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Are you better off more liberal than four years ago…?

17 comments on Are you better off more liberal than four years ago…?

Are you better off more liberal than four years ago…?

: Tom Watson (the American, not the blogging MP) says it’s a myth that America has moved to the right under the forceful wind of Republican conservatism:

We can argue symbols, of course. (The phony marriage amendment comes to mind). And we should argue about policy. (Iraq). But answer these litmus test questions. Is the Federal government more powerful than it was five, 10, 20, 50 years ago? Does it collect more and spend more? Does it regulate much less? Have reproductive rights been rolled back? Do we spend less on education than we ever have in the past? Are we really more culturally conservative?

17 responses to “Are you better off more liberal than four years ago…?”

  1. Demosophist Avatar
    Demosophist

    I worked with S.M. Lipset on a number of projects that involved polling Americans on a series of values that could reasonably be regarded as “Americanism.” These have to do with three broad categories: anti-statism, religious sectarianism, and equality (of opportunity). We found (as of about the year 2000, and I haven’t kept up since then) that there is more regional conformity to these three sets of values, and more general conformity across the ideological spectrum, than any time since the Roosevelt administration (TR, not FDR). Whether this is “conservative” is open to interpretation, and there’s a lot of finagling, but since it references core American values I’d call it conservative in the Whiggish rather than the Tory sense.
    I think it’s fair to say, within limits, that we’re more “conservative” than we have been for a long time, which is to say “less Euro.” But even though the shift toward welfare statism and social democracy impacted the US somewhat less than it did other Western nations there has been a certain momentum. Therefore the real test at this point of whether these values, especially anti-statism, have had an impact on real policy isn’t whether or not historical trends have been reversed, but whether they’ve slowed.
    I think one can easily make a fairly good circumstantial case that the trend has slowed. In fact one could say that there’s something of a consensus not only in the US but in most of the English-speaking world (if not yet in France and Germany) that welfare statism is noncompetitive. Moreover, even though Canada can be identified as a Social Democratic country skepticism toward trade unionism is actually greater in Canada than the US, which is a reflection of the fact that the US is the “point of the sword.” That is, countries are becoming more like the US, than the US is becoming like them. The trend, from year to year, is still toward more statist solutions, which is probably due to that “iron cage” syndrome that Max Weber identified so long ago. But it has slowed significantly, and more to the point Keynesian Economics has almost completely given way to Hayekian Economics in most of the first world and a good part of the third world.
    “Conservatism” is really something of a false metric, because the meaning attached to it depends on the political/social context. But the US, as well as the world in general, is becoming more American. And in part that’s why the level of panic on the part of the institutionalized and non-institutionalized left has increased dramatically.

  2. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    I don’t think America has moved to the right either. I think we have distanced ourselves from the far left. This is a great audio feed from the convention with Ed Koch. He’s saying Kerry is ultra liberal. “He first asked what blogs were, and after the explanation he joked “So I’m a half-assed blogger!” He also praised Andrew Sullivan’s blog and reads it. (I would love to see him start a blog) http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/001834.html
    Captians quarters has some it transcribed if you don’t have time to listen to the audio link above.
    http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002367.php

  3. Rich Avatar
    Rich

    I’m not more conservative than I was four years ago. The Democrats abandoned my center-left position to run further to the left, and in the process embraced much that I found repugnant. The fact that Joe Lieberman was a lone voice crying in the wilderness during the primaries is a great illustration of why I won’t be voting for a Democrat for President in 2004.

  4. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    By the Same token Rich, the Republicans have run so far to the right that I’m embarrassed to consider myself conservative.
    This is going to be a convention of hate and bigotry. The opening invocation will be by someone who compares gay rights supporters to Hitler. And it’s downhill from there.
    Except when they’ll actually be on TV. My favorite media moment of the weekend:
    Eleanor Clift: The [GOP Convention prime time] stage will be full of moderates who could never win a Republican primary, who do not represent the basic values expressed in the Republican platform.
    John McLaughlin: You’re correct.
    Clift: It’s a total fraud.
    McLaughlin: Well it’s also an abolitionist document. Ban gay marriage, ban civil unions benefits, ban abortion. It’s a series of bans. It’s not compassionate conservatism.
    (end clip)
    That’s funny stuff.

  5. Tom Watson Avatar
    Tom Watson

    No, no, no – did no mean to suggest that the organized left went too far left – it hasn’t, in my opinion. In no way is the former ADA, Kiwanis Club luncheon speaker John Kerry a radical.
    No, I’m suggesting the country moves glacially leftward all the time – that we’re more progressive as a society, in general 30,000-foot terms than we were a decade ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago. I’m suggesting the conservative movement rose, stalled, was seduced by spending tax dollars, and is essentially dead – except for fig leaf social issues (like the bans, above) to get Republicans elected. And the Democrats moved to the center to counter it.

  6. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Angelos, you crack me up. You call yourself an independent, but you speak more leftist talking points than most of the liberal bloggers out there. Your comments are filled with hate for the right and total self-absorption of your supposed moral high-ground. Get over yourself.

  7. Chris Josephson Avatar
    Chris Josephson

    I don’t see the country has moved to the Right. What I see is that what was once termed Liberal has been hijacked by the Left and Far Left and people have reacted against that. People I know who proudly identify as Liberal, and have for years, don’t identify with what is passed off as Liberalism today.
    It’s not the country, or the people who have moved, it’s the definition of Liberal and people calling themselves Liberal when they aren’t that has changed. The change in definition has changed more than the viewpoint of people.
    Take Kerry, for example. I know Liberals who view him as much more of a Leftie than they do a traditional Liberal. Kerry may have started as a Liberal and actually may be one, but because the Democrats have played so much to their Left supporters, Kerry has lost ground among some traditional Liberals.
    The MSM may not see that Liberal has a new definition. It’s been so gradual many haven’t been aware of it. They are the ones, mainly, who are claiming the country has shifted to the Right.
    Clinton tried to keep the Democrats from identifying too much with the Left. He understood that Liberal is NOT Left. The current folks running the Democratic Party seem to have forgotten that.
    There’s also been changes among the ‘lunch pail Democrats’ (blue collar). Don’t know if these people have been counted as changing from Liberal to Conservative. But there have been changes.
    Some may find this: No Free Lunch For Kerry interesting.

  8. pianoman Avatar
    pianoman

    The GOP has moved to the middle. The Dems have given up centrist Clintonism, and moved left. A John Kennedy Democrat would now be considered a “conservative”. As a result, many old-school Dems now find their values more closely aligned with the GOP.
    The far Right has no power any more. Pat Buchanan sits in a room by himself and talks to the wall. Who got more votes: Buchanan or Nader?
    If the Dems want power again, they better start listening to the voices of moderation in their party. People like Lieberman.

  9. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Blah blah talking points blah blah.
    It seems you, Kat, and shark, et al, have nothing to say, so you trot out the “talking points” attack, like it still has any currency.
    I, on the other hand, looked at the roster of speakers. I looked at the prime time lineup, as compared to the dead hours lineup. I noticed a trend. I did this yesterday.
    It was a happy coincidence (and source of a good chuckle) that I found that snippet of the transcript this morning, that echoed what I had already seen for myself.
    As far as being independent, well, that’s what I am. I am not registered with any party. I look at the ballots every couple of years and vote what I see, based on the choices I’ve been given by the primaries.
    Locally, I’ve voted for Republican mayors and Democratic judges, a Republican County Clerk. State-wide, I didn’t vote for Hillary. I might have voted for Rudy, but when he dropped out I couldn’t vote for the idiot that replaced him. I don’t even remember his name, I was that unimpressed.
    I voted for Bush senior the first time, Clinton twice, and neither idiot last time. This time, I think my choice has to be based on the future of: the Supreme Court (someone’s going to die or retire in the next 4 years), the budget, and the fact that George and his cronies have proven to be mostly corrupt and inept. Empricial observation to me. For you, “talking points.” Whatever.
    Feel confident in your hypocracy. Because talking points is all your side has anymore. You know, like “shadowy groups”. Like “trial lawyer”. Like “terror” and “9/11”.
    Here’s my favorite McLellan job from last week:
    And the President said he wanted to work together to pursue court action to shut down all the ads and activity by these shadowy 527 groups… The President thought we got rid of all of this kind of shadowy activity when he signed the campaign finance reforms into law… And so the President reached out to Senator McCain to say, let’s work together and pursue court action to shut down all of this activity by these shadowy groups… The President condemns all the ads and activity by these shadowy groups… All, all the ads and activity by the shadowy groups. That would include everything that these shadowy groups are involved in… The President wants Senator Kerry to join us in calling for a stop to all of the ads and activity by these shadowy groups. The President has condemned all of this activity by these shadowy groups… And so the President looks forward to working with Senator McCain to pursue court action to shut down all of this activity by these shadowy groups.
    But hey, don’t let my talking points get in the way of your convictions.

  10. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    Keep the faith, Angelos! We’re working on the matter/anti-matter core, we just have to get the dilithium crystals in alignment. We’ll bust you out of that Evil SpockBush universe yet! In the meantime, keep your head down and watch out for Chekov.

  11. Tom Grey - Liberty Dad Avatar
    Tom Grey – Liberty Dad

    Liberal — end all laws against gay behavior, sodomy, etc.
    Leftist — grant marriage privileges to gays, use “hate crime” laws to put Christians in prison who say gay behavior is evil (Ake Green, Sweden).
    “Progressives” want movement; if the Liberal is achieved, the movement wanting progressive wants to keep going Left.
    Leftists want more gov’t solutions.
    Conservatives want more civil society solutions.
    Great post — the USA has bigger gov’t; Bush is no “small gov’t” conservative. But Kerry would be worse = bigger gov’t. (Or, maybe not; maybe in opposition to Kerry, a Rep congress would stop most of his foolishness. Prolly biggest reason to favor Kerry, if you do.)

  12. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Good point Andrea. Well researched.

  13. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    At a news conference yesterday, Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, a group of social conservatives, said that the push to strengthen the platform’s opposition to same-sex civil unions was partly a response to Vice President Dick Cheney’s statement last week that he personally favored leaving the issue up to the states.
    “We are obviously troubled by the vice president’s comments last week, which in ways led to the strengthening of the language in the platform,” Mr. Perkins said.
    ——-
    In other words, we are troubled by the fact that the VP has a gay daughter, and wouldn’t come right out and condemn her for being born gay.
    We’ve of course made sure she isn’t at the convention with her mother, father, and sister. That’s how strong our family values are.

  14. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Tom, it is the conservatives that want to make government bigger and more invasive, to the extent that they’re willing to change the f-ing constitution to institutionalize their exclusionism.

  15. Tom Watson Avatar
    Tom Watson

    Angelos – yes it is.

  16. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    ????

  17. Tom Watson Avatar
    Tom Watson

    You’re right – it is the conservatives who “want to make government bigger and more invasive, to the extent that they’re willing to change the f-ing constitution to institutionalize their exclusionism.” I’m agreeing with you – and saying they will fail, as they have for the past half century….