Bastards
: What more can be said about the evil slime who behead an American civilian? Nothing.
80 responses to “Bastards”
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What more can be said? Quite a lot, I think. I’d like to see at least as much wordage and outrage expended over this as the hurricane of hypocritical hot air produced over the Abu Ghraib incidents.
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Re: Bill Quick
Don’t hold your breath. -
what is hypocritical about the coverage of abuses at Abu Ghraib?
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I’m trembling, I’m so sick with fury. I have never hated, never WANTED to hate, another human being before. But I would be lying if I denied that’s what I’m feeling right now.
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bastards. A kid from Philly is BRUTALLY MURDERED with several slashes to the throat by cowards wearing masks ON FREAKING TAPE and congress wants to bitch and moan about a few ingrates getting piled into a naked pyramid? WAKE UP!
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Where’s the OUTRAGE!!!
The Arab Streets seem to be quiet.
The hypocrits, they make such a big deal of the twig in our eye while ignoring the tree trunk in their own.
Thanks for bring up the subject BTW. -
Thank you, we should behead those motherfuckers, and then we can talk about prison abuse!!!
And, you didn’t get me wrong they are the motherfuckers!!!!!! -
Yes, it is evil. I just don’t understand how people think they can take the lives of other innocent people.
And that would include Americans killing unarmed Iraqi civilians. -
These people just keep teaching me to hate and revile anything connected to islam. They do this daily somewhere in the world and where is the Red Cross, Amnesty, and the Arab street that gets so vocal when a naked muslim is shown. No wonder the young people in Iraq were driven to treating these animals in an unamerican fashion. It is hard ti treat barbarians with respect.
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OTOH, Zarqawi may have just cut his own throat.
Who’s going to side with a barbarian against civilization in the Arab world? -
Well, Loren, then I await with bated breath for Arab media to denounce this decapitation. I await muslims in America to condemn it. I wait breathlessly——but I will hear nothing from the muslim community. I hear they are holding body parts of dead Jews for ransom. Is there no level low enough that this scum will stoop in the name of allah?
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“To the country boys here, if you’re a different nationality, a different race, you’re sub-human. That’s the way that girls like Lynndie are raised … Tormenting Iraqis, to their mind, would be no different from shooting a turkey.”
To refer to that famous passage from Pogo: “We have met the enemy and he is us!”
When you go to war, it is necessary to dehumanize the enemy and yourself. In this respect, Lynndie was further along in the process than anyone else.
This all will not stop any time soon. Jeff, by calling them bastards, you’re invoking your bastard self. -
Oh, there it is Egger…embarrassing photos of people who are incarcerated for crimes and a brutal beheading of a man who was IN Iraq to bring TECHNOLOGY and modern INFASTRUCTURE their country? Yeah, completely equivalent when you are a moral relativist like yourself.
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Catherine, Berg went there on his own without an employer to provide support services. It probably says a lot about the American economy where people are desperate to find work by any means, even if it means risking their lives in a war zone.
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Yes, Jurgen, let’s blame the American economy instead of the sick religion that teaches one how to decapitate and torture. Bastards is way too kind–there is no word to describe this slime –lower than dung beetles.
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It will be interesting to see whether CBS will air the video, blurring the grisly bits, and whether there will be an appropriate degree of outrage expressed by Arab leaders and the Arab street with apologies forthcoming to the Berg family
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Kat: “Sick religion”?
This is in contradistinction to OUR “healthy religion”? -
A kid from Philly is BRUTALLY MURDERED with several slashes to the throat by cowards wearing masks ON FREAKING TAPE and congress wants to bitch and moan about a few ingrates getting piled into a naked pyramid?
…And you don’t see the slightest amount of cause-and-effect in this behavior?
How many American contractors were getting their heads sawed off before the world found out about the abuse Arabs were routinely getting at the hands of Americans? Wake up yourself, Joel. -
Yes–a sick religion,because it is sick:a virus.
Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q; 2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (Q; 9:123), slay them -
Kat: You’re looking for the demonic, and you won’t stop till you find it.
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“How many American contractors were getting their heads sawed off before the world found out about the abuse Arabs were routinely getting at the hands of Americans? Wake up yourself, Joel.”
Well, an American Jewish reporter got his head sawed off, and several contractors and soldiers were mutilated and burnt, and American POWs were murdered and beaten up.
All while Arabs are NOT “routinely” getting abuse from Americans. They routinely get abuse from each other. We just stopped routine extreme abuse of hundreds of thousands of them at the hand of their dictator and his sons.
Why don’t you wake up? -
Amir, an Iraqi, told me that last week Al-Jazeera never even mentioned that Hamill had escaped!!
I’m waiting for the “Arab outrage.”
*silence*
*silence*
*silence*
*silence*
Thought so. -
I don’t have to look far–I read the koran. And I don’t hear millions of muslims condemning this–instead they’re screaming allah akbar or some such shit.
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What’s bugging me… notice how they’re all HOODED. They make a conspicuous habit of that. And then they complain when the GIs put hoods on them as if it’s a really big insult.
Honestly, I would like to see hoods and masks etc outlawed in that part of the world. There is a KKK ‘masks and hoods’ law in some parts of the US. They should implement it in the M.E. I’m really sick and tired of their hypocracy about this.
Does anyone still remember the first time we all saw the terrorists in the ski-masks? The way I remember it, they were on the balcony and it was at the Olympics when they murdered the Israeli athletes.
And then the next thing in the series that sticks out in my mind was the fatwa of Salman Rushdie. That must have been a landmark of sorts when they rioted in the streets of NYC demanding that we carry out their hit on him. Weird!
And then, of course, there was the strange SNUFF movie of the Ritual Slaughter of Daniel Pearl– as if he were a sheep they were sacrificing on the Abrahamic holiday. There was something Satanic about their ritual with their obsession about blood. Aren’t they getting freakier every year? Sometimes it seems that way. -
At Harry’s Place, david t posts an entry alluding to Dish Sullivan embarking on a campaign to show the beheading of Nick Berg or at least the monster holding his severed head up to the camera. It seems like they implicitly want people to mentally compare the ‘torture’ of nude pyramids with this new gruesome horror. I think that may be too much for Mainstream America.
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They just don’t get it (thank God). To make the US sick of this war, show prison humiliation for no apparent reason. (And I hate that, BTW) To make us resolute, show us a beheading and link it to AQ. Draft, shmaft. Let those of us early retirees re-enlist. No draft required.
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To Jurgen-Javier, who is so expressive of tender concern that Jeff not “dehumanize” these beings by calling them “bastards”:
1. “Bastards” does not dehumanize anyone. An animal, insect, plant, gas, or mineral cannot get married. Therefore there is no state among them that is the antithesis to marriage, which produces “bastards” — ie, what children of unmarried people used to be called.
2. People who can hold a helpless man down and saw off his head as he screams have already done a pretty good job of dehumanizing themselves. Personally, I would not have called them “bastards,” as that lends them a humanity they don’t deserve. And as a bastard myself, I do object. The proper description for these… objects — is “dead, in the very near future.” -
“I’m waiting for the “Arab outrage.”
At least they aren’t defending it like some rubes have done in regards to the Abu Ghraib atrocities. You don’t see them claiming it’s an isolated incident or saying that maybe it was just a hazing ritual. -
What more can be said? A few prayers for Nick Berg, his family, and everyone else who is sacrificing their time, their health, and even their lives striving to make the world a better place.
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No, Robert-they are treating it as a religious ritual and praising allah. And no, it’s not an isolated incident–in the Sudan they beheaded 3000 in one night–it’s a muslim thing.
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Scum. I can only hope that each one that participated in this act is hunted down.
I just don’t think today is the day to push for your partisan points whether it’s scoring off the Bush administration or the Arabs. Let’s just leave it unconnected to any other event, and agree that someone who saws someone else’s head off is worthy of dying himself. -
there is so much hatred in this world. this comment forum is no exception. it is truly unfortunate.
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Michael
What reaction would you suggest to the people, and only those, who carried out this act?
I long ago lost my belief that every life is beautiful and worth preserving. Someone who can saw off someone else’s head is beyond redemption. This is one person who doesn’t deserve to be on this already over-populated planet. -
Kat: surely if Islam is the ‘sick religion’ you say it is, so is christianity and judaism that hold sacred the old testament and its multiple instances of God-sanctioned mass-murder ?
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“Rootbeer”, you might want to look up “Pearl, Daniel”.
McClelland, let me put this as gently as I can: fuck off and die. Twice. -
The perpetrators of this crime deserve to be punished. What they did was horribly horribly wrong. There’s no doubting that. Yet, many of the above comments are misdirected and counter-productive. For example:
” …make me hate and revile anything connected to islam” ; ” …the sick religion that teaches one how to decapitate and torture” ; “it’s a muslim thing”.
Not to mention random and non-contextualized quotes from the Quran.
All this does is breed ignorance, layer bigotry on top of bigotry, violence on top of violence, and admits an unwillingness to try to come to any critical understanding of what is happening. -
Christianity is the teaching in the New Testament. Trying to minimize the atrocities of islam by looking for equivalencies in other religions is scum bucketry of the worst kind. You go ahead and protect these beheaders. I won’t. I drive by a mosque and I see the Daniel Pearl video and that allah akbar screeching. Now I will see Nick Berg. I see islam and terrorism as one. Sorry.
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Kat: If christianity is the religion of the new testament, please ask Christians to condemn the old testament and stop calling it the Word of God. And please ask Christians to stop reading from the old testament every sunday in church.
And even in the new testament: would you agree with the condemnation of non-christians to hell ?
I condemn all of this violence, and realize that these books were written in another time and must be viewed as products of that time.
I speak as a christian. -
{ unwillingness to try to come to any critical understanding of what is happening.} You tell us, Michael. What is happening? Ambon,Kosovo, Armenia, Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Lebanon ,Kashmir, Philippines,
Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Iran,Israel, Spain, USA – there is hardly a country that is not plagued by muslim terrorism. What are all these people doing wrong to piss off allah? Do they all deserve to die like the victims of 911? Let’s quit making excuses for them. I want them held accountable. Respect is earned, not demanded. There is not much about islam that warrants my respect these days. I am sick and tired of atrocity after atrocity being shoved under the carpet while people who abuse prisoners more than anyone on earth, turn themselves into pretzels because a few bad guards screwed up–you’d think we beheaded some prisoners or something. This Nick Berg thing is unexcusable–only very sick ,demented ,brainwashed morons would do that. -
AKG–then you are familiar with ‘Thou shalt not kill’. Mohammed ,on the other hand, says KILL those infidels.
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Kat – is your therapist on vacation?
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So did God contradict himself when he said ‘thou shalt not kill’ and then proceeded to say that exceptions could be made for the amalekites, the people of jericho, amorites, the people of Ai, the people of Mekkadeh, libnah, lachish, eglon, hebron, debir etc. (all in the book of Joshua) ?
That commandment also did not seem to stop all “christian” rulers since Constantine from killing, in the name of God no less. This includes a certain head of state who was told by God to prosecute a war on another country and kill more than 10,000 in the process.
Again, i condemn this violence. -
Sure, you do–as long as it’s your terrorist buddies being killed. If it’s Christians or Americans or Jews–they deserve it. Allah said so.
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I don’t have one Karl–but you may find another in the yellow pages if you need one . Sorry about your mental malady. Try some of the Prosac or whatever.
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Bring ’em on! Yee haw! Mission accomplished!
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Jurgen-Javier: When you go to war, it is necessary to dehumanize the enemy and yourself. In this respect, Lynndie was further along in the process than anyone else.
(“War Without Mercy” by John Dower? ) The morality of the left: Denouncing Americans is good under any circumstance, denouncing Islam and Muslims when they commit murder is racist. The whole discourse of the left is marshalled in the service of justifying Muslim murder and blasting American values.
Keep it coming: the more idiots like you press the discourse into service to justify the absurd, you discredit the discourse even further. It’s noticed, you know: the 24/7 whining over humiliation of prisoners in Abu Ghraib (who by the way are still alive) being equated with Daniel Pearl, contractors in Fallujah, and now Nick Berg, (whose deaths by the way cannot be shown unedited on television.) When the discourse dissolves under it’s own ultra-strength hypocrisy and Americans (hopefully soon) recognize that a Geneva convention that applies only to them and not to their enemies is a raw deal, then and only then we’ll see an end to Muslim terrorism.
And that’s not dehumanization, that’s just recognizing the Geneva conventions and mainstream leftist discourses for what they are: more broken down and selectively applied compacts of the broken down UN variety designed to keep our enemies’ knives turning in our backs. -
Somewhere Osama is smiling. He suckered Bush into a starting a Holy War against Islam. (If you don’t believe me, take another look at the ugly comments above.) This is exactly what the Sept. 11 terrorists wanted.
While there can be absolutely no justification for the horrific beheading of Mr. Berg, it is clear that Bush’s invasion of Iraq was a collosal mistake. -
Egger:
Osama smiling? He counted on a humiliated US to flee the Middle East so that he could initiate a thousand year reich, er, a modern day caliphate. No, he’s not smiling, and they’re making the same miscalculation. Eventually, the cost of living with Al Qaeda will exceed even the price of clinging to precious mainstream liberal pap about the “root causes” of terrorism used to justify their crimes. Then the gloves will come off. -
Do you know what happens when you provoke some stupid, fundementalist lunatics by some irrational, inexplicable action? You should by now!
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Jeff, the Nick Berg story apparently has a stranger turn… he was in Iraq as an “independent contractor” and was questioned by FBI and US military police for awhile. He also signed on to an A.N.S.W.E.R. “call to action” for “Bring the Troops Home Now”:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092851/posts
These craven murderers apparently beheaded an ally of theirs. I haven’t seen mention of this in mainstream news accounts, but haven’t checked every source yet.
(This is similar to the three Japanese hostages last month — if you dig past the mainstream news coverage you’ll find that they were “antiwar activists”.)
Could you confirm, test, and highlight this datum if you see fit, please? Thanks.
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Sorry, my mistake, posted too quick. If you search that ANSWER list at FreeP it lists his father under a search on “Prometheus Methods”. His son allegedly went as a representative of the company for contracts in Iraq, but I don’t see a direct link yet between his son and prior political statements.
His dad has an A.N.S.W.E.R. affiliation — that’s the closest link yet. -
Those marking the nasty comments about Islam are falling into the trap that Georgie Ann Geyer wrote about on April 30.
http://www.uexpress.com/georgieannegeyer/?uc_full_date=20040430
Here’s an excerpt:
“The American story has always been one of innocence. That was, indeed, the story of Vietnam — remember the last line in “The Quiet American,” when the British journalist says of the good, but innocently destructive, American that he has never seen a good man who could do so much harm?
“But the problem with innocence in the real world is that it always creates its own hangman. When you are engaged in wars such as Vietnam or Iraq, where you didn’t have to be and you don’t know the cultural realities, innocence soon turns to a very special kind of rage. (“Why don’t they appreciate our good intentions?”) Then the rage turns to the cruelty that John Kerry and many of us saw in Vietnam and, very often, transforms the decent combatant into a mirror image of the enemy. (“We’ll show them.”)
“Inevitably, the innocent but bloodied invader leaves. (“We tried — they weren’t worthy of our goodness.”)
“America is a great country, and it is a tribute to our core goodness that these kinds of wars play only to our weaknesses. There is only one rather simple answer to what happened this week: Don’t get into these wars.” -
With Robert McClelland we have at least one vote for the Abu Ghraib prisoner-humiliations being just as bad if not worse than a person being beheaded by Islamist terrorists. Thanks, McClelland! You’re the gift that keeps on giving.
With Michael we have… a visit from Mr. Obvious Man! “The perpetrators of this crime deserve to be punished. What they did was horribly horribly wrong.” Wow, you don’t say! Thanks, Michael, without you we’d never know what to think about this.
Kat: you need to shut up now. Every time you go off on your rants about how Islam is a “sick” religion and so on, the “Christianity sucks too” bores come out of the woodwork. Don’t give these people any more fuel. -
doomed to repeat it: you quote Geyer as writing: “”America is a great country, and it is a tribute to our core goodness that these kinds of wars play only to our weaknesses. There is only one rather simple answer to what happened this week: Don’t get into these wars.” Well, then, she’s a right idiot. Did those towers in Manhattan get destroyed by a meteorite? Isolationism isn’t an option any more, if it ever realisitically was. This war was inevitable, considering that we are the antithesis of everything the Islamists believe in and that their credo is based around destroying everything that is the antithesis of what they believe in. But if it disturbs her to see people getting hurt, she can always turn off the tv and quit reading newspapers. So can you. (You might want to avoid the internet in the future as well, or stick to My Little Pony and Olson Twins websites.)
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Interesting that the fact of Nick being Jewish is ignored by the talking heads. Wonder why? Further he didn’t go to Iraq because he cdn’t get a job in America (as some idiot said on this thread). He went to Iraq because he believes in democracy, modernity and goes to third world nations REGULARLY to assist in any way he can.
If more Americans were like Nick Berg and Pat Tillman and less like the pathetic worm Bobby (hey you’re a rube!) McDickhead, America wd be a much better place. -
Calm.
Focus.
Balance.
Now read this excerpt completely: Marlon Brando’s monolog as the Colonel in “Apocalypse Now”.
His monolog ends, “You have to have men who are moral, and at the same time, who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill. . . without feeling, without passion, without judgment; – without judgment, because it’s judgment that defeats us.”
The best generals and pacifists understand that war is a nasty place to be. There are no guarantees that the good guys will win. It is to be avoided, if possible. But if you find yourself in a war, be certain why you are there — Understanding why gives courage. There are good reasons to be in Iraq. Then gather your calm, your focus, and your balance to do what needs to be done.
The difference between those we are fighting and us is that while we both know that war is “No rules – Law of the Jungle”, we — except for a few the aberrations — choose not to fight that way.
Calm. Focus. Balance. Resolve. -
Andrea, I know, but Muslim apologists are all complicit in creating an environment of tolerance for these types of acts by blaming America or Israel or Christianity for every atrocity a muslim commits and with their refusal to call a muslim terrorist a muslim, for fear of offending them and demanding an apology every time a Muslim thinks we looked at him the wrong way. It is time to demand that the ‘Arab Street’ be held accountable for the actions of its murderers. Start off with apologizing for 911. I think it is time to acknowledge that there is a strong link between islamism and terrorism,and stop making excuses for cold blooded killers .
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Andrea Harris, Iraq had nothing to do with Sept. 11. Even Bush has belatedly admitted it. For someone who thinks herself knowledgeable on world events, you sure miss a lot. But that’s what happens to people who don’t let themselves get confused with facts.
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Yes, “doomed”, just keep repeating it as you pull your covers over your head at night. “Iraq had nothing to do with Arab extremism. Iraq had nothing to do with Arab extremism… ”
Has anyone checked out Kos to see if he’s having ‘gasms over another “mercenary” killed?
“Damned (uhooh) mercenary (oohaahh) got what he deserved.. (ohgodohgodohgodohgodohgodohgod!!!)” -
Oh, can’t we just look forward to Ted Rall’s celebratory cartoon (what a sap! ah, ha ha ha ha ha).
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Reid, if you disagree with what I say, show some evidence to the contrary. I said that Iraq had nothing to do with Sept. 11. Instead of confronting that factual assertion head-on, you play little rhetorical word games. This is typical of the flight from reality of the pro-war side.
We already have an unfinished war, in Afghanistan, but we have diverted most of our strength to an unrelated, optional war. We have less force to bear in other parts of the world if another crisis should strike. But since you evidently have no serious rejoinder to my points, enjoy your little word games if they make you feel better. -
doomed:
While it is still open for debate whether or not Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 (Atta’s meetings in Prague with Iraqi intel, millions of UNSCAM dollars unaccounted for, missing WMD probably in Syria) it doesn’t matter in the end.
What matters is that the antiwar crowd had no answer to the threat that Saddam Hussein posed both the the US and to the region, and the UN failed miserably (as usual) to make any believable security guarantees. That’s why there was a war. -
Buzz, “open for debate” is apparently your euphemism for saying “we haven’t found any reliable evidence”. If such evidence were found, the Bush Adminstration would certainly say so. So you can kiss that fantasy goodbye, much as you’re still in denial.
I originally supported the war, believing Bush’s information was accurate. Now that we know better, the war can be seen as a distraction. It is a war that didn’t have to be fought, diverting us from the more important campaign against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan. (The phrase “opportunity cost” apparently isn’t in your vocabulary).
And of course, there’s North Korea, which actually has those nukes Bush was convinced Iraq was going to make.
I’d like to see the pro-war crowd confront these facts, instead of repeating their canned arguments, which have been shown to be counterfactual. Can you change your mind in the face of contrary evidence, or will you just keep explaining it away? -
“doomed”:
The sanctions regime against Iraq was one of the top recruitment issues for Al Qaeda and were widely accepted in the Arab world as having been responsible for the deaths of millions of Iraqis. They were regularly cited by bin Laden (see his 1998 fatwah) as the number 2 reason for declaring jihad against the US, second only to the presence of US troops in the Muslim holy land to protect the Saudi kingdom against… you guessed it, Iraq.
So, Iraq had everything to do with 9/11, whether you accept the plethora of circumstantial evidence tying Saddam to Al Qaeda or not. If you fail to acknowledge this, it is only because you seek comfort in ignorance. -
“the war can be seen as a distraction”
“which have been shown to be counterfactual”
“diverting us from the more important campaign against Al Qaeda “
Talk about your canned arguments. Whew! -
Uh, Reid — *the United States* was responsible for keeping the sanctions on Iraq, and *the United States* were the ones keeping troops in Saudi Arabia. You have only proven that Al Qaeda benefited from our own actions. But keep on trying, I want to see just how far-fetched your conjecturizing can go.
The “plethora of circumstantial evidence” supposedly proving that Iraq helped with Sept. 11 was not good enough for the Bush Adminstration to cite as proof. But I guess it’s seeking comfort in ignorance. -
doomed,
just curious what you now think we should do in Iraq and what you now believe about bush’s intentions before going to war? Are you to say that Bush lied? That he conjured this up in Texas ala Ted Kennedy? Do you think we should just cut and run? -
Mike, you have some good questions. Here’s my answers.
I think Bush is guilty of wishful thinking. He deceived us, but first worked hard on deceiving himself. If you look hard enough for evidence to back up what you already “know,” you’re sure to find it. This attitude from the Commander in Chief percolates down. And remember, Bush doubts evolution, so it’s not surprising he would believe in this political creationism.
In short, Bush doesn’t know how to make judgments about ambiguous information or deal in degrees of knowledge. It’s all binary for him.
I think we should make a special effort to bring in troops from moderate Islamic countries such as Morocco, and withdraw our troops as these come in. These replacement troops would be better suited culturally to deal with Iraqis.
If any of our troops have the anti-Islamic attitudes of certain people commenting here, no wonder there was torture, and no wonder many Iraqis have come to resent Americans.
We might agree to keep some troops there for a bit longer in Kurdistan where they are welcome. But elsewere, let’s make sure that the bulk of forces are from other countries. As an American-dominated occupation, this war has failed. The longer we go on refusing to accept this fact, the higher the price we will have to pay. -
So, doomed-to-be-a-moron, you believe we should have unilaterally ended the sanctions and allowed Saddam to romp around unfettered?
Say, do you believe OJ was guilty? Just want to make sure you are consistent in your application of standards of guilt. -
I think Bush is guilty of wishful thinking.
I think we should make a special effort to bring in troops from moderate Islamic countries such as Morocco, and withdraw our troops as these come in.
Everyone see the hilarity?
Bush thought what everyone thought. Get that through your thick skull.“What if [Saddam] fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction? … Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he’ll use the arsenal.”
Know who said that, doomed?
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I think your assertions about Bush not being able to make judgments about ambiguous information are off-base. I don’t believe Bush received ambiguous information, what part of George Tenet’s declaration that the WMD in Iraq is a slam-dunk (sorry I don’t have a link, but maybe someone else does) sounds ambiguous. It would seem you are suggesting that Saddam didn’t have any WMD or capacity to make WMD at all. The record shows otherwise as the UN, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, et al. have all confirmed the allegations of Saddam’s possesion of such weapons.
In regards to our troop withdrawal, what makes you think the Iraqi people would be more acceptable of occupation by the Moroccans or other Muslim governments? That is a rather large assumption. Unfortunately, the acts of a small number of our troops have tarnished our image. But really, you need not look any further to see the threats our soldiers face daily than the video of the barbaric murder of Nick Berg. Those types of savages are the real obstacles to peace in Iraq. -
Reid-troll, I’m not surprised you’d stoop to name-calling and ridicule, since you evidently aren’t used to serious factual discussion. It shows.
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Zymurgist, etc.
Instead of “hilarity,” I see some very fantasy-prone pro-war types, who can only sustain their sense of righteousness by insulting those who dare disagree with them, or point out that their so-called facts have been falsified.
Bush received the evidence he wanted to receive; the ambiguities in the raw evidence were cleaned up before being given to him. Hence, aluminum tubes that could be used for missiles were interpreted as meant for nuclear devices.
There is a big difference between having WMD and the capacity to make WMD. The pro-war types seem to deliberately confuse these matters as their fallback position. And of course, the real justification for the war was supposedly that Saddam was planning to use the weapons against the United States.
Why do I think Moroccan or other Arabic troops would be more acceptable than Americans? Culture, language and religion. Most of our troops don’t speak Arabic, they don’t share the same religion, and our customs are quite different. This poses a big barrier to building a trusting relationship.
And many of our troops do not want to be there, are unhappy at being stuck there (summer temps should be just wonderful!), away from their loved ones, some with businesses failing in their absence. These short-tempered types won’t be particularly appreciative of the people who they blame for their unwilling deployment. Not the best choice for goodwill ambassadors.
Reality will kick in at a certain point with the prowar types. You will be unable to explain away the torrent of evidence, and finally recognize the war is counterproductive. George Will is having his ephiphany now, even Charles Krauthammer shows signs of wavering (forget democracy, let’s settle for order).
Some of you will prefer to spend your time snarling at those who point out the unpleasant facts. So be it. Have fun in your delusive dreamland. -
doomed, you’re lost. The hilarity is that you accuse Bush of wishful thinking, and then in the same breath suggest we have other nations deploy their troops in our stead. Don’t you get it? Why would they do this? The won’t. YOU are the one guilty of wishful thinking, and in the most embarrassingly naive way.
Bush received the evidence that was available. He came to the same conclusions regarding the threat from Iraq as his successor did. Do you deny this? Do you deny that regime-change in Iraq as a policy pre-dates the Bush presidency. Are you so blinded by Bush-hatred, that you have lost sight of all facts and reason?
You just don’t get it. The existence of WMD stockpiles isn’t the primary justification for our take-down of Saddam. We KNOW he had them… Or do you deny this as well? We KNOW he failed to account for their destruction. We KNOW what UNSC 1441 said.
Why don’t you explain to me how Clinton came to the same conclusions Bush did? Why don’t you explain to me why Blair did as well? Do you know how many countries are involved in this “unilateral” effort. You are either ignorant, or willfully ignorant. Either way: ignorant. -
doomed,
half of your solution is based on assumptions that you couldn’t possibly have any knowledge of. Like, who says the Moroccans or any other Muslim government would want to assume the role of peacekeeper in Iraq? Are you in communication with the foreign leaders of these governments.
And again, how are you so sure that the Iraqis would be so willing to accept these troops from other countries? You can say culture and language all you want, but they would still be an occupying force. And I would tend to believe that another government would view this a power-grab opportunity more than a peace-keeping one.
and just one other question, why weren’t you so enlightened to know the evidence Bush cited was ambiguous before the war? -
doomed-to-be-an-imbecile:
Cry me a river. Nice way to avoid answering my questions. -
doomed: (Replying to your challenge of two hours ago:)
You missed the point: While I consider the possibilities by no means exhausted, it simply does not matter if WMD are found or not, nor does it matter if a 9/11 link is found or not. What matters is the estimated costs of leaving Saddam Hussein in power and comparing them to the costs of going to war to remove him. Before 9/11, these costs were in equilibrium with each other. The evidence for this is that the situation was so finely tuned: the sanctions regime, pinprick airstrikes against anti-aircraft fire in no-fly zones, etc. Before 9/11, the Bush adminstration was still fine tuning the Iraq situation even further by arguing for smart sanctions at the UN. (And being thwarted by Russia… interesting.)
After 9/11, the costs of leaving Hussein in power increased dramatically, as estimated by his past proclivity for WMD, the real uncertainties in his c2002 WMD stockpile, his desire to strike at the US in revenge for 1991 and for increased regional power, and of course the increased devastation to American cities deemed possible after 9/11. The main question I am referring to, the one that neither you nor anyone against the war has an answer for, is what mitigates that particular increase in cost?
I hope you see how this analysis answers your challenges by the way, but just to make it explicit:
It is not the proven existence of WMD stockpiles that motivates the estimated cost of leaving Hussein in power, rather it is the uncertainty in the WMD estimates. If that seems unsatisfactory to you, I have two examples. During the Cold War, it was necessary to have inspections and verifiability in order to negotiate many of the arms reduction treaties between the US and the USSR. This was not necessary in order to “catch” the other guy cheating, it was necessary in order to reduce the uncertainty that the other side gained a momentary first strike advantage. Second, before one goes on a long driving trip, one often gets a tune up. That’s not because one knows for sure something is wrong with the car, rather it is a function of the uncertainty (and the increased cost of breaking down away from home.)
The antiwar crowd tries to fight this facet in two ways. First, they point out that no WMD were found. Though I still hold out a possibility that they may be found, especially in Syria, it doesn’t erase the uncertainty around WMD in Iraq before the war, an uncertainty that was inflated by Saddam’s own actions from 1998-2003. Second, they point out that inspections under Blix were working. Still, what was supposed to happen after inspections were over? The sanctions end and Saddam is free again to pursue WMD after a time? Neither does that path reduce the cost to the United States of leaving Saddam in power. A related argument repeatedly put forth by John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago is that Saddam was “contained” and could continue to be contained well into the future. But the UNSCAM scandals blow that whopper out of the water. How do you answer the facts of WMD uncertainty and UNSCAM?
The war in Iraq furthermore does not detract from the war against Al Qaeda. That we have about 130000 more troops in the region now than before the war should be enough to show that, 130000 troops in the epicenter of where we think the WMD are Syria, Iran. You mentioned going to war against Pakistan? It cost far less to flip Musharraf to our side and bottle them in Waziristan. Al Qaeda is clearly working in Iraq now, as the death of Nick Berg shows.
If you still think that Iraq is detracting from the hunt for Al Qaeda, pray tell what exactly you would do. More boots in Afghanistan? Doesn’t help if they are hiding in Pakistan. Attack Pakistan? Expensive proposition since they have nukes and Musharraf is thoroughly flipped to our side anyway, and is even negotiating peace with India. I’d say we can afford to bide our time, So what exactly? WHAT?
North Korea has an immense stockpile of conventional weapons aimed at Seoul. Though the cost of living with Kim Jong Il has increased as well, it still does not exceed the cost of going to war with North Korea which include a devastated Seoul and an estimated millions of dead South Koreans in the first few weeks. There was no such cost in the case of Iraq. How do you answer that?
So these were some facts that the pro-war crowd have been working with and that the antiwar crowd have been ignoring or dodging. Summarizing the central point: what eats the cost of living with Saddam Hussein post 9/11? The cost is demonstrably higher than the cost of going to war to remove him, inspections do not reduce the cost after they reach conclusion, “containment” by sanctions was broken in spectacular fashion by a corrupt UN, a corrupt UN again could not face the music now or in 1991 and call for the removal of Hussein, so what eats the cost of living with Saddam Hussein post 9/11?
I’ll say it again, since antiwar people seem congenitally unable to face this question: what eats the cost of living with Saddam Hussein post 9/11? -
Thanks, guys, for taking on doomed-to-be-a-bore. I tried to read the rest of what he had to say, but my eyes glazed over almost immediately.
-
The lens of the media magnifies what is in view at the expense of distorting that which is around it:
Gunfire in Baghdad: “GUNFIRE erupted across Baghdad and tracer bullets lit the night sky last night, but this was not war, it was joy. Iraq’s young footballers have qualified for their first Olympics.”
