Clinton speaks

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Clinton speaks

: “I don’t wake up in the morning hating Kenneth Starr. I wake up in the morning feeling sorry for people who believe they are in possession of the whole truth… And I think you should, too,” President Bill Clinton told a large crowd tonight after the premiere of The Hunting of the President. “If you want to be forgiven, you have to extend forgiveness, even to people who aren’t smart enough to ask for it.”

It was an angry — at last — yet calm and philosophical Bill Clinton who stood on stage at NYU tonight, at an event sponsored by The Week, as he lectured the audience about the “historical context” of the film they had just watched. The film was based on a book that connected the dots about the — yes — vast, right-wing conspiracy that tried to bring Clinton down. It rehashed the troopers and Paula “with the hair and the nose” and Gennifer and Whitewater and the McDougals and Vince Foster with the bullet and, of course, Monica and showed who was behind it all. Just watching Ken Starr, that destructive prig, brought up the taste of bile again. But Clinton doesn’t hate Ken Starr, remember. He said that Starr et al “were not independent agents, they were instruments of a grand design.”

I found it odd, maybe sad, perhaps distasteful, no, maddening to see Clinton — whom I admire, let me be clear (or as we say, transparent) — coming out after the rehashing of all that, even if it was done by his defenders. Yet Clinton saw it as an opportunity for a history lesson.

To find “the roots of this,” he started in the ’60s. “The rise of the right in America basically began in the 1960s in all the turmoil over civil rights and the war, aggravated by the women’s movement and the gay rights movement and the controversy over Rowe vs. Wade.” With the end of the Cold War, he said, the right “didn’t have an enemy anymore and needed an enemy and I had to serve as the next best thing. I think it’s really important you understand that.” He kept repeating, “I think it’s really important that you understand,” the prof letting us know this will be on the exam.

He said the “anti-government movement” and the religious right “thought they had found a permanent way of holding onto the White House by characterizing the Democrats as weak elitists… And we helped them, frankly. Our party made a lot of mistakes.” He said the right considered Carter’s victory in 1976 “an aberrational result of Watergate” and that the “anti-government-values crowd basically believes that the most important thing to do is to have the right people in power and concentrate power in their hands….”

But then he want back further. He said that “in every hinge point in history we have a fight like we have now.”

“Our founders gave us a mission… to form a more perfect union. That was both a humble statement and a bold statement. It was humble because they recognized as flawed human beings, we will never be perfect… It was bold because it embodies the 18th Century idea of progress. It could always be more perfect…. But we always fight about this. At big times of change, it requires us to define, defend, and expand the union.”

Now Clinton goes way back. “The personal animosity I engendered, maybe that’s because there’s something about me they just didn’t like… But the time that most parallels that in the history of the country was the beginning of the republic.” When the country was formed, he said, the only things we agreed about were getting the English out and Washington in; we didn’t agree about the national economy or national legal system. “No one had really defined what it meant to be an American.” We debated and grew the union. Then slavery and the union ripped at us; we fought and expanded. Then monopoly business versus government controls; we debated and grew the union. Then the Cold War, then the information age, then the growth of American diversity and a worldwide economy. “The people on the far right have their view and they’re pursuing it as they think they should. We can win that fight because when you look back at American history, we have always decided to expand and extend. So I think you should feel optimistic and you should be very grateful — at least I am — that the American people, every time they get a clear shot and see what’s really going on, they go forward.” This, he said, is what we “will debate as we move to a new concensus about what it means to be an American in a 21st Century world.”

Then, coming back to today, he says, “The reason the last [presidential] election was 50/50 is we haven’t decided where we’re going yet.” He said there is “an honest disagreement in America today.”

Harry Evans got on stage and said we were all assigned 4,000 word essays on presidential politics.

More….

: Clinton’s Golden Rules: “The effort of this was to show that I was bad people. I don’t think we have to show that they they are bad people. We have to say that we’re right and they’re wrong.” And: “I don’t believe we need to get into that kind of demonization. I think the evidence shows our way works better.” And: “They don’t think they’re bad people and I think it’s a mistake for us to treat them the way they treated us, because if we do, then they own us, they turn us into the kind of Pavlovian creatures they turn their voters into.”

: On that conspiracy: “Hilly was once hooted and derided when she called it a vast right-wing conspiracy.” He said that when she came home after that, he questioned only the word conspiracy. “Conspiracies are normally secret,” he said.

: On Susan McDougal: “The star of this movie and my personal heroine was Susan McDougal,” Clinton said — it was the first thing he said after coming on stage — and she got a standing O, just as he had. “If you like what’s in the film about her wait till you read what I wrote about her in the book…. Susan McDougal was a victim of abuse of power. She was simply a political pawn. And there were many more like her.”

: On the special prosecutors: “I asked for the derned thing…. I was such a naive fool, I thought people actually wanted to know the truth. I knew I hadn’t done anything wrong. I lost money in a land deal… That doesn’t exonerate me from the stupid personal — and wrong personal — mistakes I made… All this started when the press said they wanted to know the truth about what went on, they actually wanted to know the truth.” He said his counsel, Bernie Nussbaum, begged him not to approve the appointment of a special prosecutor. He believed Fiske, the first appointee, a Republican, would find the truth and it would be over. But “Fiske was replaced [because] he was too fast and too fair and he had to go.” He was replaced by “somebody who was more results oriented, as they say.” Ken Starr, he said, “saw himself as throwing the infidels from the temple.”

clinton2.gif: On the press: “The mainstream media basically was in the tank with Starr by and large until the issuance of the Starr report. And I give them this: There was a dramatic sea change then.” And: “Media forgot briefly what they did in Watergate. What they did in Watergate was stop an abuse of power… They thought the game was get the President, not stop the abuse of power… But they got over it.”

: On the New York Times: He said he certainly had problems with their coverage of Whitewater and Starr at first but “the New York Times was the first great establishment institution that got it wrong to at least have a conscience. They did finally say that Kenneth Starr should resign.”

: On the new media age: “The press changes in the information age, too.” In the old days, he said, there were three networks and “they all had enough market share… to afford to send older, very experienced, very seasoned journalists to Vietnam and say here’s what we saw… The newspapers had enough money to have a correspondent in Paris and Beijing.. .to write thought pieces. It was a different world. They’re in a much more competitive world today and the lines between all media are being merged and the traditional lines between news and advocacy are being blurred.”

: On politics and media: Well, the right has radio. But the left has movies. Take Moore. Take this. And, Clinton says, the left is making inroads back into other media. “Look at what MoveOn.org did this year. Look at what Air America is doing. Al Franken is beating Rush Limbaugh in a couple of markets with that little tiny network.” [Note: Anybody have those ratings books?] “When you’re up against something you can either sit around and whine about it or get up and do something about it.” He said the right used to produce more books but now the left is, and he sure hopes his is one of the big sellers.

: On religion: “What separates us is that we haven’t tried to have our politics driven by religion…. That’s the historical context of the film and that’s why the film is so important.”

: On sanity: Harry Evans asked how Clinton “sustained yourself in this ordeal.” Clinton replied that “most days it bothered me more what was happening to other people…. My friends stayed, the administration stayed, and the American people stayed. That made it a lot easier… I said if I give up on this I will compound my error [agreeing to a special counsel]. When I realized there was no limit to what they could do I realized there was not alternative but to suit up and take the field.”

: On the election: “We’ve got a 50/50 chance, maybe better, that we’ll win the White House next time.” He said the Congress may shift to the left but only by a few votes. “I think you need to worry more about the concentration of this right-wing view of government, particularly in the courts….”

: I didn’t go to the after-party. Nor did I get to hobnob with celebs, though I did see Salman Rushdie and Mike Myers and seats reserved for Uma Thurman, Glenn Close, and Moby. It’s late. Notebook’s empty. Good night.

: UPDATE: The AP report on the event; not much there. Roger Friedman’s FoxNews column on the event. Newsday review of the flick here.

: UPDATE: Micah Sifry does not partake of Clinton nostalgia. Way doesn’t.

84 responses to “Clinton speaks”

  1. Sam Avatar

    He’s still such a brilliant man. A+

  2. anne.elk Avatar
    anne.elk

    Thank you for posting this.

  3. chuck Avatar

    Yep, I voted for the guy twice, and the whitewater stuff was just harassment. But the whole Monica thing was stupid, I mean, totally moronic. I’m talking about you Bill. The man had the judgement of a gerbil.

  4. keef Avatar

    Nice writeup — thanks.
    You wrote:
    Al Franken is beating Rush Limbaugh in a couple of markets with that little tiny network.” [Note: Anybody have those ratings books?]
    From the St. Paul Pioneer Press:
    http://tinyurl.com/ywoth
    “The “trend numbers” he referred to

  5. Joe Gandelman Avatar

    Jeff: This was one of the best posts I’ve ever read on a blog, not because of it’s subject…but I felt like I was there in the room. I did a very brief “pointer” item on my blog…because your post speaks totally for itself (with a little help from Clinton of course)

  6. Andrea Harris Avatar

    “The personal animosity I engendered, maybe that’s because there’s something about me they just didn’t like…”
    You don’t say.

  7. RD Avatar

    I’m sorry Bill, terribly sorry. All those horrible things I thought of you – the sleaze, the stonewalling, the fake sincerity, the poll watching. Never having met you, I got all my views from the press. I never believed for a moment that they would misrepresent all the wonderful, well intended deeds of yours. Please forgive me Bill. You’re a saint. I know that now. Can I, I mean, please if you will, can I just touch you. You see, I have this malady. And if I could just touch you…

  8. Mumblix Grumph Avatar
    Mumblix Grumph

    Ohh…darn that mean ol’ Ken Starr…how DARE he do his job? Why didn’t we appoint Inspector Cleuseau?
    Seriously, folks. It wasn’t “just about sex”. It was about PERJURY…I know sex is easier to spell and define than perjury, but I’m sure you English majors in the press can still remember how to use a dictionary.
    I wonder, when a marginally talented person sells their soul to the Devil for fame, money or power like Clinton, Fred Durst, Eminem or Madonna, how do they get in touch with Old Scratch? Is there a website, a 900 number, what?

  9. Mike Avatar

    Good Post.
    However….This is a subject that needs a few more years before I can seriously look at it again. I was way tired of it in the ’90s and I am not yet up to it. Does anyone else think the whole Starr/Clinton thing needs a longer break?

  10. Cris Avatar

    yes Mike, a lot of people think it needs a longer break. Unfortunately Bill Clinton does not.

  11. Sharp as a Marble Avatar

    The one thing I will give Clinton credit on is that he could sell a deep freezer to an eskimo. I wish we could have had him on board for the Iraq war as the voice of America. Grance and Fermany would have been 100% for it had Clinton delivered the speech instead of President Fumbletongue.

  12. mm Avatar

    Mumblix, to put it in its proper context, it was perjury about sex. Indeed, a terrible thing. Shocking. Inexcusable. Impeachable.
    Now….back to Bush and current events……….

  13. Kim Avatar

    Wow! What a great post. I felt like the proverbial fly on the wall.

  14. Sissy Willis Avatar

    As always, too many words, too little time. We lost interest about one third of the way through. Always all about Bill, though: You can count on that:
    “The purple badge of “honor”
    http://sisu.typepad.com/sisu/2004/06/the_purple_badg_3.html

  15. Andy Avatar

    Nothing bad is ever his fault. The same people who find Bill did nothing wrong are the ones who keep asking for Bush to apologize for failure to be prescient.
    Bill could have been great. He chose to be mediocre. Now he chooses to forgive those who are too stupid to ask for forgiveness. He forgives everyone who does not know they need to ask for it.
    Great report. CBS will not have this report or this perspective. Thank You.

  16. billg Avatar

    Great post!. Thanks for sharing.
    Regardless of their opinion about Clinton, does anyone really think the current incumbent could speak in a manner that shows so much evidence of actually understanding and thinking about this country and its history?
    He’s right that the right-wing conspiracy isn’t much of a secret. It’s been out in the open for a long time: They have an agenda to compel every American to adhere to their own moral and religous ideology, using the full force of the law when necessary. If they don’t think it’s “right”, they want to stop you from doing it. An American theocracy is their target.

  17. Jos Bleau Avatar
    Jos Bleau

    Although talks like this will sell his book and fire up the base, this will be a huge mistake for Clinton if he keeps it up.
    Even if you can blame all the mud on your enemies, you can’t crawl back into a pigsty and come looking like anything but a pig.
    More and more of my mainstream Democratic friends are describing the Clinton presidency with just two words: squandered opportunities.
    He should be concentrating on moving his party and the nation in a positive direction, and not feeling sorry for himself or settling scores with the VRWC.

  18. MPF Avatar

    It is an interesting exercise to view the Clinton era through the lens of 9/11. Recall that the zeitgeist was focused on Madonna and Brittney and sex with astonishingly naive fresh-out-of-college interns named Monica or Chandra who saved cumstained clothing as mementos. Compared to the hard realities of the present situation, that entire period strikes me as one long, amusing distraction.
    I agree with everyone else above who concluded that it is just too soon to assess this guy in a historical sense, but in terms of entertainment, he gets a 10 out of 10 no matter what year it is. I voted for him twice and I don’t regret either vote based on what I knew at the time. That said, I’m pretty sure I’m not the only Clinton voter who was deeply disappointed in the perjury (and no, in terms of whether it’s right or wrong to lie under oath, it doesn’t matter that he lied about sleeping with a chubby neophyte – the subject of the lie speaks to sentencing, not to guilt). That said, I still like the guy, however condescending and unrepentant he is sometimes. He did and does care about the well-being of all of his fellow citizens. As we saw in the genuine outpouring for RR last week, that matters. A lot.
    That said, in the world of 9/12, I’m afraid we won’t see anything like that period again (compelling yet silly) for a very long time. I miss being fascinated by Bubba’s love triangle(s) as opposed to knowing that we are in the crosshairs everyday of people who want to destroy the republic because of sheer, all-consuming hatred of America (Islamists don’t check your voter registration card before they try to blow you and your family to hell).

  19. Andy Avatar

    Billg
    Was there ever a “Left Wing Conspiracy” or are they above all of that?
    Clinton is smooth. He had the skills to take the country anywhere. He wanted to BE President merely as a bird wants the highest perch. He had nowhere he wanted to lead us. Then he got careless and arrogant. He is still arrogant.
    Bush started out as an average President, a demi-Reagan, with tax cuts, shrink govt and bolster military. Then 9/11 came and he responded.
    “Do the Times Make the Man or does the Man Make the Times?” is an old saw about leadership and events. Some pursue greatness all their life while others have it thrust upon them.
    I must be one of those “Too Stupid To Ask Forgiveness”, since I prefer plain speaking short sentences vs long sweet songs of seduction with my meanings returned in the spaces between the words.

  20. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    So are we to infer that all of his ex-bimbos and female victims, the ones that turned on him, were registered Republicans, part of the “vast right-wing conspiracy”? Typical smarmy “I didn’t have sex with that woman” Clinton. He and his fans still don’t get that it was lying under oath in a deposition, that would have sent the common slob to jail, that impeached him and dis-barred him in Arkansas. His classless and vicious description of Paula(whom he settled with, an admission in itself) “with the hair and the nose” reveals the creep he is.

  21. Scott Avatar

    Does anyone believe that, if Clinton had been president when the September 11th attacks were launched, that Al Qaeda would be STRONGER today than they were three years ago?
    Hell, same thing with Gore.
    We have an administration that criminally tossed aside world sentiment to fulfill their own agendas, resulting in a hatred of the US that will take generations to alleviate, if ever.

  22. MPF Avatar

    “[C]riminally tossed aside”?? As if they oozed with love for the US beforehand. Please, please come up with a new mantra. The above spiel was an expanded bumper sticker.

  23. Proud member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.....and we'll keep on winning Avatar
    Proud member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy…..and we’ll keep on winning

    Regardless of their opinion about Clinton, does anyone really think the current incumbent could speak in a manner that shows so much evidence of actually understanding and thinking about this country and its history
    Clinton speaks. Bush acts. Had Clinton acted, Bush wouldn’t have had to clean up his messes.
    This man is a cretin, and aanyone who can admire him is a cretin as well.

  24. a Avatar

    We have an administration that criminally tossed aside world sentiment to fulfill their own agendas, resulting in a hatred of the US that will take generations to alleviate, if ever.
    I didn’t realize not following the wishes of the world was a criminal act.
    This is why the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy will destroy all of you. You on the left are idiots.
    Suffer.

  25. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    billg, I agree with you about the extreme “right” trying to legislate their religion. The arrogance and bigotry of the small-minded biblethumpers is truly scary.
    But you can’t forget that extreme lefters are the same way. They want everything to be a speech code, a hate crime, no one to “offend” anyone.
    The agendas of control from both sides are disturbing.
    Even more disturbing is that the large majority of the people are moderate and near the center, just leaning a little bit one way or the other. But we have real jobs and real lives to take care of. This basically silent majority has no one but itself to blame.
    So what happens is that the wingnuts from the fringes are the ones making all the noise, and of course politician grease the squeaky wheels.

  26. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Hey, Scott, by what metric do you assume AQ is “STRONGER today” than three years ago? Got any facts on their numbers pre-9/11? They sure haven’t got Afghanistan as a playground anymore. Pakistan either. The Saudis are moving on them too. Because they have come out of the woodwork to converge on Iraq and face off against our troops there, a smart move on Bush’s part putting the fight in their neighborhood not ours, doesn’t make them more or stronger. Maybe stupider.

  27. Morth Avatar

    “Does anyone believe that, if Clinton had been president when the September 11th attacks were launched, that Al Qaeda would be STRONGER today than they were three years ago?”
    We can argue about that, but we can’t argue about this: Al Qaeda was vastly “STRONGER” after 8 years of Clinton office. And his administration took no effective action (cruise missile attacks on asprin factories and endless Washington memos and a couple of Powerpoint decks don’t count as effecive action) against it, either.
    The 9/11 attacks were concieved in Afghanistan, it’s leaders were radicalized, recruited and the plot was fleshed out in Europe, and flight training in the US was begun all while he was president.
    (I’m not trying to ‘blame’ 9/11 on Clinton, but any a discussion of what he or Gore would have done in the time after 9/11 has to keep in mind what they actually did when they had the chance to do something.)

  28. Tim Porter Avatar

    Great stuff, Jeff. I bow to your note-taking ability.

  29. HH Avatar

    “I wake up in the morning feeling sorry for people who believe they are in possession of the whole truth… ”
    Clinton in a nutshell. He’s used this “whole truth” line many times before and it’s a way to disguise his utter disdain for truth. There are truth and there are lies and President Clinton mastered the art of telling the latter to anyone who would listen, under oath or not. I really respect you and your blog but it’s difficult to respect anyone who would respect this manipulative, self-serving, yes, sociopathic a-hole.

  30. HH Avatar

    “The mainstream media basically was in the tank with Starr by and large until the issuance of the Starr report. And I give them this: There was a dramatic sea change then.”
    His statements lately show that he’s still delusional and this nails it. The mainstream media hated Starr from the get-go and made excuses for Clinton from the get-go… anyone who honestly looked at the facts of this knows this.

  31. HH Avatar

    “They have an agenda to compel every American to adhere to their own moral and religous ideology, using the full force of the law when necessary.”
    ‘Splain then how I hear so many on the right condemning theocracies and so many on the left making excuses for them.

  32. DSmith Avatar

    “…they turn us into the kind of Pavlovian creatures they turn their voters into.”
    Isn’t that nice? If we vote Republican, we’re “Pavlovian”. No brains, just reaction. Any intelligent, thinking, rational person would of course vote Democratic. Only thoise drooling Pavlovians vote Republican.
    Thanks, Bill. Entirely typical. And an entirely typical example of why this once-staunch Democrat is now a Republican.

  33. AnotherScott Avatar
    AnotherScott

    I agree with DSmith, the reference to a certain set of voters as ‘Pavlovian’ is no way to win over those poor people who don’t have the ‘whole truth.’ Furthermore, BC’s assertion that the anti-government types think that, ” the most important thing to do is to have the right people in power and concentrate power in their hands….” is laughable and an oxymoronic.
    Putting the ‘smart people’ in charge is just what Clinton espouses. If only those of us who didn’t know the ‘whole truth’ would listen to those who do; if only we’d let these gifted people lead us, then America would become that more perfect union. Whatever.
    I despise politicians of all stripes, or atleast I find them guilty until proven innocent.
    That being said Clinton gave us NAFTA and Welfare Reform; AND I’d go see him speak, given the chance (as long as it wasn’t for political fundraising).

  34. Susannah Avatar
    Susannah

    I think it is important to remember that the majority of the media is liberal. It was their coverage of him that I watched. I was and still am sickened by Bill Clinton (I have never referred to him as President Clinton, as it would be an insult to those who came before)The man is the perfect example of a fatcat. The Arkansas and then the US taxpayers have supported him for the majority of his adult life. It’s as if he was on welfare.

  35. Markellus Avatar
    Markellus

    Oh, Bill… again…
    He will always be a cracker.

  36. Dann Avatar

    RE: “anti-government”
    He gets it wrong. The establishment GOP likes a fair amount of government to keep competition down to a minimum and to surpress individual liberty where it impinges on collective/corporate priviledges.
    IMO, there is a substantial amount of support in America for “a little less government, please”. That isn’t quite the same thing as saying “no government” or “anti-government”, but Mr. Clinton has always been a bit long on emotion and short on facts.
    RE: Bad vs. good and right vs. wrong.
    It is possible to for a bad person to be right and a good person to be wrong. And while I generally support the idea that we need to get back to the practice of debating ideas rather than people, Mr. Clinton was/is a spectacularly flawed individual.
    Until the liberal response to changes (much less cuts) to ineffective social programs evolves beyond “they want to starve children/women/old people”, I don’t hold out much hope for a return to civil debate based on facts and issues instead of emotional hyperbole.
    Regards,
    Dann

  37. Tom J Avatar

    On the New York Times:
    Mr. Clinton seems to think is has a conscience . . . they will need it after today.
    The headline about the 9/11 Commission report read: “No Queda-Iraq Tie; . . .”
    The article (and the commission report) indicate that there seems to be no collaboration on 9/11, but there were contacts between them, which certainly indicate “ties”. And the commission did not consider the main evidence of Iraq/Queda ties (Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and the terrorist group Ansar al-Islam) because they were not connected to 9/11.
    The NY Times headline is a BOLD FACED LIE, crafted to support their politics rather than communicate the facts. The 9/11 Commission was about 9/11, but the lead headline referring to the commission was about Iraq.
    As an aside . . .why do they care more about naked Iraqi terrorists than beheaded Americans?

  38. billg Avatar

    Andy, I don’t believe I gave Clinton a pass for any of his behavior. I agree with his assessment of the state of American culture and politics. I don’t think the current incumbent has exhibited any ability or willingness to produce a similarly thoughtful analysis, even though, I assume, it would reach different conclusions.
    As for Bush, I prefer to imagine him without 9/11. Take that out of the equation and you’re left with a much different, less forceful, less directed, more ineffective and even more inarticulate leader. The American people will rally around any President in times of great crisis. Bush filled his role very well at that time. But, that was then and this is now. You can’t guy gas or groceries with the flag.
    As for the right: My complaint is that right-wing politicians have sold their honor and their electoral souls to the religious right. These self-declared faithful don’t really believe in democracy. Insteadm the religious right believes it is getting an RSS feed direct from God. Their belief that they know what God wants is the basis of their belief that they have an obligation to force the rest of us to change the way we live to accord with their wishes. Democracy must take a backseat to the will of God as they know it. So, in the final analysis, these folks and Islamic terrorists differ only in the degree of their radicalism and the extremity of their behavior, not in their fundamental faith that their knowledge of God directs and justifies their actions.

  39. billg Avatar

    Angelos: Yes, most of what calls itself “the Left” these days has no more faith in democracy than the religious right. When certainty of belief is so strong that people allow it to justify undemocractic actions to change the behavior of others, then the basis of their belief is essentially irrelevant. The left is as driven by its mixed bag of secular ideology and alienation as the right is by religious principles.

  40. Steve in Houston Avatar
    Steve in Houston

    “As for Bush, I prefer to imagine him without 9/11.”
    But, um, you can’t do that.
    I mean, you can, but it’s kind of insane.

  41. doug Avatar

    So BC rapes as a state AG, has several flings as Gov, paid for by the tax payers, disrespects, that woman, Monica, and you say the right has no honor. No controling legal authority, and it depends on what is is, are not inventions of vrwc.

  42. billg Avatar

    Steve, it isn’t “insane” to think of Bush minus 911. Why should I ignore the things that repulsed and frightend me before 911 when they remain so much in evidence after 911?
    He, or his eventual successor, does not get carte blanche on everything else as a result of his response to 911.

  43. syn Avatar

    “I did not have sex with THAT women” “I did it because I could”
    Monica sucked Bill’s dick and he can even say her name. Listen Bill, her name is Monica and the ‘it’ you are referring to is called sex.
    I do not understand why this does not bother NOW or any other female who supported Clinton. I cannot understand why women would fawn over a man who pushed us to the back of the bus with all the other unmentionable no-names. Uncle Sam’s Plantation at work.
    Under Bill’s watch women’s rights moved back into the dark ages. According to Bill’s words and actions we are all no-name sluts available for the simple pleasure of Bill’s dick.
    At the end of the day Clinton perjured himself. End of story.

  44. Dann Avatar

    billg-
    “Their belief that they know what God wants is the basis of their belief that they have an obligation to force the rest of us to change the way we live to accord with their wishes.”
    And what of those who wish to use government to compel the rest of the nation into acceptance (as opposed to tolerance) of a host of socially leftist positions? For example when the Justice Department used the RICO statutes against a group of abortion protesters…because they organized protests.
    “So, in the final analysis, these folks and Islamic terrorists differ only in the degree of their radicalism and the extremity of their behavior, not in their fundamental faith that their knowledge of God directs and justifies their actions.”
    Nice. Equating Christians who, by and large, would shudder at proffering violence to force their religious views on others (shootings of abortion doctors duly noted and condemned) with religious extremists that regularly strap on dynamite vests and murder innocents or fly airplanes into buildings to murder innocents. We need another Godwin rule to cover your sort of rhetoric.
    The intersection of those two subsets is not congruent with your assertion.

  45. billg Avatar

    Dann, there’s no reason for you to assume that my criticism of the religious right means I support the ideological left. As I said. it is the readiness to condone and support the oppression of others, based on a certainty of belief, that is dangerous. The left wants to control what we do as much as the right. The fact that they draw from different belief systems is irrelevant.
    It also seems to me that when an individual decides his beliefs take precedence over the law, that any of his actions designed to manifest those beliefs is legitimate, then the gap between , say, throwing paint at an anti-globalization rally or at an anti-Planned Parenthood rally differs from hijacking an aircraft only in degree, not in intent, kind, or conviction that your actions are right and everyone else is wrong.
    I am not equating Christians with Islamic terrorists, no more than I am equating Muslims with Christian terrorists. I don’t care what people believe; it’s their actions that are the issue. When people are ready to act outside the law to force other people to act, against their will, in a manner that accords with their own personal beliefs, then they’ve become enemies of democracy. It doesn’t matter what they believe.

  46. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Wow, syn, hat’s off to you for saying it as it is and was. Adding to your comments, let’s not forget his cruel abuse of power in exploiting basically a kid. Monica was a kid. His preditory instincts honed in on her a an easy mark because of her youth. His trappings of power versus immaturity aren’t an even match.
    Note no feminist group’s came to Monica’s or Paula Jones’ defense. Better to sacrifice Clinton’s female victims in order to advance their agenda on abortion rights and whatever those phoney hag’s profess today.
    Ask yourself, if Bill Clinton had sent his daughter, close in age, off to intern for a business mogul or head of state and she was seductively approached in the same disrespective manner what would his reaction have been?
    He’s pure slime.

  47. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    billg,
    “Christian terrorists” in the same breath as “Muslim terrorists”, please, score the body count between these groups? Sorry, there is no symmetry to be found.

  48. billg Avatar

    Onecent: Sure, terrorists who claim to be Islamic have killed more people than terrorists who claim to be Christian (at least recently). Did I say Islamic terrorists weren’t the greater threat? Anyone who kills in the name of God is a bastard. That’s the point.

  49. Jim C. Avatar

    With the end of the Cold War, he said, the right “didn’t have an enemy anymore and needed an enemy and I had to serve as the next best thing. I think it’s really important you understand that.” He kept repeating, “I think it’s really important that you understand,” the prof letting us know this will be on the exam.

    He’s brilliant, all right – brilliant at manipulation. He and the recently revealed psycho Gore are a matched set.

  50. Dann Avatar

    billg-
    If you are talking about the difference between persuasion by individuals and coercion via the law, then I am in general agreement with you.
    That being said, I don’t find the religious right to be a significant problem with respect to coercion when compared with the problem if Islamic fundamentalism. The two are not in the same league.
    Limiting the discussion to within the US, I find leftist extremists to be far more dismissive of individual liberty than anything found on the right. When was the last time a bunch of right wing protesters went around busting out the glass of businesses in a major metropolitan area, locking themselves together to block street traffic, and generally being a bit of a pest?

  51. billg Avatar

    Certainly, terror by people professing to be Islamic is a greater threat today to the U.S. that terror from people professing to be Christian. (I say “professing” because anyone engaging in terror forfeits any right to be described as Islamic or Christian.)
    But that is only a random act of history and circumstance. It is the same mindset that afflicts all of these people that’s dangerous: the certainty of belief that drives them to hold the law and civil society in contempt, to see it as an adversary that needs to be defeated and replaced. Democratic societies cannot survive if they include large populations with that mindset; democracy and a lawful and secualr civil society cannot survive if too many of the people it protects believe democracy and the law are thwarting the way of God and that God has given them a mission to alter it.
    Take away the word “God” and the religous aspect and replace them with ideology and the same thing applies to the left.
    I don’t trust anyone who believes they are so right that they see willing to bring about change outside the law.

  52. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent:
    Regarding: “”Christian terrorists” in the same breath as “Muslim terrorists”, please, score the body count between these groups?”
    Over what time period?

  53. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Dann:
    I find the Right not “dismisive” but downright hostile to “individual liberty.” Bush & Co. is obliterating the Constitution and with it limited goverment and individual rights. I would say that a president that proposes that he have unchallenged authority to detain citiizens indefinately, in isolation, without charges, with “secret” (i.e., no) evidence, without legal representation, without a trial, without congressional or judicial oversight or recource is hostile to individual liberty.

  54. Dann Avatar

    billg-
    Apparently we are still on the difference between persuasion and coercion. In my experience, most Christian, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. are decent people that want to live decent lives without being pushed around by their neighbors. The exceptions are notable precisely because they are exceptions.
    I find your comments regarding democratic society and religion to be most curious. It was religion that motivated people to end slavery in America. It was religion that motivated people to end Jim Crow. It is religion that motivates many Americans to oppose spousal abuse.
    Religious belief is not necessarily incompatible with representative government.

  55. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    I find the Right not “dismisive,” but downright hostile to “individual liberty.” Bush & Co. is obliterating the Constitution and with it limited goverment and individual rights. I would say a president that proposes he have unchallenged authority to detain citiizens indefinately, in isolation, without charges, with “secret” (i.e., no) evidence, without legal representation, without a trial, without congressional or judicial oversight or recource, is hostile to individual liberty.
    I can’t wait for a liberal president to take the reigns of power and exercise that same authority to detain, for example, Christian anti-abortion wackos.
    For the Bush/Patriot Act/police state supporters, your chicken will come home to roost.

  56. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    I was a huge Clinton-basher for eight years. But now, comparing him to George Bush, I’m embarrassed by my vitriolic hatred of Clinton. If I met him today, I’d apologize.

  57. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    “It is religion that motivates many Americans to oppose spousal abuse.”
    WTF?!?!?!?
    One does not need a work of fiction, existing solely as a means of the powerful to control the weak, to know between right and wrong.
    Believe in god all you want, I’ll choose not to. That’s fine. In the end, we’re all dust or fertilizer.
    But the sense of superiority religious people have is 100% unmerited.

  58. ed Avatar

    Man, I read some of these comments and I cannot believe that anyone even thinks to complain about Bush hatred comming from the left. At least Bush is in office and doing things we can complain about. But this was over four years ago people, give it a rest!

  59. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Ed:
    Agreed. At least I’m over my distain for Clinton (see post at 1:08). Although, it’s hard to picture myself forgiving Bush in the future. But, he destroyed the Constitution and individual liberty in the U.S., and unnecessarily caused a lot of people to be killed, most of whom were innocent and defenseless.

  60. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    There is a bronze plaque at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty with the words of Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither.”

  61. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    God bless the world — no exceptions.

  62. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    I would say a president that proposes he have unchallenged authority to detain citiizens indefinately, in isolation, without charges, with “secret” (i.e., no) evidence, without legal representation, without a trial, without congressional or judicial oversight or recource, is hostile to individual liberty.
    You need to educate yourself. Your shallow hyperbole betrays little understanding of the relevant legal facts regarding The Patriot Act which was passed by a majority of Congress incidently. So etch them onto your Bush=Hitler bumpersticker as well.

  63. sligobob Avatar
    sligobob

    At the end of the day, Bill Clinton will be remembered for one thing only: having his dick sucked by an intern in the OVAL OFFICE of the White House. I’ll say it again. He had his dick sucked by a stupid, misled kid in the Oval Office of the White House, tried to cover it up, lied about it, then copped to it, and DID NOT RESIGN. Resignation was the only honorable thing to do. I don’t give a crap what he did in those eight years in office. It was all about him and not the country. And so it remains.
    I voted for Bill Clinton twice. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I have a son. He will certainly study Clinton’s eight years in office in school and there will be considerable hagiography to go around. Bill Clinton will be a constant lesson in dishonor. I will remind him, in the most explicit terms, that Bill Clinton seduced a 20 something into giving him a blow job in the Oval Office of the White House, that he inserted a cigar into the vagina of a 20 something in the Oval Office of the White House, and that Bill Clinton didn’t see anything essentially shameful in that, nor imagine he breeched the public trust, nor think he had desecrated the Office of the Presidency.

  64. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent:
    Perhaps it is you who needs education. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with what I was referring to.
    Granted the Patriot Act is a heinous infringement on individual rights, but is not the relevant legal authority under which Bush imprisons people without charges, trials, attorneys, etc.
    Indeed, that the whole point. Bush “don’t need no stinkin’ law.” He claims the authority lies in the power of the Executive branch. But, that power is nowhere enumerated in the Constitution. Under Bush, the Constitution is no more than an antiquated notion. He

  65. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    sligobob:
    I never voted for Clinton, in fact I actively worked for his defeat. But, I’ll most remember him for presiding over the largest creation of wealth in human history. Apparently, you didn’t participate. (I got rich, thank you.)
    Conversely, among the many things George Bush will be remembered for, e.g., the destruction of American liberty, he’ll also be remember for presiding over the largest loss of wealth in human history. Fortunately, for me, I invested in defense and energy companies and shorted the dollar. I did quite well again.
    As for Clinton’s blowjob, it

  66. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Conversely, among the many things George Bush will be remembered for, e.g., the destruction of American liberty, he’ll also be remember for presiding over the largest loss of wealth in human history. Fortunately, for me, I invested in defense and energy companies and shorted the dollar. I did quite well again.
    Bush masterminded the in tech/internet bubble that started in ’98? Are you for real? The market peaked before Bush took office. Who gives a shit about your alleged stock transactions. Gratuitous information at best. Histrionic behavior at the very least.

  67. h0mi Avatar

    I find the Right not “dismisive,” but downright hostile to “individual liberty.” Bush & Co. is obliterating the Constitution and with it limited goverment and individual rights. I would say a president that proposes he have unchallenged authority to detain citiizens indefinately, in isolation, without charges, with “secret” (i.e., no) evidence, without legal representation, without a trial, without congressional or judicial oversight or recource, is hostile to individual liberty.

    So what does Michael have to say about a president who urges members of his administration to ignore the 4th amendment and figure out a way to search people’s homes at will in federal housing projects?
    Both the right and left have contempt for individual liberty. Neither of the last 2 administrations has a stellar record as the left ignores Clinton’s poor record & focuses on Bush’s while the right does the mirror image.

    I can’t wait for a liberal president to take the reigns of power and exercise that same authority to detain, for example, Christian anti-abortion wackos.

    Anti-abortion wackos were relegated to their own “free speech zones” during the 90s. We now see these ‘free speech zones’ applied to anti-war or anti-bush protesters and I’m shocked.

    I was a huge Clinton-basher for eight years. But now, comparing him to George Bush, I’m embarrassed by my vitriolic hatred of Clinton. If I met him today, I’d apologize.

    I’m often reminded of the similarities between Clinton Derangement Syndrome & Bush Derangement Syndrome. It’s a shame that neither side recognizing how similar the 2 groups look … you’d think they’d stop.

  68. billg Avatar

    Dann, you’ll need to understand that I don’t believe that religion was the primary motivation behind the abolition of slavery and the end of Jim Crow. For some, yes. For others, no. One cannot point to a cause-and-effect link between religion and those events. More to the point, the existence of both slavery and Jim Crow was defended for 300 years on religious grounds by people possessing as deep a faith as those who opposed both practices.
    You also need to understand that I am not making any link between religion and ant-democratic behavior. I am making a link between people possessed with an absolute certainty of belief, in religion or ideology, and the sociopathic behavior that kind of certainty can foster when an individual is convinced that his “knowledge” of the “truth” compels and authorizes him to act outside the law to advance the “truth”. In the end, what these people actually profess to believe is irrelevant.
    I see this mindset developing in some elements of the religious right as well as within the anti-globalization, anti-WTO crowd that calls itself “the left”. Both believe they know “the truth”; both believe they know how history should play out; both believe they must ensure that hsitory moves in that direction and are quite willing to work against American democracy if it will further that agenda.

  69. sligobob Avatar
    sligobob

    Michael:
    Whoa, dude, power is an aphrodisiac? Man that’s deep. Here, take another hit, dude, before your raging ego deflates. Well, you certainly spent those eight years of Clinton studying him very closely, because apparently it’s allllll about you.
    And what do you care if George Bush is destroying liberty? Apparently you are perfectly invested and have profited handsomely from his march to fascism.
    In addition to “How does a fat man get laid so much?” Mao also said: “We should be modest and prudent, guard against arrogance and rashness, and serve the Chinese people heart and soul….” He fulfilled that belief as well as Clinton did.

  70. Ralph Volpi Avatar
    Ralph Volpi

    “I did it because I could.”
    So said Bill Clinton, which is the reason I disliked and distrusted him from the start. ANYONE reading the material available at the the time could see that Bill Clinton simply could not distinguish between his personal desires and his public duties. For him government was simply a way to rise in the world, to be important and powerful. Influence, insider knowledge, pressure, government employees used for personal tasks — he simply did not see why he could not, or should not use them as he wished. After all, “..he could.”
    Even today he is unrepentant, his ode to Susan McDougal is simply a slap in the face of all those who care for law, and good government. McDougal,after all, was convicted of fraud for getting $300,000 from a government program meant to help small business (by the way, has any of that money been paid back?) and who spend about 17 months in jail because she would not answer questions about the missing money and Bill Clinton. When asked she said that the reason she would not talk was becuase she was afraid that the Independent Counsel would convict her of perjery “..if I did not say what they wanted me to….” But how, pray tell, could the Independent Counsel convict her of perjery without first proving that she lied?? Hummmm? In short, Susan McDougal is Bill Clinton’s Frank Nitti, (or Redfield, if you like), willing to sit 17 months in jail for refusing to talk rather than to simply tell the truth, which she said would clear Clinton’s name. A monument to Obstruction of Justice. Its like seeing O.J. Simson’s face being carved into the facade of the Supreme Court Building. Jeesz, the Clinton years are all comming back to me now……
    P.S. Bill Clinton pardoned Susan McDougal on his last day in office.

  71. Dann Avatar

    billg-
    Agreed.
    One day I won’t be so hard headed. [grin]

  72. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Onecent:
    You’re either abjectly ignorant or lying, or both. But, either way, you

  73. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    H0mi:
    When you write:

  74. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Sligobob:

  75. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent, sligobob, Ryan, H0mi:
    Here

  76. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Hey, Michael: you complain about peoples’ comebacks to your drivel not following Roberts’ Rules of Order, and then call them names — “Bushie losers,” etc. And it’s also interesting how people like you like to chant things like “BushCheneyRummieetc. are going to burn in hell” in a rant complaining about, among other things, “Christian wackos.”

  77. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Ooh, and I didn’t even get to the slams against women (“I think women interpret power as the ability to protect and provide, and it

  78. Dann Avatar

    Michael-

    What is known is that he [Mr. Bush] didn’t make it go up. His presence at the helm and his economic and fiscal policies did not cause the stock market to go up, nor did they prevent it from going down.

    The same can be said of his predecessor. Your point?

    (BTW, the stock markets as measured by the three major indices hit their highs in mid-2000, not 1998.)

    Approximately 9-10 months before Mr. Bush took office. So the cause of the decline is stock values was…..???

    Cheney steers non-competitive, no-bid, cost-plus contracts to Halliburton, a company for which his ownership of stock options and deferred income gives him a direct financial stake in the performance the company.

    “Steers”??? And when Halliburton won the right to the same sort of contracts in the late 1990’s?? Was that some nefarious plot by a Clinton administration official or just another case where the company with the expertise and the lowest bid got the job?

    I will admit perverse amusement in throwing it in the faces of irrational Bush/Cheney supporters who most likely have suffered financially under the Bush/Cheney regime.

    The only perversion I see is in your curious form of logic. Similar activities occur during two different administrations and you have your thong in a wad over the current one.
    Regards,

  79. onecent Avatar
    onecent

    Michael,
    If you doubt they happened, say so, I

  80. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Andrea Harris:
    In answer to:

  81. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Dan:
    I’ve no anxiety over the Bush economy — although I can appreciate others who do. Personally, I don’t let my ability to earn money be dictated by who’s president. That’s part of the new neocon culture of helplessness, dependency and victimhood.
    My only point was that, notwithstanding my criticisms, among other things I will remember Clinton for presiding over the period of the largest creation of wealth in human history, and Bush for presiding over the period of the largest loss of wealth in human history.
    Hard to dispute. I can

  82. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    onecent:
    You’re right; I could be anybody or nobody (“a dog”). And I’ll concede that my “back it up

  83. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    It’s not inconsistent for me to mention “Christian wackos” and “burn in hell” in the same message. Just because someone doesn’t see the Biblical implications that extreme right-wing Christian Bushies (perhaps like you) do in the Iraq war, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they are atheists, or even not Christian. In fact, I think these fundamentalist/evangelical Christians hyperventilating about Revelations, The Last Days, The End Times, Rapture, Armageddon and Bush

  84. Michael Avatar
    Michael

    Dan:
    Yes, “steers.” Forgetting about the long list of specific allegations about contract interference coming out of his (VP’s) office, let’s just see if we can connect some simple dots: He was defense secretary before leaving government, chief executive of Halliburton, then back as vice president flush with Halliburton stock options and deferred compensation. Meanwhile, Halliburton gets massive non-competitive, no-bid, cost-plus contracts in Iraq. Yet, you see perfectly innocent, arms-length transactions with nothing noteworthy? No potential or apparent conflict of interests? Cheney’s financial stake in Halliburton doesn’t in any way compromise his position? Just these simple, indisputable facts alone would give any financially sophisticated, rational person a reasonable basis to at least infer that there is fertile ground for illicit self-dealing.