Is a hero a hero only if you like the war?

Is a hero a hero only if you like the war?

: Cori Dauber reports this from Andy Rooney on Imus:

His complaint was with the practice of considering all the soldiers, airmen, Marines, sailors and Coastguardsmen serving in Iraq as heroes. Most soldiers in Iraq, he said, “they’re not heroes, they’re victims. They got trapped in the Army.”

And what about the WW II analogy? There was “no question about the ethical, moral, righteousness of our war against the Nazis.” Today’s situation is “not at all the same.” (Even if you don’t think we should have gone to war in Iraq, I still don’t understand how people can argue against the moral righteousness of the war as a humanitarian intervention. It’s just beyond me.)

But Rooney continued: “They just don’t have a righteous war to fight,” and that’s the only reason today’s military forces aren’t a Greatest Generation. “They don’t have an occasion to rise to.”

Fascism is fascism, and it is always a righteous cause to fight fascism with an appetite for global conquest.

I agre with Cori on all points and, as usual, disagree with Rooney.

These soldiers were not trapped in the Army; they volunteered.

Why is getting rid of murdering fascists in Germany different from getting rid of murdering fascists in Iraq?

And — in the context this discussion comes from, it’s Bush talking about the war on terrorism and not just the war in Iraq — this generation most certainly does have the occasion to rise to: the defeat of terrorism and Islamic mass murderers.

: And by the way, how come when a man goes on a rampage destroying buildings throughout his own town and nearly killing his own neighbors, he’s known as a “nut” while people who do that in Iraq are known as “insurgents?”

33 responses to “Is a hero a hero only if you like the war?”

  1. georgie Avatar
    georgie

    this generation most certainly does have the occasion to rise to: the defeat of terrorism and Islamic mass murderers.
    It would be better for everyone if we could try to refrain from constantly using the words “terrorism” and “Islam” and “mass murderer” together as if they are natural associations. Remember, before 9/11 the largest terrorist attack and mass-murder in the U.S. was by a white, Christian, American citizen. Before that, we were terrorized by a highly-educated, white, christian American unibomber….
    And by the way, how come when a man goes on a rampage destroying buildings throughout his own town and nearly killing his own neighbors, he’s known as a “nut” while people who do that in Iraq are known as “insurgents?”
    Trust me, if he could’ve been anyway connected to Islam by the media, he woudl’ve been labeled a terrorist.

  2. Greg Piper Avatar

    I think you meant “murdering fascists in Germany” in your third paragraph from the bottom. And agreed. Andy Rooney’s novelty wore out long ago, and now he just sounds like an angry grandpa that everyone tolerates but no one likes.

  3. mary Avatar

    It would be better for everyone if we could try to refrain from constantly using the words “terrorism” and “Islam” and “mass murderer” together as if they are natural associations.
    This is true.

  4. Brian H Avatar
    Brian H

    Mary;
    I agree with your post entirely, though Rooney has always struck me as clever and fun to listen to, but this one knocked him down a peg or 5 on my mental staus list. He needs to read the blogs Iraqthemodel or Roadofanation for a month or two, plus the archives, to get some perspective.

  5. Robert McClelland Avatar

    These soldiers were not trapped in the Army; they volunteered.
    Really? So the army asked each soldier if he wanted to go to Iraq or not. Volunteering for the Army is not the same as volunteering to go fight in a questionable war.

  6. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Oh look, another incredibly stupid comment from now-banned-from-Daimnation Robert McClelland. Here, Bobby, to show I still love you I went and bought you your very own clue: when you join the army, you must go and fight in wars. That’s why the army exists. If you don’t want to fight in wars, you don’t join the military.
    Is there anything else you need guidance on, like not breathing while underwater, or looking both ways before you cross the street?

  7. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    “: And by the way, how come when a man goes on a rampage destroying buildings throughout his own town and nearly killing his own neighbors, he’s known as a “nut” while people who do that in Iraq are known as “insurgents?””
    Is it just utterly inconceivable to you, reading histories of occupation in the 20th century, that there would be a sizable minority that would violently revolt? I’m not refering to those working with Al-Qeada, but given the recent polls on Iraqis who want us out now, it seems a little simplistic to compare an individual going postal to an organized group of insurgents.

  8. Robert McClelland Avatar

    when you join the army, you must go and fight in wars.
    Yes, I realize that. But voluntarily joining the army is not the same as voluntarily going to war. So even though these people signed up of their own free will, they do not have any free will to make the decision to go to Iraq or not. Therefore, they have in fact been trapped by their enlistment.

  9. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Ten tons of stupid, yup.

  10. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Hm. You know, it’s amazing — it has occurred to me that Robert is right! See, I just realized that once I make a promise to do something, I have to do it! For instance, I got hired for this job. And they want me to go to work five days a week! And I can’t even choose what I will do once I get there — I have to do the job I was hired to do! So unfair! I’m a virtual slave!
    It must be nice, living in your ma’s basement.

  11. mary Avatar

    Is it just utterly inconceivable to you, reading histories of occupation in the 20th century, that there would be a sizable minority that would violently revolt?
    The sizable minority of

  12. pele Avatar

    I was watching the D-Day commemorations over the weekend and was deeply moved. Heroes.

  13. superfly Avatar
    superfly

    georgie: Tim McVeigh was most likely an atheist.
    What makes you think that Kazinsky was a Christian? Read his manisfesto and find any indication that he was a Christian. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?
    http://www.apostate.com/politics/unabomber-manifesto.html
    Regarding Rooney he makes a major mistake when talking about how our all volunteer force is trapped. Many of the soldiers in WWII did not want to be in the military at all much less fighting WWII. For all the talk about the greatest generation a lot of the members of that generation only joined the military and fought because they were drafted. And there was a big question at the time about fighting the Nazis. Before Pearl Harbor there were mass marches of tens of thousands of Americans in support of Hitler and Nazism and for us to stay uninvolved. Heck, before Pearl Harbor most Americans knew the answer to the question of whether it was worth it fighting fascism: it wasn’t. That is why the war had been going on for years before the U.S. declared war on anyone. Even after Pearl Harbor some people did not think it was worth fighting and one congresswoman even voted against declaring war. And before Hitler invaded Poland the same could be said for the French and British. They did not think Nazism was worth fighting either until they felt they had no choice.

  14. Yehudit Avatar

    Andrea, LOL!
    I think Bobby boy got banned from LGF too…..

  15. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Mary,
    the polls point out that now the majority of people there want us gone, so references to Al-Qeada oppressing Iraqis are not that relevant.
    There is a natural rub of living under an occupyting force.
    What happened to the long speeches we got beforehand talking about the international desire to be free?
    It just seems to me that there’s a massive disconnect reflected in Jeff’s post: people don’t want to live under an occupying force, and they will fight to overthrow it (didn’t we do it some time ago?)

  16. sligobob Avatar
    sligobob

    Hey, Robert McF. All persons inducted into the armed forces of the United States take this oath:
    I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
    Now, I can imagine a couple of fools not listening to the oath they are taking, but it’s no nonsense, straight forward and most likely understood by 99% of those taking it. I don’t see where it says “pick and choose conflicts as they suit me.” And despite the time honored tradition of grunts and the like bitching about their service, every single one I know would say you are a horse’s ass.

  17. Robert McClelland Avatar

    And I can’t even choose what I will do once I get there
    Yes you can. You can quit. Can soldiers quit if they are told to go fight a war they don’t believe is just?

  18. Robert McClelland Avatar

    Is a hero a hero only if you like the war?
    Are the Germans who fought in WWI and WWII heroes? Are the Japs who fought in WWII heroes? How about the Iraqis who fought in the war against Iran? Or in Gulf War 1 or 2? How about the Arabs who fought in the wars against Israel? Are they all heroes?
    If you answered no to any of those questions, then the obvious answer to your question is yes.

  19. Robert McClelland Avatar

    All persons inducted into the armed forces of the United States take this oath:
    Irrelevant. That still does not mean they voluntarily go to fight a war. Unless they are offered a choice between going to war in Iraq or not going to war in Iraq, they are trapped by their enlistment in the Army.

  20. superfly Avatar
    superfly

    Robert if they are “trapped”, then they have no one to blame but themselves. If americans do not want to go fight in a war they do not approve of, they have two choices. 1. Do not join the US military 2. Start your own army in some other country where you make a rule that soldiers only get to fight in wars they like.

  21. ralph phelan Avatar
    ralph phelan

    Robert McClelland is the guy who in this thread on Roger L. Imon’s site stated that:
    “Spraypainting a swastika on a wall is not anti-semitic.”
    “Writing “Fuck Jews” is not anti-semitic.”
    “Writing “It’s the Jews, stupid,” on a 9/11 memorial is not anti-semitic.”
    Jeff, please ban him already. If he’s not sincere he’s a troll, if he is he’s an idiot, but either way he’s a waste of time and a distraction from intelligent discussion.

  22. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Let’s not ban him, but since the conversation has come up here, Robert, you’re way off on this one: spray painting a Swastika is worse than anti-semitic. It’s worse because its supportive of German fascim and within that vile political platform is anti-semitism and a host of other repulsive political beliefs.
    Writing “f- the jews” is anti-semitic. It’s these morons that debase the conversation over Israel so much, and understandably puts many jewish people on the defensive.
    Saying “F- Israel” is an opposition to a government and legitimate. Saying “F- a people” is racist and has little place in any conversation I want to be a part of.

  23. mary Avatar

    There is a natural rub of living under an occupying force.
    It

  24. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Mary,
    Until you or I provide breakdown on the makeup of the resistance in Iraq, there’s not much further we can take this.
    I see the resistance as broken down in to 1) radical religious Iraqis (mainly Shias) 2) Al-Qeada sponsored groups 3) moderately religious Iraqis and secular Iraqis who are fighting against living under an occupying force.
    How would we react if a foreign power who shared none of our beliefs or customs removed a hated government here but continued to occupy us?

  25. mary Avatar

    Franky

  26. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Mary
    Yes, I’m saying they don’t share our values – that’s not to suggest they never will. But we’re in a seriously tribal society, and that inhibits any sort of democracy; the prospect of democracy must be terrifying for the sunnis right now given that they’re in the minority.
    How could Iraqis possibly believe in civil rights? what experience would they have had of civil rights? how can civil rights and respect for the individual flourish when every consideration is: “how can my tribe benefit from this?”
    Think of all the consequences of that mindset: there’s no justice because each judgement is based on the favor disfavor to the tribe, every job in government is distributed according to tribes.
    I’m just staggered when I remember the run up to this war that people seemed to suggest that as soon as Saddam was gone, we could just plunk down a ballot box and leave.

  27. IckyPop Avatar
    IckyPop

    “Why is getting rid of murdering fascists in Germany different from getting rid of murdering fascists in Iraq?”
    Who defines and decides what is “fascism”? How do you defend turning blind eyes to similar tyrannies — China’s blink-of-an-eye executions of dissidents, for example?
    We’d be in perpetual war if we took it upon ourselves to end “fascism” everywhere, however we choose to define it on any given week.
    And let’s not forget the central fact of the Iraq war: We were not invaded. Iraq was at war with no one but its own people (horrible, yes, but not an isolated case in the world and not even the worst). And we were lied to in order to get this invasion started.

  28. Andrea Harris Avatar

    You’re not going to get anywhere with Franky trying to talk reason to him. As far as he is concerned the Iraqis are One People One Voice, a hive mind, they think alike, they are all “tribal,” they share none of our “values” (well, except, inexplicably, or perhaps conveniently, the value of state sovereignty), and so on. You’ll keep telling him various facts — that there are different ethnic groups in Iraq with different goals, that even among the Arabic groups there are divisions, that many of the so-called “insurgents” who are fighting against an evil alien “occupying force” are actually from other countries like Syria — and he’ll just continue to repeat his mantra: the Iraqis share none of our goals, they are tribal, they don’t want us to occupy them, and so on. It must be nice to have a belief system so total that you don’t have to think anymore, Franky, only accept. Accept… submit to the inanity… in the Great Moonbat we are One…

  29. mary Avatar

    You’re not going to get anywhere with Franky trying to talk reason to him.
    That

  30. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    Forgive me mary for wasting your time and more importantly mine. If you had had the guts to respond with such panties-in-a-twist sarcasm when I originially tried to argue with you, instead of when Andrea made another one of her pointless posts, I wouldn’t have bothered responding in the first place.
    I sort of promised myself that I wouldn’t, but if you can’t humiliate the village moron when you want, what role does the village idiot hold?
    So in an attempt to keep you gainfully employed Andrea I’ll respond:
    “As far as he is concerned the Iraqis are One People One Voice, a hive mind, they think alike”
    I mean that’s really stupid when I broke it down even with numbers, Groups 1, 2, 3.
    “they share none of our “values” (well, except, inexplicably, or perhaps conveniently, the value of state sovereignty)”
    So you dispute that. Ok, I await a list from you of what values Iraqis and the US share. (If you fail to answer any of my questions, please do respond to this one – I really can’t wait to see what values you think they share….please, please answer this one…)
    “that there are different ethnic groups in Iraq with different goals, that even among the Arabic groups there are divisions,”
    To describe this as if in my original post I neglected this is just sheer mendacity – I mean Andrea, please, how could the Sunnis be a mniority if there were no other ethnic groups? Anyone who’s interested in seeing Andrea’s credibility should scroll up to see my original post.
    “many of the so-called “insurgents” who are fighting against an evil alien “occupying force” are actually from other countries like Syria”
    OK I provided the evidence that the majority of Iraqis want us out now, so adding to my theory that there will be a consideralbe number who will join the insurgency. I expect figures on Syrian fighters……of course, go cite some white house bod who needs to sell the idea (and needs to believe himself) that really it’s all the problem of foreign fighters – becuase the history of the entire world, the entire world, has shown that everyone is happy to live under occupation and it’s just those damn syrians, hated by Iraqis (of course living apart from them, because they’re hated so much no one in the civilian population helps them) – jesus when I have to answer such stupidity I remember why I vowed not to respond to you and the others here still plugging their ears “There are WMDS, there are links to Al-Qeada”.
    Humiliated. But you’ve only got yourself to blame.

  31. mary Avatar

    Franky – You mentioned

  32. Franky Avatar
    Franky

    The values you cited were civil rights and democracy. They don’t share those goals and the vast majority I feel would probably have little understanding of them – have you ever travelled in the third world where democracy doesn’t exist? sorry to inform you, but people don’t keep a copy of the US constitution under the bed and pray that one day they’ll have these rights.
    Democracy is not a goal for many given the seeming rise of proponents of Sharia law (if you can’t see why the imposition of Sharia law and democracy are incompatible, you’ll have to get someone else to explain it).
    Your posts are repeat “6th century laws” yet you provide no proof that the entire insurgency is made up of fundamentalists. It’s further part of the muddying the waters to deny the fact that the number of Iraqis who want us out is growing everyday: first the only opponents to us were Ba’athists (“dead-enders”), then they were foreigners, now it’s conceded that there are some non-Ba’athists who oppose us, but they’re all religious nutcases (of course it’s never mentioned that our policies seem to have elevated many of these minor circus clerics to national prominence) – it’s the search for any group responsible to explain the massive number of attacks as long as its never admitted that normal, moderate Iraqis could be sick of living under an occupying force and take up arms to get rid of us.

  33. mary Avatar

    You offer no proof that the insurgency is not made up entirely of religious extremists and Baathists.
    The insurgency deliberately targets innocent schoolkids, aid workers, religious worshippers and marketplace shoppers. Do you really think that normal moderate Iraqis would join these terrorists?
    I linked to moderate Iraqi bloggers who despise the insurgents. Here’s a link to a protest against terrorsim that thousands of Iraqis participated in (and the media ignored).
    If you believe that normal, moderate Iraqis support terrorism, what facts and links to you have to back that up?