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Europe’s moral quandry: Mensch or surrender money?

32 comments on Europe’s moral quandry: Mensch or surrender money?

Europe’s moral quandry: Mensch or surrender money?
: Bin Laden supposedly offers European nations a “truce” if they withdraw troops from any Muslim nations.

So now we have the moral counterpoint to Bush’s your-with-us-or-you’re-against-us challenge. Are you with bin Laden or America? Are you with murdering religous fundamentalist fanatics or modernity? Are you with civilization or not? Pretty clear choice to me. It’s not about Bush. It’s about right and wrong. Very clear choice.

If Europe has any balls — and soul and moral fiber — every nation will announce today that they are sending troops to Iraq and that bin Laden can go F himself.

If….

: UPDATE: Of course, Britain has balls. But do the French?

Italy has balls. But do the Germans?

: EVENING UPDATE: France and Germany have balls!

32 responses to “Europe’s moral quandry: Mensch or surrender money?”

  1. Tom Avatar
    Tom

    Fat chance. While I don’t think anyone will really pull out their troops, I don’t see anyone going in.

  2. Mumblix Grumph Avatar
    Mumblix Grumph

    I’ll vote for “surrender monkey. Yet somehow Europe will spin it into looking like bravery by “standing up” against the US.

  3. Kat Avatar
    Kat

    Bin Laden’s next message will tell Europeans that is they submit to islam peacefully and become good, little dhimmi, they will not be attacked.

  4. Angelos Avatar
    Angelos

    Exactly. The infidels must be converted or killed.
    But really, isn’t proselytizing the imperative of every religion? Catholics and Christians have killed a load of people over the years, in the name of god.
    Silly lemmings.

  5. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    The difference being that Catholics and Christians have evolved since then, Muslims haven’t.
    We are not going to see another crusades in our lifetime.

  6. Kathy K Avatar
    Kathy K

    I wonder what Spain will do. Will they withdraw their troops from their own country? (Spain, by bin Laden’s ideology, is a Muslim nation taken over by the infidels.)

  7. clive Avatar
    clive

    This (somewhat embarrassed) european isn’t going to fall for uncle osamas nonsense. Unfortunately many europeans will. You have to understand that for these goons the US is the “enemy” and therefore my enemies enemy is my friend – We’ve had an easy 50 odd years – don’t remember what it means to have to fight for something. Note that support for the US is higher in eastern europe than in the west which takes life for granted.

  8. Avatar
    Anonymous

    With all my respect to many of America good things, you american people tend to see the world in black and white: good or evil, right or wrong. Don’t miss the rest of the color palette. Bush has killed more innocent people in Iraq than Bin Laden in US. In the view of most of the world except US, this is seen as a imperialist behaviour and a disrespect for the international rules. Apparently, Bush and Bin Laden seem to agree in the same agenda: dividing the world and promoting terrorism.
    Recently, Al Qaeda claimed that its candidate for next american presidential election is Bush. What do you have to say? Only because Al Qaeda says something, the opposite becomes the right choince? That’s simplistic.

  9. Ebb Tide Avatar
    Ebb Tide

    Can you quit reducing every argument to one about who has balls or not?
    Try it. Use your words.
    And you left out Italy. They have meatballs, too.

  10. hen Avatar
    hen

    Victor – you forgot your “sarcasm” tag, right? Bush promotes terrorism and has killed more civilians in Iraq then OBL killed in NYC and DC? Wow. What country are you from? Canada? France? Help me out here…
    Let me see then: FDR was worse then Hitler because more Germans were killed during WWII then Americans right? And same for Tojo? Stalin is a tricky one tho right.
    If these are the delightful colors on your palette i am very happy seeing things in black and white.

  11. Victor R. Ruiz Avatar
    Victor R. Ruiz

    hen: My arguments aren’t more or less valid depending where I came from.

  12. hen Avatar
    hen

    true, regardless of where you are from your arguments are ridiculous, i was just curious.
    let me ask you this tho: do you believe that OBL was hoping to kill as many people as possible, while conversely the actions of the allied forces, under generally US command, has done all it can to avoid civilian deaths?
    the fact that OBL “only” murdered 3K Americans is in itself a small miracle, but whatever, it is clear that i am not as “nuanced” as you.

  13. Victor R. Ruiz Avatar
    Victor R. Ruiz
  14. hen Avatar
    hen

    ok vic, thanks for playing.

  15. michelle Avatar
    michelle

    This one man, Fabrizio Quattrocchi show us the meaning defiance in the face of terrorism.:
    “When the murderers were pointing a pistol at him, this man tried to take off his hood and shouted: ‘Now I’m going to show you how an Italian dies’. And they killed him,” [Italin Foreign Minisiter] Frattini said.

  16. Avatar
    Anonymous

    hen: I don’t think the war was justified, so all casualties, even iraqui (and of course american) soldiers are the responsibility of Bush administration and his allies. Second, the record of civilian deaths in Iraq by occupaying forces is large, beginning with the assassination of foreign reporters, but I will remember you last week events in Falluyah.
    By the way, iraqui civilian casualties double or triple 9/11: http://www.iraqbodycount.net

  17. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Yes, Europe, Osama bin Laden has baited you! Your moral duty is to take the bait — otherwise he wins and you have no balls, double terrorist punchbuggies no returns infinity! If you’re France or Germany, start with sending troops into a war you opposed to begin with — that’ll definitely show he has no influence over your actions!
    Ahh, foreign policy advice from Blogistan. You gotta love it.

  18. Avatar
    Anonymous

    If France or Germany must send troops to Iraq, just because Osama bin Laden says the opposite, it has equal influence over their actions. Anyway, if we want to end with OBL and Al Qaeda, the target is not Iraq.

  19. James Stephenson Avatar
    James Stephenson

    But Victor, that website has been proven wrong so many times it is funny that people still use that.
    If that number was anywhere near that, how many people would have been in the hospital with Jessica? Tons, as a matter of fact reading all of the accounts of her, I see no mention of the thousands of injured Iraqis the doctors were tending too while they were tending to her. Must have just escaped their minds. Or those Iraqi blogs, if 10000 people had been killed would they not know one person, or no of someone who knew one of those dead.
    As far as the military, just remember if we killed 10000 Iraqi troops, we would have to do that for 20 more years to catch up with Saddam, if not longer. And we have yet to imprison their children, or take them to a big hole and shoot them while they still clutch their dolls.
    No, as far as I remember from the war, a Capt from here in Georgia was injured while trying to rescue Women and Children those brave Iraqi Soldiers were hiding behind, while they shot at American Soldiers.
    So please keep your moral relevance on an even keel. Or at least be closer to the truth. But then again, maybe your company, family or yourself lost out on all of the Saddam money. Blood money, used to keep people silent while Saddam killed.

  20. Darin Avatar
    Darin

    Please Victor…
    You didn’t feel the war was justified? I think, by default, this means that you think the status quo, or perhaps worse, was the preferred alternative. By definition that means that you would have preferred that Hussein stay in power as long as he could be “contained.” Who knows what would have happened if one of his thug sons took over. Putting WMDs, his invasion of a neighbor and his habitual violations of Security Council resolutions, how about doing a body count under the Hussein regime? Beyond body counts, how about the years and years of freedom that were lost and would be lost by the 27 million Iraqis.
    Where’s the blood on your hands for supporting a policy that would have left such a regime in place? Human rights are something that need to be acted on, not just talked about in Geneva.

  21. Avatar
    Anonymous
  22. hen Avatar
    hen

    now leave victor alone. we Americans just don’t have the same fine “nuance” that he does. maybe one day we can be more cosmopolitan and better understand why we are equally as bad as OBL et al….

  23. Buzz Avatar
    Buzz

    hen:
    Don’t get drawn into Victor’s moral equivalizing. The line of argument leads straight to nihilistic “Why do anything?” Like a spambot caught in a link farm, you will never get out. This is exactly the kind of debasement that bin Laden, Al Sadr, the Left, and countless others are betting on.
    Victor:
    Swapping OBL and USA, right and wrong, up and down, and declaring that everybody is at fault is a neat juggler’s trick. Of course if one looks at events from far enough above (and can’t resolve the details) everything looks the same. Or, if they categorically deny the existence of measuring sticks, you can even be as close as one likes and not discern details. The fight is justified because those we are fighting against are in favor of dictatorship, tyranny, and all matter of decadence that is, post-9/11, widely recognized as being a direct threat against us. We do not have to wait for them to mount a defense in a courtroom because there is no suitable courtroom, nor do we have to wait until they are strong enough to make it a “fair fight.”
    The truth is that we’re in Iraq today because, again, the decadence of the whole region threatens our way of life. Thankfully, those leading the charge are armed with a strong sense of moral valuation. Let’s look at their post-9/11 alternatives:
    (1) Shoot ’em all. Bad option, not proportional, highly excessive, and in the end, not moral.
    (2) Take issue to adjudicating body and press for action. Been there, done that, didn’t work.
    (3) Ignore issue and hope it doesn’t happen again. Bad option, terrorists are NOT motivated by poverty/oppression, rather by charasmatic leaders who see beating the US, or at least putting up a fight, is the surest road to regional power.
    (4) Take minimal action to acheive desired results. Ding-ding-ding: we have a winner! (But be careful not to be TOO minimal, of course.)
    Such decision making is impossible under moral equivalence, which is also precisely why it nihilistic and in vogue among such wide swaths of the Left. Just remember this next time you argue against hawkers of moral equivalence: they’re like a guy in a market determined to convince you to buy spoiled fruit at high prices. Don’t argue with him about the number of spots, or about pennies per pound. Just go to a better market.

  24. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Darin: No question about Sadam being a dictator, but he didn’t star last year’s war, but Bush. No inminent threat have been proved true, so no casus belli. There are so many dictators around the world… is US going now after China? After Cuba? After Pakistan? Do you want a WWIII? Do you think iraqui people is prepared for democracy, with an imposed constitution? What about the real threat of the international terrorism? Where is Bin Laden? Why haven’t him captured?
    Some European countries suffered comunist dictatorships until a few years ago. Today, and without wars, they have wealthy democracies and are entering NATO and European Union.

  25. hen Avatar
    hen

    Darin would you mind if i addressed Victor’s brillian points? And Buzz yes i know i am stepping into a field of cow patties, but i’m bored so…
    Bush started the war? No my friend Saddam was under both UN resolutions and a 1991 cease fire agreement to do certain things or face grave consequences, which all, but the French, understood to mean war. Further prior to the start of war Saddam was given another chance to pull back from the ledge, but having greased so many palms and whatnot he must have thought he cd have slid on this as well.
    Imminent threat? Bush specifically said that Iraq is NOT an imminent threat. That was never used as a causus belli. Our cause for war was outlined in 17 UN resolutions, the broken 1991 cease fire agreement and delineated in GWB’s address to congress asking for war powers.
    Yes there are so many rapists and murderers in the NYC why do the cops arrest anyone? This has got to be the dumbest argument against war yet. The same people who spew this nugget of idiocy our the first who get their panties wet when we start moving our crosshairs to other dictators. I trust then you recomment that the US, after we are completely thru with Iraq, move to Iran and Syria? Cool – me too.
    WWIII? We are already there – welcome aboard.
    Who imposed a constitution on the Iraqis? Was a constitution “imposed” on America?
    Bin Laden has not been captured because he is paste in some cave. But even if he is alive his capture or death means little in the war we are engaged in. He is just another thug who needs to be put down, however i believe his death was December of 2002.
    And how did these European countries under Communism get their freedom? Three letters friend: USA.
    Never forget that.

  26. Darin Avatar
    Darin

    I love it when those on the supposed left argue that we should either act to improve human rights everywhere or no where at all. As long as there is one dictator that we choose not to, or feel we cannot, topple, then all of them should get a free pass. That is a dangerous and ultimately isolationist argument that leaves the unempowered across the world with few on their side.
    As for inquiring about the readiness of the Iraqi people for democracy, do you mean to insinuate that they are not and are better equipped to live under a tyrant until they are? I’m wondering what you are basing your assumption that they are unready on?
    On the question of communist dictators and their supposed peaceful fall, let me remind you that it took fifty years and billions of dollars of US military spending, the threat of nuclear holocaust and suffering of millions before the transition happened. I would also point out that it was leaders in Poland and Czech Republic and other former communist countries that spoke out most strongly to properly address the problem of Iraq prior to the war.
    I have nothing to base this on other than intuition, but I suspect you were equally upset and suspicious about American “imperialism” and its nuclear warheads and troops in Germany during the 80’s.
    May I ask you a question? What would you have done as a leader of the United States when confronted with the Rwanda genocide in 1994? What about if you were confronted with details of Al Qaida training camps in Afganistan and evidence that they were going to attack the United States in 1999 or 2000?

  27. Darin Avatar
    Darin

    This article ran in the Independent today….
    http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=378
    “The Human Rights Centre (HRC) in Kadhimiya has been set up by Iraqis themselves from the ashes of Baathism. They have been going methodically through the massive – and previously unexplored – archives left by the regime, which document every killing in cold bureaucracy-speak. The HRC have found that if the invasion had not happened, Saddam would have killed 70,000 people in the past year. Not sanctions: Saddam’s tyranny alone.”

  28. robert Avatar
    robert

    Maybe the response should be to ask all muslims who agree with bin laden to leave western lands and return to their brothers.

  29. lk Avatar
    lk

    Osama is attempting to divide us, but Bush beat him to it.

  30. jakob Avatar
    jakob

    Victor,
    Despite what you see here, lots of Americans agree with you. I’m one. Thanks for your comments.

  31. Dave F Avatar
    Dave F

    Chirac should not be given any testicular credit for what he said. Addressing the OBN issue, he said first, France would NEVER send troops to Iraq (OK, Osama?) but naturellement France would NEVER negotiate with terrorists. The guy’s natural instinct is to weasel and welsh, and I see no change there.

  32. miguel Avatar
    miguel

    it’s not about playing balls, honeys!