Harvard starts

Harvard starts

: I’ll be blogging the confab as long as my sanity holds out.

: Alex Jones says that one (unfortunate) lesson that mainstream journalism can teach blogging is that credibility is fragile and mainstream journalism has lost too much of it in recent years.

: Jay Rosen is presenting his paper. He said the “war should be over between bloggers and journalists, the cartoon dialogue… Even though it makes for good feature stories and great blog posts, bloggers vs. journalists doesn’t help us much.” He said the tension between them will go on and its necessary and inevitable. But the tsunami story makes it “obvious that blogs have a role in journalism.”

Dave Winer said this morning that I was Jay’s Frankenstein. Jay said it’s the opposite. Jay’s right. He has made me think about media (read: my life) in new ways.

After summarizing his paper, he quotes Rebecca Blood saying that part of the reason for conflict is that blogging and journalism are in a “shared media space.” That is the reason the war is over because no one is leaving that space.

Jay is making a point he made on Brian Lehrer’s show a few weeks ago: that this not about the “media” but about the “press” and the press is now owned by the people. That is the real shift of power. “They have to share the press with the public.”

Isn’t that precisely the problem with CBS? Dan et al could not bear to share the press with the public. But the public demanded it. The public won that battle.

Jay says that journalists have been slow to recognize the debt they owe blogging and that is because this new medium — this new press — was not developed by them. The people who understand this new press — the ethic of the link, the art of conversation — are bloggers.

Jay recalls his first Bloggercon when Len Apcar, editor of NY Times digital, said that in 2002 a majority of NY Times readers are online yet even today a majority of the journalists at The Times think they work for the print product. “Actually, they’re working for an online newspaper that has a print edition.” Great line.

: Winer responds. He says there was never a war. “It’s hard to say we’re against anything.” He says we’re zealots, we’re optimists. What unites us, “the bond we share,” is our passion.

He says the boundaries are not easy to find anymore.

Exactly. It’s not us and them. That is what I said in my print days: An editor must believe he or she is part of the public the publication serves. If you separate yourself from that public, you fail.

Dave also says that too many of the stories in the press have been about bloggers vs. journalists and because journalists do — wrongly or rightly — feel threatened by bloggers, then when they write those stories, they are engaging in a conflict of interest.

I said that I agreed that there was no war and a war is destructive. But the tension is also beneficial: Each pushes both to be better. We shouldn’t just hug and call it over quite yet. We need to improve each other.

Lee Rainie of the Pew Internet and American Life Project — whose research on the size of this is invaluable to the medium — says the change is happening faster than we know.

: Jan Schaffer says we should be concentrating on how to serve the public: It’s not a platform question but a design question.

: John Hinderaker of Powerline puts in a plug for objectivity. It’s what he expects from The New York Times (but not of his Powerline, of course). He said the problem with the NY Times, CBS News, et al is that they lack “diversity” — that is, they’re liberals.

I don’t think that adding token conservatives to liberal publications is the answer.

The way to get diversity is for the entirety of media to find diversity and balance.

That is what is new: In the past, you had a one-size-fits-all, one-newspaper town. Now you have access to all the media of the world. That is what brings you diversity.

: I said I was having a flashback to the ’70s — and that’s not cool, maaaan — to my least favorite class in journalism school: the seminar about objectivity. ARRRGHHHH! Can’t we drop this boring argument? Jon Bonne of MSNBCi says he hates the argument. Jay Rosen whispers next to me, “not as much as I do.”

: I made a crack about Hinderaker as a Republican talking about hiring and diversity and he didn’t crack a smile. Oh, well, I thought it was funny. But then, nobody cracked a smile at my crack about my ’70s flashback, either. Tough crowd, man. Anybody here from out of town?

: Dan Gillmor says the public will have to do a lot more work to get the news; it won’t just land on their doorstep; we need tools to help them with this.

: While on the hit parade of old arguments, we got the argument that bloggers are an echo chamber seeking only their own views. I said that’s a red herring. We link to that with which we disagree.

Lee Rainie said that Pew found that the 15-20 percent of adult Americans (online or not) who eagerly seek news and information are more informed about views other than their own.

: Jay at the close says Bill Buzenberg of Minn. Public Radio raised a most important point when he said his reporters are learning that the audience knows things. Jay said journalism used to be thought of as a service to tell people who didn’t know something something. Now it’s about turning into finding out what they know and getting that back to them.

“The quality of your information is deeply related to the quality of your connection to the people you are trying inform,” Jay says. Amen.

: Jonathan Zittrain of Berkman sums up. He is thinking about law and how the members of its power system, the lawyers, are there to challenge the system (on behalf of their clients and stands). But law has become mean.

It makes us wonder whether journalists should be better at thinking it is their job to challenge their system.

He also says that the law is not challenged by amatuers but journalism is.

He says that journalism, like the law, is “really ill right now.” He says it is not setting the agenda. It is not speaking the truth.

He says that for lawyers, arriving at the truth is an adversarial system. “The person with two watches is less sure of what time it is than the person who has one.” In blogs, he says, there are thousands of watches.

: Hoder says in the IRC:

– Journalists can only report things.

– Scholars can only study things.

– Bloggers do things.

Don’t know yet whether I agree but it’s interesting that bloggers are usually accused of just sitting there commenting. But, indeed, bloggers do swarm together to accomplish things. Maybe I do agree.

: AFTERNOON…

: Jill Abramson, an editor at the NY Times, and Dave Winer, get kerfluffling together and I can’t summarize it well. But I entered in when she went on about the expense of keeping journalists in Iraq — which is true and for which we are grateful. But I started telling the story of Zeyad taking his camera to cover an antiterrorism demonstration last December that The Times didn’t cover. As soon as I mention it, Abramson starts shaking her head and looking away.

: Abramson said that it is “completely contrary” to the histyry and standards of The Times to run content that they do not vet.

: David Weinberger made great suggestions for things he wants. He wants to see the comments people make on Times stories. He wants to see the metadata around stories. He wants to see drafts online.

: Rick Kaplan, the head of MSNBC — the biggest blogsmart media outlet there is — says he and his colleagues in journalism celebrate the growth of blogs and believe that the excitement blogs are stirring up will save news.

: Jimbo Wales, founder of Wikipedia, says that a few years ago, nobody could have predicted that a bunch of unpaid citizens could replace the Encyclopedia Brittanica with its budget of $350 million but it happened. He said that the business model of The New York Times is not sustainable. Abramson shudders, of course. Kaplan said Wales doesn’t know what he’s talking about; he has not been in a place like Baghdad and does not know the dififculty of getting information there and does not know how the existing system can be replaced.

:Hinderaker goes back to Bill Mitchell’s question from his presentation, in which he asked what tool we need to help build trust. Hinderaker says it would help to show us the material behind the story. The attitude bloggers have is — via the link: “See for yourself. Don’t take our word for it.”

: Chris Lydon gives us his best Emerson quote ever: “Do not destroy the mass media but liberate the individual from the mass.”

24 responses to “Harvard starts”

  1. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    Jeff….
    may I suggest that you ask Rebecca to set up an “open thread” for comments/reaction to the conference on the JoBloCred page?

  2. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    ARRGGGGHHHH! as predicted, the predominance of right-wing bloggers has given Hindrocket the opportunity to complain about the “liberal media” — without rebuttal

  3. jonny goldstein Avatar

    You’ve got a couple of typos, Jeff. My caps show the problem areas. Keep it coming! Great blog.
    Jay is making a point he made on Brian Lehrer’s show a few weeks ago: that WE THIS not about the “media” but about the “press” and the press is now owned by the people. That is the real shift of power. “They have to share the press with the public.”
    That is what is new: In the past, you had a one-size-fits-all, one-newspaper town. Now you have access to all the media of the world. That is what brings you DIVERITY.

  4. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Jonny: Thanks. You copy edit my ass.

  5. Max Kalehoff Avatar
    Max Kalehoff

    Jeff: Regarding…”Jay Rosen is presenting his paper. He said the “war should be over between bloggers and journalists, the cartoon dialogue… Even though it makes for good feature stories and great blog posts, bloggers vs. journalists doesn’t help us much.” He said the tension between them will go on and its necessary and inevitable….sharing press space, etc.”
    The blogger-versus-journalism debate is likely to go the way of Dan Rather as the old journalism and media-business fogies grow old and pack their bags for their Florida retirement communities. I’m speaking from the gut here

  6. bethl Avatar

    Commentary and editorial writings include opinions—–news reporting supposedly does not.Powerline does not report the news—actually the Times doesn’t either–they just pretend.

  7. Michael Zimmer Avatar

    Jay Rosen whispers next to me, “not as much as I do.”
    Back to the “ethics” of blogging – are all personal statements subject to global distribution via a blog? If I whisper something to you, is there a presumption that the comment was meant to stay between us? I don’t meant to disect this particular instance, but the general principle.

  8. Munir Umrani Avatar

    Much of the hostility that comes through when journalists and bloggers write about each other can be eliminated by stripping adjectives from articles. For example, Jeff Jarvis’s piece on Sarah Boxer and Iraq the Model would have been better, in my opinion, if 98 per cent of what I call angry adjectives were left out of his posts.
    So, will journalist and bloggers ever get along? Some will and some won’t. That’s because many journalists feel threatened by the new medium, while some bloggers seem to have a need to prove how tough they are on mainstream media (MSM), while feeding at the table on what MSM produces. This is not to say that bloggers shouldn’t correct MSM, we should. However, it can be done without the name calling and glee that’s exhibited when a MSM figure loses credibility or is wrong on a story. And we bloggers shouldn’t be so defensive when MSM calls us on the carpet when we make mistakes. In that regard, many of us respond exactly like MS figures when they are called out on an issue.
    On the other hand, MSM has to realize that it can’t dismiss bloggers the way one swats an annoying fly. Bloggers perform a great service, and will continue to do so. But we should keep in mind that one day we will be old media with the new kids on the block nipping at our heels.

  9. /pd Avatar

    WSJ brings this news item on a blogger
    WSJ:The audience for such alternative media is growing rapidly. The number of Americans reading blogs jumped 58% in 2004 to an estimated 32 million people, according to a Pew Internet and American Life Project, with about 11 million looking to political blogs for news during the presidential campaign.
    Zimmer: yuu bring about a good question. In fact Blogsphere has a debate happening on the impact of RSS feeds/comments and distribution. Rule of the thumb beween bloggers is that if you dont want to syndicate your content- dont blog. !!
    Max: A blogsurvery I culled from MIT. It’s pretty recent.
    Back to the point. It’s only when Bloggers learn to be like journlists and when journalist learn to adopt to blogsphere.. will the gap narrow.. My main purpose of discoursing all this here , is to learn more on the objectivity of journalism. I blog, but then again- I am not a journalist. Do I have creditability and trust- yes. Amongst my own readships and subscribers.. Do I want to make news – no not really…Do I want the divide to narrow — certianly !

  10. Michael Zimmer Avatar

    – Journalists can only report things.
    – Scholars can only study things.
    – Bloggers do things.
    Couldn’t you argue that the first two are necessary conditions for the third?

  11. p.lukasiak Avatar
    p.lukasiak

    there are really two different blogger v journalism wars going on. The right-wing objects to journalists filing factually accurate stories that they don’t like. The left wing objects to factually inaccurate stories that they don’t like.
    The right want’s an ideological press (you seldom see the right criticize fox) the left wannts a factual one (you see the left criticize the supposed liberal NYTimes constantly…)

  12. /pd Avatar

    Zimmer- Actually, I can’t aruge the point :)- You nailed it there. Theres not much “wiggle room” with that statement !!!
    Disclaimer: I only blog !!

  13. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    “The right-wing objects to journalists filing factually accurate stories that they don’t like. The left wing objects to factually inaccurate stories that they don’t like.”
    Now that’s the sort of precise thinking that wins elections.

  14. paul_lukasiak Avatar

    Now that’s the sort of precise thinking that wins elections.
    right wingers never consider that the predominance of political progressives in journalism is not because of institutional bias, but results because the more someone knows, the more likely one is to be a liberal.
    Its difficult to dispute the PIPA data, which shows that Bush supporters on the whole did not have a clue about the most basic facts on the issues that they cared mosts about. Despite the fact that the Iraq/WMD myth and the Iraq/al Qaeda myth had both been exploded, Bush voters continued to considered them established facts.
    Liberals want accurate reporting because they know that the more accurate information people get, the more likely they are to support liberal candidates and liberal policies.

  15. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Yep, seems to be working great so far.

  16. Dishman Avatar

    : Abramson said that it is “completely contrary” to the histyry and standards of The Times to run content that they do not vet.
    Duranty? Blair? Boxer?

  17. Dishman Avatar

    Wretchard adds “Haifa Street” to the list
    http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2005/01/demon-in-dark.html

  18. Patricia Avatar

    I’m surprised nobody brought up the big elephant in this blog/journalism room: money. Bloggers are siphoning away readers, subscriptions are down, and the internet in general has eaten up a lot of the print classified ad income.
    Not only are bloggers challenging their priestly status but eating up media’s profits. They’re afraid for their jobs. It’s no wonder MSNBC likes blogs; they’re still the little dog in that pack.

  19. button Avatar

    Jill Abramson: DOOMED! Doesn’t get it!!
    Max Kalehoff, above in thread, makes a good point.
    The MSM is missing out on a great resource by not mining blogs. It’s their loss. At the very least, they could get new leads or ideas from the blogs.
    So far, only The UK Guardian which, I believe, is run by a kind of foundation trust, regularly provides outgoing links to other media or resources. The rest of the MSM seems to still want to clutch their readers to themselves. And this is a losing strategy.

  20. Tom Villars Avatar

    Not only are bloggers challenging their priestly status but eating up media’s profits.

    Patricia , I think you have identified exactly what is going to kill off big media. With Amazon.com, eBay.com, Monster.com, and the rest of the Internet taking an increasing share of the advertising market, big media will simply starve to death. Blogs are just one more .com piling on.

  21. Patricia Avatar

    I think the media have mined the blogs. For one, check out one of my favorite bits, Brit Hume’s Grapevine–a lot of it is similar to what I’ve read on blogs and Taranto’s column. Or maybe the mining is vice versa, but there is a definite synergy happening.
    (And thanks, Tom)

  22. Robert McClelland Avatar

    Yawn. Is this back patting circle jerk ever going to end?

  23. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Are you feeling okay? You forgot to mention right-whingers.

  24. Jeff Hess Avatar

    The whole blogger vs. journalist thing is just silly. A journalist is a person who is either: a writer who aims at a mass audience; or someone who keeps a journal. Both definitions (courtesy of Merriam-Webster) apply to bloggers. The competition is among print journalists, broadcast journalist and Internet journalists.
    The size of the company you work for and the pay check you receive is important, to the person doing the work and getting the paycheck. Larger companies have greater resources to allow their journalists to dig for a story. Bloggers, in general, can