Keller of The Times writes, again

Keller of The Times writes, again

: Here is the next installment in the email exchange between New York Times Executive Editor Bill Keller and me. The saga starts here and continues here. Bill’s latest:

Dear Jeff,

Thanks, first of all, for taking my letter in the spirit intended, for taking the sarcasm in stride — and for encouraging any humor-impaired readers to do likewise. I try to keep my smart-aleck tendencies in check these days, but I can’t seem to get anywhere near that 12th step.

Frankly, I don’t find much of anything in your reply to disagree with. I regard the blogosphere as both a treasury from which we draw ideas and information, and a stimulating bull session where our work lives on. It’s only natural that in the blogosphere, a medium with a very low threshold, you find a lot of self-indulgent nonsense, misinformation, propaganda and paranoia. But I have an equally long and more unforgiving list of complaints about the more traditional media. My quarrel with the blog world, to the extent I have one, is really with the zealots — the people whose pose is revolutionary, whose articles of faith are that All Information Must Be Free (as if we should stop paying Dexter Filkins to risk his life in Iraq) and that Editing Is Evil (abolish those fact-checking departments and copy desks and let the Truth emerge organically from the collision of blogs) and so on. My anxiety about the blog world is not that it will put us out of business but that it contributes to an erosion of middle ground, that it accelerates a general polarization of the nation into people, right and left, who are ardently convinced and not very interested in exposing themselves to facts or ideas that contradict their prejudices.

You describe yourself as a Pollyanna, but I think the word you are looking for is one that has been sadly degraded: politician. I’m convinced that the most important division in human affairs is probably not the one between left and right, liberal and conservative. It’s the one between zealotry and understanding, between absolute conviction and compromise, between preachers and politicians. True believers, whatever their persuasion, tend to start with the answer and therefore they don’t have to THINK about the question. They have moral clarity, often achieved without the benefit of information or reflection. (Full disclosure: my own Claremont connection is Pomona College, and I’m paraphrasing a commencement address I gave there a few years ago. And I tweak bloggers for being self-referential??)

As for your meeting proposal, I’m as sociable as the next guy. I’ll give you a call.

Please feel free, btw, to deal with this after your vacation. I keep imploring people at The Times to have a life; there’s no reason you shouldn’t have one, too.

Cheers, Bill

And here is my response. (The references to pinholes and circle jerks are, in case you’ve been on vacation too, from Keller’s speech at Columbia.)

Dear Bill,

Thanks for the reply (and for the vacation dispensation).

We do, of course, agree about most of this. But we do disagree about whether the blog world will erode the middle ground or can help rediscover it. Certainly, I understand misapprehension about the zealots of online who collect at the edges. They’re unpleasant bunches, yet they do not represent their fellow bloggers any more than squeegee men represent their fellow New Yorkers or local radio-news hacks their fellow journalists.

I’ll argue instead that it is big media who have, to use your words, accelerated “a general polarization of the nation into people, right and left….” Who is trading on the notion that we are suddenly a land of red v. blue but big media? Except for the oddities of the electoral college, as you know, our political maps would more accurately show us to be a nation of urban vs. exurban. Or I could be really difficult and contend that the close votes in the last two presidential elections actually indicate that we are getting closer. Big media have made division the key narrative of the age.

So next I’ll argue that by allowing a wide variety of opinions and perspectives to find voice online, blogs can improve the discourse and will help us reclaim that middle ground. The national debate is not served by homogenizing discussion and disagreement into the one-size-fits-all package that big media has had to become or into the one-from-column-A/one-from-column-B teetering balance of cable news. Don’t we often say, nostalgically, that towns were better served when they had many newspapers of differing views serving varied audiences? Isn’t that what blogs resurrect: the cacophony of the town square?

Are blogs an echo chamber? On the edges, they are. But there is a vast middle ground of people who are neither red nor blue and defy such simplistic media categorization. We are who we are and our blogs represent us. Also note that we link to those with whom we disagree so we can disagree. That cacophony of voices and viewpoints seems so unruly to those of us who’ve made our living ordering the world for print. But the noise is good. It’s democratic. If we’re going to look for closed societies and echo chambers, shouldn’t we look at the gang covering the prepackaged press conference that’s now a cable commodity? Shouldn’t we, as NYU’s Jay Rosen has urged, raze spin alley?

From my own experience, blogs have made me more open to different political viewpoints (to the occasional consternation of those on either edge). From a journalistic perspective, blogs have taught me that news should be a conversation and that when big media acts as if the story is done once it’s printed, that is just about as closed-off as the closed-minded refusing to hear another side. Closing discussion is aggravating to those who have more to say. So the problem is not that we have too many voices but that too few are heard. That’s the real pinhole.

The trick, then, is how big media can take advantage of the new town square and let it be heard to find the middle ground, the common ground. Bloggers already know well how to take advantage of the reporting and editing of big media; the work of reporters is our link blood. Both camps need to acknowledge the value of the other and recognize that, indeed, their common enemy is zealotry and ignorance. That’s my hope.

One more word about roles: I know that almost every blogger, once tied down, will agree that most reporters are invaluable. If you tie me down, I’ll say the same about many editors (though when I once asked Nick Denton in an instant message why we liked blogging so much, he replied with characteristic eloquence, “No editors,” and I agreed). I admire your attempt to reclaim the role of the politician as one who finds wise compromise; good luck. But last night, when I read your email from my Treo to my sister, the Rev. Jarvis — a most moderate and mainstream Presbyterian pastor — she did object to your lumping preachers with zealots. And that’s the problem with all these roles: There are bad reporters and ham-handed editors and deaf politicians and blind preachers and venomous bloggers but we should not judge any of these roles by their worst. So in trying to tell bloggers not to judge journalists by their worst or journalists bloggers by their worst I am still a damned optimist.

Oh, and who says bloggers don’t have editors? You should see all the circle-jerk jokes I edited out of this email.

All the best,

-jeff

23 responses to “Keller of The Times writes, again”

  1. /pd Avatar

    Bill Sez:”My quarrel with the blog world, to the extent I have one, is really with the zealots — ” – Well there are those in blogspher too who have beef with the radical’s– so its not only the MSM !!
    Jeff:”Bloggers already know well how to take advantage of the reporting and editing of big media; the work of reporters is our link blood.”
    I’ll take a lateral stance on this. The information is most areas don’t come from Reporters. You are comparing Blosphere vs MSM only. In all other areas e.g. Tech Info, it comes stright from Bloggers .. like Om Malik, Robert Scobles, Dave Winer, Doc etc etc.. I could name a few other areas which are not covered by MSM but certainly have a valid discourse in blogsphere.. hmmmmmm ..lets say topics like — cooking, knitting, plumbing to name a few !!

  2. Terry Heaton Avatar

    Keller would make an excellent blogger. Voices like his are needed in the discussion. Thanks, Jeff.

  3. Mike NYC Avatar

    Hi Jeff, this is great stuff. Thanks so much.

  4. Dan Avatar

    I don’t really understand how you can compare blogs to the Time. You might be able to compare blogs to the opinions page of the Time, but that is it. Jeff, you seem to want to be ‘on the same level’ and you want to compare blogs to the Times. I just don’t get that.
    The Time reports stories and facts. On the front page of the paper you will find facts regarding the war, economy, etc. Granted all thie Big Media puts a twist on it, whether they try to or not, they do it. Now I know that blogs are the same, they reports stories and put their own spin on it as well. But as an occasional reader of your blog and maybe 1 or 2 others, I will normally only see you link to a MSNBC or CNN article and then comment on what they said. Can something like that take the place of the Times?
    Don’t get me wrong, I love Blogs, I think it is an amazing form of expression that is going to become more and more popular. But I cannot take it as legit media. Maybe I wrong since I do not read everyday, but it sure seems like you want to considered equal to a paper such as the Times. The Times is who you singled out, but really, why not say you are equal to CNN, or anything else then. What you are is like I said in the beginning of this rant, someone that belongs on the opinion page of the newspaper. Just like when you make your appearances on the tv news channels, all you do is offer in your opinion during a 15 minute piece.
    I do not write this to take anything away from bloggers, or what you do Jeff. I enjoy your blogs.

  5. PJ Avatar

    Keller fails to note that we choose to read blogs; we choose to cancel the newspaper subscription. Why do we do that–are we all “zealots”?
    No one likes to have his views challenged or to have people walk away from them in mid-speech, but that’s what’s happening to the legacy media and they don’t like it. It’s never happened before, at least in their journalist-as-hero lifetimes.
    We are no more polarized than the Sunnis versus the Shia who still have not “spiraled” into destructive “civil war” as the media have been predicting for a year. Nor are we blue and red antagonists as the Kellers of the world would like to believe. They do not understand the world or human nature. We simply don’t believe their opinion disguised as news any more and are listening to other voices.

  6. J. Peden Avatar

    Jeff, you covered it well, but: “erosion of [the] middle ground”? Huh?
    Does Keller think he knows what the “middle groudn” is? Or apparently that if we just took opposite [or all?] positions and averaged them we would find truth?
    Does Keller think reporting/journalism amounts to running for office?
    “Reflection” does not produce a “middle ground”, either.
    The same for his comparison of understanding vs zealotry. And is there a “middle ground” between these two?
    At the risk of “zealotry”, I say that Keller is irritatingly obtuse and appears to be unable to reflect upon his own thought. But to understand, one must observe and rethink given further input. So “bring it on”.
    At another risk of zealotry, I say the blogger free-for-all of thought rules, or is the model of free-thought. Thought control via filtering for “correctness” such as finding the “middle ground”, economically powered shouting or saturation, or banning of different, threatening-to-dogma thought is the antithesis of free-thought.

  7. JennyD Avatar

    Jeff, this is great. Your response is wonderful. A couple of points:
    Keller has not yet considered how to make the Times part of a conversation. So far, he doesn’t seem to be interested in it. It’s his news, his reporters, and that’s that. In fact, I get the sense he views blogs as a sort of intellectual amusement, rather than new media with subtantive content. I don’t think he worries about circulation erosion, etc.
    I agree with him that Dexter Filkins’ work is wonderful, and that big media outlets may be the only organizations to do some of that. But there are more issues at stake than just the work of foreign correspondents.
    Finally, I think Keller and others (I’m thinking Steve Lovelady) have come to realize that tone really matters in blogs. Smart aleckness sounds just like that, and outright insults (salivating morons?) sound like that too. Tone is in part what makes some bloggers respected and well-read. Along with presenting well-researched opinions and staying open to new ideas and new ways of thinking.
    I hope Keller has learned that about blogs too.

  8. Tom Tyler Avatar

    It is not true that blogging must depend on Big Media.
    I covered the Iraq election with news and commentary from Iraq by relying on a blog network set up to do just that.
    The result was a clearer and far more accurate — and HONEST — picture of what was actually going on in Iraq than has ever once appeared on a news broadcast of the old networks or on the front page of the NYT.
    And the only reference I made to Big Media was simply to let my viewers know why we were not using Big Media at all to cover the election, but instead were simply presenting a page reporting on the distortions of the election coverage they delivered.
    Further, Big media is not all there is, even outside of blogs!!!!
    There are millions of sources of fresh news on the web!
    For example, Friday by internet video I will be covering a commitee hearing of the Texas Legislature and I will be following up the hearing with questions by internet phone, no long distance charges involved. Of course I’ve already done much of the research and will likely be required to do much more by web.
    Austin is 150 miles from here.
    The Houston Chronicle has an Austin bureau.
    Not a single word about this committee hearing will appear in the Houston Chronicle.
    My veiwers will watch it live from my website.
    I will write a detailed story about a major issue of the hearing.
    This story will include video outtakes, tons of links, etc etc etc.
    Why do I need the Chronicle, the Austin America-Statesman, the news stations?
    The answer is I don’t and neither do my viewers.
    Tom Tyler
    http://www.thetexastimes.com
    Houston NASA/Clear Lake Bay Area

  9. Cog Avatar

    “My anxiety about the blog world is not that it will put us out of business but that it contributes to an erosion of middle ground, that it accelerates a general polarization of the nation into people, right and left, who are ardently convinced and not very interested in exposing themselves to facts or ideas that contradict their prejudices.”
    Hmmm. Exactly my thoughts on the NYT’s slide into overt partisanship over the last 2 years. And I may be wrong, but the NYT’s circulation and sphere of influence is slightly larger than most weblogs.

  10. EverKarl Avatar

    Blogs may, but need not, “erode the middle ground.” The U.S. political structure is (with some exceptions) a “winner take all” system (or “first past the post” if you want to be more neutral about it).
    In contrast, blogs can represent a wide array of views. Jeff is an example: a reluctantly pro-war, but otherwise liberal Kerry voter. Glenn Reynolds is a pro-war libertarian (though I believe he’s still a registered Democrat). Andrew Sullivan is generally conservative, but critical of the war and one of the country’s leading advocates for same-sex marriage. Neither Kevin Drum nor Matt Yglesias are liberal, but neither are doctrinaire. There are blogs like The Moderate Voice.
    Are there blogs out on the fringes? Sure. Are there “newspapers” in the same category? Sure. I’ve seen Lyndon LaRouche put one out. I’ve seen “alternative” weeklies that think Fidel Castro was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I haven’t seen any put out by white supremecists, but I’ll bet there are such papers. Folks like Bill Keller ought to give his readership a little credit for being able to sort out the media. This is especially true when you consider that younger, more tech-savvy readers grew up on television and usually have a finely-tuned sense of spin. Indeed, I would suggest that’s one of the NYT’s problems.

  11. tony Avatar

    all the nyt has to do is let some of their columnists turn into pro bloggers on the nyt’s site and lots of his fears will disappear because the nyt will create a third type of blogger: the professional.
    they could also make a group blog (much like Reason’s Hit and Run) where reporters work as a team to blog about breaking news as it happens.
    a great newspaper will venture into the pro-blogging world one day. a courageous paper will do it. it would be nice if it’s the paper of record.

  12. gandhi Avatar

    Wow, Jeff… you really told him off, eh???
    So what happened to all that phoney hysteria about the Sarah Boxer article? What happened to the demented cries about putting the Fadhil brothers’ lives in danger???
    Your bum-chum attitude to the head of the paper you so loudly decried reveals you as just another media whore… Your fake outrage got you a foot on the ladder, which is all you really wanted.
    I congratulate Keller on a level-headed and open-minded response to your hysteria, but I cannot help feeling that he will regret it. The Bush warblogging machine will turn on him as viciously as it did on Eason Jordan, given the opportunity.

  13. Leonard Witt Avatar

    Jeff–(and Bill):
    As I said in my earlier email please agree to continue this important discussion face to face at The Journalism and the Public: Restoring the Trust conference on August 9 in San Antonio. You can find more information about it at the Public Journalism Network (PJNet.org) website; we are developing the program right now. This is great stuff.

  14. Kadoom Avatar

    Thanks Jeff, for continuing this exchange, and hopefully here where we can all consume it, and not in some conference or private meeting. Both you and Bill Keller are good bloggers and worth following.
    I posted (see link) a question and related comments entitled “Are Bloggers Journalists?” where the only real thesis is that we bloggers should be left alone. We do not force anyone to read us, leave us with just one click, but don’t take away our right to have our say.
    Our blogs may be intelligent or not, right or left, considered or not, researched or not, edited or not, but the constant attempt both by the mainstream media and by the ‘respectable’ bloggers demonstrates a fear that is not becoming.
    Now they are bringing up the ethics issue, many using it to discredit the medium even further.
    My message is, just leave us alone, will ya!

  15. Colin from Bklyn Avatar

    Good debate, very worthy of the SPJ daily press notes. The problem is that the “dark blogosphere” is not the blogosphere that gets on TV; the lunatic fringe is, with some–but too few–exceptions (e.g., or possibly i.e., you). Who the hell voted those guys spokespersons for the blogosphere? They get infotainment screen time because they are infotainment incarnate. TV likes the rhetorical equivalent of the WWF. I know Jon Stewart and his BitTorrent audience agrees with me.
    As to editors: You and Nick are no doubt wise and experienced enough to edit yourselves. Nick certainly knows his readers pretty well: they’re not the readers of the FT, his struggling former employer, but the same wankers who helped Maxim whip Conde Nast at its own game inside of six months a few years back. (Disclosure, I’ve freelanced for the “laddie” magazines, enjoy them, and kind of respect those Cockneys over there who line up the supermodels and spend all day supervising the airbrushing out of the nipples).
    And there is a case to be made for disintermediating the role of the editor “reader’s advocate” when you have forums to do that for you more directly. On the other hand, those forums can easily turn into echo chambers. You start believing your own fan mail, you start to confuse editorial and marketing inside your own skull. You need a private interlocutor to reality-test you once in a while or you turn into a hack. Look at Andrew Sullivan, IMHO. It ain’t pretty.

  16. Jon Garfunkel Avatar

    Jeff, you owe me one, and here’s what I’d like to know. Why are you wasting your time with the Times? You’re the President of Advance.Net, and The New Yorker is in your portfolio. Why is their online user forum a piece of junk? I’d bet that a blog isn’t what they want, but can’t they have some improved user community? As a seven-year subscriber, I’m kind of miffed about it.
    Jon

  17. JennyD Avatar

    I have to agree with Jon. Jeff, I live in a place served by one of Advance Net’s local web sites, you know, the sites kind of anchored by a Newhouse paper, or a group of papers. AFter reading your blog, I’ve been expecting mine to turn into some fabulous version of the Greensboro experiment, or some important citizen-driven media.
    It appears you could make this happen with some ease, given your job. Why waste your time with the Times when you could change media without them?

  18. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Jon & Jenny: I have said before that I don’t discuss my employer’s policies here because it’s not the proper forum for it and because I am in clear conflict of interest and because no one can ever explain the workings of a company and sound sane when it’s over. That’s a joke, boss. You should know that I was involved in the development of the magazines’ sites but I’m not involved in the ongoing management of them; I’m working on other projects in that arena.
    Note, though, that we are about to test more local blogs to allow people in towns to blog without having to start their own blog (this from our experience at GoSkokie.com). Also, Jenny, we would love to have you blogging in your town!! And note that Jim Wolcott at Vanity Fair has a blog; it’s a first step.

  19. Lennie Avatar

    Blogs can erode the middle ground, but they don’t have to. The problem blogs have is getting people to find the middle ground. Bloggers and most people in general tend to gravitate toward others with their same beliefs. This can gradually make the middle ground harder to find because they only hear one sided conversations. There are a few bloggers trying to get people from across the spectrum to discuss issues. It is hard to get started though for the small sites. Personally, I am focusing on Christian Views and am attempting to get Christians of all persuasions to answer questions I pose every week. So far I am only attracting conservatives. We need to find a way of getting sites to work together to help people find the middle ground by getting both sides of an issue. Whether the middle ground gets lost will be up to bloggers.

  20. Jon Garfunkel Avatar

    Jeff– thanks for your explanation. Though in the defense of the Times I would suppose they are expecting you to experiment on your own house first…

  21. Richard Silverstein Avatar

    “My quarrel with the blog world, to the extent I have one, is really with the zealots — the people whose pose is revolutionary, whose articles of faith are that All Information Must Be Free (as if we should stop paying Dexter Filkins to risk his life in Iraq)”
    While I’m a subscriber to NYT & it fuels my blog in many ways, I just detest its arrogance & condescension as represented in Keller’s flippant comment about the Larry Lessigs of the world. No one’s arguing that NYT should go bankrupt and send Dexter Filkins home from Iraq. But why can’t NYT absorb more of the spirit of the blogging & web worlds by doing things like providing a more interactive website AND completely free & open links to its archives?
    For Keller to set up a strawman argument like this is preposterous & allows him to dismiss what should be a serious debate before it even begins. “When will they ever learn?”