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He typed, she typed

30 comments on He typed, she typed

He typed, she typed

: Andrew Sullivan’s letter of the day (the top one) sums it up quite nicely.

From the right-wing blogs, I learned that the memo font matches MS Times-Roman, and nothing else. From the left-wings blogs, I learned that the memo font matches IBM Press-Roman, and nothing else.

From the right-wing blogs, I learned that small horizontal variation in spacing is proof of “kerning” and therefore computer generation. From the left-wing blogs, I learned that small vertical variation in alignment is proof of mechanical action and therefore typewriter creation.

I learned that the right-wing facts are certainly true, as noted by Washington Post experts, and the left-wing facts are certainly true, as established by the Boston Globe.

And so on, and so on…..

30 responses to “He typed, she typed”

  1. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Perfect summation of this line of silliness.

  2. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    that sums it up? hardly. Maybe if you are holding onto the belief that these memos are authentic. Left wing blogs are playing catch up and drawing at straws to prove the memos are real. All other blogs and now other big media sources have brought out numerous inconsistencies and experts, far more than the author of this letter wants to address, to show that these memos are forgeries.
    Note: the Boston Globe hasn’t established any fact in this whole debacle, they have only misquoted and misrepresented an expert who stated that the documents are most likely forgeries.
    I know my beef is with the guy who wrote this, I just don’t understand why you would post it. I would think you would be trumpeting the success of blogs in bringing out the truth in this story.

  3. Robert Pointer Avatar
    Robert Pointer

    Jeff, its hard to believe that you, of all people who support the potential of citizens journalism (some of it realized already) would shroud this “fact checking event” with election partisanship.
    This is about people taking the reporting into their own hands and trying to make sense of it – an important part of Citizen’s Media (as you’ve framed it in the past).
    In any case, its quite surprising how lukewarm you are about citizens taking the information into their own hands to make sense of it.
    yes, it may be of inconsequence to you from a voting perspective, but it certainly is of consequence from a citizen’s media perspective.
    Think of it this way – Citizen’s media is learning its way through exercises like this. Soon enough it will start to also set the tempo for what stories should be told, but right now it is still learning its powers through opportunities that CBS presented it. At some point, citizens media will begin to usurp mass media, but that will occur after it get’s comfortable in its own skin.
    BTW, I think its pretty obvious that the letter is forged. That’s significant to those who care about what is presented to them in the media (as an overall concern over many types of stories that are presented to us as fact….)
    .02,
    rob.

  4. Cog Avatar
    Cog

    Well 2 witnesses from CBS ended up recanting their story. And one was a typewriter repairman instead of typography expert. And one witness referenced by the Boston Globe issued a partial retraction for claims he made.
    I actually kept an old typewriter, and every so often I stop by a vintage typewriter shop in downtown Los Altos.
    I do not know about a lot of the charges, but the superscript th would have been improbable for a personal memo on 99% of every typewriter I have ever used.
    And I think I read the same “small vertical variation” quote on atrios or kos. How he made that claim is bizarre. I have used dot matrix printers that whose prints looked like they came out of a washing machine.
    There is really no debate about this at all. We are all discussing copies of copies that were probably faxed and then ran through a copier. There are significant questions that need to be answered, but unless CBS releases the originals, all the talk will be for the most part speculation.

  5. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Oh come on Mike, since when did you become a typography expert?
    It is well documented that the technology existed at the time. Well before the time, actually. Now, do you know definitively that the guy didn’t have access to a decent IBM typewriter with the type wheel with superscript ‘th’? No, you don’t.
    All you’re doing is accepting what you’re told, as long as it came from your side. You’re the choir, you’re being preached to.
    Simple logic dictates that you can’t rule out the creation of a document in the 70s, just because you can recreate it today. This article will help you figure that out.
    Again, I don’t see any way of proving the documents’ authenticity or lack thereof beyond a doubt. So what’s going to happen? Nothing.
    People’s opinions are already formed. Everything else is rationalization.

  6. brett Avatar
    brett

    You have got to be kidding me. No person with two brain cells to rub together and who has looked at the evidence can conclude that the memos are legitimate. It is NOT he said, she said. It’s he lied, and she found out.
    This is not mud-slinging. It’s intentional misconduct.

  7. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    And you are Angelos. Give me a break. You can’t just say the technology existed back then, so therefore these memos are authentic. The burden of proof of this evidence is on CBS and Dan Rather. They have to show that these documents are true and they haven’t done that yet, all they have done is mislead, evade, and deny. and it seems they don’t have the originals either. How can they do this story without any credible sources.
    And I am relying on the reports and analysis from multiple experts cited on blogs like INDC, Powerline, Wizbang, Instpundit, among others (even matthew yglesias said today they look like they are forgeries). I never stated I was some sort of expert myself, I’m just looking at the information provided and making the informed choice.
    Maybe if you could see through your hatred of GWB you could do the same.

  8. Tom (American Voter) Avatar
    Tom (American Voter)

    If I listen to bible thumper blogs I’ll know that evolution isn’t provable.
    And if I listen to scientific blogs I’ll know that creationism isn’t science.
    I think I’m going to do is stop listening to people who seem to be living in a different reality than the one I’m living in. Debate between these differnent universes seems pointless to me.
    Tom
    2+2=4

  9. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Typography and typesetting are sizeable part of my income, thank you. I read books and trade magazines on the subject out of personal interest as well.
    I didn’t say they ARE authentic. I said they COULD be. I have the same questions for CBS.
    What I do say is Sullivan’s sentiment of exasperation is well taken. This is all nonsense of Swiftian proportions.

  10. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    And I learned that Dan Rather is pimping for Kerry and CBS is a media whore for the left–but I already knew that. This just confirmed it. But the good part is that the leftwing media can no longer spew lies without being held accountable by bloggers who will inform us of the truth. No more leftist Pravda. Thank God.

  11. Tom (American Voter) Avatar
    Tom (American Voter)

    Has anyone seen the new DNC video DNC Video: Fortunate Son? They start with a 60 Minutes clip of Dan Rather interviewing Ben Barnes. My god, has the DNC totally lost its mind?
    I used to think that Bush would make a better president than Kerry but both would be acceptable. I don’t think that anymore. Kerry is mismanaging this campaign to a degree that it’s scary to think of him in a position of authority.

  12. Cog Avatar
    Cog

    This is far from nonsense. And if you are a typography professional, then linking to the PC Mag article is an embarassment. And I am a subsciber.
    The bottom line is that CBS will not, and does not feel the need to release the originals or name their source. Why could that be?
    The bottom line is 3 witnesses for CBS and the Boston Globe have recanted their positions either completely or in part.
    If you are claiming that because 1 tenth of 1 percent of typerwriters COULD have created a specific element of the documents, then it must follow that they are legit, then do not get upset when people call you on it. Not to mention one of the memos was dated a year and a half after the author left his position.
    I want to see the originals, and then I will compare it to documents that can be created by current software.

  13. RattlerGator Avatar
    RattlerGator

    You know, one of the saddest things over the last year or so has been to view the descent of Andrew Sullivan. Remarkably, he was the first blogger I was exposed to.
    I’m getting the feeling that, sadly, Jeff Jarvis (while not falling nearly as far) is working overtime to * NOT * see the real story on this Dan Rather mess. The ability to frame this story as a he said, she said is stunning.
    This is about an obvious lie; enough with the could have crap; enough with the equivocation.

  14. Brett Avatar
    Brett

    Andrew’s show of that letter is silly.
    He said/She said only pertains to discussions, where we quibble about the conversation. Such points can’t really be proven.
    To suggest that He said/She said applies to Rathergate is to suggest that this is all relativistic, depending on one’s point of view.
    No. Journalism is supposed to be about the truth and doing whatever it takes to get to the truth. Enough with the “might be” crowd. One can stick one’s head up Wishful Thinking’s arse, but journalists who do that will be quickly disregarded for their refusal to search out the truth where it can be found.
    The only thing to ask Andrew Sullivan is how he would like his irrelevance served… and from your title the other day, Jeff, I’m betting “lukewarm.”

  15. John Van Laer Avatar
    John Van Laer

    Let’s not pick on Jeff Jarvis because the bewildering complexity of the typographical aspect of this question leaves him unmoved.
    There must be many smart and intellectually honest people who feel the same way.
    [Here comes the “but.”] But content analysis of the text of these memos is another story. It is inconceivable that anyone familiar with the format and style of military documents could be convinced that they are genuine. There’s the rub.

  16. JEForman Avatar
    JEForman

    Jeff,
    Anyone who draws some kind of equivalence between the left’s arguments and the right’s on this Kerning-Gate story simply lacks the patience to study the pursuasive evidence, OR they have a dog in this fight. Per WaPo’s Kurtz today, there is simply no equivalence of arguments on this one. And as with that huge “Gate” three decades past, the sooner the stonewalling stops, the better it will be for all of us.

  17. Jim Treacher Avatar
    Jim Treacher

    This is why I’ve been encouraging anybody who cares about this story to display this image instead of babbling about kerning and all that. Let people see for themselves.

  18. pete the elder Avatar
    pete the elder

    During the last days of the watergate scandal there were still some republicans who still believed Nixon because of their loyalty to him and their party even though the rest of the country had figured out Nixon was a liar. The democrats who still believe these memos were real are starting to remind me of those republicans, but instead of love for Nixon it is hatred of Bush.

  19. MWB Avatar
    MWB

    Oh dear.
    Et tu, Jarvis?

  20. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Andrew even gives Kitty Kelley some free advertising today. Andrew gets sadder by the day, and when your quote of the day involves that blonde bimbo of bombastic bullshit,Kitty, it
    doesn’t say much for the guy pimping her mud, after complaining about that very thing.

  21. Cog Avatar
    Cog

    Actually, it is even getting worse. It turns out both of the “experts” referenced by CBS were not in fact experts. Neither were certified in any of the related fields, nor were they trained by any law enforcement entity.
    It turns out one was a spiritual handwriting analyst earlier in his career, and the other was a typewriter repairman.
    He said/She said? LMFAO!

  22. MD Avatar
    MD

    I always thought the truth was the most important issue of them all. Silly me, with the reason and the logic.

  23. Chris Josephson Avatar
    Chris Josephson

    rob said:
    “yes, it may be of inconsequence to you from a voting perspective, but it certainly is of consequence from a citizen’s media perspective”
    Yes. What we’ve witnessed is nothing short of fantastic. I’ve seen what’s happened termed as ‘The Shot Heard Round The World’ by a couple of blogs. I think that is close to the impact this will have.
    I should think that no matter what anyone’s personal politics are, you can’t help but cheer to see ‘ordinary people’ making a difference.
    For all the times we’ve been frustrated that MSM isn’t listening and just shoves at us what it deems best, this has been payback for those times.
    I’ve heard people on the left, right, and in the center complain about the MSM and how they distort the facts to suit whatever agenda they have. Seems to me everyone who has ever complained about MSM should be more than happy.
    ‘The Revolt of the Pajama People’

  24. Roy Avatar
    Roy

    Perhaps young Andrew should just look at them himself, and as he blogs regularly he must have a computer where he could reproduce it himself. But that would require effort wouldn’t it?

  25. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Andrew could always buy this computer:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41816&item=3839925186&rd=1
    CNN had the Powerline guy and the Instapundit guy on tonite–even CNN realizes that bloggers solved the fraud. CBS thought they could just brainwash the masses if Mr. High and Mighty,Rather, told the big one, and the bloggers knocked him off his high horse.

  26. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    It is well documented that the technology existed at the time. Well before the time, actually. Now, do you know definitively that the guy didn’t have access to a decent IBM typewriter with the type wheel with superscript ‘th’? No, you don’t.
    No, Angelos, I do know definitively that LTC Killian didn’t have access to a “decent IBM typewriter with a print wheel” at the time, because there were no such typewriters. The daisy wheel printer was just invented in 1970, and was an expensive high-end printer for years more.
    Nothing except an expensive high-end typesetting machine could generate anything like that text, and it’s no more likely that such a machine would be found in a TANG office than an MRI machine would be found in a school nurse’s office.
    Moments of googling would undoubtedly produce a dozen or more real experts who have said comclusively that the memos were forged.

  27. shark Avatar
    shark

    From the right-wing blogs, I learned that the memo font matches MS Times-Roman, and nothing else. From the left-wings blogs, I learned that the memo font matches IBM Press-Roman, and nothing else.
    From the right-wing blogs, I learned that small horizontal variation in spacing is proof of “kerning” and therefore computer generation. From the left-wing blogs, I learned that small vertical variation in alignment is proof of mechanical action and therefore typewriter creation.
    I learned that the right-wing facts are certainly true, as noted by Washington Post experts, and the left-wing facts are certainly true, as established by the Boston Globe.
    Really? Because if you look at “right wing” blogs, you learn a helluva lot more than that. 1 look at the Kerry Spot and Powerline give more facts on this issue than the entire left of the blogsphere combined.
    But at any rate, the idiot who wrote that letter (and the idiots who post it on their blogs as if it means something) miss an important point: ONE OF THEM IS CORRECT, ONE IS INCORRECT.
    This is not like arguing who the 5 greatest baseball players of all time are, where there is room for subjectivity. This is an issue where 2 with someone right, and someone wrong.
    This is not “mud slinging” or “he said, she said” Jeff. This is much more serious. And if you had any intellectual honesty, you’d be all over this for what it is.
    Looks like your credibility is going to go in the toilet, along with CBS.
    So you can stop your “champion of the bloggers” act. If you gave a rats a– about bloggers, you’d be jumping on this.
    Old media habits die hard I guess.

  28. C Bennett Avatar
    C Bennett

    I can see that many, this blog included, are not interested in this, but feigning “font agnosticism” is patronizing and offensive — it’s this font, it’s that, it’s spaced, it isn’t, and on and on and on. It has that old nyah nyah nyah sound.
    Drop it or treat it like a topic — don’t use it to merely as a tool to demonstrate superiority: a kind of disdain for anyone who takes any of it seriously.
    The SEC (oink oink) may look into hearings; ABC oinked about it, the WSJ oinked about it, the WaPo oinked, but here it’s still disdain, patronization, and ridicule.
    The thick air of moral superiority is sometimes harder to take than the fevered swamps of font investigation.
    Yuck. I fear I’m getting sick — I fear I’m catching it through the blog.

  29. RattlerGator Avatar
    RattlerGator

    One can’t help but wonder — what say you today, Jeff? Still “he said, she said, doesn’t matter”?

  30. Hovig Avatar
    Hovig

    This letter was the biggest nonsense I’ve ever seen, and I’m amazed other bloggers post to it as if it contains wisdom.
    The letter-writer is not a good blog reader. They seem to want God to Tell Them what to Believe. They may as well watch Dan Rather.
    The point of this debate is not for blogs to dictate the Truth to people, but to argue for it. The point of the CBS debacle is not that blogs are all right, but that they constitute a free market of ideas, from which the ideas that stand the most attacks will win.
    Worst, if that letter-writer bothered to perform more than a superficial analysis of any of the blogs from which he supposedly “has learned” anything, he might actually literally have learned something.
    This letter is moot, and its posting on other blogs, as if it contains wisdom, is itself unwise.