However, the fact remains, those who think that about him have no legitimate reason to. If he turns out to have secretly caused the PVS, that won’t magically legitimate people’s suspicions about him, because they were still baseless. As Lincoln said, the accidental truth of a statement made in known ignorance of the truth of that statement does not make it any less a lie. And furthermore, who Michael is does not have direct bearing on Terri’s wishes. Those were determined not by Michael but by a court and an indepedant assigned guardian who spent extensive time with her, with all the evidence, with the families, and so on.

  88. plunge Avatar

    “She didn’t even get special treatments when she had a couple of life threatening infections.”
    The whole point is to allow nature to take its course. Michael wanted all treatment to prolong her life to end. It’s not clear whether withholding antibiotics was legally allowable, but the fact remains that the point was simply to stop artificially forcing her to remain alive against what the court ruled her wishes would have been.
    Can you honestly claim that there is any treatment or any withholding of treatment that could possibly change her situation other than either to keep her living like this forever, or allow her to die?
    “Spare me the dramatics, plunge–it plunges your credibility to zero.”
    What dramatics? What I’m saying rests not on my credibility, but on the documented facts of the case which I have merely pointed to and explained.

  89. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    If the baby was on life support for 6 months and was still requiring a machine to keep it breathing, that is a whole different matter. You can’t kill someone if they are already dead.
    the baby wasn’t dead. He suffered from a condition that usually results in stillbirth, or death even with intervention within three months. He had survived twice as long as the maximum time expected, and although the prognosis was far from favorable, he had as much if not more of a chance of a “miracle” than Terri Schiavo.
    (indeed, the reports make it clear that the baby was capable of suffering, and would in fact have been suffering were it not for painkillers and/or other drug therapies.)
    In other words, this was a clear cut case of euthanasia — and it was only done because the mother could not afford to pay to keep her child hospitalized to receive the treatment necessary to keep him alive.
    There was no legal defense fund for Baby Hudson…. the hospital itself was paying the mother’s legal fees.
    And it wasn’t like this case slipped completely under the radar, either— stories about the Baby Hudson case have been appearing in the local, national, and international media for over month—and Baby Hudson was even mentioned in a number of the same articles that examined the Schiavo case.
    But like I said, Baby Hudson was poor and black, so despite the fact that he was from TOM DELAY’S HOMETOWN, Delay did nothing to stop him from being killed through the denial of medical treatment because his mother could not afford it.
    Now, personally, I think the hospital did the right thing. The mother appears to have been nuts (she never sought any pre-natal care), and the baby had a fatal condition that required not just ventilation to keep him breathing, but painkillers to keep him from suffering while he was kept alive. I personally think that its amoral for parents to keep a baby like that alive.
    So to me, the issue is not what happened to Sun Hudson — its the hypocrisy of those who are exploiting Terri Schiavo.

  90. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    I may agree with your first paragraph, but I think making a hero of Michael is a mistake. You don’t know his motives, neither do I, but plenty of experience on my part and some gossip out there indicates that perhaps he isn’t all that heroic a figure. Time will tell, but I would be a bit more careful if I were you.
    I suggest that you pay less attention to your own experience and “gossip”, and read the report of the Guardian appointed by Jeb Bush, which provides considerable detail with regard to what Michael Schiavo did, and did not, do.
    ****************************
    She didn’t even get special treatments when she had a couple of life threatening infections.
    False. Once it had been determined that there was no hope for his wife, Michael Schiavo did order that medical treatments be withheld so that nature could take its course. But when Terri contracted a urinary tract infection that if left untreated, would have resulted in fatal complications, the hospital sued to be allowed to provide treatment, and were successful in their suit.
    again, PLEASE read the report put out by Jeb Bush’s Guardian, rather than continue to spew right wing lies.

  91. SloppyDawg Avatar
    SloppyDawg

    How old are the Schindlers? If the Schindlers become responsible for Terri, who then has to take care of Terri if something happens to her parents?
    Also: How many hours of video did they have to shoot before getting the minute or two of “responses” from Terri?

  92. chuck Avatar

    Paul, here’s second opinion.

    I HAVE FIRSTHAND KNOWLEGE OF THIS CASE
    In 1996-I was a Primary Care Nurse at Palms of Largo, where Terri was my (our) patient. Her room was directly across from the Nurse’s station. I was told that she had a “stroke”.
    I read her file, and immediatley noticed two things, she had had a heart attack caused by low potassium, (not unusual in bulimacs), and how young she really was.
    Terri’s t.v. was kept on 24/7. When you entered the room, she turned toward you. Having given this Woman bed baths myself, I can tell you she would follow me with her eyes, and gurggle. She also cries, when she has her “Period” (Mensus). She has her period because that ba$tard Michael would not let us give her birth control pills to stop her period(s).
    She is NOT in a coma, she is in a “persistant vegetative-like state”. She was aware (one of the reasons her t.v. was on 24/7 was for stimulation. It is also a fact that during the fight between her parents & Michael, the t.v. was turned off. I have first hand knowlege of this.
    Let me tell you about Michael:
    >he would come to visit his wife with his girlfriend, they would immediately shut the door to her room. Myself, and the other Nursing professionals, would find 1000 different reasons to have to be in the room, while they were there. Believe it or not, the girlfriend was actually nicer.
    >we wanted to take Terri to the beauty parlor in Palms. Michael refused to let us. I gave Terri “shampoos” in bed, with an inflatable head guard. Another nurse put chap-stick, and some make-up on Terri that her parents had left for her. When Michael arrived, (with the girlfriend, of corse-he NEVER came without her) he raised so much he!! about Terri wearing make-up, the other Nurse was written-up.
    >I was on staff one night when Terri displayed the symptoms of a Urinary Tract infection. The danger was the Urine backing up into Terri’s kidneys. My friend, and co-worker Mya called Michael, to tell him we were getting Terri some sulfates, to counteract the infection. Michael said, and I quote “Isn’t that Bitch ever going to die?”, to my friend Mya, on the phone.
    >the unspoken bit about us going into Terri’s room when Michael & girlfriend were there, was a few times after Michael left, (after having the door closed) we would come in the room, and Terri would be crying.
    >we didn’t know if Terri could swallow & eat, we had staff that BEGGED to give her jello, or liquids off of a spoon, and Terri’s husband (then a CNA student-that’s certified nursing asst.-refused to let us.) Terri had a feeding tube for ONE reason, because she was in a nursing home & it was more convient.
    >Terri was moved, without notice, from Palms at 6:30am one morning & moved to Hospice, where she still sits.
    NO, I have not been asked to testify at any of the hearings, even though both sides Atty’s have my information.
    >All the money awarded to Michael (actually Terri) is gone. NOT ONE PENNY WENT FOR “REHAB”, NOT ONE. Michael invested it in his construction company.
    Michael now has two children with his Mistress. He refuses to turn his wife over to her parents, he refuses to divorce her.
    My opinion? This control-freak-bastard (who was abusive during their marriage) , is trying to kill her, be the “widower”, and collect her social security & other benefits.
    This man is an attempted Murder.
    In 1996-Terri had a good chance…..now? Who knows. The pr! won’t let her parents see her.

  93. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    I HAVE FIRSTHAND KNOWLEGE OF THIS CASE
    sure she does. and I’m sure her statement is backed up the the rest of the nurses at the facility, and that Guardian appointed by Jeb Bush to act on behalf of Terri Schiavo ignored this damning evidence because Michael Schiavo arranged a three-way between the Guardian, a cuban refugee hooker, and a male Kangaroo.
    one thing I noticed…. there is no name associated with this “testimony”. Care to enlighten us as to who this “mystery woman” is?

  94. chuck Avatar

    Here are some affidavits.

  95. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    Here are some affidavits.
    would you care to provide something from a web site that does not appear to be run by a refugee from Charleton Asylum?
    I mean, NO ONE every reported any evidence that suggested that…”at age 26, Terri Schindler-Schiavo, suffered brain damage from what appears to be a violent beating and possible strangulation by her husband.”
    These “affidavits” are completely inconsistent with the facts as determined by the courts and the Guardian appointed by Jeb Bush.
    I mean, have you read them? Did you notice how there are clear contradictions between the three affidavits themselves, let alone the fact that they contradict the narrative established by the person APPOINTED BY JEB BUSH?!?!?
    Do you really think that there is some sort of massive conspiracy to kill Terri Schiavo so that Michael Schiavo can get the lawsuit money that was placed in trust for Terri’s treatment and has already been spent (except possibly for $50K, according to one report).
    That the conspiracy involves not just Judge Greer, but the entire Florida State court system, federal courts, and the office of the Republican governor of the state of Florida?

  96. PeteK Avatar

    Chuck, you probably should check what sites you link to. Or perhaps you share their ideas?

  97. JennyD Avatar

    Chuck, you have first-hand knowledge of this case. I don’t know this but maybe you do:
    Who is paying for Schiavo’s care? Right now. Today. Not the money that Michael got that’s gone. But I mean, who is paying the monthly bill at the nursing home, and how much is it, do you think?

  98. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    Chuck, you probably should check what sites you link to. Or perhaps you share their ideas?
    Peter, I really have to think that chuck was careless, because I’d hate to think that he knew that this
    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/
    is another page from his source’s site….

  99. chuck Avatar

    PeterK,
    I ain’t afraid of strangers and oddballs nor what folks might think. I don’t know the truth of these things, *shrug*, but there is obviously more to this than might meet the eye. I have also known some total scumbags in my life, and had a neighbor who murdered her boyfriend with a p0ker in a domestic quarrel, so some things don’t surprise me much. I just don’t feel comfortable jumping to conclusions as to peoples motives, especially people I don’t know. I’m trying to raise a sliver of doubt around here.
    JennyD,
    I have no experience before today. The same question you ask has come to my mind and I don’t know the answer. My understanding was that the rehabilitation money was held in trust, which would, I think, make it difficult for Michael to spend it, but I don’t know, maybe he administered it. Also, even if these testamonies are genuine, and they could certainly be fraudulent, I expect some of the details will be wrong, or taken from newspaper stories and such. It happens.

  100. Rootbeer Avatar
    Rootbeer

    All the money awarded to Michael (actually Terri) is gone. NOT ONE PENNY WENT FOR “REHAB”, NOT ONE. Michael invested it in his construction company.
    Objection, your honor, that’s hearsay. The witness cannot possibly know how the settlement monies were ultimately disposed by Mr. Schiavo.
    Chuck, I don’t know how much of your story is the truth, but you’ve given me enough reason to believe that maybe none of it is. Better luck next time.

  101. Kat Avatar

    ( She has a tube that is threaded down her throat into her stomach, because “feeding” her in any normal sense would kill her.) That is full of crap. She has no feeding tube down her throat. Now I know you make things up as you go along. And you don’t know if it would kill her because it hasn’t been allowed by Michael. The same Michael who tried to run another girlfriend(the one he had a year later)
    off the road.

  102. plunge Avatar

    “She has no feeding tube down her throat. Now I know you make things up as you go along.”
    Because they took it out.
    Terri does not deliberately chew. She does not swallow. If you leave food, saliva, or anything else in her mouth and she doesn’t choke on it outright, it will pool. It will decay. It will become a breeding ground for bacteria.
    “And you don’t know if it would kill her because it hasn’t been allowed by Michael.”
    There have been three different swallowing tests, all failures. How many more do there have to be until people accept the fact that any further “testing” is just a way to stall for time?
    “The same Michael who tried to run another girlfriend(the one he had a year later)
    off the road.”
    Cite? Or is this just another mangled slander used to pointlessly demonize the man because he doesn’t think Terri would want to be artificially kept alive?

  103. plunge Avatar

    “we wanted to take Terri to the beauty parlor in Palms. Michael refused to let us. I gave Terri “shampoos” in bed, with an inflatable head guard. Another nurse put chap-stick, and some make-up on Terri that her parents had left for her. When Michael arrived, (with the girlfriend, of corse-he NEVER came without her) he raised so much he!! about Terri wearing make-up, the other Nurse was written-up.”
    Again, familiarize yourself with the case. Michael had her makeup done every day for seven years. It took that long to admit to himself that what he was doing was obsessive to the point of insanity. Terri wasn’t there. She didn’t want to be someone’s dress up doll. It’s perfectly understandable that he would be pissed off to find a bunch of interlopers decide to restart something it took him years to wean himself off of.
    The other claims made here sound like little more than wishful thinking and more confusion of the basis issues. It is easy enough to convince yourself that Terri’s spastic movements are evidence of deliberative movement. You happen to correlate a movement with something once, and from then on view everything she does in that light. But a parade of doctors have examined her at length and concluded that her movements are not deliberative. There is no consistency to her motions or responses to external stimuli. Her appointed guardian tried everything he could think of to get some sign of life out of her, some sign of recognition or proof of an ongoing cognitive process or function. He failed.
    Why is that so hard for people to acecpt? As technology improves, we will be able to maintain and keep alive worse and worse cases. We aren’t so far away from being able to sustain even decapitated patients. What is the principle that we are establishing here: that such cases would want to be maintained in statis for eternity, to no end, with no meaningful sense of recovery (it’s not even clear what “recovery” would mean, since the person is gone, there’s nothing to recover).

  104. Kat Avatar

    The feeding tube was never down her throat. That is an outright lie.
    http://www.zimp.org/stuff/07%20-%20PhoneConvShookBobJr.htm
    I just don’t trust Michael. If her parents were making the decision, I’d respect that. I don’t respect Michael Schiavo any more than I respect Scott Peterson as he wept crocodile tears and said he loved his wife.

  105. Kat Avatar

    There is also a parade of doctors, not on Michael’s payroll, who disagree.
    Affidavit of Dr. Ralph Ankenman, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Pamela Hyikn, SLP
    Affidavit of Dr. Beatrice Engstrand, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Jill Joyce, Phd
    Affidavit of Dr. Alyse Eytan, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Philip Kennedy, MD, Phd
    Affidavit of Dr. Harry Sawyer Goldsmith, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Kyle Lakas, MS, CCC, SLP
    Affidavit of Dr. Jacob Green, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Richard Neubauer, MD, PA
    Affidavit of Dr. Carolyn Heron, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Ricardo Senno, MD, MS, FAAPMR
    Affidavit of Dr. David Hopper, PhD
    Affidavit of Dr. Stanley Terman, MD, Phd
    Affidavit of Dr. Lawrence Huntoon, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. J. Michael Uszler, MD
    Affidavit of Dr. Richard Weidman, MD

  106. carsonfire Avatar

    I’m just seeing more of the same. I’m probably leaning more towards the *reasoning* that the woman will probably have to be allowed to die (and have been for a while); however, the people taking up that charge continue to repel and repulse me.
    Whereas someone like Kat seems to focus her anger on what she sees as a suspicious man, the left’s focus is all on the WIINGNUUUUUUUTSSSS!!!! Spitting fire, your veins are popping out, and your faces are flush with righteous anger.
    This is a sad time, whichever way it goes. It’s not an easy thing for anyone to face; but it seems that the left is in danger of replaying the Wellstone memorial again. Despite attempts at pinning “politics” on DeLay for Republican opinionating that defending life might be *seen* as a better move politically, it’s the left who shove the politics of it all in everybody’s face. No matter how “right” you are in the argument, you’re making sure that everybody can see whopping great scads of foaming hate as you defend snuffing a life.

  107. carsonfire Avatar

    Oh, and btw… more to the point of JJ’s post. My roommate is an *actual* libertarian, and trust me… the left is *not* making any friends with him on this.

  108. plunge Avatar

    Good grief. Look a little deeper into your list. None of these people except one is even a qualified medical doctor in neuroscience, and the only one who is says nothing about her clinical findings, but merely says that an MRI can help show more about her condition. Two aren’t even legitimately titled “Dr.” and one, Hopper, is a certified quack. And most are responding simply to seeing clips of her on footage that every court so far has ruled is grossly misleading, not any clinical background. One suggests that she might benefit from acupuncture for goodness sakes. This is nothing, nothing like a sample of serious medical evaluations arguing that she is in fact not in a PVS and could recover. It’s a cavalcade of carefully couched statements that say nothing other than they could try treating her with something in their specialty, apparently unaware that speech therapy is not going to cure a missing cerebral cortex.
    “The feeding tube was never down her throat. That is an outright lie.”
    She cannot swallow. And even if she could had a working swallow reflex, it would be too dangerous to feed her by mouth because she would likely aspirate food or liquid.

  109. Jim S Avatar

    Kat, both of your last posts are just a crock. The doctors who have testified previously were not by any stretch of the imagination all on Michael Schiavo’s payroll. And frankly, I want to know who called the doctors you cite in on the case. What do they base their affadavits on? The link you provide to demonize Michael Schiavo is joke. Really, you do provide a classic demonstration of everything that plunge has said concerning the right wing and their involvement in this sad case. What is it about the CAT scans in 1996 that showed virtually no cerebral cortex remaining that you and the ideologues like you don’t understand?

  110. plunge Avatar

    “Despite attempts at pinning “politics” on DeLay for Republican opinionating that defending life might be *seen* as a better move politically, it’s the left who shove the politics of it all in everybody’s face.”
    Good grief: these are people who were caught circulating a memo crowing about how this would be a great issue for them, making things very difficult for Democrats.
    “Whereas someone like Kat seems to focus her anger on what she sees as a suspicious man, the left’s focus is all on the WIINGNUUUUUUUTSSSS!!!! Spitting fire, your veins are popping out, and your faces are flush with righteous anger.”
    You can try to be as dismissive as you’d like. The facts are that the debate as presented by the media and the grandstanding federal politicians who got involved grossly misrepresented the facts of the case. That speaks for itself.

  111. carsonfire Avatar

    Sorry to pop in once again. But it just keeps gnawing at me. The woman will probably have to be taken off of the feeding tube. But if she *is* a complete vegetable, why the rush in the face of the parents demands? The reason a libertarian or right wing might want to wait is that while they may not be that fond of the government intervening, they’re not that comfortable with King Judges making all the calls, either. To a libertarian, the parent’s opinion should be held higher than a robed hoodlum.
    If the woman is a complete vegetable, why the mad rush? Why the frothing anger that it hasn’t been done already, since the family *wants* to spend the money to care for her until all options are worn out? It’s as if the left wants her dead just so they can have a triumph — so they can dance around and say “ha ha, she’s dead, we won one!”
    And, sorry, that *does* seem awfully gruesome, far moreso than simply having sympathy and compassion for the woman’s parents.

  112. carsonfire Avatar

    plunge: Good grief: these are people who were caught circulating a memo crowing about how this would be a great issue for them, making things very difficult for Democrats.
    Absolutely true, that’s what I was referring to. Democrats have been caught circulating position memos, as well, though. It would be silly if politicians didn’t evaluate the political ramifications of what they do. The big question would be: did they arrive at this position *because* of that calculation, or are they just making sure that they’re not getting into a losing fight? They may have backed off if they thought it was hopeless, so take off a few demerits for courage. But I’m not sure you could make a serious argument that they picked an issue this controversial just for fun, or just to tweak Democrats.
    And just because they’ve enunciated that line of thinking doesn’t invalidate it. The impression I’m getting is that they are going to be proved right.
    So in fighting to keep the parents from having their delay, what are you going to gain, one way or another? Have you really eased the suffering of the woman, who is supposed to be a complete, unresponsive vegetable anyway? The husband has already moved on, despite calls of sympathy on his behalf. Really, the only people who have anything to lose in this fight, right though they may be, are the people clamoring for her death.

  113. Kat Avatar

    There is actually a TV or radio transcript of an interview with the girlfriend. I read it quite awhile ago, but I have to ride my bike and I don’t feel like looking for it. You want it, you look.
    Plunge, the feeding tube is in her stomach, not in her mouth.
    And some doctor on TV just said a catscan can not determine PVS. In fact he saisd there is no test other than a clinical diagnosis and in Terri’s case, he says there is no consensus.(Sanjay Gupta–a neurologist-CNN)

  114. Kat Avatar

    Asked by Larry King if he understood her family’s feelings, Michael said: “Yes, I do. But this is not about them, it’s about Terri. And I’ve also said that in court. We didn’t know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want. …”
    The interview aired Friday.

  115. plunge Avatar

    “Plunge, the feeding tube is in her stomach, not in her mouth.”
    Oh, you mean it’s not threaded through her throat, because it’s not a temporary measure, but rather a permanent one because she can’t swallow anything via her mouth? I didn’t know they had gone that route, but even though I was wrong, that doesn’t much help your case. All that demonstrates is that no one seriously expects or expected her to recover.

  116. chuck Avatar

    Plunge,
    It is a convenience that makes her easy to feed. Look, you may have a point, but your arrogant contempt for all contrary views is not going to win you any friends. And politics is all about friends.

  117. plunge Avatar

    “But if she *is* a complete vegetable, why the rush in the face of the parents demands? ”
    Rush? She’s been like this for 15 years. That’s how long they’ve kept her on artificial life support.
    “he reason a libertarian or right wing might want to wait is that while they may not be that fond of the government intervening, they’re not that comfortable with King Judges making all the calls, either. To a libertarian, the parent’s opinion should be held higher than a robed hoodlum.”
    The parents opinion was heard at trial, and has been made plain through millions of dollars of goofy filings that have been tossed out as illegitimate at every turn. Guess what: in a civilized society, we require courts of law to make findings and determine the right course of the law. This they did. No libertarian can seriously complain about that since the whole point was to determine _Terri’s_ wishes, not her parents.
    “If the woman is a complete vegetable, why the mad rush?”
    15 years is not a “mad rush.” Her parents have delayed and stalled and made excuses for year after year after year after all the basic legal issues were over and done with.
    “Why the frothing anger that it hasn’t been done already, since the family *wants* to spend the money to care for her until all options are worn out?”
    There are no options, and the patient’s wishes have to be respected. That’s the law.
    “It’s as if the left wants her dead just so they can have a triumph — so they can dance around and say “ha ha, she’s dead, we won one!”
    The left largely ignored this case until a bunch of right wing groups and politicians started making tons and tons of noise about it. And the left still doesn’t have much of a unified interest in it. It’s people that care about the rights of patients to refuse pointless care with no medical purpose other than to sustain and endless unlife, whether they be on the right or the left, that care about seeing the right thing done.
    “And, sorry, that *does* seem awfully gruesome, far moreso than simply having sympathy and compassion for the woman’s parents.”
    It’s gruesome that you can fantasize about how horrible your enemies inner thoughts must be that you invented purely to slander them?

  118. plunge Avatar

    “your arrogant contempt for all contrary views is not going to win you any friends.”
    My tone may be counter-productively irritated. But seriously, can you at least understand why it makes me sick to see this case so grossly misrepresented, to see Michael Schiavo slandered not because of any good evidence but simply because people want to believe the worst about him, to see a painful personal medical issue become the latest partisan celebration and circus?

  119. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    plunge…
    ignore the right-winger who tell you that the Democrats aren’t making any friends….or actually, be encouraged by what they say — because by now you should realize that their knowledge consists of what they want to believe, and is not based on any factual knowledge.
    Has a single one of them read the report prepared by the Guardian appointed by Jeb Bush?
    Of course not. They avoid the facts — even when those facts are presented by someone appointed by an ally in this case — because they simply don’t want to know the facts.

  120. Jim S Avatar

    The right loves to lie. They say that it’s all the fault of one evil, sinister judge. Actually there have been 19 judges involved in this case. Every one has agreed with Michael Schiavo. The family is NOT willing to spend the money. They don’t have it. They are willing for Medicaid to spend the money. If a doctor on CNN said that PVS can’t be shown by a CAT scan he’s only partly right. PVS can have multiple causes. What has happened in the Schiavo case is that after her condition developed the cerebral cortex degraded until it no longer exists. THAT can be revealed by a CAT scan and has been.

  121. JennyD Avatar

    Who is paying for her care, and how much? Is the government? That means that precious resources are being soaked up for a white, middle-class body shell of a woman, while children go without primary medical care.
    Insurance? That means that a marginally employed family will once again not be able to afford the outrageous premiums to get health insurance.
    Bitch all you want about insurance companies, but like it or not, this one woman is soaking up more health care resources than most entire families will in several lifetimes. And for what? So mommy and daddy can put makeup on a near corpse? So some judges and senators can use her shell of a body as a prop?
    Explain this to the kid who comes to the school I visit who would like to go have a doctor look at his skin condition, but Mom has no insurance and can’t afford it.

  122. plunge Avatar

    Indeed: the fact that you can see on a CAT scan alone that she has lost most of her cerb cortex is damning enough. You usually use MRIs to get the sort of fine detail you can’t resolve in a CAT scan. But in this case, it’s plainly obvious without any fine detaill: that black stuff is fluid. I’ve seen CAT scans of end-stage invalids: demented, unresponsive people who are routinely allowed to pass away… who have many times over more intact brain tissue than Terri does.

  123. carsonfire Avatar

    plunge: 15 years is not a “mad rush.” Her parents have delayed and stalled and made excuses for year after year after year after all the basic legal issues were over and done with.
    The judge’s push to get it over with *is* a mad rush under the circumstances. He has basically thumbed his nose at everyone working on the parents’ behalf. And, again, to JJ’s point: Omnipotent Judges are far more grating on libertarians than government intervention in response to Omnipotent Judges.
    And I still don’t understand the raging hostility toward the parents. “Stalled and made excuses”… to keep their daughter alive. Why is it so hard to simply say “those poor, misguided people. It’s a shame Republicans are offering them false hope” or “it’s a shame this had to happen, but the parents need to accept reality and move on”. Instead, all this fist shaking at people clutching at hope.
    Specifically, why are the parents made out to be villains in this tragedy? None of the medical evidence points to them being evil people.

  124. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    He has basically thumbed his nose at everyone working on the parents’ behalf.
    the parents have filed frivilous motion after frivilous motion — the judge in the case has simply, and correctly, rejected each one in turn.
    To give you some idea of how frivilous these motions are, one was based solely on a new statement by the Pope, and the fact that Terri Schiavo was raised Catholic. During the trial, it was firmly established that Terri was no longer a practicing Catholic, did not attend church regularly, and was not devoted to Roman Catholic dogma. Nevertheless, the parents wasted the court’s time with a completely frivolous claim based on the assumption that because the Pope had said something that might change the mind of the most devout Catholic with regard to a decision to terminate their own life support.
    Carson, when are you going to read the report of the Guardian ad Litem, rather than just spewing an endless series of lies, misrepresentations, and irrelevancies? Remember, the Guardian was APPOINTED BY JEB BUSH to act on Schiavo’s behalf — and Jeb Bush chose to do so under a special law that was passed in response to the Schiavo case by the Florida legislature.
    The Schindler’s own doctors acknowledge that Schiavo is PVS, and although they claimed that they could improve her condition, they offered not the slightest bit of scientific evidence to back up their claim, while Michael Schiavo’s doctor, and an independent doctor appointed by the court, all provided voluminous scientific evidence showing that there was nothing that could be done for Terri Schiavo.
    There is no “rush” — the facts have been established over and over and over again.
    (the Schiavo controversy is a case study in how wingnuts will completely ignore ALL THE RELEVANT FACTS in pursuit of a completely insane ideological agenda. The only explanation for this whole controversy is that the wingnuts identify closely with Terri Schiavo because of her lack of cognitive function — the wingnuts survive without showing signs of cognition, simply reacting reflexively whenever the call goes out from wingnut central.)

  125. carsonfire Avatar

    paul_lukasiak, you’re so anxious to slap down a wingnut that you don’t seem to hear what I’m actually saying.
    I’m A Liar! because I’m a “wingnut”, apparently, although I’ve made it a point not to address any of the medical or scientific aspects, at all. All I’ve been addressing are the moral implications, the human questions. Perhaps anything that smacks of a moral question is “A LIE” to you? As much as you rail about lies, this is not a case of lies vs truth, or facts vs deception. It’s a human equation that must be judged based on what can be known.
    The actions of the parents are desperate. Because… they are desperate parents! They have an army of doctors and facts and logic against them, and on their side they have love and possibly unrealistic hope for their daughter. Yet invectives recreate them as monsters… that, despite any evidence. What is their evil, hidden motive supposed to be?
    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your position that the facts support the decision that the woman is beyond hope. I think I said that I’m kind of leaning in that direction, too.
    But the argument by the parents and their supporters (Republicans and *some Democrats* I now learn, which means this is not the partisan case that the leftist fringe and press is hyping) is that the husband is not the most reliable person to make this decision in this case. While I am not wholly convinced, I am not unsympathetic to the argument, either.
    I don’t know how I can make this point any more clear: I’m not completely disagreeing with the argument that the woman’s feeding tube should be removed; but I don’t understand the anger and rage directed at people taking the other side of what, regardless of the science involved, is a moral equation. This case is not an absolute, and even if it was, there is no harm in allowing the parents to appeal to the highest authority possible.
    The nattering about “bwah, Republicans are supposed to be for state’s rights” is the kind of thing that smacks of disingenuous politics, *not* taking the side of saving a woman’s life. Again, even if I completely agree with you on the outcome, what purpose does it serve for you to act so nasty and reprehensible on such a sensitive issue?

  126. PeteK Avatar

    Carsonfire, both the parents and the husband seems to do what they do because of love and their belief that what they want is also what Terri Schiavo would have wanted.
    Personally I believe that the husband should be the one to decide even if there wasn’t any kind of evidence about her own wishes. Thus if the husband would have been the one wanting to keep her alive against the wishes of her parents I would have still supported him.
    And about people calling the parents monsters. Michael Schiavo has been accused by the right for doing it only for the money and actually for trying to kill her 15 years ago. You could enlighten me if you could find anything remotely as nasty being thrown at the parents. Also no Democratic senators/representatives have yet attacked the parents like Tom DeLay have attacked the husband.

  127. Sun Ho-Gyun Avatar

    I’m not sure if he loved his wife, but i’m sure it was such a difficult time for him to take care of his wife. However, I’m so curious why he didn’t divorce her. He has lived with another woman, and her parents could take care of her.
    I think, he’d better accede to Congress. Maybe her parents would take care of her better than him.
    If she were taken care of by her parants, there wouldn’t be any problem.