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Let the sniping begin

81 comments on Let the sniping begin

Let the sniping begin

: In a bit of perfect timing, the Journal this morning has a column saying that if John Edwards is picked, business leaders will go after him as the symbol of the devil incarnate: the trial lawyer (it’s today’s free Journal link):

Tom Donohue, head of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, has made a public vow: If John Edwards is chosen as John Kerry’s running mate, the chamber will abandon its traditional stance of neutrality in the presidential race and work feverishly to defeat the Democratic ticket. “We’d get the best people and the greatest assets we can rally” to the cause, he says.

Other business leaders in Washington have been less public and less precise, but no less passionate. …

None of this is personal. These businessmen barely know Sen. Edwards and would probably find him a far more engaging dinner companion than most of his fellow Democrats — Sen. Kerry included.

Nor is it completely rational. Mr. Edwards’s political and policy views are more moderate — and more in line with business — than those of Gov. Dean, Rep. Gephardt or even Sen. Kerry.

But Mr. Edwards is a trial lawyer. His campaign for the presidency was financed by trial lawyers. And there is nothing that makes America’s CEOs see red these days like America’s trial lawyers.

81 responses to “Let the sniping begin”

  1. Meezer Avatar
    Meezer

    I’m not a CEO or member of the C.of C. but I’m with them on this one.

  2. Mumblix Grumph Avatar
    Mumblix Grumph

    Well, Drudge is saying that it’s Edwards.
    I am absolutely shocked…SHOCKED I tells ya!
    Imagine a multimillionaire (unearned) Democrat picking an ambulance chaser…will wonders never cease?
    Sorry folks, this whole damn election is really starting to get me down. Why can’t we just focus on happy, cheerful things like terrorism and beheadings?

  3. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    Edwards was announced as VP. Ugh…

  4. Walter Wallis Avatar
    Walter Wallis

    The party of the common man.

  5. jacksback Avatar
    jacksback

    John Edwards – can someone please look up what Kerry had to say about him during the debates? It wasn’t pretty.
    Or better yet check our Edwards refusal to take the “foreign leader quiz” on Chris Matthews show. Pathetic.
    The Breck Girl won’t even carry his own state – great choice Senator Kerry, you truly are a great man.
    A couple of billionaire/millionaire lawyers – that’ll get the Mid West and Southern vote for sure – laugh.

  6. anne.elk Avatar
    anne.elk

    Jeff, when you say “let the sniping begin”, your voice doesn’t have to be part of that.
    Remember your 2004 resolution, where you vowed to be less snarky and less petty, less of a rumor mongerer, and more of a uniter, and less of a divider? Now would be a wonderful time to renew your resolution.

  7. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    Kerry in his speech said God gave us only 3% of the oil and the ME 65% and he won’t have our soldiers held hostage for foreign oil. Are we back to that canard?
    In January Kerry said of Edwards “this is not the time for on the job training”. Edwards said of Kerry “I don’t take contributions from lobbyists but he obviously does”. oh well.

  8. djangone Avatar
    djangone

    This is the happiest day in 2004. As to the buzz-kill attempted in the lead, my prediction is no.
    Once Edwards gets onto the national stage, engaging people, splashing bottled sunshine, nobody’s gonna give a rat’s ass where he came from. Take the crossover empathy of Bill Clinton, subtract a bit of the undisciplned braininess, add a little higher moral standard, double the optimism, give him eight years as number two…and we know what our president in 2012 is going to look like.
    This is the guy the right fears. They try to drag Edwardses out of their kiesters all the time, only to discover they’re holding the cardboard version: Quayle, Bush, Mike Huffington, Jack Ryan. The rest come off like surly curmudgeons grumbling something about a ‘new day, hrrrnnnh?! Yeah, new day…’ I can’t wait for that VP debate!

  9. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    This just makes me think more and more, I can’t possibly throw a vote for president this fall, though I will of course vote local.
    Bush/Cheney is evil incarnate. We should never have a president this stupid, and a VP with not one iota of concern for the American public.
    But Kerry/Edwards?
    I think the solution is to flatten DC and start fresh.

  10. jacksback Avatar
    jacksback

    The is the happiest day in 2004 so far. A flip flopper war criminal picks a pretty boy slip and fall trial lawyer. Oh it is just too sweet.
    Hey Angelos: Are you saying that this week Bush is stupid and next week he’ll be an evil genius? It’s so hard to follow the lefty playbook, i guess i need to be included on the DNC fax list. Yawn.

  11. Easycure Avatar
    Easycure

    How is Bush/Cheney evil? That’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
    There is nothing that shows President Bush and Vice President Cheney to be anything other than compassionate men trying to their best in the toughest two jobs in the world.
    Yes, the country isn’t perfect. But it’s never perfect. It certainly wasn’t under Clinton, and it plain to see that the country became weaker through his inaction. Besides, you can’t please all of the people all of the time. And you certainly can’t be a good leader like that.
    It’s clear as the light of day: a vote for Kerry/Edwards, makes the country’s security weaker. And it’s weak enough already.

  12. shark Avatar
    shark

    1) Good selection of Edwards.
    2) Yes, his being a lawyer will be a point of attack. An even bigger point of attack will be his relative lack of experience, even extending to a very short stint in the Senate. In this day and age- that will be a big minus.
    3)The right doesn’t fear Edwards. BUT I still have this niggling feeling Cheney will be dropping out at some point for health concerns. Can you say Rudy Giuliani for Veep???
    4) Will the “party of diversity” ever run a black man for the Presidency/V.P? Dems to blacks: Shut up and do as you’re told! Vote for us and get back to the plantation!

  13. Jackie D Avatar
    Jackie D

    Angelos, I hope for your sake that you never do come face to face with “evil incarnate”. Read Jeff’s posts about his experience at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001 for an idea of what evil incarnate actually does. Way to minimise the murder of thousands of innocents by equivocating a president you think is stupid to the perpetrators of that slaughter.

  14. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    I’m not happy about Edwards, but it’s interesting to see how the conservative attack has immediately changed. Many were boosting Edwards in the final days of the primaries as a way of contrasting with the dour Kerry. Now he’s been selected and conservatives are wistfully opining about Gephardt. It just reflects a culture of arguing in bad faith. You don’t post what’s expedient, but what you truly believe in or don’t post anything at all.
    As to Edwards lack of experience, I agree that a mature, educated population would laugh at such a candidate, but I’m not sure those with Bush-Cheny bumper stickers ought to cite lack of experience as a reason noot to vote for a candidate. Bush was famously ignorant of the world beyond Houston – and I’m sure remains so.

  15. billg Avatar
    billg

    A focused attack by overfed corporate suits ought to do Edwards more harm than good. Most people I know will conclude something like this: “If those folks don’t like him, he must be OK.”
    Maybe the Democrats can arrange for car dealers and cable TV franchisers to come out against Edwards.

  16. HT Avatar
    HT

    It seems to me that the selection of Edwards as the VP candidate just confirms the lack of seriousness about national security on the part of the Democratic party. A one-term senator, with no legislative accomplishments and no foreign policy gravitas, carrying water for another senator who has been on the wrong side of every foreign policy and national security issue since Vietnam, inclusive? In a time of war, no less?
    Of course, they will tell you that it’s not a war on terror, just a matter for law enforcement. Which in itself is revealing and food for serious thought.
    At least this has the virtue of clarifying the issue for the electorate.

  17. pinkie Avatar
    pinkie

    If Guiliani is to run for office, he’d be best doing it without a Bush or a Cheney in the background. He should stand on his own.

  18. shark Avatar
    shark

    I’m not happy about Edwards, but it’s interesting to see how the conservative attack has immediately changed.
    Indeed, the line of Kerry’s attack on Edwards and Edwards attacks on Kerry sure have changed since the primaries, havent’ they ;)

  19. freddie poo Avatar
    freddie poo

    Seems I won’t have to wait till night to hear the pundits diss Edwards–I can get it right here. Lincol, by the way, was a laweyr and a dcommon man. For the good lord;’s sake: does this mean that some business men, unyhappy with a trai lawyer, might even vote for a Republican? wow.
    the good news: if Kerry losses, guess who will be the next Dem candidate? How ould he do against Jeb? Rail on, ye know-it-alls…one simple question: if you knew back then what you now know about going to war in Iraq, would you go if called?

  20. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    For those citing Kerry’s attacks on Edwards and vice-versa, please cite all primary attacks on GW and why they were no good at the time. And GW attacked John McCain and now he’s having him appear in his commercials??!! Good Lord, what’s this world coming to???
    Whatever.
    It was also nice that everyone forgets Bush is just as rich and just as landed gentry as those other two – or WAIT!! Did Edwards make HIS OWN MONEY??? GASP?!!!

  21. Jacksback Avatar
    Jacksback

    Hey Freddie – You didn’t just compare Abe Lincoln to Mr Slip and Fall did you? Pls tell me i misread you some how.
    Oh and the Iraq war is/was 100% right and militarian historians and future political analysts will only cement that idea – i tried to re-enlist, but my age precluded my acceptance, so yes i wd have gone, but since we don’t have a draft, what do you mean “if called”?

  22. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    freddie, if you want your post read, try English. Or at least a decent spellchecker.
    easycure – compassionate? best? Wow, are your standards low. Children, education, lower class, middle class, economy, jobs, all f**ked. In only 3 years. That’s some impressive “best job they can” right there.
    Jackie, I would suggest you start here (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) before you make another post. Yes, I called Bush/Cheney evil. Their myopic view of the nation and of the world is causing damage that will take decades to undo. That however, did NOT mean I approve of terrorism and knocking down buildings. See how that works? Two separate issues here.

  23. shark Avatar
    shark

    And GW attacked John McCain and now he’s having him appear in his commercials??!! Good Lord, what’s this world coming to???
    It’s coming to an end for Kerry, because these ads are noting that McCain was Kerry’s #1 CHOICE….and he’s endorsing Bush.
    Remember, it’s the Dems who suddenly vested McCain with all of this newfound credibility and political capital. And he’s using it for BUSH, in TV commercials.
    Ouch.

  24. shark Avatar
    shark

    For those citing Kerry’s attacks on Edwards and vice-versa, please cite all primary attacks on GW and why they were no good at the time
    Never said they weren’t. But since Kerry is the one who went through the primaries, I can see some of those debate quotes making a nice spot for GWB….

  25. shark Avatar
    shark

    Yes, I called Bush/Cheney evil. Their myopic view of the nation and of the world is causing damage that will take decades to undo
    Angelos, you do know the definition of evil, correct? Do you actually believe these 2 are acting in bad faith, with deliberate and willful malace? You don’t conceede even the tiny possibility that they’re feeling they’re acting for the good of the nation- even if you disagree with those policies???
    Does Bush really equal Hitler to you??!

  26. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    Mumblix – Here, something happy to focus on………….
    http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=280439&lang=e&dir=news
    Unknown Iraqi group threatens to kill al-Zarqawi
    “We swear to Allah that we have started preparing … to capture him and his allies or kill them and present them as gift to our people.” the man said. “This is the last warning. If you don’t stop, we will do to you what the coalition forces have failed to do.”

  27. Trump Avatar
    Trump

    And there is nothing that makes America’s CEOs see red these days like America’s trial lawyers
    We should all see red over trial lawyers….

  28. Kim Avatar
    Kim

    http://www.albawaba.com/news/index.php3?sid=280439&lang=e&dir=news
    whoops…try here

  29. Andy Avatar
    Andy

    TWO LAWYERS SAVE AMERICA!
    Rich lawyers with depth of experience at solving the problems of the poor, the weak, the downtrodden. Two lawyers experienced at making sure that HMO’s and EVIL Corproations pay their fair share have joined together to solve the nations problems.
    Is this an HBO or Made-For-TV movie?
    Is this real politics?
    Millionaire lawyers solving problems sounds an awful lot like the Batman and Robin.

  30. brett Avatar
    brett

    It’s not that he’s a lawyer. It’s not even that he’s a trial lawyer. It’s that he’s a plaintiff’s lawyer who uses junk science to squeeze multimillion-dollar verdicts out of law-abiding companies. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that oxygen deprivation at birth causes cerebral palsy. Yet that principle was the cornerstone of his practice. I hope there is some discussion of this issue during the next few months..

  31. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    I can understand Republican corporate fat cats

  32. brett Avatar
    brett

    Neither. “Tort reform” doesn’t entail putting anyone out of business; in its most common formulation, it caps non-economic damages awarded in personal injury lawsuits. In other words, it limits (usually to $250K or more) the amount of ‘pain and suffering’ damages that can be recovered. Those damages directly influence medical malpractice premiums, and therefore the availability and cost of health care. If they are limited, health care gets cheaper. It’s that simple — look at California. So tort reform helps everyone — except unscrupulous plaintiff’s lawyers.

  33. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:
    “You don’t concede even the tiny possibility that they’re [Bush & Cheney] feeling they’re acting for the good of the nation…”
    Conversely, if you think it’s inconceivable that Bush and Cheney could act out of ideological or self-interested motives irrespective and regardless of what actually good for America, you’ve probably spent to much time in Sunday school and not enough time in the real world. The words “naive” and “unsophisticated” come to mind.

  34. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Bret:
    You been well indoctrinated. They take away your right to sue for damages and collect compensatory and punitive awards, age-old common law practices, and you thank them for it and become their cheerleader? P.T. Barnum words are appropriate here:

  35. shark Avatar
    shark

    Conversely, if you think it’s inconceivable that Bush and Cheney could act out of ideological or self-interested motives irrespective and regardless of what actually good for America, you’ve probably spent to much time in Sunday school and not enough time in the real world. The words “naive” and “unsophisticated” come to mind
    Michael…poor, simpleton Michael:
    I choose to believe that Bush/Cheney are acting in what they feel is the good of the nation. Of course they’re acting within their idealogy you twit- that’s why taxes were lowered rather than raised (for example), because one of the cornerstones of their politics is tax cuts are good for the nation. And they’re acting in their self interest- doing good for the nation most likely equals re-election.
    You’re the unsophisticated one here, looks to me like you’re throwing in with the BushHitler crowd and choosing to believe that those you disagree with are pure evil. DO you mean to tell me that to those you disagree with, you assign the basest motivations? How intellectually bankrupt.
    Don’t lecture me, not with the company you keep.

  36. shark Avatar
    shark

    You been well indoctrinated. They take away your right to sue for damages and collect compensatory and punitive awards, age-old common law practices, and you thank them for it and become their cheerleader
    Yeah! Lets sue for $8 million because the coffee I purchased was too hot! That’s the ticket! Woohoo! Lets sue Mickey D’s because my kid is chubby! Easy street, here I come!! Someone looked at me crosswise and made me sad! SUE SUE SUE! YEEHAW!

  37. Trump Avatar
    Trump

    Or lets applaud these lawyers who drive up the cost of medical care. There’s a reason doctors are starting to refuse to treat lawyers or their relatives

  38. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:
    “DO you mean to tell me that to those you disagree with, you assign the basest motivations?”
    No, I don’t necessarily presume base motives. For example, I’m a Libertarian (a Republican until 94′) who home schools his kids and has never voted for a democrat in his life. But, while I disagree with his liberal agenda and hate to see my taxes raised, I don’t see him as evil or acting out of self-interest — he’s probably just doing what he thinks is right, even though he’s wrong. If fact, I gave his campaign the maximum contribution, $2,000 (GO, anybody but Bush!). I believe Bush and Cheney, on the other hand, are evil.

  39. shark Avatar
    shark

    I believe Bush and Cheney, on the other hand, are evil.
    Well, Michael, thanks for being honest about it at least. But you sound as silly saying that as those who said it about Clinton. I’m pretty sure they were strong in that belief also. In this age of nuance or moral relatavism, that makes their opinion the equal of yours I guess. Woopedeedoo.
    Hitler was evil. Manson was evil. Bin Laden was evil. Bush and Cheney- what was their crime? Policies you disagreed with? The horror! The horror!
    You cheapen the definition of evil.

  40. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:

  41. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Trump:
    “There’s a reason doctors are starting to refuse to treat lawyers or their relatives.”
    I support a doctor’s right not to treat lawyers or their families. That’s a good way for doctor to reduce their medical malpractice premiums — enter into agreements with their insurers not to treat certain groups of people who are perceived as litigious. That beat taking everybody’s rights away.

  42. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Again with the changing the subject… I didn’t say Bush=Hitler. I said Bush/Cheney=evil.
    Bush/Cheney (and Don/John) care nothing about “America” the idea or Americans. The tax cuts were a joke. I initially applauded the government taking less of my money. Unfortunately, these idiots didn’t figure out that the government has to SPEND less too. Especially when we have a crusade costing us 200 billion. So what happens? Local school and property taxes go up to compensate. Unfunded education mandates (No Rich Child in Private School Left Behind) mean decimation of extracurricular programs, on top of the already egregious lack of books, computers, etc. in any but the richest counties. And that’s just one of the “ideologies” that is tearing the country apart.
    Blind religious zealotry, fueling actions that show ZERO concept of domestic or foreign policy, of how anything really works. 4 power-mad men, trying to erase THEIR OWN mistakes of the past (just look at their less-than-sterling CVs), and just compounding them. And what the hell, taking 280 million Americans down the sinkhole with them.
    Evil.

  43. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    It

  44. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:

  45. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent:
    Then why don’t doctors just have you sign a waiver of rights or an arbitration agreement to limit such claims? If they could, would that satisfy you and have you drop your irrational demand for elimination of compensatory and punitive damages?

  46. Scott2 Avatar
    Scott2

    Republicans hate trial lawyers until they want to sue someone. It’s hypocracy, pure and simple.

  47. shark Avatar
    shark

    My responses will be in caps. Please do not mistake them for yelling :)
    Since you asked: George Bush and Dick Cheney mislead us PROOF PLEASE? BECAUSE THE BUSH LIED CROWD HASN’T COME UP WITH ANY YET
    into the unprovoked, SADDAM DID NOT COMPLY WITH THE TERMS OF THE CEASE-FIRE FROM GULF WAR I. HE ALSO DIDN’T ABIDE BY THE TERMS OF UN RESOLUTION 1441.
    unnecessary, BY YOUR LIGHTS. SOME OF US THOUGHT DIFFERENTLY.
    illegal BY WHAT LAW? BUSH ACTED ACCORDING TO THE TERMS OF THE US CONSTITUTION, WHICH IS THE ONLY LAW I GIVE A DAMN ABOUT. REGARDING THE UN, SADDAM WAS ALSO IN BREACH OF 1441 AND THE CEASEFIRE ACCORDS, SO THERE WAS JUSTIFIFCATION THERE ALSO
    and immoral NO, LETTING SADDAM STARVE AND KILL HIS PEOPLE WHILE POCKETING OIL FOR FOOD MONEY WAS IMMORAL. AND IT SEEMS YOU SUPPORTED THAT. VERY TWISTED MORALS YOU HAVE THERE!
    invasion and occupation of a sovereign country, Iraq. WE REMOVED A MISERABLE DICTATOR WHO SUPPORTED TERRORISM. OH THE HORROR!
    And the death, maiming, destruction, utter human misery and unimaginable cruelty of the war has fallen mostly on tens of thousands of poor, weak, defenseless innocent civilians. SPARE ME YOUR LOAD OF BULL. KEEPING SADDAM THERE WITH THE SANCTIONS WOULD’VE KILLED MORE PEOPLE. I GUESS BLOOD SPLIIED ONLY COUNTS WHEN AN AMERICAN DOES IT. OR IT THE FACT THAT YOU HAD TO SEE THAT NASTY OLD WAR IN YOUR PRIMETIME TV, INSTEAD OF HAVING THOSE SAD LITTLE BROWN PEOPLE DIE IN SILENCE UNDER SADDAM. AS LONG AS YOU GET TO SEE YOUR FAVORITE SHOWS, IT’S ALL GOOD!
    THAT

  48. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent:
    While I don’t accept your economic analysis, nonetheless, for the sake of argument, let me say that I’d rather pay the extra costs due to higher insurance premiums than take away little people’s right to sue. You should really reconsider this one, because you are a little person. Don’t be suckered into giving your rights away — the way did with the USAPatriot Act.

  49. shark Avatar
    shark

    By the way Michael, please list those companies in which you have a financial stake, I want to make sure never to avail myself of anything you’ve been involved with. Your delusions may be contagious

  50. shark Avatar
    shark

    Don’t be suckered into giving your rights away — the way did with the USAPatriot Act.

    Please cite in detail- using the relevant section of the act- which rights have been taken away.
    Then please explain why Kerry/Edwards voted for it since it’s so bad….

  51. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    SHARK:
    YOU ASKED, I ASNSWERED. APPARENTLY YOU DISAGREE.
    BUT TELL ME THIS, IF A PERSON DID DO WHAT I DESCRIBED, WOULD THEY IN FACT BE

  52. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:
    “By the way Michael, please list those companies in which you have a financial stake, I want to make sure never to avail myself of anything you’ve been involved with. Your delusions may be contagious.”
    Don’t worry Shark, there’s little chance you making that mistake. You must have money to invest, something I doubt you have much of.

  53. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:
    “Then please explain why Kerry/Edwards voted for it since it’s so bad….”
    Just because Kerry/Edwards voted for the USA Patriot Act doesn’t make it good. I’m not going to go into an exhaustive critique of the Act here, but are you saying that the USA Patriot Act does not take away American’s rights?

  54. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Then why don’t doctors just have you sign a waiver of rights or an arbitration agreement to limit such claims?
    Too bad life isn’t as simple as you. Why? Because as Yogi Berra once said “it ain’t worth the paper it is written on”. Like a waiver would deter some litigation attorney? He would immediately claim the person was under duress or poorly informed, etc. We all sign authorizations with the risks defined to us in any medical procedure. Are there less suits? Forget medical scenerios, whose signing a waiver that they are a stupid driver or won’t sue the supermarket if they slip on a grape? We all pay for frivolous litigation, it effects prices, rents, services and the cost of doing business in all industries.
    They only sensible way to change things is tort reform where litigation attorneys can’t file frivolous suits on contingency fees. Also, adapting as in Britian, a you loose you pay scenerio puts risk into filing frivolous suits which doesn’t exist now.
    If they could, would that satisfy you and have you drop your irrational demand for elimination of compensatory and punitive damages?
    I wish I understood what you are talking about. Did you read what I wrote?

  55. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Shark:
    HERE’S SOME (PARTIAL) TEXT WE HAD TO “ADOPT” FOR OUR COMPANY TO COMPLY WITH THE PATRIOT ACT:
    Anti-Money Laundering Policy:
    … While the United States and other nations have had strong anti-money laundering (AML) laws applicable to certain financial institutions, including banks, securities broker-dealers and investment advisors, those laws have recently been strengthened and extended to other financial institutions including stand-alone clearing firms, marketmakers, customer intermediates and introducing brokers of currencies worldwide. The USA PATRIOT Act of 2001 has extra-territorial provisions which govern U.S. Dollar denominated accounts anywhere in the world and therefore xxxxxx falls within the scope of these laws. …
    WE NOW MUST DO “OFAC” (OFFICE OF FOREIGN ASSET CONTROL) CHECKS AND FILE “SARS” (SUSPIOUS ACTIVITY REPORTS) ON OUR CLIENTS AND COUNTERPARIES — WITHOUT TELLING THEM, TELLING THEM IS A CRIMINAL ACT. MY BUSINESSES LOST ITS RIGHT NOT TO REPORT OUR CLIENTS TO THE GOVERNEMENT.
    TO THINK THAT THE PATRIOT ACT TAKES NO RIGHTS AWAY IS ABSURD.

  56. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Someone mentioned earlier that Mcain was appearing in th new ads. Have you noticed a mafia-like tendency in this administration to have the novices or those slightly apart from the admin bloody their hands with dirty work. Who went to the UN to roll out what can charitably be called misinformation on Iraq’s WMDS? Colin Powell the man known to have the gravest reservations about the whole war. Who have they locked in to getting Bush elected? one of the independent voices of the Republican party, known to dislike and be disliked by Bush. I don’t know what they have on Mccain, but he went down, down in my estimation if he’s supporting this bunch of incompetent crooks for election.
    Both the mccain and Edwards selection have revealed both candidates to be flip-floppers. Of course, the bright lights who support Bush will only see one side of this.
    Sorry got to run. Going to see F-9/11 again…you conservatives are so smart and have worked out that the film is a flop – it’s just that I’ve gone to see the movie 6 million times so boosting sales to the sky.

  57. Harry Avatar
    Harry

    “Have you noticed a mafia-like tendency in this administration to have the novices or those slightly apart from the admin bloody their hands with dirty work.”
    Yeah, the Clinton administration never did that.
    “Who went to the UN to roll out what can charitably be called misinformation on Iraq’s WMDS?”
    France, Germany, and Russia, among others. Remember the 1980s and 1990s? Hello?
    “Sorry got to run. Going to see F-9/11 again.”
    ROFL. Don’t forget your Bushitler Conspiracy decoder ring this time.
    Idiot.

  58. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Mccain on Bush (video):
    http://www.democrats.org/mccain/

  59. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Harry:
    That wasn’t very nice. BTW, what does this mean…
    “France, Germany, and Russia, among others. Remember the 1980s and 1990s? Hello?”

  60. jacksback Avatar
    jacksback

    Shark and Harry – Game, set, match.
    Liberals: Are they good for anything? Well maybe mulch i suppose.

  61. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Harry writes:
    “Yeah, the Clinton administration never did that.”
    hahahaha I knew the day would come. Supporters of the man who said he would restore honor to the Oval Office are now pleading that Bubba did the same. hahahahah. I would place Bush and Bubba about the same level of morality. Bubba’s in hindsight was preferable because he didn’t start unnecessary wars just got blowjobs from horrible interns then lied about it. But who’s counting, right?
    “France, Germany, and Russia, among others. Remember the 1980s and 1990s? Hello?”
    Yes what does this mean? I don’t remember Russia, Germany, France talking of mobile chemical labs (where are those pesky things, by the way? oh right, “Iraq’s a big country”).
    the 1980s? what you mean when you and the other republicans were supporting Hussien? those 1980s? when he gassed kurds and the republicans did nothing? those 1980s?
    The 1990s when he used uhm, uhm no WMDS? those 1990s?
    And just to help you out. Saying “hello” in that way makes you sound like a retarded teenage girl or a reject from the Jerry Springer Show.
    Don’t worry, jacksback has got your back and he looks like a real intellectual heavyweight.

  62. JAG Avatar
    JAG

    MY BUSINESSES LOST ITS RIGHT NOT TO REPORT OUR CLIENTS TO THE GOVERNEMENT
    Since when does any business have privacy rights akin to personal rights?
    Sorry, but I doubt any court would agree that any business has total control over its privacy when the security and safety of the ENTIRE nation is at issue.
    Banks have had to report cash transfers over $10,000 for years. Why are the transactions in your business any different?
    And do you disagree with the reporting requirements that now exist in gun control laws?
    Gun dealers routinely report sales.
    Michael, you obviously need to express your superior wisdom, wealth and knowledge. A little insecure about the intellectual content of your opinions?

  63. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Just for the record, I own fairly large stakes in several small and medium sized companies in the financial services industry…And…MY BUSINESSES LOST ITS RIGHT NOT TO REPORT OUR CLIENTS TO THE GOVERNEMENT.
    michael, the rules in cyberspace are this: you could be anything from a clever monkey blessed with special keyboard skills or a 16 year old(most likely from your ramblings)
    managing acne not “your businesses”. “your businesses” is as fictitious as you from where we are sitting, so shut up about it. you came, you rambled, your bullshit is clearly going downhill fast.
    so far, with only vapid hyperbole, you’ve not distinguished yourself in economics, law or political sciences in your comments. understanding a business requires skill in all three. the passed on effects of insurance premiums appeared to be news to you, a big clue that you are clueless. realizing that you understand the fine points of the Patriot Act as well as you’ve mastered the fine points of tort reform is another clue you are clueless. another clue you are clueless is how you disregard direct questions and i’ve asked you a few now.

  64. gringoman Avatar
    gringoman

    Is it fair to say that John Edwards’ expertise in class action suits is not the sort that could extend to representing US taxpayers with grievances against alleged insititutional super malfeasance, such as the UN’s Oil-For-Fraud ongoing scandal and that. therefore, the other John, Kerry that is, wouldn’t have to worry about certain legal complications as he, unlike the dread Bush, sought to embrace Kofi Annan & Company?

  65. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    JAG:
    I’m not complaining that my business must report, I was responding to an assertion that the USA Patriot Act doesn’t take away rights. It does take away rights, and I don’t mean corporate rights, I mean individual rights — who do you think the company is reporting on anyway? Before the Patriot Act, a subpoena was required, which required a judge or grand jury — pursuant to the Fourth Amendment. But that all is history now — and it’s not coming back, ever. Now, you may think that’s fine, which is your prerogative –but nobody can say that life in America under the Patriot Act doesn’t have diminished individual rights.
    When I said my companies has lost rights, the point was that if you, JAG, happen to open a trading account the firm you deal with could very easily be filing SARs on you without even telling you. If my mother opened an account with me, and I filed an SAR on her, I couldn’t even tell her about it or tell her even if she asked me. If I did, then I’m a felon. Now that is a loss of rights

  66. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent:
    “so shut up about it”
    In the fine tradition of Dick Cheney: Fuck you, and your fucking rules. I’ll talk about my business all I want, whenever I want. Got it, loser?
    With that said, I apologize that my response to your remarks is quite different from my last, rather diplomatic response to your criticism about me mentioning my business. However, my last response didn’t change anything — maybe this is the only language you understand.
    BTW, I suppose if I agreed with your position, I would be okay, but since I don’t, I “bullshit.” And that was a real bulletin on insurance premiums, too. Unfortunately, as I already said, I don’t agree (i.e., reject as flawed) with the analysis. It has appeal insofar as it’s simplistic — for you, I’m sure a plus. I, on the other hand, realize that economic models are a bit more complex than that and cannot be so easily summed up.
    Why are you people in such a hurry to give away hard-won rights? Don

  67. djangone Avatar
    djangone

    I’m still waiting for Chalabi’s dog to digest and leave a pile with the evidence on the supposed UN Oil-for-Food boondoggle. Meanwhile, the investigator hired in parallel by Bremer died in a car bombing a few days ago.
    So far the UN Oil-for-Food thing isn’t much more than Another Thing Ahmad Says. I’m waiting for proof before judging either way, but I’m not going to say there’s nothing there–even if Chalabi’s hard drives containing the goods all suddenly somehow got ‘hacked’ at once, including, somehow, external drives not connected to any PC. It’s not honest fightin’ to use this purported scandal until there’s at least one investigative report, eh? And I mean more than a bunch of stuff echoed around by WND, Frontpage, Freepieland, WaTimes, O’Reilly, Drudge, Coulter, Hannity, NewsMax or the rest of the RNC-associated media.

  68. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Undisputed government and academic data show lawsuits have little — if anything — to do with overall health care costs. According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO-[Republican]), costs from malpractice lawsuits represent less than 2% of the nation’s total health care spending, and the tort reform legislation pushed by President Bush would reduce health insurance premiums by less than one-half of one percent.
    While President Bush has claimed that lawsuits cause “docs to practice medicine in an expensive way in order to protect themselves in the courthouse,” a study by the Harvard University School of Public Health “little relationship between the threat of litigation and medical costs.” Additionally, a study in the Journal of Health Economics compared medical costs in states with limits on lawsuits to states without limits and found only tiny savings – less than three-tenths of one percent. In all, CBO reported “no statistically significant difference in per capita health care spending between states with and without limits on malpractice torts.”
    The White House’s insistence on pushing the trial lawyer myths are designed to obscure its record in other areas that would seriously reduce health care costs. For instance, the Bush Administration’s recently-passed Medicare bill specifically prohibited Medicare from negotiating lower prescription drug prices from large pharmaceutical companies. Similarly, industry studies have found that widespread adoption of the President’s Health Care Savings Accounts “could drive up the annual deductible paid by workers.”

  69. Sortelli Avatar
    Sortelli

    illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of a sovereign country, Iraq. And the death, maiming, destruction, utter human misery and unimaginable cruelty of the war has fallen mostly on tens of thousands of poor, weak, defenseless innocent civilians.
    *quietly bails out of this thread, rather disgusted by this bizarre moral calculous that simultaneously defends both the “sovereign Iraq” and the poor, weak, defensless civillians that were murdered for that sovereignity* You’re a sick man, Michael. I pity you.

  70. jacksback Avatar
    jacksback

    Hey Franky your opponents on this thread don’t require my assistance. You have proven yourself to be …none to bright from the get.
    In fact, there was not a single intel agency that doubted the veracity of the Iraqi WMD’s. Not a one. Thus the notion of chem labs and weapons was not a point of debate – it was a given.
    Saddam has shown throughout his reign that he never, ever gave up the idea of getting and maintaing WMD’s. The fact that he didn’t use them enough for you doesn’t make that fact untrue.
    Tell me what intel agency that you work for to know some things that no one else does. How fascinating.
    *beep beep* – looks like the short bus is here to take you to school Franky, don’t forget your mittens.

  71. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Sorry got to run. Going to see F-9/11 again…
    Franky, you’re back in 47 minutes!! What happened? Your buttered popcorn turn you off looking at Michael Moore’s tonnage, couldn’t write down the movies lines in the dark or had a messiahnic thought that you were needed here now?
    In the fine tradition of Dick Cheney: Fuck you, and your fucking rules. I’ll talk about my business all I want, whenever I want. Got it, loser?
    Michael, read what I wrote, in cyberspace there are no rules. You get to make up your own little bio. And others get to say it is bullshit. You’re too dumb to have a business in my opinion.

  72. Jim B Avatar
    Jim B

    Michael –
    Your partisan blinders are preventing you from seeing the whole story…Or is it just that, like Michael Moore, your story only holds water when you tell just selected parts of it?
    The “non-partisan” sources you cite are bastions of liberal thought – career government workers, liberal think tanks, etc. The “non-partisan” disclaimer works as effectively as when the media claims NOW, NAACP, NARAL, etc. are “non-partisan.” Just because you claim them to be non-partisan doesn’t make them so.
    Besides…we all know the old saying “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” Depending on how selectively you slice the numbers in any given sample, you can make them say whatever you want. So let’s look at the facts on the ground instead:
    FACT: Many doctors are being forced into HMOs or out of the medical field across the country. *They* say that the reason is the high cost of frivolous litigation.
    You believe people who make their living in a cubicle…I’ll believe the people who lived it…I’ll believe the people who lack medical care because their doctors have lost their practices because of ambulance chasers…I’ll believe the truth…But, of course, you’re free to believe whatever you choose…
    Your defense of leaving the Saddam regime in power is indefensible…so I’m not even going to bother responding to it…It’s as scurrilous as it is ridiculous.
    Regarding the Patriot Act, you have a distorted idea of what your “rights” are. You seem to think you have the right to do what you want, when you want, however you want, without any regard for the consequences of your actions. I can understand why you regard yourself as a Libertarian…but you make the mistake of many Libertarians – you confuse the abdication of personal (and corporate) responsibility to the society from which you gain benefit with “having your rights taken away.” In short: you want something for nothing, and the world doesn’t work that way….
    By logical extension of your argument, there should be no SEC – because their reporting requirements take away corporate rights to not open their books – hey, caveat emptor! (A very intelligent attitude for an investor – want to buy some more stock in those financial firms now?). There should be no EPA – because their regulations take away the rights of corporations to dump sewage into your drinking water. Woo hoo…anyone want a drink? I could keep going with more examples, but the point is made…
    I’m not a fan of over-regulation, but your unreasoning objection to the Patriot Act has put you in the position of advocating a return to the “Wild West” where everyone does what they want because to place any restrictions on their actions would be to “take away their rights.” That is a patently absurd position, it’s not about to happen, and the sooner you get used to it the better you will adapt to today’s society.
    The Patriot Act extended to the government the same abilities to prosecute terrorists that it has used for years against the Mafia. I think we can all agree terrorists are a little bit greater threat than a few number runners…There are some other reporting requirements included in the Act, but none of them are unreasonable and I would argue they should have been in place years ago…
    Your position is based on illogic created by blind emotion. It’s not reasoned argument. You can wither those with opposing viewpoints with snide remarks, you can overwhelm them with sheer numbers of posts, you can wear them down until they give up trying to talk, you can do any number of things…but none of those things make your argument hold any more water than when you first posted.

  73. Tommy Pane Avatar
    Tommy Pane

    Mike,
    I’m trying to move through this thread, but I just keep going back to your post…

  74. gringoman Avatar
    gringoman

    THE PATRIOT ACT. I try to keep an open mind. One question for our civil libertarians who obviously see George Bush as a greater threat than the Enemies of Infidels: You cite the theoretical or hypothetical problems. Can you also cite some actual and specific instances of abuse that should give us all pause? I mean, something aside from Jose Padilla, who was wandering around Afghanistan, chatting with the Enemies of Satan and who, it now turns out, was probably too incompetent to nuke Chicago (assuming, of course, that he or the Jihadis would or could ever do such a nasty thing.)

  75. anti-fascist Avatar
    anti-fascist

    Tommy Pane is right Michael sounds like Robert McLelland.

  76. syn Avatar
    syn

    Kerry/Edwards=Evil Class Warfare.

  77. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Class warfare? Some of you seem to forget how damned rich Bush and Cheney are.
    Aand considering all their policies have been for the benefit of themselves and they’re fellow wealthy compatriots…

  78. Michael R Avatar
    Michael R

    Jim B – I can’t believe the “argument” you are making about malpractice insurance. You don’t argue with the stats, you just dismiss them as partisan. You don’t have studies from people you trust, just anecdotal evidence. You know what there’s also a lot of anecdotal evidence for? Aliens and Elvis still living. I’d like to know HOW MANY doctors you actually know, HOW MANY you have actually spoken to, and HOW MANY were actually forced out of their practices by malpractice – anything else is like that SNL skit on O’Reilly: “I see a lot of people here in NYC, this must be the most populous state!”
    If anyone can dismiss statistics as partisan, that means there IS NO TRUTH – only points of view.

  79. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Well, yeah. There IS NO TRUTH, in government.
    Any statistic is manipulable and interpretable, depending on your agenda.
    Ask and reasonably functioning economist, and they’ll tell you that the employment situation is dismal and NOT improving. Ask a Bush admin official, and they’ll tell you everything is hunky dory.
    The number is just the number. The meaning you give it is your truth.

  80. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Jim B:
    Are you saying that pre-Patriot Act America was akin to the “Wild West”?
    Are you saying that publicly filing 10Ks with the SEC is the same as secretly filing Suspious Activity Reports (SAR) on your clients?
    Are you saying that the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), which is controled by the Republican Congress, is a liberal tool?
    Are you saying that if someone feels bad for innocent civilians killed in war is “scurrilous” and “ridiculous”?
    Are you saying that someone who opposed the Iraq war is “scurrilous” and “ridiculous”?
    Whatever happened to the Republicans party that it could change from complaining about the

  81. Prescription Drugs Avatar
    Prescription Drugs

    Prescription Drugs