On CNN tonight: How we’ve changed since 9/11

On CNN tonight: How we’ve changed since 9/11

: I might be on CNN with Aaron Brown tonight (standing caveat: that can change) to talk about how we have changed since 9/11 because the 9/11 Commission report is being issued today (and because I was there).

I think it’s a great way to handle the story of the release of the 9/11 Commission report today: pulling back to get beyond the sniping and even the nitty-gritty lessons to examine what this all has meant to us as a nation.

I’m telling you this so you can add in what you think in the comment. I’ll start thinking out loud here at the same time. A start:

: Fear: The other night, I went to a focus group and heard a woman say that since 9/11, she checks CNN constantly “to make sure there’s not breaking news.” That hit me hard: We’re afraid. When something big happens, it’s going to be bad. It could affect us personally. Let no one tell you that America thinks it’s invicible (not that we ever truly did); we know our mortality now, we can measure our vulnerability and give it a color code.

: Unity: I hope we have not squandered the unity that 9/11 afforded us; I fear we may have but I won’t say it’s too late to regain it. This is why I had such problems with the way the 9/11 Commission comported itself much of the time — looking for blame, finding enemies within — and that is why I certainly had a problem with Michael Moore and Fahrenheit 9/11, finding the enemy atop. This is about us vs. them and we are not the them, damnit.

: Political shifts: On an individual level, I do believe that 9/11 grayed the blacks and whites of politics for many Americans. I certainly see that in blogs, where I find many kindred spirits. I was a liberal pacifist. Now I’m a liberal hawk. I was against Bush and still am quite unlikely to vote for him, yet I refuse to get caught up in the Mooreish conspiracy theories about the other side in politics. On a national level, I’m not so sure. We’re still being portrayed as red-state-vs.-blue at every border. I’ve argued (on CNN, so I won’t repeat myself) that we’re really not a nation divided but a nation undecided. But this is all up for debate.

: Anger: I’m certainly angrier, aren’t you? When I hear the news yesterday that the bastards have captured more hostages and that the head of an American was found in one of their refrigerators, bile rises. It’s all so damned senseless and uncivilized and criminal and, yes, evil. On one of the 9/11 anniversaries, I gave what could be argued was an unChristian sermon in my Congregational church saying that I could not forgive or forget. I just can’t.

: Family: We all hear people say this and I believe it in my own life and the lives of people around me: Family matters more since 9/11. I told you long ago that ever since that night, when I was lucky enough to return home, my children have said “I love you” whenever I leave them. They still do.

: Priorities: We also all heard people say that this would change their priorities in life. Apart from some rich folks who were lucky enough to quit their jobs and go find roses to smell, I don’t think 9/11 changed our individual priorities. Life still happens.

: Patriotism: I never would have worn a flag on my lapel or my bumper. I do now. Bastards tried to kill me just because I am an American so I’ll shout my Americanism.

: Isolation: Are we more isolated in the world? Sure, we are. Some are trying to kill us, others say they hate us, others won’t support us. And what is — and what should be — the American reponse? F’ em. Or at least that’s my response.

: Health: My own health has suffered but that has been because of inhaling the dust of destruction. But because of that, I read stories about the many ways 9/11 had an impact on the health of Americans, from depression to sleep disorders.

I have to run now. Will be back in a bit. But please do leave your thoughts in the comments — thoughts, contributions, not arguments with each other, please.

: UPDATE: Talking with the CNN producer just now, I was reminded of what Bill Clinton said when he introduced the Hunting of the President movie: that “in every hinge point in history we have a fight like we have now…. We will debate as we move to a new concensus about what it means to be an American in a 21st Century world.” That is what is happening now: America is changed. The world is changed. We are all trying to figure out what that means and fight it out as part of that process. It’s not over yet. We’re still digesting the change.

: In the comments, Terry Heaton says:

On the downside, I think our obsession with assigning blame has been heightened. It has translated into a self-serving acrimony that is close to being institutionalized

50 responses to “On CNN tonight: How we’ve changed since 9/11”

  1. Terry Heaton Avatar

    On the downside, I think our obsession with assigning blame has been heightened. It has translated into a self-serving acrimony that is close to being institutionalized — the likes of which I’ve never before seen in my life. Blame has its place in any afterthought, but what’s happened since 9/11 goes way beyond that. Moreover, I think this has expanded to much wider scope, for we’ve somehow convinced ourselves that “shit happens” is an illusion, and that if we just manage things well enough, we’ll all be safe. We don’t trust anybody anymore, and that includes the people down the street, not just those who live in faraway caves.

  2. DSmith Avatar

    One thing I’ve seen, both in myself and in others at work, is that the whole thing is stressing us all out. We’re more distracted, more emotional, more on edge. Many folks, myself included, sometimes have a hard time coping. Even those who are ignoring all this often seem to be doing it from a spirit of desperation. I think this is causing some health problems, physical and otherwise, although of course that’s just my impression.
    I think part of why there is so much heat and noise about pre-9/11 is because we can’t bear to look into the future. There is essentially zero debate on where we go from here (simplistic jingoing and diatribes do not constitute debate). Even the blogosphere is consumed with the past. Nobody knows what’s next and we’re all too scared to really contemplate it, no matter which side we’re on.
    We’ve become disillusioned. In our leaders, our media, our institutions, our “allies”. Perhaps even our beliefs. Maybe even our principles. Even disillusioned with each other. I know I’ll never look at Democrats the same way again.
    It’s all very sad, and frustrating, and anger-provoking.

  3. DSmith Avatar

    And I was a Democrat my entire life until 9/11.
    Some folks just need a really loud alarm clock.

  4. Trent Avatar

    DSmith, what happened on 9/11 that made you stop being a Democrat? Certainly you don’t mean that you turned into a Republican, do you? Let’s remember our history and look at the GOP reaction to Clinton launching cruise missiles at terrorists.

  5. norm Avatar

    We need to stop and reflect on why the world hates us. People dont fly into buildings and give up their lives because someone told them to. Freedom is more important than security. Everyday we give up a little more.
    9/11 is not something that can happen every day. It was a lucky shot. We can’t stop being Americans because of it. 9/11 was all of our faults.

  6. Len Tavernetti Avatar
    Len Tavernetti

    At the end of the Cold War we were left standing as the biggest kid on the block. We didn’t want to be the biggest kid on the block and stooped our shoulders to blend in. On 9/11 a little twirp kicked us in the groin because we were the biggest kid on the block. Now we are standing erect, admitting to all that we are the biggest kid on the block and kicking back. As such we are no longer lovable as “one-of-the-gang.” We are having to adjust to being the silently respected biggest guy on the block and foresake being lovable. This is difficult for us to accept.

  7. Sgt Rock Avatar
    Sgt Rock

    You’re absolutely wrong Norm. 9/11 was NOT all of our faults. That’s moral idiocy.

  8. Ebb Tide Avatar
    Ebb Tide

    Jeff, I knew you’d be writing a lot about this today, so I came by first thing to see what you’d be saying, and as usual you did not disappoint. I’ll TiVo your cnn appearance, since I’ll be at work then, I hope you get on and are not pre-empted due to Michael Jackson having plastic surgery live or something.
    In a way, my flip comment about real news getting pre-empted by “non-news info-tainment” is something that still bothers me a lot about our “media.”
    I am watching the live press conference and Hamiliton just took the tin foil off of Michael Moore’s conspiracy theories, but I bet no one will report on that.
    Thanks Jeff for still talking about your experience on 9/11 and for being so candid about your thoughts and feelings. I have learned a lot from reading your blog.

  9. shark Avatar

    Isolation: Are we more isolated in the world? Sure, we are. Some are trying to kill us, others say they hate us, others won’t support us. And what is — and what should be — the American reponse? F’ em. Or at least that’s my response.
    DAMN RIGHT

  10. Kat Avatar

    Norm-why was 911 my fault? Because I’m an infidel?

  11. MD Avatar

    9-11 was the fault of the murderers who flew those planes and the people supported that evil plot.
    I think (ok I’m projecting, I don’t know for sure) that what Norm might have meant is that in terms of our national security, many people failed. Many administrations, many security agencies and even the American people di not have been pay attention to certain matters in the way they should have. The ‘9-10 mentality’ as it were.
    I remember on 9-11 not knowing who could do such a terrible, despicable, vile thing. That is how ignorant I was and I am thoroughly ashamed of that ignorance. But someone in my department, who was from Turkey, immediately said ‘Islamic fundamentalists. That’s who it has to be.’ He knew right away. Well, I am different now. I read more and more and more (thank goodness for blogs, books and yes, even newspapers). And I, a previous Democrat who didn’t bother to vote too much, took a second look at the Republicans. And I’m sure as heck voting. I don’t assume one group or one party has all the answers. It is possible for good people to disagree.

  12. MD Avatar

    er, it should read ‘did not pay attention’.

  13. Keith Avatar

    I read a great line on an unknown blog a while back… paraphrased as “When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, did we sit back and question why they hated us so much?”
    There comes a point where your interests/values and those of your enemies are diametrically opposed and that is all there is to it. That the Left can’t see that in this instance is both scary and hard to believe.

  14. elzumpango Avatar

    Things have been a rollercoaster ride for me. One day filled with national pride and wanting to join the military myself, the next filled with doubt about our country’s leadership.
    I don’t agree with Keith’s comment about making rash judgements about our ‘enemies’. While their interests and values may be opposed to ours, this does not give us the right to go in and try to flip theirs upside down just because we think so.
    It’s all economics to me really.
    There’s a reason why we haven’t gone in to save tens of thousands of Africans when their crazy ‘leaders’ decide to massacare their own people and loot their own countries. Africa doesn’t have enough oil to make it worthwhile and Dick Cheney wasn’t the CEO of DeBeers.
    I know I sound like a wacko here…. of course I’m exaggerating but I just want to make a point. If Bush hadn’t been so vehement in attacking Iraq and went after Bin Laden and other terrorists instead, he would have had this election sealed. Instead he and his homies just look like a bunch of damn fools.
    Since 9/11, I doubt the integrity of my country’s leadership.
    http://www.hellection.com

  15. Mike Avatar

    sound like a whacko? Give yourself more credit than that, you are one. Did you hibernate during the Afghan war? do you remember the Taliban?

  16. Andy Avatar

    I think 9/11 made us realize that there is a world outside our usual pathways. We are no longer smug and secure. We have been struck and we are wary.
    Politically: One side wants to remain agressive against the enemy. Another wants to believe the enemy has vanished. The safe-secure Vietnam era relationships of pro-govt vs anti-govt are resurrected and re-inflated. The enemy has not been consulted altho they have anticipated this.
    As a democracy, we want to turn away and focus on our small economic concerns. Staying focused on an enemy who hides and is elusive is hard work. It distracts from earning money and having sex.
    Foreign Relations: Nothing changed. France is still bitter over the Executive Life/Credit Lyonnaise issue. Germany and Russia wants to stay focused on their own economic worries. The all too readily dismissed Coalition aka Rest of World remains steady. The only change was a matter of exposure not substance. Those who wish our failure are simply seen more clearly. Those who would share our success and fight a common enemy have joined.
    9/11 was an awakening to their own mortality for many boomers. We, the safe-coddled-smug-secure-whiney, have had our way for 50 years. The world revolved around us. We invented Sex, Drugs AND Rock-n-Roll. We thought we’d live forever. 9/11 showed that death comes by surprise. We were shown that the world does not revolve about us. That there are people, thoughts, and events that do not consider our pleasure.
    Michael Noore, Linda Ronstadt and the Hollywood Advisory Council want to return to the safe-smug-secure world Pre 9/11. They want to live in a world where the American govt is the greatest evil and they are the noble inhibitors by dint of moral suasion alone.
    We have changed. In many ways we are more human, more mortal and less full of ourselves.
    OTOH we still want to live in a world of scientific and economic advancement. Our youth are willing to take up the challenges of growing a global democracy and a prosperous global economy.
    9/11 was the awakening announcement to American Boomers that our days as the center of American Culture are over. We have peaked. The torch is passing to a new generation.
    We Boomers do not go into that dark night quietly or easily. We rail that we are still relevant. That we are still important. That our moral certitude is unimpaired. But we grow increasingly irrelevant to world events. This War is for the young and we are old. This war is about good and evil. We boomers are too compromised to know where to stand.

  17. jon h Avatar

    “F’em. Or at least that’s my response.”
    Jeff, you’re a smart guy. If your goal is to keep “them” from attacking us, you have to ask yourself if all of this is doing that.
    We have to get smarter aboiut this– and Moore and Bush and Cable are the sideshow. Blogs can be the brainpower, if we collaborate well.
    It seems to me “F’em” is a response tragic in its shortsightedness– no less tragic than the original attacks.
    Allowing our emotions to cloud our judgement and brainpower isn’t going to improve anything.

  18. Scott Avatar

    Jeff,
    In this post, you state that you are now a liberal hawk, but that you (probably) won’t support Bush this fall. What exactly gives you any confidence that Kerry will do any better concerning the war on terror? From what I can find, his big solution is to cozy up to the French and the Germans. Yeah, that will stop terrorism.

  19. ostrich Avatar
    ostrich

    Everything will be fine as long we don’t play into the hands of the terrorists, go all cowboy, invade and destabilize the middle east, and earn the disrespect of most of the world.
    If we can keep from doing that, we will come out the winners!

  20. Sydney Carton Avatar
    Sydney Carton

    Jeff,
    You say that our Unity has been “squandared.” That sounds like it was done deliberately, instead of it being lost because of the political shifts you describe right below. Unity will be lost as people wake up and realize that there are people who do believe that it’s Us v. Them, and people like norm who do not. And this realization reacts with the other things you describe, like the Anger. The left is increasingly Angry at America and the rest of America is increasingly angrier at the terrorists and that not enough is being done about them.
    As for me, I constantly watch the headlines now. I turn on the news in the morning to make sure my office building is still standing (I live in manhattan). Every time a plane flies over the City, I’m afraid it’s going to crash into a building. I cannot believe that flights are allowed over Manhattan. I have trouble sleeping too. I am an ardent patriot and have flags everywhere (there’s one in my briefcase that’s ready to use at a moment’s notice, I carry it like I’d carry a gun if the law allowed). I’m certain that the stress from the fear of another terrorist attack is slowly draining me, but I really can’t do much about it. More than anything, I’m afraid that if the left gains power again they’ll deliberately pull back because of appeasement motives and political correctness, making another attack that dwarfs 9/11 inevitible.
    One thing that changed also: I used to believe that the Democrats were a “loyal” opposition. Now, I fear that electing Democrats is a palpable security risk. They and their supporters just don’t care. They either hate America more than they hate the terrorists, or they’re too wedded to the notion of appeasement and self-victimization that America is to blame.
    One other thing: I’m nearly certain that this war will last for decades. This is not a George W. Bush problem. I’m nearly certain that the war on Militant Islam will last longer than the cold war, unless of course it comes to a head and goes nuclear.

  21. John Davies Avatar
    John Davies

    I disgree somewhat with the :Fear section.
    I check the news often, but not because of fear. It’s part of my post-9/11 fighting stance.
    I read political books, blogs, news sites to be aware.
    I also practice my shooting skills. Prior to 9/11 I occasionally shot a .22 as a kid. Now I’m gaining proficiency on shotgun, rifle, and pistol.
    I just wish that I could get motivated to go to the gym more often. No matter how “Terror in the Skies, Again?” turns out, it may be the motivating factor.

  22. Rob Avatar

    Ostrich, you gave me quite a laugh today, thanks.
    “as long we don’t play into the hands of the terrorists, go all cowboy, invade and destabilize the middle east…”
    Because everyone knows the middle east was a model of stability, and always has been.
    Drain the swamp, W. We are behind you.

  23. Lola Avatar

    I find myself paying a lot more attention to what is going on in the world. And I also find myself taking note of what the folks in the party that I registered are doing/not doing, and I’m thinking that any leader of the other side, who has the cojones to do what he feels is best for the nation, even if some feel otherwise, certainly deserves another four years to continue the work to the exent that the next time around that my registered party may get back in power, they’ll have no choice but to follow in his path.

  24. Chris Pierson Avatar
    Chris Pierson

    Admittedly, I just discovered this blog yesterday, so it may be presumptuous of me to add my critical voice to this dialogue between blogger and bloggees, but…
    I take objection to the idea that 9/11 means something, as you put it, “to us as a nation.” The fact that you put it that way, Jeff, has made me angry with the comments here, disparaging to Democrats, liberals and doves, as though what 9/11 has meant is an identical transformation in all people into sour old xeonophobic suburbanite Republicans.
    I’m sorry for what you personally suffered on 9/11 and since, but your transformation was not the only one possible for an American. One might have–as many have–become more aware of what it means to be in the world, to be subject to random acts of violence, to be disrespected as a person because of politics that have absolutely nothing to do with you.
    9/11 did not change the world so much as it changed people. And we did not all change the same way.

  25. Chris Pierson Avatar
    Chris Pierson

    Let me add that I am a New Yorker, like yourself. I wasn’t caught in the ashes downtown, but I did witness the burning towers with my own eyes from midtown and 5th Ave. Just to let you know, not even all New Yorkers were as closed shut by 9/11 as you seem to have been.

  26. Bob K Avatar

    Three changes for me:
    1 – Will never hear a loud noise without a momentary fear of another attack (I was there on 9/11 – took the PATH to the office on Liberty and Bway)
    2 – Priorities are permanently altered – being a father and husband >> developing my career
    3 – Went from liberal dove-ish to conservative hawk – don’t care why they hate us – want them all dead

  27. Rick Avatar

    I didn’t lose any family members on 9/11, but I did lose a lot of friends. And I really believe that in most cases, they would be saddened to see how the day’s events have changed many of us.
    There are people who are so scared of terrorism that they cringe everytime they see an unfamiliar face on an airplane. They obsess about the day to the point that they can’t watch a movie like “Day After Tomorrow” without referencing 9/11.
    It has always seemed to me that the primary motivation for any terrorist attack is to alter our comfort zone. To make us wary, and fearful and cautious.
    I don’t think the answer is to fall back on the phrase “Things are different since 9/11.” Things are the same they have always been. If anything is different, it’s our courage. And we’ve done that to ourselves.

  28. Devilbunny Avatar
    Devilbunny

    It’s been a long, rough road – even here in flyover country. I still clearly remember my visit to the top of the WTC, the view of the Colgate clock across the Hudson, the wavy nature of the buildings of Manhattan (high downtown, falling down to 5-6 stories across the Village and Chelsea, rising again to the crest of Midtown, falling slowly again to the north… it really did look like waves), the outlines marked on the windows of where the CT coastline should be (though it was too foggy to see), and the inimitable Ferris Bueller view straight down into Lower Manhattan. The view of Battery Park, where my great-great grandfather entered this country.
    I think your conclusion in “Isolation” is absolutely correct. Too many people have become too focused on procedure – procedures that, in the end, give little and take much. People who become hysterical over American transgressions while interpreting those of our enemies as evidence that we need to do whatever it is they demand. People too happy to see Americans meet defeat, because they think we need to learn “humility”.
    As for partisanship, I think that shrillness will become its own punishment for the Democrats that engage in it (which certainly isn’t all of them). But what do I know? I’m just a redneck hillbilly war-mongering lunatic from the boonie-sticks of flyover country that must be in the pay of the Bush-Cheney-Halliburton juggernaut in order to espouse the views I do. (No, that was never actually said in that order. But all of those charges have been lodged against me.)

  29. nick foresta Avatar
    nick foresta

    Mr. Jarvis,
    I worked across the street from the trade centers and felt the effects of 9/11 in an up close and personal way. That being said, I think we somehow lost sight of the enemy we are facing. We have expanded the target when, at least in my opinion, we should have done all we could have done to isolate and separate the target. As you say, “This is about us vs. them and we are not the them, damnit.” I think the great divide in this country can be boiled down to the thoughts those words in quotations imply. After 9/11, this country came to the realization that there is an element within the arab/muslim world that will do anything, pay any price, suffer any hardship, sacrifice any loved one inorder to destroy us. They cannot be reasoned with, they cannot be bought with money, they are hellbent on killing as many so called infidels as they possibly can. There is no logic to their pathology. We cannot appease them. There is only one way to deal with them and that is to cut them off from the greater population, cut them off from funding sources, round them up and kill them or imprison them forever. The war in Afghanistan was a neccessary first step in the right direction. Unfortunately, and this is where we part company, our war in Iraq is at most tangential to our goal of winning the war on terror. We cannot kill or capture every arab or muslim nor should we. What we should do is find the guys responsible and those participants that enabled them to carry out their mission. There is no evidence whatsoever that Iraq fits that profile. Yes, he was evil. Yes, he was mean and nasty to his own people. But our goal shouldn’t be some grand design for remaking the world. Our goal should be the utter destruction of the Al Qaeda network and any other group of stateless, nameless terrorists that would follow their path. That has to be the goal. I continue to hold, somewhere in the back recesses of my mind, the fear of that dreadful day. I am under no illusions about the enemy. They are working feverishly to repeat and extend the carnage they wrought on that beautiful sunny September morning. Times like this require leadership, not sloganeering. We are divided not between hawks and appeasers, patriots and anti-americans, rather we are divided between those that feel we are fighting the wrong fight against the wrong target and those who do not. We need a leader with vision and resolve. What we have is leadership with resolve but without the vision neccessary to anticipate the consequences of our actions. We cannot win the war on terror without the assistance and support of other countries. We simply cannot police the entire world. Sure, sometimes our allies can be insolent and boorish but a true leader would have foreseen the day when their contributions would be vital to victory and acted accordingly. The world is not a static place. Our status as the lone superpower will erode if we don’t use our power wisely. The world will find ways to thwart our power if we continue to pretend we are omnipotent. History teaches us that every great military power eventually fades because they take on too much and get over-extended. We are not quite there yet, but if we are forced to confront the Mullahs in Iran, and we very well may have to do just that one day soon, we will be close enough to see that day on the horizon.

  30. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    For your contemplation, three posts and three quotations which seem poignantly relevant to me:

  31. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia
  32. Steel Magnolia Avatar
    Steel Magnolia

    “Our deepest fear is not that
    we are inadequate.
    Our deepest fear is that we are powerfu
    beyond measure.
    It is our light, not our darkness,
    that frightens us.
    We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant,
    gorgeous, talented and fabulous?
    Actually, who are you not to be?
    You are a child of God. Your playing small
    doesn

  33. MD Avatar

    Reading through this thread is helping me to clarify some things in my mind – it’s one of the reasons I like this blog so much. Blame is different from understanding. Blame is a waste of time. Blame, as stated elsewhere, assumes we can stop everything that might be planned against Americans. We can’t. But there are things we can do better. We can always improve and should seek to do so. I’m just afraid all the acrimony and partisanship is obscuring that fact.

  34. Devilbunny Avatar
    Devilbunny

    Nick Foresta –
    I’m not inimical to coalition actions, but if having 30+ nations at our side isn’t sufficiently multilateral because France and Germany aren’t among them, then we truly ought to reconsider who our allies are and aren’t. France, after all, withdrew its military from NATO in the 60’s, knowing that we (and the Germans) would slow down the Soviet juggernaut long enough for them to organize to fight. That’s not an ally; it’s a parasite.
    In the spirit of constructive thought, what would have been your next action after Afghanistan, and why?

  35. Percy Dovetonsils Avatar
    Percy Dovetonsils

    …”sour old xeonophobic suburbanite Republicans”
    Well, that’s a line that draws my reaction – not upon not how 9/11 changed me, but how the post 9-11 reactions of certain individuals and classes in this country changed me.
    There are those who are convinced that the true evil lies within the U.S., and in the “sour old xenophobic suburbanite Republicans,” than in fundamentalist Islam – which mind you, demonstrably has acted and continues to act in the worst reactionary ways. The people who hold these opinions made sure that they were expressed, and continued to be expressed, in the aftermath of 9/11 – as is their right. Actually, their actions helpfully provided a window into their “soul.”
    At first I was mystified by their reactions, then enraged, and am now simply disgusted. I have since changed my habits, my friendships, my voting patterns, and my sympathies accordingly, so as to marginalize these people in whatever legal way I can.

  36. Sandy P Avatar
    Sandy P

    Maybe we’re not afraid to look in the future. Maybe we have, know what we have to do and are still coming to terms w/it.
    We knew what was coming when the 2nd plane hit. We know what we’re capable of and we don’t want to do it. We’ve given them 3 years to get their act together. We’ve waited 3 years for the “moderate muslims” to drown out the crickets. Nothing.
    Until we get over this obsession with wanting to be liked, we can’t grow. We’ve spent trillions trying to be liked and all they do is hate US all the more. They won’t be happy until we’re as miserable as they are.
    I want to live in a 9/10 world as much as the next, but I can’t. I won’t.
    My question to those who want to “get along” is which of your inalienable and enumerated rights are you willing to give up to get along? ICC takes 4, 5 & 6. #2 wants to be taken away by the UN and others domestically. Without 2, what’s left of 1 is gone.
    I can do business w/you, eat and drink w/you, but that doesn’t mean I have to take you home and sleep or marry you. You’re on the other side of the ocean for a reason. And my ancestors didn’t go back for many reasons.
    Let’s face it, if we could build a bubble we would and the world would go to hell and the Jews would be gone. But the world still wouldn’t be happy.
    Parts of “the world” want me gone, I’m not ready to go yet.
    The totalitarian left and totalitarian right are aligning against us. (Can’t be! They’d NEVER work together!)

  37. Sandy P Avatar
    Sandy P

    — sour old xeonophobic suburbanite Republicans. —
    Boy, Chris, are you out of the loop. Sour old are the dems. We’re the party of the young. We have fun, they’re stodgy. Love this “stability” thing, whether it’s the world or government programs.

  38. tibor Avatar

    elzumpango wrote: “If Bush hadn’t been so vehement in attacking Iraq and went after Bin Laden and other terrorists instead, he would have had this election sealed. Instead he and his homies just look like a bunch of damn fools. Since 9/11, I doubt the integrity of my country’s leadership.”
    Huh? We did not go after Bin Laden in Afghanistan? We have not continued to go after Bin Laden since October 2001? As to your integrity point, I think it takes more courage and integrity to do something hard and dangerous and necessary (like knocking off Hussein) than it does to take small steps. If all he wanted to do was get reelected, he could have taken an easier and less dangerous path. Instead, he took the necessary path.
    jon h wrote: “It seems to me “F’em” is a response tragic in its shortsightedness– no less tragic than the original attacks. Allowing our emotions to cloud our judgement and brainpower isn’t going to improve anything.”
    How could not agonizing over the lack of support from France and Germany and a few other countries who would never support the US anyway possibly be more tragic than the murder of 3000 Americans? That’s just offensive. If we had allowed our emotions to cloud our judgment and our brainpower after 9/11, our judgment and brainpower would be obscured by mushroom clouds. And knocking off the Taliban in a couple of months with a few hundred Special Forces soldiers and help from the Northern Alliance involved no brainpower? The brilliant, amazingly telegraphed, one-month campaign to remove Hussein didn’t involve brainpower? Right.
    Rick wrote: “I didn’t lose any family members on 9/11, but I did lose a lot of friends. And I really believe that in most cases, they would be saddened to see how the day’s events have changed many of us.
    “There are people who are so scared of terrorism that they cringe everytime they see an unfamiliar face on an airplane. They obsess about the day to the point that they can’t watch a movie like “Day After Tomorrow” without referencing 9/11.
    “It has always seemed to me that the primary motivation for any terrorist attack is to alter our comfort zone. To make us wary, and fearful and cautious.
    “I don’t think the answer is to fall back on the phrase “Things are different since 9/11.” Things are the same they have always been. If anything is different, it’s our courage. And we’ve done that to ourselves.”
    You seem to be suggesting that we have less courage now. That is patently ridiculous. People may worry more, but they also pay greater attention to their surroundings, to their leaders, to global politics and to their families. To say that our courage has diminished since 9/11 is to suggest that there will ever be another terrorist hijacking where the American passengers don’t take the fight to the terrorists knowing it will likely mean their own deaths. This change in America took less than two hours from the moment of the first attack on 9/11. Don’t forget that the first American attack in the global War on Terror was lead by civilian men such as Mark Burnett and Jeremy Glick and others on Flight 93.

  39. Chris Pierson Avatar
    Chris Pierson

    Percy, I don’t think “sour old xenophobic suburbanite Republicans” are “evil.” I don’t compare them to the Islamist fundamentalist terrorists, who, if anyone is evil, I agree are indeed evil. I am merely stating that closing down is not the only option in response to 9/11. In my opinion, closing down is succombing to terror. If we are at war with Islamist fundamentalism, then we are at war with an idea, and you don’t win that war by trying to kill all the people who hold it.

  40. nick foresta Avatar
    nick foresta

    Devilbunny,
    “In the spirit of constructive thought, what would have been your next action after Afghanistan, and why?”
    Our next move need not be a huge invasion/occupation. Our military should begin the process of re-engineering their capabilities so that we have near instant-strike capability on isolated targets anywhere in the world. What we need to do IMHO, is to find the guys behind the scenes and kill them, be they Saudi Princes, Iranian Intelligence, or Muslim Americans. This strategy may make some of our Muslim friends in the ME upset, especially when a predator drone blows up one of their diplomats but so what? Sure they may try and use oil as a weapon but they need our dollars as much as we need their oil so that strategy will not work for long and a real leader would be able to explain to the american people that this war may require some sacrifice on their part in the form of temporarily higher gas and energy prices. This country would eagerily embrace that challenge. Our military needs to be the shield and our strike force needs to be the sword. It’s a simple strategy. Figure out who they are, find them, kill them.

  41. Yehudit Avatar

    “I am merely stating that closing down is not the only option in response to 9/11. In my opinion, closing down is succombing to terror. If we are at war with Islamist fundamentalism, then we are at war with an idea, and you don’t win that war by trying to kill all the people who hold it.”
    I don’t understand what you mean by “closing down.” And very few people suggest killing all Muslims or even Islamists. But it does make sense to kill the ringleaders and operatives, while at the same time trying to change the conditions which breed them.
    Anyway, “closing down” certainly doesn’t describe our foreign policy or the people I know who think it’s the appropriate approach.
    “Our military should begin the process of re-engineering their capabilities so that we have near instant-strike capability on isolated targets anywhere in the world. What we need to do IMHO, is to find the guys behind the scenes and kill them, be they Saudi Princes, Iranian Intelligence, or Muslim Americans.”
    Well, Rumsfeld has been instrumental is re-engineering the military. No one in the Kerry campaign has the experience or clout to continue that. And we have been doing what you suggest. But that’s only part of the picture. Saddam was actively trying to get WMDs and he was funding and harboring terrorists. What’s more, the UN oil-for-food scam was a money laundering sceme for funding terrorists, and it was killing the Iraqi people. It had to stop. Russia and France’s funding of Saddam’s weapons had to stop. Anyway, what you suggest IS an invasion. maybe you need to study military tactics to find out if it’s feasible to have “instant-strike capability on isolated targets anywhere in the world” without an invasion. I think you’ve been reading too many James Bond books.

  42. Formerly Dan Avatar
    Formerly Dan

    I hear people worried about we are, “more isolated” from the world than before and I’m reminded of what my grandfather told me. “Better alone than in bad company.”

  43. nick foresta Avatar
    nick foresta

    Yehudit,
    “Anyway, what you suggest IS an invasion. maybe you need to study military tactics to find out if it’s feasible to have “instant-strike capability on isolated targets anywhere in the world”
    It may be an invasion but it’s not an occupation. Get in, get the target, get out. Why is that an impossible task for our military? We have bases in Kuwait, Air Craft Carriers in the Persian Gulf, Predators roaming Afghanistan and Iraq, why couldn’t configure some of those assets to respond within hours or minutes when targets become available? Maybe you should study military tactics. The military is adaptable. They learn from every engagement. If you think they haven’t learned from the events of 9/11 and the two ensuing wars, you’re wrong.
    “Well, Rumsfeld has been instrumental is re-engineering the military. No one in the Kerry campaign has the experience or clout to continue that. ”
    What’s that? Are you saying that Rumsfeld and only Rumsfeld is capable of being defense Sec?
    Do you honestly think only Republicans can fight wars? Kerry has been active in veterans affairs for his entire public career. He can find a list of potential replacements for Mr. Rumsfeld that will win bipartisan support quite easily. And for all the talk about remaking the military, Rumsfeld’s only real contribution was to field too small a force for the job of occupying Iraq and too small a force for the job of tracking and cornering Al Qaeda’s leadership in Afghanistan.
    That’s why our troop levels are going up, not down in both places and why there is a good deal of talk on Capitol Hill about adding another division to our armed forces. I happen to like Rumsfeld but history will not be kind to his pre-war predictions or his smaller force theology. Certainly not if you plan on occupying a country with that force.

  44. dick Avatar

    I see the posting about how we can’t close down in response to the Islamic fascists and also that what Bush is doing is not the right way to handle this. You seem to be agreeing with many of the Europeans that we have to understand why they don’t like us and change so they do. If so, do it yourself; I am not interested in changing that way. Sitting down to tea with the terrorists and pledging to do whatever they want us to do is not going to solve the problem. That was tried in the 30’s and WW II resulted.
    Given that what should be the proper approach to handling this situation. I grew up in flyover country in a very conservative area. The basic principles from that childhood are that I am responsible for what happens to me. If I let the Islamic fascists attack me and do nothing and then they attack again, then I have screwed up. All you have to do is look at the government actions during the 90’s to see that in action. Now we have a president who says we are not the problem. I think he is right. I think that the young people who are over there in Iraq fighting and bulding and repairing and playing with the kids and building soccer fields and playground and schools and water systems are right. They care. Their answer is to show America for what it is. They have not won completely but they are winning. Libya is getting rid of its nuclear capability. Pakistan has stopped selling its nuclear assets. The nations surrounding Iraq are running scared and trying to infiltrate terrorists into Iraq to keep the Iraqis from building their own democracy. Is that not better than what was happening before? What part of that do you see as being wrong and why? Do you agree with our European “allies” that we need to appease these people? Did you miss their equivalent of “Mein Kampf” when they said they wanted to kill all the infidels? Do you think they were stuttering when they said this?

  45. syn Avatar

    We need a 9-11 commission to tell Americans that Islamic-fundamentalist terrorizing threats, which has been happening since 1979, are for real?

  46. N. WILHELM Avatar
    N. WILHELM

    quote:
    July 22, 2004
    On CNN tonight: How we’ve changed since 9/11
    : Patriotism: I never would have worn a flag on my lapel or my bumper. I do now.
    Bastards tried to kill me just because I am an American so I’ll shout my Americanism.
    comment:
    Dear Mr. Jarvis,
    I have been reading your contributions to the Web-World-Communication for a while now.
    I always had taken for granted that in a job that includes “creative” a fairly well working brain is required.
    I did not expect you to go over to the “stupid side”.
    “They” do not want to kill you just because you are an “American”. This is your misperception.
    “They” want to kill you because their perception is that the U.S.A. are meddling all around the world in things great and small
    with the attitude of the “bully of the playground” i.e. “if you do not do as I tell you to do I will twist your arm to do so”.
    That is their misperception.
    If you would not be working in Publishing your misperception might not be important,
    but as it is this might spread like other misperceptions in connection to 9/11.

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