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Alterman & Wolfowitz

52 comments on Alterman & Wolfowitz

Alterman & Wolfowitz

: I find it intriguing that Eric Alterman does not join in the blanket vilification of Paul Wolfowitz engaged in by others. A week ago, Alterman went to a tony party (is there any other kind?) thrown by Tina Brown and Harry Evans and he wrote:

Though he was clearly the celebrity guest of the moment… Paul Wolfowitz was more whispered about than talked to last night. So I felt bad for the guy when I saw him standing by himself [note how I resisted the tempation to mock that moment of humanistic hubris -ed] and went over to see what cocktail party banter might yield in the way of global understanding. (I began with, and remain committed to, the admittedly controversial hypothesis that Wolfowitz is a genuinely misguided idealist

52 responses to “Alterman & Wolfowitz”

  1. Dishman Avatar
    Dishman

    I respect that.

  2. Hubris Avatar
    Hubris

    Jeff, you’re only saying this because Alterman was right about the war and you like to shit on Democrats all the time…oops, wrong thread. Sorry.
    – Oliver by proxy

  3. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    Nice touch, that.
    See, Jeff, you obviously made an impression with the Professor Pond Scum business, he’s still trying to get a handle on it. As you no doubt realize, even the critics didn’t argue with the epithet itself, but with the principle of using undignified language.
    Some one noted that sending Bolton to the U.N would mean he could do less damage than in D.C. interfering with Condie – so maybe the Wolfowitz appointment has the same basis. At the World Bank he’s at least out of the loop and doing less harm.
    Could some one suggest a good posting for Sen. Stevens?

  4. Andrew Tyndall Avatar
    Andrew Tyndall

    jeff–your indentation system has some snafu. It is not clear where we are reading you or you quoting alterman or alterman quoting cole. please clarify–andrew

  5. gandhi Avatar
    gandhi

    So the Republican in Democrat Clothing and another social-climbing nobody have spoken: “Wolfie Is OK By US!”
    If the nomination gets approved, it will no doubt be a direct result of this powerful new online coalition of bloggers! The new media has spoken!!
    Watch out, Kofi Annan – we’re coming for you next!!!
    Screw the world! Let me hear you say YEAH!
    USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! (rpt ad nauseum…)

  6. Hubris Avatar
    Hubris

    gandhi, you actually would use the phrase “ad nauseum” in reference to someone else? Your temerity is almost awe-inspiring, I’ll give you that.

  7. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    I can’t make heads or tails of who is quoting whom is talking to whom is chatting urbanely with whom in the blockquotes above.
    Hubris, I’m glad you don’t read my blog. Ouch.

  8. Knemon Avatar
    Knemon

    For future reference: it’s ad nauseAm.
    /pedantry

  9. Darwin Avatar
    Darwin

    gandhi gets my vote for “least entertaining left-wing troll of 2004.” For chrissake, I’d rather read Robert McClelland and his “blahg” than this maroon. Soo boring.
    =darwin

  10. Yehuda Cohn Avatar
    Yehuda Cohn

    Jeff:
    I fail to see the point of your “compare and contrast” commentary. I read Cole’s commentary and it seemed pretty straight forward. He said he had nothing against Wolfowitz personally, but serious disagreed with politics, which he went on to describe in accurate, but unflattering terms. So what? I don’t see the problem.
    I think Cole is far more honest than Wolfowitz (or Jonah Goldberg). Not only do I question your point, I question your motivation in writing this piece as well.

  11. Yehuda Cohn Avatar
    Yehuda Cohn

    Darwin:
    I thought this blog was for reasoned discourse, not juvenile name-calling. Perhaps you should find another blog where people appreciate your immature sense of humor.

  12. John Avatar
    John

    If Wolfowitz is a misguided idealist, may I then assume that guided idealism increases in direct proportion to self delusion?

  13. kl Avatar
    kl

    “I thought this blog was for reasoned discourse, not juvenile name-calling.”
    Like… “social-climbing nobody”?

  14. John Newquist Avatar
    John Newquist

    “I’m impressed with Alterman on this. Of course, he doesn’t agree with Wolfowitz on Bush or the war in Iraq. But he is recognizing that even Wolfowitz, vilified as the warmongering Kissinger of our age by some, can be motivated by idealism.
    Alterman is finding common thread with Wolfowitz. That is not trivial.”
    It *ought* to be trivial. Which is, probably, the real reason you’ve referred to Juan as pondscum.
    John

  15. MPF Avatar
    MPF

    Why should it be trivial?

  16. hey Avatar
    hey

    MPF:
    it ought to be trivial because people shouldn’t call the opponents nazis, invent anti-semitic conspiracies, etc. unfortunately basic civility can not be assumed, so its existence is no longer trivial.

  17. carsonfire Avatar
    carsonfire

    A rather heart-warming scene. I still get excoriated by friends and colleagues for being a horrible right winger (and by extension, I’m guilty of murder, etc) when the subject of politics comes up… it would be nice if we can get back to a place where political differences are simply differences of opinion and not Crimes Against the World.

  18. MPF Avatar
    MPF

    Aha – thanks for that.

  19. MPF Avatar
    MPF

    I empathise with you Mr. Carsonfire – try being a DC Dem who supports the war effort. Outside the Capitol Dome and White House and some of the outlier federal buildings, this town is awash in people who think – seriously – that the President is Hitlerian AND stupid AND venal (a difficult combo to pull off, grant you – you’d think he’d at least get points for triangulating so deftly).
    If I go to Tulsa I’m a Commie. Here I’m a Nazi. At least there’s always football season just around the corner . . .

  20. Jos Bleau Avatar
    Jos Bleau

    Forget about what Alterman’s politics are, since he mostly does. Usually he just plays to his crowd. Sometimes his ego gets the better of him and he produces something original and insightful, like this time. Don’t worry, it won’t last.
    All in all, Alterman’s like a bizzaro version of Christopher Hitchens, who’s work is almosy always great, except when ego (or sobriety) overcomes him.

  21. carsonfire Avatar
    carsonfire

    Argh, I definitely sympathize with you, too, MPF. Maybe that’s why so many right wingers read JJ… that may be the common bond between moderate Democrats and Republicans that transcends ideology.
    I mean, I joke about DemocraticUnderground at times — but what’s not so funny is that many people I communicate with all the time seem to do a Dr Jeckyl/Mr DU act on me if it turns out that I have any conservative ideas whatsoever. If they find out I voted for Bush, it then winds up coloring every transaction thereafter. Where I was once a trusted friend, I’m now somebody to keep at a distance, and to question my possibly ugly motives behind every thought and action, even if it’s something they would agree with, otherwise.
    You know, sort of how Oliver Willis treats Jeff Jarvis.

  22. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    sorry about the indent problem earlier; terry heaton was nice enough to send me email; i caught it on my treo; snuck a fix from the middle of a meeting.

  23. Oliver Avatar
    Oliver

    Jeff: Eric Alterman hasn’t made a career out of slamming Democrats, something you and Joe Lieberman seem to delight in for the media. Alterman’s done much to help the left, and I find him misguided in his praise of Wolfowitz – a man who thought nothing of sending our troops off to a useless war and couldn’t even name the amount of them who have died – but that’s a difference of opinion, not a lame jab at the left that you seem to delight so much in.

  24. Geek, Esq. Avatar
    Geek, Esq.

    The big concern I have with Wolfowitz running the IBRD is that he seems to suffer from the same flaw that has characterized many of the bank’s failings–a tendency to embrace “big picture” thinking without bothering to acquaint oneself with the facts on the ground. A much better thinker than listener.

  25. gandhi Avatar
    gandhi

    “I thought this blog was for reasoned discourse, not juvenile name-calling.”
    Like… “Prof. Eeyore”?
    Like… “Prof. Bad Sushi”???

  26. kl Avatar
    kl

    Oliver, are you scared to call on Jarvis to resign?

  27. gandhi Avatar
    gandhi

    …it would be nice if we can get back to a place where political differences are simply differences of opinion and not Crimes Against the World.
    It would be nice to get back to a place where over 100,000 Iraqis are not dead, where the Geneva Convention has not been dismissed as quaint and obsolete, where international alliances have not been irreversibly damaged, where the USA is not a state sponsor of torture, where the White House was not the plaything of corporate criminals, militant ideologues and religious fanatics…
    Jee wizz… Maybe if we all just WISH REALLY HARD????

  28. MWB Avatar
    MWB

    Now that Alterman has impressed Jeff with his civility toward Wolfowitz, can we put Jeff and Brent Bozell in the same room and see what happens?

  29. kl Avatar
    kl

    “It would be nice to get back to a place where over 100,000 Iraqis are not dead, where the Geneva Convention has not been dismissed as quaint and obsolete, where international alliances have not been irreversibly damaged, where the USA is not a state sponsor of torture, where the White House was not the plaything of corporate criminals, militant ideologues and religious fanatics…”
    You forgot about the lack of WMDs!

  30. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Hubris,
    Great minds think on the same wavelength.

  31. carsonfire Avatar
    carsonfire

    Well, how can I argue with you, Gandhi? Your soul is clean. When you spend your life trembling with rage and pointing fingers at everyone else, then you have no worries, at all.

  32. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Hubris,
    Sorry for the “glad you’re not reading my blog” gibe. My mind was scrambled by the wonky indenting and thought you were poking JJ. Now I see that you were poking ghandi, with cause.
    Ghandi, I’m glad YOU’RE not reading my blog. Hubris – I wish you WERE reading my blog.
    Now ghandi, let’s talk, shall we?
    It would be nice to get back to a place where over 100,000 Iraqis are not dead
    Which dead Iraqis are you speaking of? The ones supposedly killed in the recent war, or the ones killed by Saddam? You must be referring to Bush’s war, because Saddam’s figure pre-Bush 43 comes close to 2,000,000 Iraqis and Iranians killed.
    As long as we’re engaged in this gruesome calculus, taking even the absurd figure of 100,000 Iraqis killed in the recent war, how long do you suppose it would have taken for Saddam to finish off more than 100,000 Iraqis if he had remained in power? His post Iranian war kill-rate was about Do you think we would have just stopped killing – pulled back the death squads, left the Kurds alone, filled the Marsh Arabs’ wetlands back up? Think Qusay would have let up after Saddam’s eventual death?
    What was the opportunity cost of NOT invading Iraq, sir?

  33. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Dan,
    Obviously, your blog would be nothing more than tones of rightwing garbage out there, as it is evident by your arrogant comment here.
    Instead of pretending to be so smart, open your almost permanently closed eyes to the reality. The reality that would tell you that US was a pertner to most of the crimes Saddam committed.

  34. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Faramin, you were a ‘pertner’ to most of the crimes Saddam committed. You and people like the CBC who asskiss terrorists….just like they and the Canadian govt asskissed the Air India terrorists by finding them not guilty of killing 331 people. What a country–haven for terrorists. Is that why you hide there?

  35. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Jeff, Jeff, Jeff… always bashing those Democrats! And so incivil! Oliver, otoh, calls Wolfowitz “filthy” and refers to Michelle Malkin by her maiden (Filipina) name.
    I think Ollie’s just mad that you were right about the invasion of Iraq deposing a tyrant and freeing tens of millions of people.

  36. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Faramin,
    I believe the question at hand is: What was the opportunity cost of NOT invading Iraq, sir?
    Not prepared to answer it?

  37. Jay Rosen Avatar
    Jay Rosen

    Jeff: I couldn’t follow this post. Even when I figured out that you were referring to Oliver Willis without introducing him.
    You lost me here for example: “After I met Wolfowitz, I took just such an Ollie Volley when he asked me (dispslaying a Colesque gift for subtle allusion) how I could wipe the blood off my hands. And even Alterman had to suffer such liberal scrunch-faced disgust from another quarter…”
    What’s supposed to be happening in that passage?

  38. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Jay,
    If I may…and Jeff will correct me if I am misinterpreting. Overall, Jeff is saluting Alterman for civilly recognizing Wolfowitz’s motivations as being based on genuine idealism (however much he may disagree with him or characterize it as ‘misguided), and in exercising restraint by not indulging in the left’s standard ‘blanket vilification’ of its perceived administration ‘enemies’.
    Jeff introduces OW’s ‘filthy’ comments regarding Wolfowitz in the ‘others’ link in the first sentence. In the paragraph you quote, Jeff is referencing a discussion he personally had with Wolfowitz and which he earlier blogged about. In response to that post, Jeff suffered OW’s charge that ‘he had blood on his hands’ merely (as I recall) for interacting with him. Then Jeff references an article by Jan Herman at blogcritics.org, in which Alterman suffers similar vilification regarding his conversation with Wolfowitz.
    [“Scrunch faced disgust” is a reference to Alterman’s description of Wolfowitz’ own reaction when he was asked if he read Cole’s blog.]
    Liberals like Jarvis and Alterman face denigration by the OW’s, Coles and Hermans of their own party for daring to converse with ‘the enemy’. If they should, even worse, happen to observe genuine ideological motivations in that enemy – or fail to eternally (and without exception, Ever) spout the rabid party line – they suffer further invectives, malignment, and even efforts to drum them out of their own party (ala OW re Lieberman).
    Hope this helps.

  39. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Dan,
    Of course I am prepared to answer your question, although you would not be the first person asking me this question and I have repeated my answer many times. Oh, well, I do one more time.
    It’s so simple. First of all, the US do not have the moral qualification to act against the tyrants, as its history has shown that it has been the biggest supporter of the tyrants and the dictatorships around the world. In short, US’s hands are too bloody and too dirty to act as a saviour. US has been the prime reason for many atrocities around the world.
    Secondly, even if the intention of criminals such as the current Bush adminsitration people was to help Iraqis get rid of Saddam (which is not the case), they would first lift the 12 year crimianl sanctions on Iraq that effectively resulted in the death of thousands of Iraqis, especially children. The sanctions not only did not effect Saddam’s regime, but also it directly effected the lives of ordinary Iraqis who were the real sufferers of the sanctions. Saddam continued living in his palaces.
    In short, financially and politically supporting (with good intentions, of course) the Iraqi opposition and Iraqi people, would have been the best way to help Iraqis achieve what THEY should have achieved by getting rid of Saddam. Of course, good intention is the key word as the US has always shown that it will act only if its greed motivited, corporate so-called interests are threatened.

  40. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    There are tens of millions of Iraqis living in freedom today; more of them believe their country is headed in the right direction and fewer think it’s going wrong than at any time since the U.S. invasion two years ago, according to a new poll.
    And most of them probably don’t give a damn what our intent was, or what people like Faramin think it was.

  41. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Dream on Everkart. Dream on. Instead of BSing like you did, why not commenting about the link I provided? Oh, well, I wasn’t interested in your typical justification-by-any-means, anyway. Keep reading USA Today and watching Fox and CNN. Perhaps you don’t even deserve better than the crap you are fed with in your small world. Let them digest everything for you.
    Because of the invasion, most of the Iraqis hate the selfish American arrogance, clearly represented by you and your alikes.

  42. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Faramin,
    I read your link. Read mine. In fact everyone should read both and decide for themselves where the U.S. fits in the grand scheme of atrocities.
    Or you can just consider that by Faramin’s logic no one should ever strive to improve the lives of others on this planet, as we are all sinners of one sort or another. Or we can just let Faramin be King, as he seems to have the psychic abilities necessary to determine what everyone else’s intent is.

  43. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Everkart,
    What you call “Faramin’s logic” is infact, what you wish that to be Faramin’s logic otherwise it has nothing to do with what I believe.
    Yes, we are all sinners, but some of us are so much in dirt that cannot be trusted; the case with the US is a good example of course.
    BTW, there is no need to have pschic ability to see what the intentions of the big US corporations, Big oil companies, military hardwear manufactureres and their puppets in the US administration are. Your leaders are of the most powerful but corrupt leaders in the world. Any child with little brain can see that, why not you?

  44. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    And because of the islamism, many of the Infidels hate the intolerant muslim arrogance, clearly represented by you and your alikes. You don’t say a peep when muslims slaughter millions–you just bitch if someone tries to intervene. You bitch about USA policy, what about intolerant islamic policy??
    http://www.danielpipes.org/talks/19980630.shtml

  45. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Kat,
    It is not my fault if your short term and long term memory is so non-functional. After about a year of exchanging comments (on my side) and crap (on yours), after tens of times of saying that my position is not of relgious, you keep calling me a Muslim. I have said it, what, hundred times? and you didn’t understood it, but I say that again: I don’t care about Islam as I don’t care about Christianity or judaism. To me they are ALL anti human deginity. But I am not agaisnt the followers of those religions. Islamic intolerance is as anti-human as Christian or Judaism intolerance. But each wear different closing and each have different tools for propaganda and power. The issue is not religion. The issue is that the religions, all of them, have become tools in the hands of those who are perfectly exploiting them fore their own interests. It is all about power, greed, money and profit and nothing else. Otherwise, I don’t see any tolerance in US when (admitteldy by it’s CIA official – see the previous link) kills 6 million people around the world. In lesser extend of course, I don’t see any tolerance in any of the words (call it crap) that comes out of you under the name of comment. With the attitude you and a couple of your like-minded and admireres show, you can easily become the butchers of Muslims, if you already are not. Just revisit your own comments. BTW, poor those who admire you that’s a lot telling about their sad state of mind.

  46. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    I’d pay for your leucotomy if you like…that’s if you choose not to strap on some semtex and blow. That’s pretty Christian of me.

  47. Ruth Avatar
    Ruth

    EWWW.
    Jeff said:
    “That is about recognizing that no matter how much any of us may disagree about the means, the end of spreading freedom is still the goal of optimists, idealists, liberals, and Americans. I’d like to hear more discussions that begin there. ”
    Onwards and upwards? You’re in a public place.

  48. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Faramin,
    Obviously, you didn’t bother to read my link, after accusing me of not reading yours. As you have again resorted to ad hominem,/i> attacks, everyone can safely conclude you really have no argument to offer, only anti-U.s. propaganda.
    Name a country more responsible for people living in freedom around the world. Has America’s record been perfect? No, far from it. The difference is that I see the U.S., warts and all; you see only the warts.

  49. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Everkart,
    You can dream as much as you want that I have no argument to offer. All I offer are facts and are mostly backed with links to what your own officials say. For example when I say US has killed 6 million people, it is backed by a link to what is admitted by your own guy. What argument could be better that those?
    I think that would also somehow answer your question as to Name a country more responsible for people living in freedom around the world.

  50. EverKarl Avatar
    EverKarl

    Faramin,
    The link I provided demonstrates in great detail that totalitarian regimes (Stalin, Mao, etc.) have killed far more people than the U.S. Moreover, the killings by those regimes resulted in enslaving people, not freeing them. Your reponse is another example of your inability to see either the bad things done by other nations or the good things achieved by the U.S.

  51. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Everkart,
    What Stalin or Mao did, does not lessen from the crimes US committed. Does it? I say US has murdered so many people, and you say, “oh Faramin you are showing your inability, Others killed too”. What the heck is the relevance? Now, this is a simple logic that YOU, not surprisingly, fail to understand. I guess that pretty much takes care of the “inability” rhetoric.

  52. Faramin Avatar
    Faramin

    Oh Everkart,
    Let me give you another example of US giving freedom to Iraqis. Of course not ordinary Iraqis but the criminals and abductors in return for spying for the US.
    Oh such “Great Liberators”.