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Secular Britain

38 comments on Secular Britain

Secular Britain
:

: A new survey finds most Britons don’t believe in God. Compare with Americans here.

To say that Britain is rapidly becoming a godless country would be too strong, but a YouGov survey provides overwhelming evidence that the British are now a largely irreligious people.

Only a minority believe that God exists and almost everyone acknowledges that Britain is becoming an increasingly secular society.

There is little or no evidence of active hostility towards either religious people or religious beliefs.

Instead, the national mood appears to be one of benign indifference. Most people give the impression of regarding religion almost as a consumer good, one to be consumed by those who happen to have a taste for it.

Now I’m sure some of the folks who argued with me over religion will see this as a sure sign of the path down which we’re headed, now that we’ve happy-holidazed ourselves, a sure sign of a worldwide war against religion. I don’t. America still thinks of itself as a religious nation (though a heckuva lot more people say they’re religious than go to services; a heckuva lot more people belong to churches than go to services in many places). And I note in this story a strong tolerance of religion by the nonreligious; in the recent discussion here, the assumption by many — wrong, I believe — is that the secular are hostile to the religous. Live an let live — eternally or not — that’s the attitude I see.

38 responses to “Secular Britain”

  1. daniel Avatar
    daniel

    People naturally don’t go from religious to anti-religious – they usually go thru the apathy stage first.
    This is definitely a sad/bad sign for the future.

  2. Andreas Duess Avatar
    Andreas Duess

    How can religious tolerance by the non-religious possibly be a bad thing? As Jarvis said, live and let live appears to be the general consensus. I am all for that.
    British society has a long history of tolerance and acceptance. I am glad that this attitude continues to exist.

  3. Seppo Avatar
    Seppo

    So please explain what incentive these tolerant, thoroughly secular societies have to remain tolerant and to avoid descending into dangerous territory? How deep are the roots of their current, apparent virtue?
    As in one’s personal life, a nation’s character is displayed not when times are good, but when life gets tough and there are big challenges.
    Will a feel-good, secular moral relative ethos be sufficient to sustain liberty, progress, justice and peace in times of peril? Maybe abandoning the underpinnings of past Western progress, flawed though the process unfolded, holds perils we might not be prepared for.

  4. Timothy Avatar
    Timothy

    Seppo, to quote: “This isn’t ‘Nam, there are rules here.”

  5. kat Avatar
    kat

    Yes, Britain continues to be tolerant, just not to Christianity. Most 911 terrorists were recruited in European cities where traditional Christian beliefs had given way to secularism and liberal lifestyles…as Christianity was attacked, islam was coddled.
    THE Inland Revenue is considering recognising polygamy for some religious groups for tax purposes. Officials have agreed to examine

  6. Andreas Duess Avatar
    Andreas Duess

    Seppo, you appear to be equalling ‘non secular’ with ‘no morals’ or lawlessness.
    Personal beliefs, important and valuable as they are to the individual, have no place in the running of a country.
    That’s the main reason why our forefathers decided to separate church and state.

  7. reheatedsouffle Avatar
    reheatedsouffle

    Religious — Christians in particular– get defensive when secular groups (i.e. the ACLU) threaten school districts and small municipalities with law suits which are costly, and not just financially either.
    This sort of activism can hardly be described as

  8. David Avatar
    David

    Is there a reason why you only want to compare how “religious” americans are compared to europeans? Why not compare to the middle east, africa, asia, india…Or do you believe only christians are “religious” therefore the others can be disregarded?

  9. johnmonkey Avatar
    johnmonkey

    I don’t find this on the YouGov site.  What’s the source?

  10. Terry Avatar
    Terry

    Why anyone is surprised that people are moving away from religion is beyond me. Plain and simple, there is no customer service. Adherents aren’t getting anything discernible out of it, and there is no way to change it or complain or whatever.
    Christians at least go to church for the same message each week — at least the Catholics that I know — with them barely able to contain their yawns. I haven’t been to church in 15 years, and I don’t miss it one bit.
    Anyway, religion is silly, violent and divisive. Good riddance.

  11. jonny goldstein Avatar
    jonny goldstein

    Hallelujah. Live and let live. But I can see how this could be threatening to institutions that see proselytizing as their raison d’etre.

  12. David Nishimura Avatar
    David Nishimura

    Although the poll results may well be accurate, YouGov polls should hardly be taken as definitive. As the Telegraph article itself notes:

    YouGov elicited the views of 1,981 adults across Britain online between Dec 16 and 18. The data have been weighted to conform to the demographic profile of British adults as a whole. YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

    And as they say, online polls aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.

  13. pb Avatar
    pb

    “Why anyone is surprised that people are moving away from religion is beyond me.”
    It’s interesting that the competitive nature of America will actually lead to quite a religious society for some time to come. The competition for religious customers is so fierce that suppliers are putting out quite an attractive product. Despite that most religions are grounded in fiction, it’s easy to convince the masses that the upside of believing is too great to pass up, no matter how illogical.

  14. Seppo Avatar
    Seppo

    Andrea, but without a deep religious basis for determining moral principles to apply, secular societies are subject to whim. Don’t confuse separation of church and state with overt rejection of religious belief.
    What will the unbelieving British and Europeans strive to do with their societies in another generation or two? Unschooled and scoffing at religions, they today justify such nonsense as “Israel treats Palestinians just like the Nazis treated the Jews” because they are unable to analyze such moral questions by reference to firm standards.
    Social-ism, national social-ism, and some other intellectual pastimes become attractive replacements for deity-based religious beliefs.

  15. Seppo Avatar
    Seppo

    BTW, funny how Mr. Jarvis, who is so outraged about all perceived forms of possible censorship, has on his site comment software that blocks un-hyphenated “social-ism” as “questionable content” LOL

  16. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    Seppo:
    First, censorship is what government does. Editing and party management is what I do.
    Second, the only restrictions in my comments come from MT Blacklist, which prevents comment spam. There must be some reason that word is blocked given spamming history of the community of blogs. It ain’t me, kid.

  17. Seppo Avatar
    Seppo

    Mr. Jarvis, I never intended to attribute the blockage to you personally.
    Just commenting that it was amusing that the commenting software blocks what can only be construed as political speech (you know, the stuff the First Amendment was all about in the first place). Free speech, not just the shock jock pandering stuff

  18. Jim S Avatar
    Jim S

    MT Blacklist isn’t bright enough to recognize the surrounding letters to place it in context so it only sees a common drug pronounced see-alice. It then blocks the post, an unfortunate effect for any blog discussing political and economic systems. I would hope that they are working on improvements to to MT Blacklist.
    kat, your post shows nothing that proves a hostility to Christianity on the part of Britain. Tolerance is something that you will never be accused of.
    Can we get off of the kick about how being Christian just makes you so moral and upright? The history of Christianity is full of as much immoral activity in its name and on the part of its practitioners as the good they’ve done. Crusades. Religious wars. Torture. Pogroms. Klan members who would kill and terrify people Saturday night and go to church Sunday mornings sure of their goodness. I’m not saying that Christianity is evil. What I’ve cited is true of most religions during their history. But this claim of how the non-religious must descend into evil just irritates me given the history of the religious.

  19. kat Avatar
    kat

    Well, the history of the non-religious takes second place to none when it comes to genocide and murder of its citizens–something like 200 million in a short while. Stalin, Mao Zedong,Kim Il Sung, Pol Pot, Enver Hoxha,etc. killed and slaughtered their own people at an unheard-of rate.

  20. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Pb says,
    “Despite (the fact, sic) that most religions are grounded in fiction, it’s easy to convince the masses that the upside of believing is too great to pass up, no matter how illogical.”
    You know, Pb, I’d love for you to cite Your ironclad authorities that most religions are ‘gounded in fiction’, or that believing in the divine is ‘illogical’, for apparently You are the omniscient one on these topics. {I say this based upon many of your posts.}
    Note that I observe this as someone who is not religious, but who is nonetheless spiritual.
    Have you ever experienced or observed a miracle in your existence? Do you even believe they occur? If your answer is no to the latter, further dialogue is a waste. Most M.D.s/scientists believe that something beyond us is at play in our existence.
    And maybe after you’ve been around the planet for a while longer, Pb… But even if you don’t ever get there, at least get off your holier than thou pedestal, and have a little respect for those who think and *believe* differently than you do.

  21. pb Avatar
    pb

    That “sic” is ridiculous, Eileen. That’s a fact. Religion is defintionally outside the natural. I should have said “all”.
    The divine, spirtual, religious, etc. is definitionally illogical. Your free to believe it and have your faith but don’t call it anything more, please.
    “Most M.D.s/scientists believe that something beyond us is at play in our existence.”
    Please show some evidence. The surveys I’ve seen report 40% belief (which seems crazy!).
    People follow religion because the downside is minimal and the upside massive, not because it has any grounding whatsoever in reality.

  22. pb Avatar
    pb

    And, no, I’ve never witnessed a miracle as defined: “An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.”

  23. Julian Bond Avatar
    Julian Bond

    Speaking as a Brit here. In the last 2 weeks I’ve read two reports. One was about how the USA had a wonderful religious tolerance that positively celebrated diversity (unlike those godless Europeans). The next report was about how 50% of Americans were in favour of civil liberty restrictions on Muslims. The contrast was a bit stark between the goal and the reality.
    This is purely personal opinion, I have nothing to back it up. My perception of northern Europe and of large parts of Southern Europe is that Europe has finally and successfully separated church and state. Church and religion is something you do in your own time in your own way and has nothing to do with politics or political and social governance. This is not to say that individuals are not religious or that systems of religious morals and ethics don’t affect public life. But it’s not a driving force for policy in the way it appears to be in the USA. I find this to be a *good thing* since I have a deep mistrust of evangelism, organised religion and the cult of the religious political leader. In this respect, I believe that Europe is not an old society clinging to old ways but is actually leading the way.
    Some of the comments above seem to suggest that without religious underpinning, personal and social morals fall apart into apathetic, anarchic chaos. It’s as though the religious view is that organised religion is the only moral framework that can maintain common decency or provide a basis for moral decisions. This is absurd, manifestly wrong and deeply offensive to those of us who strive to do the right thing, but don’t consider themselves to be religious.
    Religious – irreligious is orthogonal to moral – immoral and the way that fundamentalist, evangelist people of whatever faith attempt to equate the two is a very dangerous lie.

  24. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    “And, no, I’ve never witnessed a miracle as defined:”
    As I said, end of discussion.
    I truly hope you will.

  25. kat Avatar
    kat

    pb-newest survey. You tell these docs you’re smarter than they.
    A new survey of America’s doctors reveals three out of every four are believers in miracles.
    The poll of 1,100 physicians found 74 percent of doctors believe miracles have occurred in the past, and 73 percent believe they can occur today.
    The survey was conducted by HCD Research and the Louis Finkelstein Institute for Religious and Social Studies of the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York.
    “The picture that emerges is one where doctors, although presumably more highly educated than their average patient, are not necessarily more secular or radically different in religious outlook than the public,” said Dr. Alan Mittleman, director of the institute.
    The poll also indicated American physicians are “surprisingly religious,” with 72 percent indicating they believe religion provides a reliable and necessary guide to life.
    Those surveyed represent physicians from Christian (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian and other), Jewish (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular) Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist religious traditions.
    “Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey,” the report notes, “is that a majority of doctors (55 percent) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45 percent do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51 percent). Even more, 59 percent pray for individual patients.”
    Two-thirds encourage their patients to pray. Of those physicians, 5 percent did so for God to answer their prayers, 32 percent for psychological benefits and 63 percent for both reasons. One-third did not encourage their patients to pray. }

  26. pb Avatar
    pb

    Eileen, that’s a typical response from a believer. because it’s really the only possible response. Care to describe something you found miraculous that couldn’t have been supported by natural causes? Certainly anything related to health wouldn’t qualify as we all know how incredible the body is at healing.
    Kat, I’m pretty dumbfounded by those numbers, although I wish it was more clear on whether or not any non-religious doctors were surveyed. Although I think medicine is an area where faith is useful. And scientists in general still overwhelmingly doubt the presence of the super-natural or whatever you want to call it.

  27. Quentin Avatar
    Quentin

    Queer. The unhyphenated name of the political persuasion ‘social-ism’ cannot be posted because it contains what the language police program calls ‘questionable content: ciali..’ (with an ‘s’ at the end). Isn’t that a medicine for erectile dysfunction? Why would that be questionable?

  28. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    Quentin:
    It has nothing to do with “language police.”
    The comment-spam program won’t allow certain words becasue the spammers sell them. And, yes, that refers to that medicine. Blame the spam shitheads. And note that I can say shithead. That does through. Because no one sells shitheads but shitheads do sell shit.

  29. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    To Eileen and Kat, I’d just like to point out that just because something happens that we can’t explain, doesn’t mean that “god” intervened, or a “miracle” occured. It simply means we don’t know. Before we understood genes and heredity, people believed that left-handed people were cursed by the devil. We now know that’s not the case. Things that we can’t explain now, may be explained years from now.

  30. Sydney Carton Avatar
    Sydney Carton

    Actually, there’s plenty of evidence that an overtly secular society is one where discrimination and intolerance of religious believers quickly sprouts. As I recall, there is a minister of science or some other position in Britian who is a practicing Catholic, meaning that she believes that killing of a zygote is murder. The press hounded her for it, and all sorts of people questioned her ability to do her job. And then there was Rocco Buttiglione, who was denied the position of EU’s Justice minister because of his religion.
    Essentially, an overtly secular society discriminates towards believers by viewing them as unfit for public office. Their beliefs become disqualifiers. Far from being a private affair, their religious beliefs become a test of public office. It is a thoroughly disgusting practice and is only the beginning.

  31. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Pb, you didn’t cite anything to support your original blanket assertions; you only came back with more blanket assertions and generalizations. If you don’t believe in the divine or miracles, fine by me. Whatever floats your boat. I agree with JJ’s live and let live credo.
    But your comments are offensive to me. I certainly don’t plan to parade a series of miracle recitations that you would then attempt to use for skeet shooting practice. Why don’t you just google ‘miracles’ on your own and have a heyday? Better still, ask for a few to come your way. I double dog dare you. However, I don’t believe the Guys impose upon anyone, so you would probably have to have a bit of an open mind in order to experience some.
    Words I was gifted/given in a dream in the course of writing a book about finding and recognizing miracles (which may or may not ever get finished) were as follows: ‘The more you Believe in miracles and the more you Expect them, the more they happen.’ Not my words, I assure you.
    Ahh, but you probably think dreams are BS, too…
    I do find it interesting that, although you think all religions are fictitious, not gounded in reality and illogical, and although you dispute that doctors as scientists witness miracles due to the body’s ability to heal…etc., you nonetheless ‘think medicine is an area where faith is useful’. This all makes perfect sense to me, and represents superior logic when compared to that of the believers, I’m sure.
    May you, Richard, et al., at least remain open to the possibility that miracles occur. I’m asking ‘the Guys’ to send a few your way. For example, maybe notice repetitious synchronicities occuring in your lives to the degree that they can no longer be explained away as constituting mere chance or happenstance…

  32. pb Avatar
    pb

    No, dreams are completely understandable.
    And doctors with faith are like baseball players with superstitions: while there’s nothing really there, it helps in coping.
    Google “miracles” and you’ll instantly come back to earth. Few if any examples of actual miracles. Plethora of unconvincing arguments of how miracles could fit with a naturalistic view. Classes on the miraculous. etc. Ugh.
    Again, I ask, describe one single miracle that you have witnessed. One!
    Considering that the evidence is overwhelmingly against you, you should hardly feel offended. Quite the opposite in fact, which is why we rationalists don’t care for religion intruding on our lives.

  33. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    How about you provide One ironclad source (as I originally asked) which proves to my satisfaction the divine does Not exist, and then I’ll give you three. [Actually, receiving momentous words in a dream for use in a book which you know haven’t come from your own brain was already a great example. But of course you failed to recognize even the possibility that such an event might represent divine ‘assistance’. I highly doubt anything I provide would be regarded as anything other than unconvincing by someone like you.]

  34. pb Avatar
    pb

    “Actually, receiving momentous words in a dream for use in a book which you know haven’t come from your own brain was already a great example.”
    I don’t follow you here. If you’re suggesting that dreams are super-natural then I don’t know what to tell you other than that you are wrong.

  35. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    Pb, I’m sorry I don’t have more time to get into protracted discussions here, or address more of your naysaying (which strikes me as overly rigid to begin with). Even during the many years when I was agnostic I was nonetheless open to learning about ‘possibilities.’ If we could sit down together and discuss these issues, that would be great! But I don’t plan to submit my book to you via a comments section, or next debate the possibilities of communications via dreams.
    If it makes you feel satisfied/good to simply decide ‘I’m right, Eileen and All believers are wrong,’ have at it. As I said, whatever floats your boat.
    I nonetheless wish you well.

  36. pb Avatar
    pb

    One miracle, Eileen, one.

  37. Eileen Avatar
    Eileen

    You can’t prove your OWN original assertions that the divine is bogus, or that “most(!) religions are fiction”. I requested your authority(ies) and you provided Nothing! Of course not, because you Cannot! But failing that, you then demand ‘proof’ from me??? Nahh. Doesn’t work that way. I don’t owe you even One miracle, much less three.
    Those words from the dream suggest you’ll have a tough time finding miracles anywhere given your current non-belief system. Nonetheless, I hope you do, even though you currently feel the topic is ‘Ugh’.

  38. pb Avatar
    pb

    This is classic religious argument asking a non-believer to prove non-existence knowing that doing such is not possible. Can I prove that there is no Santa Claus? No.
    I didn’t ask for three. I asked for one. One miracle, Eileen.
    I still don’t understand your thing about dreams. The brain continues to function while the body is asleep. I didn’t realize there’s any question that dreams are completely natural.