Michael Moore lost the election

Michael Moore lost the election

: Michael Moore lost the election for John Kerry.

Michael Ledeen thinks the Guardian lost it by having a bunch of ferners try to influence our campaign.

You could argue that the French and Old Europe lost it for Kerry because he tied his star to them — now how dumb was that? — and we’re still pissed at them for deserting us.

You could argue that bin Laden lost it for Kerry by showing up again. Yes, you’d think that this only made Kerry’s point about letting OBL slip out of our fingers. But never underestimate our prideful anger.

But I say instead that Michael Moore lost it for Kerry. He lost it by starting the mudslinging over military service when he accused Bush of being a deserter; this opened the door for the Swiftie mudmen and cut short the ability to condemn them for it.

He lost it by making unfair attacks on Bush (when he could have made fair attacks), helping Bush to rally his fans around him.

But mainly, Moore lost the race for Kerry and the Democrats by turning them, by association, into a bunch of rabid seething fringie liberal loonies, all angry and extreme and too quick to forget what the real war is and who the real enemy is.

The right-wing is usually the side that is portrayed as fringie and rabid and extreme and, Lord knows, many of them are.

But Moore made the left seem just as extreme if not more so.

He demanded that we should all be as angry as he is. But what if we don’t want to be angry at our own side?

He demanded that we see conspiracies everywhere but where they exist: in the Islamofascist world.

He lowered the level of discourse to this: hyperbole, hype, lies by omission, and attack as a substitute for fact and discussion.

And that make it harder for Kerry to complain when the other side did likewise to him.

Bush did a better job of maintaining a thin wall of separation between him and the 527 nutjobs on his side. I don’t say that the wall was real, but the appearance of it was just real enough. Kerry did a bad job of separating himself from Moore; he didn’t try. So to many, Moore’s mud became Kerry’s mud.

There were thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of voters who were looking for an alternative to Bush, a reasonable, open, safe alternative. Moore made the Democrats look not like an alternative but the attackers.

And Moore — and Howard Dean and Air America and others — pushed Kerry and the Democrats into the position of being the anti-war party at a time when we are at war. That led to one flip-flop too many. Big mistake.

Moore was brilliant at creating a media frenzy. The media bought his hype and helped him make a fortune on his little flick. They made the mistake of thinking that each ticket bought to see that flick was worth many times more votes. No, the people who went to see F9/11 weren’t all buying Moore’s gospel. They were buying the hype. And that’s all Moore was selling: Hype. He wasn’t doing it for the good of the country. He was doing it for the good of Michael Moore.

But who wants to vote for the party of seethers and demeaners? Who wants to join the angry people and think that’s going to improve life? Who feels welcome in the company of disapprove snots? That is the party of Michael Moore.

The moral to the story: Don’t listen to Michael Moore. He led you astray, Democrats.

And Republicans: Just as I am tell Democrats not to believe that most of you are rabid religious nuts, you’d be unwise to think that most Democrats are rabid Michael Moore nuts; that would be just as wrong.

: I tried to warn you.

: See also Andrew Sullivan singing this hymn in harmony on Bill Maher, below.

: Roger L. Simon respectfully disagrees.

83 responses to “Michael Moore lost the election”

  1. Jim Treacher Avatar

    I don’t know that he lost it for Kerry singlehandedly, but it wasn’t for lack of trying.

  2. Dr. Fager Avatar
    Dr. Fager

    Mr. Moore apparently thinks he has a future as spokesman/advocate for the Democrats. Clueless as they are, it won’t be long before they figure out he is part of the problem rather than the solution. Henceforth he will be anathema to them.
    I’d say his future is not at all bright.

  3. Rob A. Avatar

    …you’d be unwise to think that most Demcrats are rabid Michael Moore nuts; that would be just as wrong.
    That’s probably true, but inviting Moore to sit with Jimmy Carter during the convention undercuts that a little bit.

  4. Jesse Avatar

    But sometimes it’s ok to be angry. And not everything was a lie by ommission.
    I’m glad he did what he did, I just wish he did it a little differently.

  5. Patrick Avatar

    So why didn’t the equally angry Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, and Swift Boat Vets lose it for Bush?

  6. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    “So why didn’t the equally angry Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, and Swift Boat Vets lose it for Bush?”
    It’s almost impossible anymore to tell when someone’s being ironic.

  7. Jon Lester Avatar

    Shouldn’t the DNC leadership have considered all of these things before they gave Michael Moore a seat next to Jimmy Carter at the convention?

  8. dr. cookie Avatar

    If the GOP would he seated Rush and O’Reilly next to GHW Bush, that would have turned off a lot of people. But they didn’t.
    The Dems sat ugly, divisive, vulgar Michael Moore next to a former president. What were they thinking?
    You might want to add Whoopi Goldberg to the list of people who lost it for Kerry. Remember the July fundraiser in NYC, when she got up on stage and ridiculed Bush with sexual puns on his name. From USA Today:
    “Waving a bottle of wine, Goldberg launched her double entendres in New York City last Thursday at a gala that raised $7.5 million for Kerry’s campaign and the Democratic National Committee. Other performers at the event called Bush a “cheap thug” and a liar.”
    It’s events like this that turned off the heartland. Moderates of all stripes stepped away from people who think it’s cool to engage in this kind of ugly rhetoric.

  9. Matthew Cromer Avatar
    Matthew Cromer

    Because half of congress didn’t take the day off to go buy the latest Ann Counter screed at the bookstore at a special sale and the Swift Vets didn’t get a seat of honor at the Republican Convention next to George Bush, Sr. Instead Bush constantly worked to marginalize that crowd, by talking about how much he honored Senator Kerry’s service in Vietnam.

  10. Matthew Cromer Avatar
    Matthew Cromer

    Sorry should have been George HW Bush, he’s not a “Sr.”.

  11. Reid Avatar

    It’s just possible that Greg Knauss is right, and the divide in this country is not between right and left, but between lunatics and non-lunatics. Between those who try to deal in policy and intellect, and those who deal in fear, emotion, and hype.
    I would argue there’s a third group. Those who profit from fear, emotion and hype. Moore and Coulter have both gotten rich off these woes, and have become caricatures in the process.

  12. szmike Avatar

    “So why didn’t the equally angry Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, and Swift Boat Vets lose it for Bush?”
    Mind if I answer your question with a question? (A few questions, actually.)
    Did the NYT print 88 favorable articles in 77 days about any of these people?
    Did Stolen Honor get a much hyped 30 minute ovation at the Cannes Film Festival?
    Did movie critics across the country tell us that regardless of political beliefs, we HAVE to see that latest O’Reilly Factor?
    Was Anne Coulter paid for speaking engagements at state universities across the countries at 30,000 bucks a show?
    Was Rush Limbaugh invited to sit next to Bush Sr at the RNC?
    They may be comparable to Michael Moore insofar as shrill hyperbole and one-sided propaganda, but as far as prominence in the past six months, it ain’t even close. They weren’t the face of their party, just voices amidst the throng.
    Michael Moore became the pied piper of the DNC. And he marched them over the cliff.

  13. Sheepdog Avatar

    Horsepuckey. Moore did not force Kerry and the democrats to take any stance. Kerry did so because he agrees. Had he disagreed, he could have said so. That’s what leaders do. Draw your own conclusions about Kerry’s leadership abilities. This is one huge excuse for why the Dems lost. They weren’t dragged left…. they are already there. The simple fact is, the Democrats do not represent the beliefs and aspirations of the American people. They need to deal with that or be faced with the prospect of permanent minority party status.

  14. Victoria Avatar

    Re: Michael Moore.
    You nailed it. I am a registered NYC Democrat who has always voted for my party in Presidential elections.
    But this year,all that extreme , hate-filled, redneck Bush-bashing rhetoric from Moore,Hollywood stars, and the liberal media elite only succeeded in pushing me away from my party and straight into the arms of George W Bush. I know at least 20 other NYC Dems who voted as I did this year, and for the same reason.
    In order to win me back in four years, the Democrat party has got to get over its affliction of Bush Derangement Syndrome and come up with a hopeful vision for the future.

  15. stan Avatar

    you fools.
    the anti-terrorist party did not go far enough.
    if you want to gain the support of flyover country you have to belittle, cajole and generally harass the other party. moore is a piker.
    that is the GOP strategy. all you have to do is state you are taking the high road and you are. remember, for some reason people are now able to auto-generate their own reality.

  16. Tom Grey Avatar

    Jeff, whenever you think military service, remember this fact.
    Kerry refused to sign Form 180.
    If what the Swifties said was true, any of it, then it’s not “mud” — it’s unpleasant truth. And Kerry can NOT call it mud if he doesn’t sign Form 180.
    Bush signed Form 180. Called AWOL, and worse, repeatedly. CBS ran FAKE documents about him — THAT was mud.
    Kerry lost the election by not signing Form 180. And prolly would have lost it in signing, when it shows how many Swiftie charges are true.

  17. Will Allen Avatar
    Will Allen

    When a party gives the first Leni Riefenstahl (and that is somewhat unfair to Riefenstahl, artistically speaking) of the 21st century a seat of honor at their convention, they are explicitly endorsing the work of the vile propagandist.

  18. get out of the house Avatar
    get out of the house

    Michael Moore? The Guardian? You guys spend too much time online talk to each other.
    Most Americans barely got a glimpse of Edwards and Cheaney, let alone hearing about the Guardian.
    For the normal TV audience.. all they saw every day is Bush and Kerry. Again. And again. Bush was better. Kerry worse. It’s that simple.

  19. Pixy Misa Avatar

    There’s another, critical difference between Michael Moore and Coulter/Limbaugh/O’Reilly that everyone seems to have missed.
    Moore didn’t just target President Bush or the Republicans with his venom, he targeted America. That’s what lost the election. You can slam the politicians all you like, but attack your own country and people get annoyed.

  20. Eric Berlin Avatar

    THANK YOU. I’ve been saying this myself for a while on my own little blog, and it’s nice to see that view shared by people I respect.

  21. David Avatar

    How could Kerry separate himself from Moore when he got a box set with Carter at the convention. Furthermore, Jimmy in his ultimate wisdom spewed the same trash as more. The Bush campaign basically ignored them (and Wisely so). After all, to paraphrase Napoleon: “When you enemy is doing something really stupid it would be impolite to in interrupt them”. Serious Democrates need to tell Moore and half of San Fran to shut the “f” up, get the fruitcakes off the front porch.

  22. Old Notary Avatar
    Old Notary

    You refer to the “Swiftie mudmen,” and I often see the Swifties referred to as “discredited” or as “liars.” Can you tell me of a source that shows them to be wrong? The most serious article I’ve found was the one in the WaPo which described their charges as largely UNproven, but did not claim that they had been DISproven. And I guess we all know now that when it came to Christmas in Cambodia, it wasn’t the Swifties who lied. Several veterans I know took them very seriously indeed.

  23. Kevin Avatar

    Kerry would have lost buy much a much larger margin if he hadn’t done so well in the debates and if Iraq hadn’t taken a turn for the worse. Kerry ran an awful campaign, it had nothing to do with Moore. Kerry was caught on tape flip-flopping on the 87 Billion, his “tough talk” on terrorism sounded tacked on rather than a primary concern, he was too slow responding to the devastating swift vet ads. This all would have happened even if Michael Moore never existed. That hypothesis also betrays another kind of a veiled blue state elitism too, at its root is a premise that people who would otherwise have voted for Kerry because he would make a better president than Bush were too stupid to resist their anger at Moore. I don’t think people are so silly.

  24. Horst Graben Avatar
    Horst Graben

    Get out of the House makes a good point: all of the stuff (Moore, swifties, Whoopie, etc.) in this comments thread is “Inside Baseball” that most voters do not focus on.
    Elections are not always won based only on what most voters are aware of. The reason Moore and the other sideshows influenced the outcome was their effect on the base of volunteers that work for the candidates and parties to inform people in their circles and get out the vote.

  25. Rick Avatar

    I don’t know what reality many people on this blog are tuning into, but it isn’t the present one. Let’s do a brief inventory of the spin coming from both sides:
    On the Right:
    X number of talk radio hosts, including
    Limbaugh
    Savage
    Coulter
    Ingram
    Medved
    O’Reilly
    etc.
    Fox “news”
    MSNBC
    527s and 501(c)(3)s, such as SBVT
    (Did I forget anyone?)
    On the Left:
    Air America (in 6-8 markets)
    Michael Moore
    In the middle:
    NYT
    CNN
    WaPo
    LAT
    NBC
    ABC
    CBS
    One can argue about how neutral the middle is. My view is that the middle is skewed to the Right (CBS notwithstanding), but reasonable people can differ.
    What seems to me beyond clear is that the stuff comming out from the Right is way more noxious than anything from the Left. The Left had to start a new radio network, just to get an outlet. Now, you may not like Al Franken’s jokes, but what you don’t hear is the kind of hate that Limbaugh, O’Rielly, Savage, Medved, Coulter spew out. These people seem to have no shame. To give one tiny example: Brit Hume called Kerry’s concession speech “a load of crap.” This happens every day on Fox and talk radio.
    Michael Moore made a movie. It includes spin. You can call it anything you like. Manipulation, proboganda, whatever. But one thing there isn’t is hate. There are some pretty uncomfortable scenes (for GWB). There is no hate in the movie.

  26. Mike NYC Avatar

    Many true left-wingers believe in Republican presidencies. They prefer the enemy they know to the slickness of “democrats” attempting to govern. Michael Moore is a wignut, but I’m glad he exists, and I’m glad he has a forum.
    The worst possibility for our country would be for only the “center” voices to be heard. I’d really hate for Jeff Jarvis to have an audience and not Michael Moore.
    I agree that those democrats seeking to govern should stay far away from Moore, but I still think Moore should keep ’em coming (along with my hope that he stays away from the conspiracies and sticks with known truths.)
    Also, your opening lines seem to be the blogosphere equivalent of NY Post headlines.

  27. cino Avatar

    Holy schmoley it’s like tuning into parallel-universe right-wing radio. One, despite this week’s talking points, “the Democrats” or “the DNC leadership” didn’t invite Moore to Carter’s box, Carter did.
    “Michael Moore’s satirical documentary on the Bush administration, Fahrenheit 9/11, may have broken box office records, but it was not enough to win the director an invitation to this week’s Democratic convention.”
    Two, if you think millions of new people voted in 2004 because of something Whoopi freakin’ has-been Goldberg said, you are on crack.
    Three, Jeff’s whole premise is Bush’s: that there’s only one war. Kerry (and Dean, and 99% of the Democrats) know there’s a war on the actual terrorists who attacked America and another war in Iraq that’s now a tar baby. We can argue about the necessity and the conduct of War 2 without being against War 1.
    Last, which is more rabid and loony: a lefty filmmaker who goes overboard in his opposition to a president and his pals, or the president’s right-wing pals who want to completely restructure the country into a fundie paradise? How many constitutional amendments does Michael Moore want?

  28. cino Avatar

    Holy schmoley it’s like tuning into parallel-universe right-wing radio. One, despite this week’s talking points, “the Democrats” or “the DNC leadership” didn’t invite Moore to Carter’s box, Carter did.
    “Michael Moore’s satirical documentary on the Bush administration, Fahrenheit 9/11, may have broken box office records, but it was not enough to win the director an invitation to this week’s Democratic convention.”
    Two, if you think millions of new people voted in 2004 because of something Whoopi freakin’ has-been Goldberg said, you are on crack.
    Three, Jeff’s whole premise is Bush’s: that there’s only one war. Kerry (and Dean, and 99% of the Democrats) know there’s a war on the actual terrorists who attacked America and another war in Iraq that’s now a tar baby. We can argue about the necessity and the conduct of War 2 without being against War 1.
    Last, which is more rabid and loony: a lefty filmmaker who goes overboard in his opposition to a president and his pals, or the president’s right-wing pals who want to completely restructure the country into a fundie paradise? How many constitutional amendments does Michael Moore want?

  29. Oliver Avatar

    Yes, next time we’ll just make shit up about the Republican candidate. Its an obviously winning strategy. That, and bashing gays.

  30. Rick Avatar

    Cino: Thanks for that post.
    The conflation of the war on terrorism with the war in Iraq is an issue that clearly seperates the two camps. Unfortunately, it seems as if it is going to take many more dead Iraqis and Americans before the Right gets it that democracy doesn’t flow from the barrel of a gun.
    Note: I forgot to include MoveOn (527) under the Left in previous post. Still no hate.

  31. pianoman Avatar

    The GOP has been successful marginalizing their lunatics. The Democrats have not, and need to rectify this problem as soon as possible.
    Comparing Coulter to Moore is interesting. How many sinister conspiracy theories does Coulter rely on in order to make book sales?

  32. docob Avatar

    Oliver, “making shit up about the Republican candidate” is basically what Michael Moore DID. He is welcome to do more of it, and further reveal both himself and the Democratic party (who not only refused to distance themselves from Moore but actively embraced him at their convention) for what they have become.

  33. david Avatar

    When is someone on the left going to take an honest look at what actually caused Kerry’s downfall: the Swiftboats attacks were dead on! Kerry is a liar and fraud and until the Dems stop running around and questioning morals (worse yet, blaming the electorate for being idiots), Moorisms, and bin Laden’s timing, and realize they nominated the worst politician to ever run on a National ticket, they just won’t heal. Maybe we should be talking about 2012.

  34. docob Avatar

    Oh, and yeah, Rick … CBS, ABC and NYT are all in the “middle”. Jebus, I cannot believe anyone can make that argument with a straight face, particularly after raTHergate. That’s okay, tho. Just keep thinking that way, and continue to move toward the margin.

  35. Wagner Avatar

    The idea that Moore threw the election to Bush is somewhat plausible, but is there any evidence at all to back it up? Besides the anecdotal kind? Any exit poll that tries to gague, this for example? Seriously, I’d love to see it.

  36. david Avatar

    Oliver, Republicans didn’t need to make shit up about Kerry, Kerry did that for them (Cambodia, magic hat!) But even worse, the stuff he actually did was what REALLY got him (1971 testimony and Paris/Vietcong). I’m a Democrat, voted Bush, will vote Republican until MY party gets rid of the dishonesty and idiocy of certain factions, and nominates an actual statesman.

  37. carsonfire Avatar

    I think to blame Moore is to give Moore more credit than he deserves. He was a part of the quilt, in being toasted openly by the Democratic party. Nobody had to repudiate him; but Ann Coulter wasn’t being given a seat of honor anywhere by the Republican party. The best Coulter could do was get a deal with USAToday, and they had a cow the second they saw her first column.
    Some Democrats, I’ve read elsewhere, are blaming Hollywood.
    I think it would be far more constructive for the Democrats not to point fingers and to instead do some soul searching. Kerry never really ever stood for anything more than “Bush is a f*ckup”, and, by extension, neither did the party.
    What the left really wanted this time around was to return to power, but that’s about all that was ever really effectively communicated. And so Kerry got out the “desperately wants to be back in power” vote.

  38. Romeo Avatar

    Rick,
    The fact that you would even group NYT, LaT and WaPo in the middle discredits your arguement.
    And Michael Moore’s movie contained what you call “spin.” I think most people would call it factual falsehoods. Complete distortions. Maybe you should read this.
    http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

  39. Rick Avatar

    Pianoman:
    What on earth would cause you to say that “the right had marginalized their lunatics”?
    Coulter is running around saying things like: “Kerry will improve the economy in the emergency services and body bag industry.”
    Savage said that Clinton would fully recover because “hell was full”.
    Limbaugh comparing the abuses at Abu Ghraib to “animal house” hazing pranks.
    Please.

  40. Rick Avatar

    Pianoman:
    What on earth would cause you to say that “the right had marginalized their lunatics”?
    Coulter is running around saying things like: “Kerry will improve the economy in the emergency services and body bag industry.”
    Savage said that Clinton would fully recover because “hell was full”.
    Limbaugh comparing the abuses at Abu Ghraib to “animal house” hazing pranks.
    Please.

  41. RIck Avatar

    If Bush said: “The world is flat”,
    Fox would say “The world is flat! The world is flat!”
    The NYT, WaP and LAT would say: “Shape of world questioned by Bush administration. Views differ.”
    How more in the middle can you be?

  42. daudder Avatar

    So, an American citizen, expressing his right to free speech, cost the election for John Kerry. What a country.
    How about this…how about holding one responsible for their efforts and actions and not blaming others.
    Let’s see what John Kerry and John Edwards say. I voted fore them because they were willing to take responsibilty…and I doubt they wiull blame ANYONE but themselves for the election

  43. carsonfire Avatar

    Rick, a better example of how it works would be:
    Bush administration says “we’re adjusting to the situation.”
    Fox News says “the Bush administration says that they’re adjusting to the situation”, followed by a debate between an even number of Republicans and Democrats.
    The networks say “the Bush administration is in chaos tonight as they admit that their original plan was a failure” followed by no discussion whatsoever.

  44. Rick Avatar

    Carsonfire:
    That’s a good one. Just exactly who are these democrates that appear on Fox? I’d like some names, please.

  45. carsonfire Avatar

    There is some evidence coming out to support the idea that the election that was “Kerry’s to lose” was in fact lost by him, and not by anybody else. As many of us suspected, even apart from the political questions, he simply could not be trusted to be in charge of anything.
    Evan Thomas of Newsweek transcribed on the Today Show:
    Mr. THOMAS: The Kerry campaign was even worse run than you think. Kerry was a bad manager. He could never make up his mind. He would dither and he’d second-guess every decision. They had to take away his cell phone twice, because every time they made a decision he’d get on his cell phone and start calling a hundred of his closest friends.
    …
    LAUER: What would be the biggest surprise? You had great access. The average American, what would they be most surprised about that goes on inside campaigns at this level of politics?
    Mr. THOMAS: I think the kind of level of chaos and that they don’t–it’s not that–well, the Bush campaign was pretty organized, but I think the disorganization of the Kerry campaign is going to be shocking.
    Patterico quotes it from NEXIS.

  46. Lost Soul Avatar
    Lost Soul

    Cino says it best…
    Air America is a bunch of amateurs when it comes to mudslinging.
    A year ago, before the fun really started, I made a trip across the heartland by car. If you get away from the major cities, the radio is wall to wall hatespeak. Stuff that would make Little Mikie Moore and the Swifties hange their heads in shame.
    There are media venues that many in the mainstream are totally unaware of. None of them are big in themselves, but they are organized and on the air everyday.

  47. John Avatar

    Turn back the clock to before the release of F9/11 when the Democrats really didn’t have a leg to stand on.
    They latched on to MM because they were desperate.
    They chose to embrace MM, against the interests of their own country, in a gamble to regain the presidency and they lost.
    During the campaign, the rise in the insurgency in Iraq was blamed on the President for lacking some mystical entity, generally refered to as a “better plan”.
    I believe that someone should study the correlation between the rise in the insurgency in Iraq and the Moorification of the election campaign.
    My gut feeling is that the insurgency rose in conjunction with the allout propaganda campaign against the President.
    The Democrats should look soberly at their current concept of what the role of the party in opposition should be, in view of our long term national security goals.
    In my view, the belief that you can somehow be in support our troops who are under the gun, and act indirectly in the interests of those who would kill them, has proved a non-seller among the electorate.
    Perhaps those who supplied George W. Bush with his victory margin are just non-intellectual enough to have seen this as well.

  48. carsonfire Avatar

    Rick: There’s a constant stream of Democrats coming onto Fox News for debates, and the network employs a great number of liberals and conservatives. I could name some, but I’ve seen this discussion online too many times before: every liberal named will be christened “not liberal enough” or somehow a “fake liberal”. If Fox hire Noam Chomsky, Dennis Kucinich, and Michael Moore, all three of them would suddenly have their liberal credentials called into question. For instance, Juan Williams, an important panelist on Britt Hume’s news show, is unquestionably liberal; but he is “damaged goods” because he has taken a few independent stands and — worse! — appears regularly on Fox.
    At the same time, any middle-of-the-roaders and liberal-leaning conservatives on Fox are excoriated as the worst right-wing extremists. For instance, the enigmatic Eddie Munster lookalike, Shepherd Smith, or the loudmouth O’Reilly. Protests that Bill O’Reilly is not a solid right-winger are always greeted with snorts of derision from the left, but the fact remains that he’s an oddball who swings all over the place. A right-winger does *not* crusade against SUVs the way O’Reilly does, but it is entirely possible for an old-timer liberal to get worked up about dirty lyrics in rap songs.
    Insomuch as we know that an effort is made to balance debaters with Republicans and Democrats, and that anchors at least don’t try to pretend that they’re something that they’re not, Fox News achieves the “transparency” that commentators like JJ call for, but is rarely credited for having done so.

  49. Eileen Avatar

    For those who believe there is NO fusion between the war on terror and the war in Iraq, tell that to these Saudi clerics, who issued their latest fatwa yesterday:
    http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041106090509990002&_mpc=news%2e10%2e3&cid=774
    Further, to suggest that Moore was only at the convention at Carter’s behest, and without the DNC’s (at the very least) tacit approval is hooey. Would anyone be allowed to take such a seat of prominence without it?
    OBL recently parroted Moore, so apparently his sphere of influence extends well beyond whatever impact he may have had in our election.

  50. Jeffersonian Avatar
    Jeffersonian

    People don’t agree with Moore because he sits with Democratic grandees at their convention. He sits with grandees because they agree with him.
    Moore isn’t the disease, he’s the symptom.
    Moore gave focus to and personified the lunatic fringe in the Democratic Party, but it wouldn’t disappear if he did. The problem is that the Democrats have never performed the necessary political hygiene that the Republicans and conservatives have, preferring to nurse grudges and nurture fringe players. Now their strategy has come back to haunt them in the biggest of ways.
    If they want to regain credibility with folks in Red America, they need to jettison the flakes. Period.

  51. Rick Avatar

    Carsonfire:
    I’ll give you the list. Go here to see:
    http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/sources.html
    BTW: I’m sure your aware of the study that showed that people who watch Fox actually know less about the facts than people who watch other sources of news. Find it here:
    http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf
    Here’s a sample:
    A study by the Program on International Policy Attitudes, sponsored by the Ford, Carnegie, and Tides foundations, reports that viewers of FOX News were more likely to hold misconceptions than viewers of any other network. The study lists three beliefs, which it labels “misperceptions,” that FOX viewers are more likely to hold:
    * That evidence of a link between al-Qaeda and Iraq had been found;
    *That weapons of mass destruction had been discovered in Iraq; and
    *That the U.S. had received wide international support in its decision to go to war.
    Eighty percent of FOX News viewers held at least one of these three beliefs, more than any other radio or television news source. This trend persists even after adjusting for viewership and political preference. The report also states that the viewers who watched FOX more often tended to have more of these beliefs.

  52. Kat Avatar

    Ford, Carnegie, and Teresa’s Tides Foundation are more likely to hold Leftist misconceptions than viewers of any other organizations. How gullible are you?
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=13957
    Bush made the largest gains with people who have some sort of post-graduate degree.

  53. MnZ Avatar

    Rick,
    I am sure that if you polled NPR or New York Times fans, you would find that they have many misconceptions. Including:
    *Other than the US, all developed countries have a single payer medicine. (False: Only Canada does.)
    *Citizens from all major countries preferred Kerry to Bush. (False: Indians and Chinese were indifferent.)
    I could think of several others if you gave me the time.

  54. Rick Avatar

    Dear Kat and MnZ:
    Do you guys realize that we are talking about the justifications for WAR, not a trivia contest? People are dying now, Americans and Iraqis, because the right-wing media in this country echoed his propaganda without critical analysis or true alternative opinion.

  55. John Avatar

    Rick,
    True alternative option?
    Why not just say it, appeasement.
    The major flaw with an appeasement strategy is that the threat is allowed to remain in place.
    Appeasement based solutions alway remain subject to renegotiation at the whim of the those who threaten.
    You may be willing to put your butt on the line under these terms, but please don’t expect me to be.

  56. Kat Avatar

    I’m talking about the justifications for fighting against a worldwide jihad which has been in the works for years. Thousands have died and you don’t seem to have an alternative plan to stop the barbaric jihadis.
    Saddam Hussein’ was responsible for the deaths of 1.26 million Iraqis and other Arabs, and for the creation of 4.54 million refugees because the leftwing media was willing to look the other way, like they do with all muslamic terror. Americans lost lives to put the Nazis out of business. Islamism is a bastard child of naziism.

  57. david Avatar

    Jeez Rick, expand your knowledge: The reason that Fox viewers are more likely to believe those three points is because they are true and the MSM refuses to report the truth to the public!! Once again slowly:
    1. Links between al-Qaeda and Iraq were clearly shown in the Dufleur report.
    2. 17 Sarin Gas shells were discovered by the Polish military in June, these were of binary manufacture post-1995. The MSM immediately changed their cry to the “no stockpiles” meme.
    3. 30 nations supported the Iraq action, so what if France, Germany and Russia didn’t, they were shown to be on the take!
    Can you guys get over your problem and start looking in the Democratic party for an honest statesman?? 2008 will be here quicker than you think.

  58. Hope Avatar

    A note on Michael Moore. Like hundreds of others at the moment I am putting in many hours each day trying to make a go of running a blog (in my case a humor column). We have joined Blogexplosion http://www.blogexplosion.com/ in the hope of generating traffic to our own blogs by spending hours visiting those of others.
    I have enjoyed this experience and there seems to be a refreshing, endearing frankness about our self-interest in the success of the enterprise. A few weeks ago, I came across Andrew Sullivan’s and Michael Moore’s blogs while surfing via BE. I haven’t seen their blogs since on BE. My theory is that they realized that this generated only ill well against them, given that both are already prominent on the media scene and that they obviously had interns or paid employees doing the surfing that the rest of us are doing diligently and conscientiously for ourselves.
    I would be interested to read your take on BE.
    Moore was preaching to the upper middle class tenured radical crowd and college students (most college-age people aren’t in college and so don’t know of Moore) who were already Kerryites. Soros probably did as much damage to Kerry’s cause, given the anti-Semitic feelings aroused by heavily accented multimillionaires who launch one-man wars against average-guy seeming presidents. Then there was the discomfort engendered among married (working and stay at home both) women appalled by the too-far-too-fast-law-flouting-bother-with-the-ballot box same-sex marriage forces. Then there was simply the fact that Kerry was less appealing to look at with his hangdog face than adequately handsome Bush. There was also Kerry’s patrician manner much of the time (the average person gets creamed in debates and doesn’t like people who do well in them) and his heavily accented wife. Then there was the fact that most reporters and Democratic pollsters regard average white Christian churchgoers as boobs and don’t associate with them at all and so forth. I am not endorsing these feelings, just analyzing them…at great length.
    Hope
    http://humorhangout.blogspot.com/

  59. carsonfire Avatar

    Rick: You have no expended a great deal of hot air to convince us of what we already know, which is that Fox News is more fair to conservatives. This in no way proves your converse assertion that the liberally-biased networks are “in the middle”.
    You asked for one name, and as expected, replied with links proving that the quality and number of liberals *employed* by Fox isn’t fair. But you miss the point that these commentators invite liberals and Democrats on air as a matter of practice to debate the news; this is a far cry from the networks that present a liberally-skewed version of events and only get around to allowing a few conservative talking heads to challenge their assertions on Sunday morning, and usually outnumbered conservatives at that.
    For instance… I haven’t had cable for a long while, and so I have to rely on other news outlets… but when I could watch Fox, I would turn on Hannity and Colmes, and find the two hosts shepherding a debate featuring a Republcan and a Democrat… Charles Rangel, for instance, used to make that show a lot. Democrats who want to get their voices heard go on the shows that have ratings.
    So while I think that Fox is for the most part fair, you’re certainly welcome to put it in the “right” side of your column. But the rest of your list is nonsensical, as it pretends that a vast array of leftist talking heads don’t even exist, and that the biggest forces in leftist media are “in the middle”.
    In fact, your first “flat earth” example made me laugh, because it’s so ineptly naive… NYT would never print a headline like “some differ” if a Republican made such an outrageous statement. They are rarely so charitable when Republicans make reasonable statements on issues that should be debatable.
    I mean, we haven’t even touched on other silly parts of your list… as provably silly as a “flat earth” theory, like listing 527s only under “the right”, even though Democratic 527s outspent Republican 527s through most of the campaign. I’m sure you’ve heard of MoveOn.org — it’s the most notorious and visible of all of the 527s. And, er, I think you’ll find that they are not a Republican organization. And it has been left, glaringly, off of your list altogether.

  60. Brad Avatar

    Jeff,
    Sorry…have to disagree. I think it is simplistic, blaming, and plain wrong to hang the loss on any single person. First, don’t give Mr. Moore more credit than he deserves. Second, let’s be real and not think that one individual lost the election. Third, if we’re going to point fingers, let’s point it at the Democratic Party. We as a party didn’t do a good enough job selling our product. Plain and simple.

  61. Ric Locke Avatar
    Ric Locke

    As a genuine gap-toothed redneck and red-stater, let me make one defense of Michael Moore against Jeff’s charges.
    Michael Moore is not responsible for the “Bush AWOL” story. That honor belongs to Molly Ivins and the “keep Austin weird” cabal of Texas Democrats, who floated the meme during Ann Richards’ defense of the office of Governor of Texas against Bush in 1994. (That race has the honor of being the last time I ever voted for a Democrat, and if things go on as they are it may hold that record for a long time.) I don’t recall Moore being even a glint in anyone’s eye at that time.
    You will have to excuse me from elaborating on why the Democrats and the MSM held onto the story for so long; I don’t care to insult our host.
    Regards,
    Ric Locke

  62. Jeff Avatar

    I know you will hate this but Rush Limbaugh made the same argument about 2 months ago. He said MM was losing it for the democrats and that all the conservatives needed to do was sit back and let him do their work for them. As strange as it sounds he has been more accurate while being more vilifiled than any other radio/tv talk show.

  63. Tim Avatar

    I generally think Jarvis is correct, in that swing and marginal voters went for Bush because they realized Kerry and his voters, exemplified by Moore, hated Bush more than they hated the terrorists and other enemies of America.
    That said, Jarvis should turn his analysis on himself, as his jihad against the FCC regarding Howard Stern, of all people, hardly warranted anything better than an ancillary sense of what else, on the extreme margins, was at stake in this election.
    Howard Stern? No wonder you Democrats lose. You elevate the marginal to the primary, and reduce the primary to the marginal. Most Americans can tell the difference. Get real, if you want to win.
    Howard Stern. Unbelievable.

  64. Rick Avatar

    David:
    The Duelfer report concerned WMD (of which it found none). Someone (maybe Fox news) told you it showed a link btw Iraq and al-Qaeda. But, just because someone told you, doesn’t make it true.

  65. Rick Avatar

    Carsonfire:
    Are we talking about the same NYT that employs Judith Miller? The same Judith Miller that shilled for Ahmend Chalabi for months, writing story after story that supported the administration’s view that there were WMD, that we would be greated as liberators, and that oil proceeds would cover the bill (all of which subsequently turned out to be false)? That NYT?

  66. Rick Avatar

    Carsonfire:
    For the record, I did add MoveOn in a subsequent post.

  67. Rick Avatar

    Dear John:
    Y’all keep coming back with this appeasement angle, as if any suggestion of not just going in and kicking there assess is weak and sissy. Well, consider where we’d be today if the following things had happened:
    1) The inspectors had been allowed to do their job and established that there were no WMD (as was the case).
    2) If SH had not permitted the inspections to continue, we’d waited to make the case to the rest of the world that it was worth the trouble to squash such a two-bit dictator.
    3) We had actually followed-through in Afghanistan and found OBL and set up a stable gov’t. (Now it is a mess over there– barely contained chaos.)
    If these things had happened, we’d have over 1,000 US soldiers (and countless Iraqis) still alive, we’d be safer with OBL in jail, Afghanistan would no longer be a haven for terrorists (which it will soon revert to as soon as we’re gone), and there would already be an international force in Iraq.
    Better, no?

  68. Dr. Fager Avatar
    Dr. Fager

    Rick
    The assertion that the NYT, WaPo, CBS, NBC, ABC & LAT are middle of the road is preposterous. In the long run, the most significant fact about this election will be the loss of credibility and consequent loss of importance by the MSM.
    They’re presiding over their own demise and are too stupid and arrogant to even see it.
    As mentioned elsewhere, journalism is not a profession. Anyone can do it and blogs (at least some of them) prove it.

  69. John Avatar

    Rick,
    First of all, weak and sissy are your terms, not mine.
    My objections to the appeasement strategy are based on careful reasoning, not name calling.
    Second, the existence of WMD was not the determining factor in the decision to liberate Iraq. As you will see as time goes on, there were a multitude of reasons that supported the removal of SH.
    In addition, the inspections were part of the very same U.N. dog & pony show that allowed Saddam to continue to flaunt the terms of previous U.N. resolutions and the aggreements he entered into after he had been driven from Kuwait.
    You refer to SH as a two-bit dictator. This characterization is laughable, because, as you know, he retained exclusive control of almost half of the world’s known oil reserves.
    The U.N. program, Oil for Food, had degenerated into something that only those blinded by ideology or kickbacks would not consider a travesty.
    The “we let OBL get away” Dem Meme is weak, and displays their, and presumably your ignorance of the threat posed by Al Qaeda and related groups. Al Qaeda is generally thought of as a decentralized management structure by design, and will continue to function as long as individual cells continue to obtain funding and asylum.
    While the capture of OBL would provide symbolic closure to those of us who continue to feel the pain of 9/11, it will have little to do with reducing the overall threat posed by Al Qaeda, or other related Islamist terrorist organizations.
    It’s comforting to know that liberal’s heart’s bleed for the dead and wounded, but let us not forget that those who are paying the real price in blood and sacrifice know the true cost of Iraqi, and ultimately our, freedom, and are willingly risking their lives in it’s pursuit.

  70. carsonfire Avatar

    Rick: I missed your correction, but it’s a weak correction, even if it were more visible. MoveOn.org wasn’t just the 527 on the left, it was the biggest; your correction didn’t even take the others into account. You still leave the impression that 527s were primarily a Republican beast.
    And as for Judith Miller, your argument becomes even more uneven by citing *one* reporter at the NYT who is *not* known for being a conservative (seen her sitting in a place of honor at the Republican national convention, by any chance?), but for screwing around with the facts… all that does is put her in the same league as Jason Blayr. You could cite the token conservative columnists, Brooks and Safire, but even the Times’ public editor, Okrent, admits that the paper is skewed left for the very reason that it serves a city that skews left. Repeat: the Times *says* it leans left.
    At the same time you try to push one Miller as proof that the NYT isn’t what the NYT actually admits to being, you dismiss dozens of Democrats employed by, and the vaster panoply of Democrats invited to speak on Fox News.
    Again, it’s fine to call Fox News right-leaning, but you have to use the same yardstick in measuring other media. If the fact that there are more on the right than on the left in the pool at Fox is in itself proof that Fox is biased to the right, then it follows that surveys showing that the majority of reporters across the country are on the left should prove that the news media, overall, is biased to the left.
    This is actually what most of us on the right claim. But I’m sure you don’t want the same standard applied in both cases; your list betrays your own attempts at creating a fantasy through omission. Bringing this back to JJ’s original topic, this may be where Michael Moore has really served the Democratic party badly: your cause is just, so leaving out facts in order to create a false reality isn’t really “lying”, it’s the creation of a hyper-truth. It’s true because we all believe it to be, and facts shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way of the truth.
    Republicans are as guilty as any humans of occasionally mangling facts and coming up with self-deceptive theories; but I think they’re more used to being called liars, so serious Republicans try to be more careful, because they know that this kind of thing hurts their credibility in the long run. For the good of the Democratic party, it has to kick this Michael Moore habit. These kinds of obvious distortions and omissions have become less an occasional human failing and more of an obsessive habit with Democratic troops and media.

  71. Andy Freeman Avatar
    Andy Freeman

    > The Duelfer report concerned WMD (of which it found none).
    Except it did. Remember the Sarin artillery shells?
    The report also described how Iraq had programs so they could start WMD production the day that the sanctions were lifted, if not sooner. (Our “allies” were happily helping Hussein get around the sanctions.)

  72. Del Avatar

    Michael Moore can’t be that disappointed with the election. F 9/11 has grossed $120m and a second Bush term guarantees him a paying audience for another four years. Not a bad consolation prize.

  73. Maureen Lynch Avatar
    Maureen Lynch

    I posted something very similar on Michelle’s blog. I said that many Democrats contributed to the most expensive Oscar campaign in history. There’s nothing wrong with Moore & every other celebrity in Hollywood expressing their ignorance in public. The mistake was for the Democrats letting them use their self-promoting arrogance to become the face of the campaign. I couldn’t even think of a reply when one of my devout Democrat neighbors said, very earnestly, that I should watch “Day After Tomorrow” because Al Gore had said it was a good description of what’s happening with the environment. Read the devotees on Daily Kos & how many passed copies of “Farenheit” to their friends, thinking it would influence them. Michael with his self-adulation campus tour masquerading as “information.”
    I’m a moderate Republican & in no way buy hook-line-&-sinker into Bush’s policies. My mother is a Floridian who voted for Gore, but for Bush this time. As I’ve said often, don’t tell me Bush sucks. I know Bush sucks. Tell me what the Democrats would do differently. I don’t want to hear about a “plan”–I want to hear the plan. For both of us, terrorism tipped the balance. We know what Bush is doing, & yes, there are flaws–but we never heard anything concrete from Kerry. All we heard was Moore & other celebrities openly undercutting our troops, gloating in Americans’ deaths, saying we “deserved” to be attacked (read “Rolling Stone,” any issue), even openly wishing for troops’ deaths. For someone like my mother, whose uncle gave up his US citizenship to fly with the RAF in WWII because he thought we should be siding with Britain against evil sooner than we did, that kind of think doesn’t play well. The DNC, & Kerry, would have been well-advised to gently separate themselves from the loony message. Jeff–most of us understand that the loonies don’t define the left any more than they do the right. It’s just that we’d like to see the DNC make a bit more of an effort to separate themselves. And for the record: I’d like to see the RNC make more of an effort to separate THEMSELVES from some of the right-wing loonies (altho I think Buchanan has pretty effectively separated himself from Republicans anyway). Most of us moderates don’t blindly vote the party, we vote the issue. Unfortunately, Kerry didn’t really have an issue–other than “I served in Vietnam for 3 months–so he let Moore & others become the issue. Well, my cousin served in Vietnam for 24 months, only to be called a murderer by Mr. Kerry & others. That’s not Swiftboat propoganda; that’s reality. (Another reality being that we were told for 8 years the military service of a draft dodger didn’t count, so it’s a bit hypocritical to all of a sudden say that military service DOES count. Hey, my cousin, & my brother who served in Gulf I, each had more military service than Kerry, Bush, Gore, Clinton, Edwards, & McAuliffe combined. Maybe they should be President?)
    There are a ton of issues where the Republicans are very vulnerable. I’d love to see the Democrats seize the initiative & actually come up with some plans. Providing affordable daycare for working parents; a flat tax (risky, but what do they have to lose at this point?); REALISTIC ways to reduce our dependance on the corrupt countries providing oil (ironically, shouldn’t the Democrats be welcoming high gas prices as a way to discourage people from driving the insane gas-guzzlers they do now, instead of complaining that prices are too high?); REALISTICALLY addressing the sinkholes that inner-city schools are, rather than remaining the prisoner of the NEA & refusing to allow minority parents the ability to send their kids to Sidwell Friends just like Chelsea by giving them vouchers or something; recognizing that corporations aren’t the enemy but the entities that provide the jobs the DNC keeps claiming Bush lost & being just a tad less hostile; how about a plan encouraging (or requiring) companies that are setting up schools in India to train people in certain skills to outsource, or bringing in workers on foreign visas, to set up training programs in inner-city schools to train Americans in those skills; addressing the shocking lag the US has behind so many other countries in match & science students; etc. There are so many areas to be proactive. The thing to watch is whether they’re going to continue to allow Moore & others to hijack the agenda to serve their own egos, or whether they’ll be properly relegated to what they do best–concerts to fundraise.

  74. Ed Rusch Avatar

    He lost it by starting the mudslinging over military service when he accused Bush of being a deserter; this opened the door for the Swiftie mudmen.
    What naievete. The Swifties’ attacks were going to happen no matter what.

  75. Eric Avatar

    Bullshit. The right has a cadre of right-wing hate mongers many times larger than anything the left can scavange. Think Fox News, Think Rush Limbaugh, Think Ann Coulter, Think Zell Miller, Think Countless AM Radio hate-nerds.
    Dude, you’re so off base, it’s a joke.

  76. MikeL Avatar

    Having had to hold my nose to vote for a pro-war candidate (Kerry), I’m kind of confused that you think Kerry didnt do better than he did because he became an anti-war candidate. For plenty of my conservative friends, they would have voted for Kerry on the war issue if Kerry had promised to bring the troops home tomorrow. Because they didnt have a real choice on this issue, they made up their minds on who to vote for for other reasons.

  77. Kirk Jepsen Avatar

    So this whole election defeat is just one big PR failure that we can blame on Michael Moore? I wonder, is Mr. Moore also responsible for the Democrats’ lack of a strategy in Southern and rural states?

  78. carsonfire Avatar

    Eric: Bullshit. The right has a cadre of right-wing hate mongers many times larger than anything the left can scavange. Think Fox News, Think Rush Limbaugh, Think Ann Coulter, Think Zell Miller, Think Countless AM Radio hate-nerds.
    Um… who you talking to, Eric? You are absolutely right, though… I doubt if the left could scavenge *any* right-wing hate mongers. Instead, think Rather, think LIES LIES LIES! O’Donnell, think Franken, think Dowd, think Moore, think Kos, think Rather, think Hightower, think Ivans, think Schutze, think Bob Herbert, think Krugman, think Matthews, think Conansen, think Salon.com, think Ted Rall, think “Boondocks”, think Carter, think Hunter S Thompson, think Jane Smiley, think Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins, think the Boss, think Streisand, think Al HE BETRAYED US Gore, think Jon Stewart, think Atrios, think George Carlin, think Clinton, think van Hoovel, think Estrich, think Carville, think Eleanor Clift, think Begala, think Rolling Stone Magazine, think whoever that was who said “vote or die”, and, yes, think “fake bomb story” NYT and “forged memos” CBS… and these are just names off of the top of my head, no Googling or memory refreshing needed. And I’m a pretty forgetful guy.
    This really is a stupid, stupid game to try playing. The only way you win is by defining strong voices on the right as “hate” and strong voices on the left as “truth”. And that’s not an argument: that’s pathetic propaganda that stinks to high heaven.

  79. carsonfire Avatar

    Oops, I see I mentioned Rather twice. Replace one with “think Norman Mailer, think Tom Tomorrow, think Katie Couric…” The list is endless.

  80. Maureen Avatar

    Carson–Bingo! For today’s sad meme, see Babs Streisand’s latest gems (we’re “witches” now, apparently), along with the news that Bush is responsible for “Alfie” being a box-office bomb. As opposed to, oh, the fact that most of us really aren’t interested in going to see a film just because Jude Law is in it, or that it’s a tired remake of a 60s film that wasn’t that great to begin with. Nope, it’s all the fault of Bush & us right-wing extremist haters.

  81. Steve Rhodes Avatar

    I was wondering when you were going to include Tom Tomorrow (Dan Perkins).
    Actually, neither the DNC or Jimmy Carter invited Moore to sit in their box. He ended up there by chance. Dan tell the story (it is linked from my name).
    There are many reasons Kerry lost, but if you’re going to blame anyone, blame Kerry.
    If anything, Moore (who is not a Democrat) helped Kerry by motivating people to vote and keeping more people from splitting off for Nader (Nader’s final votes didn’t make the difference anywhere, but there were some close calls).
    And I’m certainly not uncritical of Moore.

  82. JT Avatar

    What a complete load of crap! Kerry lost this election because he wasn’t strong enough to fight against the Republican message, which was much more developed and out there to the public. Not to mention his own complete lack of message outside of ABB. If Moore lost the election for Kerry, then homophobes, anti-choice nuts, Coulter wannabes, and Limbaugh freaks won it for Bush. What’s better? Last time I checked we live in a free country. All Americans — rich or poor, famous our not — have the constitutional right to speak out for what they believe in. If they don’t then they are nothing more than un-American, unpatriotic cowards. Agree or disagree with Moore (and I don’t like him), at least he has the courage to stand up for what he believes in. If you voted against Kerry simply because of Moore’s “documentary,” then you’re loser. What’s more, let’s remember that if conservative Walt Disney had not refused to show the film and conservative wing-nut groups had not led a campaign to censor the film, no one would have cared. We can thank conservatives for making Moore and his film successful; further, no one was forced to see the film. I swear, Jarvis! I’m a sporadic visitor to your site, but on those rare occasions when I do visit the site, you have some stupid-ass comment like this posted. If you voted against John Kerry because you saw Michael Moore

  83. Donna Avatar

    I am under the impression that nobody actually lost the election for Kerry at all. The computors set up under your governments administration stole the election and you all let it happen.
    Is it so easy to say how bad the Muslims or the Iraqui’s are and not bother to look at the attrocities you are always allowing your government to do, even to yourselves? (But they are only trying to protect us from all the bad people). Easy to blame Mr Moore.