Moore critics under every rock

Moore critics under every rock

: Scott Simon — to me, the caricature of an NPR host and listener, a professional nice guy, a presumed (by association) liberal — slices into Michael Moore and his credibility in the Wall Street Journal:

Trying to track the unproven innuendoes and conspiracies in a Michael Moore film or book is as futile as trying to count the flatulence jokes in one by Adam Sandler….

In the New York Times, Paul Krugman wrote that, “Viewers may come away from Moore’s movie believing some things that probably aren’t true,” and that he “uses association and innuendo to create false impressions.” Try to imagine those phrases on a marquee. But that is his rave review! He lauds “Fahrenheit 9/11” for its “appeal to working-class Americans.” Do we really want to believe that only innuendo, untruths, and conspiracy theories can reach working-class Americans?

Governments of both parties have assuaged Saudi interests for more than 50 years. (I wonder if Mr. Moore grasps how much the jobs of auto workers in Flint depended on cheap oil.) Sound questions about the course, costs, and grounds for the war in Iraq have been raised by voices across the political spectrum.

But when 9/11 Commission Chairman Kean has to take a minute at a press conference, as he did last Thursday, to knock down a proven falsehood like the secret flights of the bin Laden family, you wonder if those who urge people to see Moore’s film are informing or contaminating the debate. I see more McCarthy than Murrow in the work of Michael Moore. No matter how hot a blowtorch burns, it doesn’t shed much light.

Good for you, Mr. Simon.

63 responses to “Moore critics under every rock”

  1. sbw Avatar

    Scott Simon caught my mind as far back as 1996 when I wrote to him about one of his essays. His considered words bring clarity to issues.
    I never have never associated him with NPR’s liberal habits, but rather with the tradition of Murrow who also drew strength from understanding what was right and why.
    When Simon writes “you wonder if those who urge people to see Moore’s film are informing or contaminating the debate”, he has brought our attention to the meat of the matter.

  2. jason moon Avatar
    jason moon

    I wanna just watch the convention, not hear everyone else’s take on it….back here in Michigan, they’re attacking one of tonight’s speakers, also from Michigan. See http://www.migop.org

  3. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    I thought that was a really excellent essay. I do wonder if having a publication in WSJ isn’t a career-limiting move at NPR, though.

  4. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Theodore Roosevelt said, “To announce that there should be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, it is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American people.”

  5. Mike Avatar

    Michael,
    I’m sure Roosevelt was referring to honest criticism, not backhanded inuendo and lies. But, if you believe that this quote would pertain to Michael Moore’s work, than you are as morally bankrupt as he is.

  6. David Irwin Avatar
    David Irwin

    I like Scott Simon, but have been disappointed that he became a cheer leader for the war. On the “secret Bin Laden flights,” I don’t think it is desputable that Saudi flights were kept mum: Tampa International Airport finally issued a statement to the effect that the flights out of Tampa had taken place because the 9/11 Commission was asking about it. Up until then the flights with Saudi students from The University of Tampa officially never existed, in spite of reporters requesting information. Michael Moore didn’t make this stuff up.

  7. John Avatar

    There’s nothing wrong with critcizing those in power, but when you make yourself prosecutor, judge, jury and total arbiter of what the truth is, then you have a problem.
    When Moore testifies under oath in court that what a person feels is the truth is more important than the truth itself, he’s asking the audience to accept what he feels as being the truth. Doing that for Moore, or anyone else for that matter, requires lemming-like behavior on the part of the audience, and it’s what Simon is trying to warn people against with his essay.

  8. billg Avatar

    “Working-class Americans”?
    Where is this great gathering of unemployed Americans with the means and leisure to contemplate life in a manner consistent with Mr. Krugman’s views? Does not Mr. Krugman work?

  9. Kim Avatar

    I read Joey Tartakovsky’ piece on Moore. He’s goes into more detail about the facts of the shots used in the movie.
    http://victorhanson.com/articles/tartakovsky072804.htm
    In one of the best-known scenes from Fahrenheit 9/11, President George W. Bush is captured on film appearing more concerned about his skill at golf than his leadership in the war for civilization. Speaking to a throng of reporters, President Bush remarks,

  10. old maltese Avatar
    old maltese

    I agree with Charlie, and will go further: why does Scott Simon (with long NPR credentials) have to go to the Wall Street Journal to publish this?
    Washington, D.C. is NPR-land. Wouldn’t the Washington Post run it? L.A. Times? Atlanta Journal-Constitution? Sioux Falls Argus Leader?
    They would be much more effective outlets than the preach-to-the-choir Wall Street Journal op-ed section.

  11. Robert McClelland Avatar

    Yes, good for Mr. Simon. After all, we have to stop that evil Moore before he lies us into a war.

  12. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    >”I’m sure Roosevelt was referring to honest criticism, not backhanded inuendo and lies. But, if you believe that this quote would pertain to Michael Moore’s work, than you are as morally bankrupt as he is.”

  13. Chris Pierson Avatar
    Chris Pierson

    Michael: “Morally bankrupt” has about the same substance in right-wing discourse as “anti-American.” You are being attacked with feathers.

  14. Mike Avatar

    Michael,
    I consider Coulter’s work to be satire. I take her no more seriosly than I would other partisan nut cases (on both sides). And if Coulter produced the same style of documentary (and I use that term loosely) about Clinton as MM did about Bush, than yes, Roosevelt’s statement wouldn’t apply to her either.
    MM has claimed that his work is completely factual and not misleading in any way. That is dishonest. And the fact that you seem to agree with MM is the reason I called you what I did.

  15. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Mike:
    1. When you say “partisan nut cases (on both sides),” does that include Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the O’Reilly Factor?
    2. Why do you say that I “seem to agree with MM”?

  16. thedragonflies Avatar

    The amazing thing to me is that the Dems are featuring MM in the president

  17. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Limbaugh is clearly aware of the status of his own discourse, so I don’t think he’s a nut case.
    Hannity and O’Reilly, though, yeah.

  18. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    …why does Scott Simon (with long NPR credentials) have to go to the Wall Street Journal to publish this?
    That’s actually a lovely point. Why did Scott Simon have to leave the reservation to that extent?
    That may be a rhetorical question, though….

  19. Mike Avatar

    No, no, and no.

  20. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Mike:
    “No,no and no.”
    By that do you mean you do NOT consider Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the Bill O’Reilly “partisan nut cases”?
    If you do not, how do you distinquish them from MM?

  21. Mike Avatar

    Do you have a point?

  22. hugh macleod Avatar

    Michael Moore is bad karma, regardless of what you think of Bush.
    And I think even Moore fans know that. But the group-catharsis Moore offers his audience is just too strong, too tempting, too intoxicating…

  23. Andy Avatar

    AS Moore said about his upcoming hit piece on HMO’s “When you spend $6 million and rbing in $100 million there are many people who will fund your next project”…It’s not a direct quote, but an approximation. His point is that people will pay money for his brand of truth.
    Look for HMO’s to take the hit in their stock prices. Of Course, there will be NO CORRELLATION between the cost of health service OR availability of services when he is finished.
    Who will insure an HMO or care facility AFTER Moore drives the rage (and spurs the lawyers)?
    I think that Moore may have “jumped the shark” with his hit piece on Bush. At least he goes out with a fat wallet.
    If Bush wins or loses, either way, Moore will spawn 100 imitators. Look for wholesale outrage at cut rate prices in the next election cycle.
    Moore has demonstrated that MONEY and POLITICAL power await those who enter into the celebrity = politician = celebrity game. Nothing breeds imitation in Hollywood and Washington like success.

  24. sbw Avatar

    Does it concern the defenders of MM at all that people believe his mockumentary? [Not my inventive word, but a bloggin’ accurate description.]
    Surely you appreciate what it says about our educational system.

  25. Robert McClelland Avatar

    Does it concern the defenders of MM at all that people believe his mockumentary?
    Does it concern the defenders of Bush at all that people believe his mockugovernment? I didn’t hear anyone on the right complain when 60-70% of the American people believed that Saddam was connected in some way to 9/11.

  26. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Oh shut up, you tedious rube.

  27. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    The Iraq 9/11 connection was a worthless poll. The belief in Moore is in full public view. Right out of the mouths of babes. The very public embrace of the liar by Dem officials is all the leftist masses need for validation of thier ignorance.
    Besides Robert, don’t you really think all Americans are stupid? Deep down I mean.

  28. Cog Avatar

    Wow, that is one of the articles I have read about the situation to date.
    One thing left out that should have been included: Moore intentionally edits and distorts what people says for his films, but in a simple debate with OReilly, he demanded the interview be broadcast unedited.
    In addition to everything in the article, Moore is a hypocrite.

  29. Cog Avatar

    Make that, one of the best articles I have read about the situation to date.

  30. Robert McClelland Avatar

    The very public embrace of the liar by Dem officials is all the leftist masses need for validation of thier ignorance.
    And the very public embrace of the liar by Repub officials is all the rightist masses need for validation of their ignorance. Give it up. You lose on this. The left might be embracing Moore’s lies but the right swallowed Bush’s lies hook, line and sinker.

  31. Patrick Avatar

    “I didn’t hear anyone on the right complain when 60-70% of the American people believed that Saddam was connected in some way to 9/11.”
    The Saddam-Al Qaeda connection has been established, even 911 Commission report cited many instances of contacts, and they didnt even go into the full set terror-supporting activities of Iraq and Saddam. If anything the media is *underreporting* the extent of Saddams support for terrorism and Al Qaeda affiliates.
    Inlcuding the 1992 meetings between Zawahiri and Saddam’s regime in baghdad. In 1998, Bin Laden and Saddam’s intelligence agents met. Saddam offered save haven to Bin Laden. Bin Laden decided to stick it out in Afghanistan. Of course, had Bin Laden accepted, we would have been invading Iraq before Afghanistan, wouldnt we.
    It is without a doubt the fact that Saddam sponsored attacks on Americans and paid for those who did. Not just the 1993 hit on GHWB, but palestinian bombers, Abu Nidal, and apparently members of the 1993 WTC plot.
    Saddam has links to 1993 WTC bombing via the plot member who escaped to baghdad (Ramzi Yousef) and another Yasin who ended up in Iraq on Iraqi intelligence payroll; saddam’s agents provided training to Al Qaeda in Sudan, and his regime also had links via Zarqawi and Ansar Al-Islam (intelligence agents were practically in charge of that terror group). And he sponsored other terrorist groups and causes. USing oil-for-food corruption to funnel some of the money!
    People use Saddam-911 as some kind of bizarre how-could-it-happen connection, when in fact assumptions that Saddam might have a 911 connection are not far-fetched at all. Indeed, absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Ramzi Yousef might be an Iraqi agent – can you say not? At least one author thinks he is. He is Khalid Sheik Mohammed’s nephew. Both are AQ, but are *not* religious fanatics – they hate the US from a palestinian/antiUS/antiIsrael radical political view. Like Abu Nidal. Like,say, Saddam.
    So the 911 link is a matter of dubious evidence, and also people who are not delving into the distinction between 9/11 and more generalized terrorist support. I’ve seen the lamenting of the Saddam – 9/11 link *without* raising the facts I cite of the links that *are* there, and the debate around that; or consider that Abu Zarqawi was and *is today* a terror link.
    What is far-fetched is being willing to pay $8 to go see now *proven false* lies about how Bush spirited saudis out of the country, proven false lies about how Saddam was a swell guy (ignore those mass graves!), from a nut-ball who called terrorists in Iraq “the minutemen” and who said that “there is no terrorist threat”. Moore peddles conspiracy theories far more farfetched than saddam helping a particular terrorist plot (grab a clue! Saddam sponsored terrorism for 2 decades!)

  32. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Like a good socialist you feel empowered to decide who wins or loses. Bush did not lie about his info on WMD. Three reports have proven this. What is it you believe he lied about specifically. In addition, I am supporting Bush to support my country against determined enemies. Moore’s enemy is America. Those who follow him are thrilled with seeing America insulted. They are of course free to hate this country but I don’t feel they have a right to deliberately endager it simply because they think they are some “super race” of intellectuals who know better than the rest of their fellow citizens. The palm at Cannes is censure enough in itself. As a Canadian I know you were raised to hate my country and that’s okay since it doesn’t really matter what Canada thinks about anything as the recent trial in Iran shows so well. If America is attacked again I know full well there is nothing Canada or Europe could or would do to assist us. We will have to do all the fighting ourselves. Therefore my first loyalty is to my fellow citizens. Not to nations that privately cheered 9/11 as a well deserved punch. If America had a United States south of our border to give us an economy and a defense force then perhaps we too could spend all our money on ourselves (healthcare) and admire ourselves for not being like those beastly southerners. But America has no one to turn to. We have to take care of things ourselves. And since there is little you can provide to help the situation, why do you imagine your nation would have an equal position in our relationship? Lions are not impressed with hyenas moving in on thier hard won prize. As a member of the south (Tennessee) my vote has heavy weight on who resides in the white house. Even the 2004 Dem ticket had to have a southerner on it. As a result, what I think outweighs what you think by a factor of at least 100. So actually, your bitterness, you lose. Every day.

  33. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Like a good socialist you feel empowered to decide who wins or loses. Bush did not lie about his info on WMD. Three reports have proven this. What is it you believe he lied about specifically. In addition, I am supporting Bush to support my country against determined enemies. Moore’s enemy is America. Those who follow him are thrilled with seeing America insulted. They are of course free to hate this country but I don’t feel they have a right to deliberately endager it simply because they think they are some “super race” of intellectuals who know better than the rest of their fellow citizens. The palm at Cannes is censure enough in itself. As a Canadian I know you were raised to hate my country and that’s okay since it doesn’t really matter what Canada thinks about anything as the recent trial in Iran shows so well. If America is attacked again I know full well there is nothing Canada or Europe could or would do to assist us. We will have to do all the fighting ourselves. Therefore my first loyalty is to my fellow citizens. Not to nations that privately cheered 9/11 as a well deserved punch. If America had a United States south of our border to give us an economy and a defense force then perhaps we too could spend all our money on ourselves (healthcare) and admire ourselves for not being like those beastly southerners. But America has no one to turn to. We have to take care of things ourselves. And since there is little you can provide to help the situation, why do you imagine your nation would have an equal position in our relationship? Lions are not impressed with hyenas moving in on thier hard won prize. As a member of the south (Tennessee) my vote has heavy weight on who resides in the white house. Even the 2004 Dem ticket had to have a southerner on it. As a result, what I think outweighs what you think by a factor of at least 100. So actually, your bitterness, you lose. Every day.

  34. sbw Avatar

    …”before he lies us into a war”
    Canard! Bush believed the same intelligence most Dems, the U.N., Hans Blix, and Chirac believed. And was in a position to be obliged to act on it… as I hope a Democrat in the same circumstance would have done.
    Sigh.

  35. Patrick Avatar

    “The left might be embracing Moore’s lies but the right swallowed Bush’s lies hook, line and sinker.”
    This itself is a lie. What Bush said about WMDs in Iraq is no different than what Clinton said, what Kerry said, what Edwards said, and indeed what the CIA said, as the Senate Intel report established.
    Iraq had hidden WMD programs from UN and the world. Biotoxins, missile developments, and dormant nuclear weapons programs ready to be restarted. An IED with sarin gas is found in Iraq and it makes no news. Polish troops find chemical weapons munitions, but, nope, we gotta stick with the “no WMDs found” line.
    Joe Wilson makes a claim and it becomes a year-long Bush-bash. The Senate intel report and Butler reports clear Bush, and makes clear that Joe Wilson was concocting tales and blowing smoke, and there is dead silence about it. Kerry removes the Joe Wilson website and material that was bashing Bush with nary a word from the media about it.
    Yeah, someone is lying. It’s not Bush.

  36. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Sorry about the double post and no offense meant to any of my fellow Bush supports in other parts of the country.

  37. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Sorry about the double post and no offense meant to any of my fellow Bush supports in other parts of the country.

  38. Franky Avatar

    “As a result, what I think outweighs what you think by a factor of at least 100. So actually, your bitterness, you lose. Every day.”
    God I wish foreigners would stop calling us arrogant. I mean, really where do they get that wild and crazy idea from?

  39. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Well Franky, your diligent bend over attitude balances things out somewhat I’m sure. And do you really believe Robert to be a meek and submissive personality? He gloated so happily when Spain betrayed us and ran from Iraq. Arrogance is universal. I’m certain Robert does not need your uh, “servicing” on this site. I’m not responsible for Robert’s prejudices against Americans. That’s his problem.

  40. Franky Avatar

    Congrats for seamlessly “inserting” two homo jokes “in” your “response”.
    I can’t see the connection between an arrogant attitude and gloating, but letting that malapropism slide: Spain betrayed us? Yeah that damn democracy…government takes a hostile population in to a war that proves all the stated reasons for the war were false. God why can’t those spaniards just give up on voting and do what we say everytime. And you’re now a massive supporter of democracy in Iraq, right? Let me guess how that will go. When they vote in favor of what we want, they’re good, but when not they’re traitors. Am I on the right track?
    The fact is that the Spanish government screwed up, intetionaly or not, and the Spanish electorate proved they have a greater grasp of democracy than us. The government commits such an error as taking us to the wrong war, you punish them with eviction because you cannot let that precedent stand, just like we should never have let the precedent of Clinton lying to us stand. But I’ve noticed that repubs these days roll their eyes at the mention of precedents or consitution, so I’ll leave it there.

  41. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    I voted for Clinton both times and there is much that I don’t trust about Republicans. Bush presented it and Congress voted for it. What is the problem? They looked at the same evidence he did. As a gay man myself I’m sorry that homo references offend you so. Your way of doing things didn’t work. Our enemies just got uglier and more dangerous until 9/11 occured. We are trying something different now. But instead of standing with your fellow Americans in this fight you take your littel partisan axe and start chopping at the foundation of our efforts. You are more worried about the Patriot Act which has done nothing to you and simply ignore the violence worldwide against us. I’ve voted Democrat in the past but I will never forgive their obvious indifference to 9/11. It seemed more a bother because it interupted the socialist flow of society that had been forming in the 90s. Now your side has to answer for your policies you either run out into the street destroying property in your “peace” marches or you go to the Dem convention and pretend to support things you don’t agree with in order to fool just enough of us to consider you legitimate leaders. I”ll take an honest American anti-gay bigot over a lying godless Euro-Canadian any day.

  42. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Perhaps I should say the Spanish people betrayed us. I can’t think of anything more wrong than nations with American troops or ships stationed in their borders for their protection these 50 years can actually look Americans in the face and say they cannot send troops to assist us in our efforts. They voted against the one nation that has guaranteed their freedom without any internal meddling in their affairs. Is that better?
    If the Iraqis turn into an Arab France it will be very dissapointing for me. No doubt you hope they will become anti american so you can respect them again. Keep your fingers crossed, there’s always hope isn’t there?

  43. Franky Avatar

    In all my experience of gays, I’ve never once heard one use the analogy of homoseuxal sex as an insult. Live and learn I guess.
    “You are more worried about the Patriot Act which has done nothing to you”….this is an interesting idea that I’m trying to develop. The repubs were historically the party that believed in devolved power, the rights of states and individuals. It was often conservatives who could be relied upon to take up the cases of free speech, because in their fundamental distrust of government they released that to give the government power over some of the population would inevitably lead to it grasping to control the rest of the population. So they defended Nazis free speech today, knowing that they could be next tomorrow if we gave the government the power of discretion. Ohhh for the days of a republican party living to its beliefs in conservatism rather than those who bookshelves are filled with “Left Behind”.
    “But instead of standing with your fellow Americans in this fight you take your littel partisan axe and start chopping at the foundation of our efforts.”
    Yeah in opposing a bullshit war that sent 1,000 of our soldiers to their deaths for NO GODDAMN REASON I’m the one doing damage to our country. For demanding answers for why we’re in Iraq, for demanding accountability from our government, I’m taking “a partisan axe”. I know what your idea of “stadning with your fellow American” means: it means we’re going to do whatever the hell we want (related to hunting terrorists or not), and if you criticise you’re taking an axe to all of your countrymen.
    This administration took the united energy we had to go after the terrorists and used it to advance the grubby hidden agenda of invading Iraq they had been working on while out of power. Contemptible.
    Your concepts of governance and the duty of the citizen are radically different from mine.

  44. Franky Avatar

    So America provided protection to Europe, so they should support us in all of our “misinformed” foreign policy adventures? America was not under attack from Iraq. Get it straight. If spain had abandoned us during an attack by Mexico, that is betrayl. We chose this war. We didn’t need to fight it. We were warned by the whole world that there was no need for this war. We fought it anyway and shame on the countries who joined us in taking war so lightly.

  45. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    The Patriot Act must be renewed each year. We can stop it anytime. You’d have to trust your fellow Americans to do that though. And as you so meekly admited in another thread that you are a proud member of the “elite” you would never respect your fellow citizens enough to believe that we can control this thing. Its good to be worried about it but it doesn’t require revolution just yet. This war is not bullshit. The entire Mid East had this coming. The Europe that wouldn’t remove Saddam is the Europe that isn’t doing anything about Iran’s nuclear ambitions or Sudan’s genocide. Ask you heros in the UN and Canada and Europe to put America to shame and show us what their competent efforts and cooperation can do to make a better world. Ha Ha.

  46. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Back on topic. Does it not bother you that Hammas is showing Moore’s film? That this is one of only a few American documentaries that Communist China willingly displays to its people? Is that the company you’re comfortable with? The man is quoted trashing Americans in the world but this doesn’t bother you at all?

  47. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Ptolemy:
    On “Bush didn’t lie,” I’ll concede that no one but Bush knows whether he lied, was misled himself, or was mistaken. But that

  48. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Ptolemy:
    The one piece of evidence of Iraq

  49. Sissy Willis Avatar

    Forget about Kael’s “slick ad execs.” Moore’s relationship to facts reminds us of the MSM. As we and the blogosphere are forever pointing out, big media have their narratives — Bush Lied

  50. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    That’s all well and good Michael. But I was never worried about Iraq attacking us. I saw the invasion for what it was. A new way of dealing with that xenophobic septic tank called the Mid East. He gave several reasons, and no doubt took info given him and ran with it to help bolster the case but the people focusing on the WMD are the same ones who did not want this war to begin with. You haven’t convinced enough Americans that it was wrong so you desperately grasp at the one thing you just know will bring Bush down – he lied and our children died. I see it for what it is. Keep up the fight if you believe in it but stay honest about it. Set the example for us pro-Bush suckers. Otherwise, what are you bitching about? Franky made an attempt of saying I opposed democracy (Spain) when it doesn’t go my way. No better message could be given to the Dems in light of November ’02 don’t you think?

  51. Franky Avatar

    The latest justification: we never really meant WMDS, “we saw it for what is was”….so this administration took us to war on a pretext, but didn’t have the balls to state it’s case plainly, instead using subterfuge and fear of WMDS. I would not be proud of that.
    Is it possible to state meekly that one is an elitist? I gave up on our electorate and system of political parties when I was presented with a choice of Al Gore or George Bush. And I genuinely struggle to understand how anybody with an IQ of over 95 can not share my deep disappointment with how this great experiment, our nation, has turned out.
    Does it bnother me that Chinese are criticising this administration? Hell no. I expect to slate the chinese government when talking with Chinese nationals and will sneer at their indignation in daring to criticise China as much as I do the “don’t criticise America” crowd.
    Does it bother you when Cuban dissidents trash their own country?
    Do you how small of cul-de-sac nationalism and blind patriotism is in a debate?

  52. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    I can’t untangle your second paragraph so I can’t reply. No need to struggle your highness. Just accept that you are the one bright star in humanity that actually KNOWS what’s going on. You can claim to be an elitist in many ways such as the silly example above. I will admit that I felt Bush was overstating WMD from the start but again, that was not the real purpose for going there and I kinda felt I knew that too. The WMD had to be used I think because the Left and the UN would never accept action to remove a major problem in the mideast for humanitarian reasons (Sudan anyone?). You don’t like American using its power. That is it. You hide by being deceived or lack of allies but you don’t like American taking action on its own. I do. We have some dark stains but we are the New Jerusalem compared to those whores in Europe.
    I did like the reference to Left Behind though. That was funny and accurate to a segment of the right. Can’t you give your own country the benefit of the doubt just one time in your life? Do you go through life worried what everyone else thinks of you? Why do you ask America to do so? You don’t strike me as a shy person. Surely you will take a stand and stick to it regardless what friends/family/co-workers say. A nation should too. A nation doesn’t strive to be France, a nation ends up that way after wrong directions taken.

  53. Franky Avatar

    you misread me. I couldn’t care less what the Feench, Chinese etc think of me or my country (but I do find it obnoxious this fabricated campaign to smear the French that people who really should know better have found themselves joining). It’s the betraly of our ideals that bothers me. The constitution is by far the greatest political document ever written. Look at the quality of the founding fathers. Look at their writings. These are timeless documents, intellectual giants. And now I have to settle for Gore or Bush. Read A charge to Keep or Gore’s tract and then read anyone of Jefferson’s papers. You’ll learn more in one paragraph of Jefferson’s than both those moronic tracts combined. How we have fallen. And why? Because our voters are buffoons. They don’t demand intellect (in fact it appears to frigthen them -“don’t trust those smarty-pants”). Clinton delivers a piece of shit speech and people line up to call him the politician of our generation. And the scary thing is that they might be right!!!! Again I ask you. Read Clinton’s speech and then read the Gettysburg address. Aren’t we supposed to be ever evolving in every endeavor?
    Now I have to live under this system where the cows may as well vote for the difference it will make to political discourse, but don’t ever ask me to be happy about it.
    Regarding taking action on its own, it simply depends on the circumstance. I would favor unilateral intervention in Sudan, as I would have in Rwanda. But those were never going to happenen, were they? Why because there’s no strategic interest in most of Africa.
    You keep on with generalities, but that’s not the case here. We had a misguided war and we were in the wrong. I will never join those “my country wrong or right”.

  54. Bill B Avatar

    Michael,
    I have trouble believing that if an investment house was given the same information by EVERY major intelligence agency in the world, (US, UN, French, Russion, English, and even the Swedes) and acted on that information they would lose in a negligence suit. Your “Bush Lied” claim requires us to believe that Bush was so smart that he knew the information (which was accepted as fact by essentially every goverment agency) was untrue and then passed it off as true to get us into a war. Why should we believe this when there is nary an iota of evidence to back this view (and the left has been telling us how stupid GW is anyway)?

  55. Ptolemy Avatar
    Ptolemy

    Fair enough Franky. There are some dumbasses here but they are everywhere and its no good risking you soul feeling constantly superior to them. There is always somebody who can make us feel stupid ourselves. I’ll be the first to admit I won’t jump into a discussion where Praktike, John Moore(Useful Fools), or Denise the Peasant are throwing their facts and arguing capacity at full force.

  56. Reid Avatar

    Franky said: “Yeah in opposing a bullshit war that sent 1,000 of our soldiers to their deaths…”
    Like Franky gives a damn about our men and women in the services. Yeah, sure.
    Franky, when you hijack men’s deaths for your own purposes, you dishonor them. Indeed, you have doubly betrayed our soldiers, firstly by giving the people shooting at them a rationale to continue fighting in hopes of achieving a victory that they cannot achieve by arms and, secondly by presuming to speak for those who have died. That is just stunningly, loathsomely low.
    Our soldiers are professionals who do a dangerous job willingly. Most of them would prefer that you just get out of the way and let them take care of business, quit giving moral support to our enemies and, honor them when they come home.

  57. Franky Avatar

    Oh dear the frothing brigade has arrived.
    “Franky, when you hijack men’s deaths for your own purposes, you dishonor them.” Yeah I’m to blame. I didn’t want them where they are, you did. You had no intention of ever going yourself, but sent others off to die (That was a simple way to view the Iraq war: would you be willing to go yourself). But I’m the one dishonoring them. They’ve died for no reason related to our national security, their raison d’etre. They were duped as others were that this war was for our security. But I’m dishonoring them.
    “Our soldiers are professionals who do a dangerous job willingly”….unsurprising we should see “willingly” emphasised when this war was unnecessary. Take that sentence apart and see the inhuman callousness that spouts such mud. They’re professional, they’re willing – so basically we can send them off to do whatever we want. They signed up, so they can’t complain if the reason they’re risking their lives is less than urgent.
    And of course there’s the overarching mentality behind this sludge: don’t crticise, don’t question. What a convenient point of principle to possess for a man who has no justification.

  58. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Bill B.:
    Given the totality of the circumstances, even if they relied on facts they believed at the time to be true, the Bush administration failed to make a reasonably balanced presentation of facts thereby misleading

  59. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Franky:
    Fighting soldiers who join the military do so on the understanding that 1) they will risk their lives and kill and destroy as instructed, and 2) the U.S. goverment will exercise the best judgment and diligent careful prudence in their use of the military. In the present case, Bush, at best, was negligent and failed at his end of the bargain.

  60. triticale Avatar

    “On “Bush didn’t lie,” I’ll concede that no one but Bush knows whether he lied, was misled himself, or was mistaken.”
    Given the trivial ease with which it can be demonstrated that Michael Moore intentionally falsified evidence in his so-called documentaries, we are not subject to the same uncertainty about him.

  61. Reid Avatar

    Franky – Nobody listening to you spout off has the slightest misimpression that you care anything about our soldiers. You have no right to speak for them, living or dead so, can it.

  62. Franky Avatar

    “Nobody listening” what you speak for everyone do you, Reid? “You have no right to speak for them” but you do? You who volunteered them to their wasted deaths? Of course it would require some moral character for you to even reflect on that.
    First off, you say don’t criticise, then you reply “can it”. If I wanted to write a caricature of a person who couldn’t defend a policy I would write your last two posts.

  63. Sortelli Avatar
    Sortelli

    Well, when Reid says you’re not fooling anyone, Franky, he’s speaking for me.