Defence

Defence
: Josh Marshall advises:

The Kerry campaign went up with an ad today in response to the president’s new round of negative ads. The Kerry one took aim at the president’s claims about the economy.

But Kerry really needs to hit back on defense too. Now.

Yes, I want to see defense and homeland security as issues in this campaign.

But when I go to Kerry’s site, and look at the box on the upper-right of the page, listing big issues — Economy & Jobs, Education, Health Care… — defense isn’t even listed.

Homeland Security is listed but going there gives you ideas about expanding Americorps and its role in Homeland Security but nothing about defense.

In other words, there’s nothing about going to get the bad guys where they fester.

If I click through under foreign policy, I finally find a speech with this:

At the core of this conflict is a fundamental struggle of ideas. Of democracy and tolerance against those who would use any means and attack any target to impose their narrow views.

The War on Terror is not a clash of civilizations. It is a clash of civilization against chaos; of the best hopes of humanity against dogmatic fears of progress and the future.

That’s the ticket.

But I want to hear the guy say he will not rest until he gets the bad guys. I want to hear the guy say he will spare nothing to defend us. As Marshall says, I want to see him talk defense. Now.

But the talk is spare and hidden.

Yesterday, Glenn Reynolds went looking for a statement from Kerry on the horror in Madrid. He finally found it. But this, too, was hidden.

Kerry is still acting as if he’s up against Howard Dean, scared of his own military shadow.

He’s up against George Bush and he better come out tough on terrorism — he’d better talk and act as if we are at war, because we are — and he better be loud and clear on it. Now.

: UPDATE: Matt Stoller says it’s time to turn this into a liberal war.

: Mathew Gross sums up concurring comment — it’s a damned bandwagon! — from Atrios and Kos.

77 responses to “Defence”

  1. Dave Schuler Avatar
    Dave Schuler

    Dear Mr. Jarvis:
    While I’m no fan of GWB, I think we have to think seriously about what a Kerry administration would actually do. Mr. Kerry has built his political career on being anti-war. Who would comprise his administration? It’s likely that they would be people with similar views or, even more likely, people who are even more dove-ish than Mr. Kerry. Surrounded by people advising against military action would President Kerry respond with military action against attack? What evidence not from his speech but from his conduct do we have for this?

  2. alkali Avatar

    How about this?
    [W]e all know America cannot rest until Osama bin Laden is captured or killed. And when that day comes, it will be a great step forward but we will still have far more to do. It will be a victory in the War on Terror, but it will not be the end of the War on Terror.
    This war isn

  3. alkali Avatar

    Dave Schuler writes:
    Mr. Kerry has built his political career on being anti-war.
    Actually, he ran for Congress as an anti-Vietnam-war candidate a couple times in the 1970s and lost. He then took a decade off from politics, went to law school, and made his name as a prosecutor in Massachusetts before running for statewide office in the mid-80s. That’s where his political career came from.
    The AP reports, “Since Vietnam, Kerry has supported most U.S. military ventures, in Bosnia, Kosovo, Panama, Somalia, Haiti, Grenada. In Kosovo, he went further than the Clinton administration, arguing that ground troops should remain as an option for stopping former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic’s violent crackdown on the Serbian province’s ethnic Albanian majority.”
    If there is a reason for thinking that Kerry has built his career on reflexive pacifism, I am not aware of it.

  4. anne.elk Avatar
    anne.elk

    Bottom of the homepage:

    Fighting a Comprehensive War on Terrorism

    Try scrolling before blogging.

  5. Randal Robinson Avatar

    Even if Kerry came out strong now against terrorism why would anyone really believe he means it rather than just using it as a campaign strategy?

  6. Susan Avatar

    Should Kerry win the presidency I am going to move out of the prime terrorist target number one ‘Big Apple’. My guess is that I will not be the only one.
    It will not be worth living in this high cost of living city while being forced to once again pay high taxes under a President who has clearly shown he hasn’t the balls to conduct war against anything.
    Using our over-burdened police and fire department with our over-burdened judicial system is bad policy for addressing war.
    And, to rely on the corrupt United Nations for guidance and resolve is simply a death sentence.
    Kerry has no intention of defending or protecting me, so I will have to take action to defend and protect myself.
    Someone needs to inform Kerry that the number one function of the government is to protect and defend it’s people.
    As we now know, the past thirty years of riding the ‘peace, love and understanding magic bus’ has allowed for the unprovoked slaughter of our innocent citizens. After all, were we not for the past thirty years advocates of peace, love and understanding.
    People need to understand the ‘magic bus’ has run out of gas!

  7. onecent Avatar

    Kerry’s record from his years on the Senate Intelligence Committee, most significantly his behavior following the 1993 WTC bombing, doesn’t inspire confidence that he appreciated the nature of terrorism and the countermeasures to thwart it.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comstock200403100835.asp
    He was part of the problem leading up to 9/11. It is dumb to recycle this sorry do nothing and expect he is now the solution.

  8. hey Avatar

    jeff, he is a liberal democrat
    he does not believe in or support the agencies of the us government that defend the country
    he has repeatedly said that the war on terror is misguided, that it is really a matter for police, lawyers, and courts
    his staff will be drawn from the anti-war pacifists who make up most young supporters of the democratic party (staffers are almost all young..)
    administrations are staffed by the most motivated parts of the base and by the friends and family of the campaign. bush’s staff probably scare everyone but rumsfeld in their commitment to the military, intelligence, free markets, etc. You’ll notice that this white house does not leak, except officially on background for trial balloons, whereas the clinton one was an insult to seives everywhere
    read the stories on how clinton’s likely earnest and real desire to do something about bin laden was hemmed in by the staff’s reluctance and their incessant box ticking, so that operations were delayed, reduced, or both
    bush is not great on the WoT. he is too mild, and has not taken our true enemies to task (saudi arabia, Iran). He is overly concerned with finesse and legalistic posturing, but is the best choice we have. Ideally we’d have a MacArthur or a Patton running things (Rummy!!!!), but we won’t have that chance until at least 08.
    a kerry administration will not pursue the war on terror. what would ann.elk do? alkali? those are the people who will be executing Kerry’s plans
    i’ll bet massively that changing policy on gays (bad as it inarguably is) and promoting women in the various services will have massively higher importance than using all means necessary and available to end terrorism (or at least terrorists). Their priority 1 will be social change, while bush’s priority 1 is winning (including transforming the military into an organization that can actually handle its most likely missions).
    but you’ll vote for surrender. too bad. republicans will still defend NYC and LA, even though we will never be thanked (one more way NYC is just like France!)

  9. Karl Gallagher Avatar

    Screw defense. I want to hear about offense. And Kerry’s speech hasn’t completely reassured me: http://www.livejournal.com/users/selenite/31399.html

  10. Oliver Avatar

    Instapundit couldn’t find the Madrid entry because he didn’t want to. IT WAS RIGHT THERE, but he was so intent on smearing Kerry, he went ahead and shot off the mouth. Lying liars.

  11. Peg C. Avatar

    If Kerry is so pro defense and pro-WOT, not to mention so damning of the Madrid bombing, why is the mainstream media completely ignoring those statements? Kerry takes all positions on all issues and is whatever his audience wants him to be, so I cannot believe a word from his mouth, for or against anything. However, were he even to try to get pro-defense messages out, the mainstream media would ignore them because IT’S A LOSING POSTURE FOR DEMOCRATS.

  12. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    As another famous character once said, “what you talking about Willis!”.
    Leave it to someone like Ollie Willis to play the stupid card. Oh yes, jeff and Glenn are are wothy of his brilliance. So like Franken, are you doing the takedowns for Kerry these days.
    Please! So did you stand too close to your own krytonite this morning?

  13. Andrea Harris Avatar

    A direct quote from Jeff’s post, emphasis mine:
    “Yesterday, Glenn Reynolds went looking for a statement from Kerry on the horror in Madrid. He finally found it.”
    Hey, Oliver, what part of “he found it” is so hard to understand? Lying liar indeed.

  14. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Oh and — “he didn’t want to” — so you can read Glenn’s mind and heart? Bzzzt! Sorry. Play again.

  15. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Everything Ollie rights seems to be written with a perpetual sneer.
    If there is one second of 9/11 footage, the world is coming to an end, evil Bush, etc. Dean can say something outragoeus like Bush knew 9/11 was coming, and Ollie thinks that is okay. Clark can say that Bush betrayed his country. Moore can say he is a deserter and Ollie thinks these are okay.
    There is a smear machine alright and we know whose driving it. People like Ollie are joyriding along and throwing as many firebombs as they can.
    Andrea, I think that if Kerry is elected, I am with you. I will move out of the line of fire and watch the Kerry Titanic show. At least firearms are still legal in places.

  16. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    Semantics and location of a candidate’s position on their webpage seems to be considered in analyzing a candidate. Homeland Security vs. defense. Instapundit is like a crybaby when he can’t find Kerry’s response on Spain, and manages to get in a some snarky comments. And the beat goes on, the key is to determine the inclinations of the writer, as bias is widespread.

  17. Shelley Avatar

    More people will die in this country because of untreated illness due to lack of health insurance, and lack of health care, then because of terrorism.
    It is hip to get on the fear bandwagon, to indulge in hyperbole and hysteria in these pages; yet for all the silly talk of moving out of the line of fire, we all know that no such thing will happen.
    We are not a safer place because we invaded Iraq. All the foolish reliance on old 70’s photos of Kerry aside, I have no doubts that Kerry would be an effective leader when it comes to handling terrorism, but not at the expense of the freedom what we say we cherish but are so willing to easily give up. And not without thinking of the longterm consequences of invading a country, when there was no demonstrated need for such hurry.
    Personally, though, I would rather Kerry’s first focus be on finding a way to help provide basic health care for everyone in this country; to increasing funds for retraining of displaced workers; and to protecting what few wild areas we still have left. The end of this year will see this country in a mess, and all the hysteria fostered by people who are looking to generate more buzz for themselves won’t hide that fact.
    But it is more fun to indulge in hyperbole, isn’t it?

  18. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Glenn is a big boy and I don’t have to defend him again ad-homs. You realize he has a perfect right to know what Kerry’s viewpoint and plans on terrorism are. Kerry has a long history on these matters that give pause to someone like myself that he will prosecute the job properly. Maybe trusting him because of idealogical orientation is ok for you, but I meed to see him step up and talk seriously. More so than a no name brand candidate precisely because of his background. For my vote, he has to assure me he will do the job the way it needs to be done
    Yes, bias is there, Dinosaur. The problem is that people yelling bias are all too oblivious of their own. I know exactly what mine. Do you or Willis actually recognize yours?

  19. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    Shelley – good comment, but see what happens when Kerry talks about inproving health care, the Repub attack squad (Mary Matilin) says he is for 900 billion tax increase. Better health care = tax increase – Repub logic, and acare tactics. like Kerry’s recomendation to reduce intel by 1%, which translates to gutting the intel budget. Ah, politics, accuracy is not required or sought.

  20. Floyd McWilliams Avatar

    Bottom of the homepage:
    Fighting a Comprehensive War on Terrorism
    Try scrolling before blogging.
    I went to Kerry’s page. At the upper right, prominently featured in a box, is a list of hyperlinked issues:
    Economy & Jobs
    Education
    College Affordability
    Health Care
    Veterans
    Foreign Policy
    Homeland Security
    Iraq Plan for Peace
    Energy/Environment
    More Issues…
    Clicking More Issues… takes you to a page with a larger box, with additional issues like Agriculture and AIDS and Americans with Disabilities. The center column previews articles and their opening paragraphs, and when you are on the Issues page “Fighting a Comprehensive War on Terrorism” is not one of them.
    Sure, you can find content on Kerry’s page that talks about the war. But it’s like going to a software company’s web page and looking for a patch for an old release of one of their minor products. There is no evidence at all that Kerry wants to talk about the war.

  21. old maltese Avatar
    old maltese

    ‘Not only a strong military – but renewed alliances, vigorous law enforcement, reliable intelligence, and unremitting effort to shut down the flow of terrorist funds. …’
    Yep, renewed alliances and vigorous law enforcement. That’s the ticket. This was written by the Senator or by his staff? How much of it does he believe?

  22. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    Yes, Capt Joe, I have bias. But being lazy and criticizing because of opinion placement on a website is silly. Kerry does not want to talk about defense? How many debates has he gone through? And how many news conferences has Bush? Bush is afraid of an uncontrolled Q and A becasue he comes across as incoherent, but there is a reason – because he is incoherent. oops, my bias is showing, but at least I don’t comnplain because i can’t find what I want at the Bush website.

  23. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    old maltese – Do you think Bush writes his own stuff? he cannot even think up his own stuff, much less write it down.

  24. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    I am sure that those 200 dead and 1400 injured in Madrid and all their families and the 8 million marchers on the street will feel consoled by your words. If only we can get to recognize the hyberbole of their actions.
    The take away I get from your words is that we should not bother with any sort of action against terrorism. Sure 117 people die each day from car accidents, perhaps out money would be better spent on traffic system, and car safety. But, although terrorism does not kill as many people as traffic fatalities, heart disease and cancer, it is a big ticket item. It directly attacks everyone”s sense of well being. When is the next attack going to come? Where? How? What is the effect on my children, yours, all of our collective mental health.
    It’s pretty barbaric to denigrate others concerns. One of the big things I know from having been there is that a lot of “almosts” are averted without the public becoming aware. How do you know that more terrorist actions would not have happened without the actions being taken. Friends of mine still in the business tell me of a lot of these stories that never made the headlines.

  25. Trump Avatar

    Jeff, if you hear kerry start to talk tough on defense, you know it’s just a lie. After all, he said it himself: TERRORISM IS A LAW ENFORCEMENT MATTER TO HIM.
    Why should you belive anything Kerry says to the contrary in the future? You’re deluding yourself if you think there is even a debate to be had between Bush and Kerry on national security. Bush worries about the safety of U.S. citizens. Kerry worries about the approval of Frenchmen.

  26. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Oh, yes, nuance. Forgive me. Kerry just sticks his finger in the air and sees which way the nuance is blowing.
    The rest of us have to read Kerry’s website because he can’t figure out where he is going on issues. That damned nuance causes him to change directions more times than an old river.
    With Bush, I don’t have to read his website (and haven’t), because it is obvious where he stands on foreign policy issues.
    And outcomes the smear right off the top. For all you kerricrats, that seems to be the pattern, doesn’t it. Smear, smear and smear, and then accuse everyone else of smearing. Pardonez moi ma petit garcon, je va rire a toi.

  27. Trump Avatar

    but at least I don’t comnplain because i can’t find what I want at the Bush website.
    Um…he’s the president. You don’t need a website to know his positions. He’s acting on them….pay attention

  28. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    And Bush and the Repubs have never stuck their finger in the air for public opinion? Let’s go to Mars, oops, maybe not. Or done a Greg Louganis flip flop? Cheney – gay marriage is for the States, no it’s not. Bush – Osama will be hunted down, no, now he is irrelevant. we went to Iraq because of WMD’s, oh, no we didn’t, we saved Iraqis from Hussein ( and a good and noble deed it was, as we wept for the cruelties he inflicted on his people).

  29. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    trump, exactly!
    But those guys are still acting on the “He stole the presidency in Florida” meme, so they don’t regard him as the president just a candidate.

  30. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    Trump – yes, he is “acting” on them, at the direction of others. Next year’s Oscars – Best director – Karl Rover. Best Actor ina comedic role – Bush.

  31. Shelley Avatar

    Capt Joe, I’m assuming your comment is directed at me. When you respond to people specifically, you may want to address them directly; otherwise people will think you’re responding to Jeff Jarvis.
    You deliberately misread me, and you know you did, but you do so because it adds to the hostile nature of the comments here in most of Jarvis’ posting and that is far more entertaining than a reasoned discussion.
    If you are that afraid, may I suggest that you create a bomb shelter in your backyard, and never leave it. You aren’t that afraid though. Let’s be honest, there is not a person on this list that is that afraid. And rightfully so.
    Terrorism is a police action, and should be treated as such, rather than as a ‘war’, which is nothing more than campaign terminology, and a way of working around basic rights. I do believe that the US, in effort with other countries, should look at long term cross border efforts to eliminate terrorism. I believe we should have good , basic protections at our public places and on our planes, but I’ve felt that for a long time–remember planes have been blown up by terrorist activities for decades now.
    But I also believe in commonsense, and commonsense dictates that we cannot live in fear forever. And this country has more serious problems than terrorism. I am also disgusted at those who hype the fear for their own means. Whether they are a politician, or a blogger.

  32. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    Capt Joe – do you ever get tired of the stole Florida lines? Is that the answer to anyone who disagrees with you?

  33. Trump Avatar

    Trump – yes, he is “acting” on them, at the direction of others. Next year’s Oscars – Best director – Karl Rover. Best Actor ina comedic role – Bush.
    *YAWN*
    Fine, I guess you’d rather have Sen. Kennedy’s waterboy in the White House taking orders from Kennedy the murderer.

  34. Trump Avatar

    Capt Joe – do you ever get tired of the stole Florida lines? Is that the answer to anyone who disagrees with you
    You may want to ask Kerry and the Democrats that same question….because they’re the ones who won’t stop.

  35. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Has space exploration been cancelled? No I don’t think so. You read to much Marshall. Josh Marshall wants it cancelled. Perhaps you haven’t heard that Josh isn’t president. I agree that we either had to reform Nasa’s mission or dump it. I work with JPL on occasion and so far they are the only ones doing any real exploration. Nasa has devloved into some trophy wife version of a space agency (Sorry but that is how I see it). I applaud the chance to remake the manned space program. What flip, What Flop.
    There are 10,000 troops form task force 121 hunting for OBL in aphghanistan. When did we stop? Bush never placed the conditions on winning the war on terror on OBL alone. You guys did. You used the fact he wasn’t caught as “proof” we were not getting anywhere in the WoT. Each of his speeches have said that the capture of OBL was not the end of the WoT. And if he is caught then you will say he was captured for political gain. Where is the flip?
    All the speeches on invading Iraq were based on multiple reasons of which WMD was one. You guys are studiously ignored every single one of those other reasons and focused on the WMDs. Whenever the admin says, “it was not just about the WMDS”, you huff and puff and say “See, he’s lying”. Please, some basic reading comprehension.
    And about gay marriage. Cheney’s daughter is gay. The dems activist groups have been doing a number on her in order to harras her into damning her father. And San Fran forced Bush’s hand. Before the widespread action, he was studiously avoiding the issue. I think the action is wrong, but that is his choice. Where is the flip?

  36. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Yes, Kerry reprising Adam Sandler’s role as the waterboy. I don’t think Kerry is intentionaly funny, but it might work.
    And who was it recently that was in Florida warning about a team of lawyers ready to ponce to attack the results. Was that John FK. Why yes, it was.
    I will make you a deal Dinosaur (9/10). We will stop talking when you stop telling people Bush stole it. Is that your way of shutting down debate? ;)

  37. Trump Avatar

    All the speeches on invading Iraq were based on multiple reasons of which WMD was one. You guys are studiously ignored every single one of those other reasons and focused on the WMDs
    Indeed. There were several points in the buildup to the war that those on the left complained that the Pres gave too many reasons, he couldn’t make up his mind. If anyone flipped, it was the left. And they flipped out 4 years ago when they fell out of power and decided that they no longer stood for anything, except beating Bush. Afterall, what’s the big reason Kerry gets votes? “Electability”. Not his views on issues. Electability. How fricking sad

  38. Trump Avatar

    Capt. Joe, Kerredy (because Kerry and Kennedy are one and the same nowadays) has already vowed PRE-EMPTIVE legal challenges in FL. What kind of sh*t is that?
    I wonder if Kerredy will allow all the military absentee ballots this time…

  39. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Probably not, I have friends that lost out last time. At least one of them actually voted for Gore. ;)

  40. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Actually in 2000, I was massively unimpressed with GWB. I spent the year rolling my eyes so much I thought I would need corrective surgery. What changed my mind (and others among my friends) was what he did post 9/11. I keep saying “yeah, and f***ing A” a lot after that.

  41. JorgXMcKie Avatar
    JorgXMcKie

    As far as tax hikes for health go, I think the logic breaks down this way;
    Kerry promises “better health care” with specific things to be done.
    Thing to be done project $900B cost over 10 years.*
    Kerry promises not to increase deficit.
    Kerry does not show where $900B will be cut over 10 years to pay for “better health care.”
    Therefore, the money $900B must come from increased revenues (aka taxes).
    QED.
    * Estimate from frequently Kerry-cited expert on health care and its costs.
    Kerry could fix this by either; a) telling what he would cut that would equal $900B, or b) telling us how much he would have to raise taxes on “the wealthy” to get $900B (remembering to score the tax hike dynamically.)
    I’m betting c); ignore a) and b) and yell loudly that Bush is lying. (Whatever happpened to lovable old Bring. It. On. John Kerry? Where did they find the whining weenie who replaced him?

  42. Syl Avatar

    Shelley: “I am also disgusted at those who hype the fear for their own means.”
    Yep. The fear of no jobs. The fear of no health care (hey, the problem is health INSURANCE, not healthcare), the fear of the Patriot Act, the fear of corporations (who give us JOBS so they’re soooo scary), the fear that the French may not like us. And the biggest hyped fear of all..the fear of Bush! Yep, you’re hyping fear to get your ‘side’ elected. Be ashamed. Be very ashamed.

  43. sickles Avatar

    With all due respects, Mr. Jarvis, I believe that you have dropped your vote for Mr. Bush due to the Howard Stern/censorship isssue.
    If that is so, and fighting terror is number one on Mr. Bush’s agenda and not so on Mr. Kerry’s, I am having trouble understanding why the war on terror is more important than free speech. To you, censorship and free speech trumps the war on terror, so shouldn’t your blog be filled with examples and posts about censorship?

  44. Jeff B. Avatar

    sickles, I’m sort of bugged by it too, but I’ll remind you that one can decide not to vote for Bush while not offering one’s vote to Kerry either.
    I have a feeling Jeff may be voting Nader this year, ironically enough.

  45. Shelley Avatar

    Syl, shouldn’t fight a battle of wits when carrying such a dull sword. You’ve basically just said that jobs and health care are issues of concern for Democrats, and therefore I’m mentioning them to get the Democrats elected.
    Answer: well, yes.
    As for your adding in corporations, yeah, I guess that those are a Republican thing too, by your statement.
    As for the French — my, you don’t come in with pre-existing assumptions that you read into another’s writing, do you? Last time I looked, environment was not pronounced “French”.
    Mr. Jarvis, as you voting for Nader. Please do. In fact, please devote as much of your time to supporting Nader as you can. Use your usual thoughtful prose, and careful fact checking, too.

  46. Bob Avatar

    Terrorism is a police action, and should be treated as such, rather than as a ‘war’, which is nothing more than campaign terminology, and a way of working around basic rights.
    That is a remarkable statement. I don’t think that statement well-reflects the thinking of democrats, but to the extent that it does, I worry.
    First, I want a president that is willing to call a war a war. Politicians talk about “police actions” when they’re trying to pretend that there isn’t a war going on. A “police action” doesn’t exclude the use of the military, it just rhetorically diminishes the reality of that use.
    Second, no one would respond to a foreign attack on our military by calling for a “police action.” Particularly when it leaves thousands dead. So why, when thousands of civilians are killed on a foreign attack should we weaken our response? The fundamental purpose of our military is to protect the nation from foreign attacks. If you nix that, then you might as well just come out and openly advocate complete disbandment of the armed forces.
    Third, this is a war. You may prefer it be a “police action,” but it isn’t. Referring to it as a war isn’t “campaign terminology,” it’s a straightforward confession by the president that he has put our troops in harm’s way for the purpose of protection the nation. Again, you may disagree with the need, or with the reasons, or with whatever it is you disagree with. But if Mr. Bush referred to this as anything other than a war, I’d be first in line to boot him out of office. As is, he’s got the guts to not hide behind “nuance” and just tell it like it is.
    Fourth, we’re engaged with a force that violates the letter and spirit of restrictions on peacetime and wartime combat. It’s not necessary to declare war to take the actions we have. In fact, one of the most frequently heard complaints is that we aren’t treating enemy combatants like prisoners of WAR. To suggest that the purpose of engaging a war is to avoid legal restrictions is ridiculous. Far from it, for every strategic advantage gained by the declaration, we accepted new restrictions on our actions.
    In fact, our declaration of war drew the immediate attention of the world’s humanitarian groups and told everyone, “Pay attention closely to what we do.” (That was kind of the point! We wanted the world to know how we respond to foreign attacks.)
    In closing, you managed to express more misunderstanding in a single sentence than John Kerry could in an entire campaign speech. That is a truly remarkable accomplishment.

  47. onecent Avatar

    Hey, Shelley, talk about hyperbole:
    More people will die in this country because of untreated illness due to lack of health insurance, and lack of health care, then because of terrorism.
    That’s ridiculous. No one dies untreated in this country because of no insurance. If you don’t have insurance, you get qualified under Medicaid or a tax supported indigent fund.
    And not without thinking of the longterm consequences of invading a country, when there was no demonstrated need for such hurry.
    Hurry?!!! It was almost a year and a half after 9/11 that boots hit the ground in Iraq with all of the machinations at the UN, plus congressional approval, in between.
    Shelley, have you seen any mass demonstrations occuring in Iraq demanding Saddam reinstated or in Afghanistan demanding the Taliban back? Without that factor, liberated appears a better description, my dear.

  48. Paul Zrimsek Avatar
    Paul Zrimsek

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by bad website design.

  49. onecent Avatar

    One more question, Shelley:
    I do believe that the US, in effort with other countries, should look at long term cross border efforts to eliminate terrorism.
    Explain to us just how that would work given Mexico’s refusal to assist in policing their border as it needs the US dollars returned to their economy via migrant laborers easy access. Come on, Shelley, give us your improved plan at the borders.
    …remember planes have been blown up by terrorist activities for decades now…..along with boats, trains, cars, the WTC, embassies, discos, synagogues, schools, Buddhist statues, buses, men, women, children, pets, vegetation, and just about damn near everything that strikes their fancy.
    Maybe your amnesia of terrorist activities is why you still think it is a police action.

  50. Trump Avatar

    And not without thinking of the longterm consequences of invading a country
    Oh, you mean like ending the mass graves and childrens jails and giving them a workable, fair constitution as a framwwork for the future? OH, THE HORRRIBLE CONSEQUENCES!

  51. Shelley Avatar

    onecent, you sure as hell don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to medical access. So how does someone 45 get Medicaid? And exactly what indigent fund are you talking about? The one in california that was just cut by 70% because Arnold baby wanted to lower car license fees.
    Please, come in here and tell us all how to get free, good, basic health care without insurance. And tell us all about your personal experience using it.
    As for the terrorists, what terrorists? The IRA in Northern Ireland? How about the Basques in Spain. Let’s talk about the Timothy McVeigh, shall we? How about the people blowing up abortion clinics. No?
    Then which faction in Iraq are we talking about? The Shiite? Or is it the Sunni?
    How about the dozen or so groups in Asia, not to mention the 20 or so operating in Africa.
    And you’re talking about neighbors, ever travel to the South of Mexico? I bet not.
    Now, who exactly is the world at war with? Who should we bomb or invade to take care of ‘terrorism’?
    By your words, I’ve lived a hell of a lot longer than you and have seen the action of ‘terrorists’ a lot more than you have. And I will say again, this country’s biggest concerns are health care, jobs, the deficit, and the environment. But that doesn’t suit you, who only want Bush, because you want to see blood and guts spilled. Makes you feel powerful.
    Children. I’m wasting my time with children.

  52. Shelley Avatar

    I have an idea — everyone here who wants a genuine debate with intelligent people, leave. Now. Because you’re not going to find it in this thread.

  53. Andrea Harris Avatar

    So we should just give up? We should just abandon the war against fundamentalist terrorists and start worrying about who’s going to pay for our Depends? Please, Shelley, leave. You’re the big baby here. It has already been pointed out to you that people can, and do, in fact, get health care even without medical insurance in this country. If they can’t pay their bills they can’t pay them. Having medical liens against your credit isn’t such a great thing, but it’s better than the national health care systems of other countries, where you get put on a waiting list for some procedure we take for granted here, and if you die before that kidney is available or whatever — well (shrug), the peoples gotta have their free health care!
    But enough about health care. You were disagreed with, and you whined and stamped your little cyber feet and called your opponents “children.” Real grown up.

  54. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Oh yeah — we’re for the war on fundamentalist terrorist movements because we “only want to see blood and guts spilled.” I would call you a f***king b***h, but that’s against Jeff’s rules, as well as being an insult to f***king b***hes everywhere.

  55. Shelley Avatar

    First — apologies Mr. Jarvis for blowing my cool. People who talk about how ‘easy’ it is to get medical care in this country without insurance and without money tend to do that to me.
    That said, Andrea, exactly what are we to do to eliminate the terrorist threat so that you sleep comfy at night? Exactly what should we do, and how much money and our government’s efforts should be spent on this. No, really I want to know. When is enough, enough for you? What invasion should we do, what people should we kill, what fences should we put up, what countries should we threaten?
    What’s your plan? When it is enough, enough?
    Mr. Jarvis, this is a question to you, too. When is enough, enough? What will it take for you to feel safe?

  56. Jeremy Avatar

    Speaking as a Libertarian, no one is owed health care merely for existing. Much like they aren’t owed food or a ferrari or anything.
    Admittedly, health care isn’t cheap, but if you are poor (like I am), there are alternatives. You can actually pay for the doctor yourself (my god! What a shock – paying yourself) or go to a charity driven clinic. You can also purchase your own medical insurance. (Though insurance is largely based on the same premise as socialism, that the average person pays in more to the system then they get out)
    I would also point out, medicine would be a lot cheaper for the poor if not for the trial laywers who sue doctors every chance they get (and just happen to support the Democratic party every chance they get as well). Probably the biggest expense for doctors is malpractice insurance, and so probably accounts for 50% of your doctor’s bill.

  57. Jeff B. Avatar

    Shelley, I’m gobsmacked at the immaturity of your argumentation. For someone who claims to live a long time, you either have the mentality of a child on this issue or are entering into your second childhood. Your ENTIRE argument is “Since we have no good plan to end the terror threat, we should ignore it! Focus on something else.”
    DO YOU REALLY MEAN THAT? FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY, CAN YOU REALLY MEAN WHAT YOU SAID?

  58. Jeremy Avatar

    Here’s how to make the world safe from terrorism – kill or imprison every terrorist, topple every regime that exports it.
    It’s actually not too difficult a concept.
    Basically the same as every war – defeat your opponents before they defeat you.

  59. Jeff B. Avatar

    P.S. You don’t have any “right” to health insurance either. To argue that is to make yet another childish ‘me me me me!” argument. Why on earth are you owed health insurance for merely existing? We do not live in socialism, and only a fool would want to put themselves under that yoke.
    But then you’re apparently quite the fool. Willing to sacrifice economic freedoms, American dynamism, and our world power (which springs from our capitalist dominance) all so YOU PERSONALLY don’t have pay dentist fees. Selfish bint.

  60. Jeff B. Avatar

    And yes, I’m quite angry right now. Spain’s populace has stuck their heads in the sand and fled into the arms of appeasement…and I realize that we have people who share the exact same mentality, like Shelley, living here as well.
    Nevertheless, I’m sorry for harsh words. But you DO have a lot to answer for. Again: do you really propose we should ignore terrorism and focus on health care?

  61. onecent Avatar

    And tell us all about your personal experience using it. I’m on the provider side of the equation, and I will repeat again, that no one is denied adequate care in this country because of lack of means. It is unethical and illegal. If you are not indigent, but have no insurance, you will be asked to pay on a sliding scale. Get it.
    As for the terrorists, what terrorists? ALL TERRORISTS. Or in your classification of terrorists do you think some less reprehensible than others? What’s your point?
    And you’re talking about neighbors, ever travel to the South of Mexico? I bet not. Bad Bet. Unless you you want ot speculate where my hometown is in proximity to the Mexican border.
    By your words, I’ve lived a hell of a lot longer than you and have seen the action of ‘terrorists’ a lot more than you have.
    You need to re-read my comments. Unless you have a comprehension problem or hyperventilation and a monitor covered in spittle have clouded you vision, I made no claim to your age or life experience.
    Children. I’m wasting my time with children
    Adio, Shelley, your grandiosity and hyperbole were wasted on us.

  62. onecent Avatar

    Andrea, exactly what are we to do to eliminate the terrorist threat so that you sleep comfy at night?
    Hey, Shelley, didn’t you have a few questions posed to you that weren’t answered like a requested elaboration on your comment”long term cross border efforts to eliminate terrorism” would work?
    OK, healthcare issues makes you loose your cool, but set an example here for the children. Please.

  63. Shelley Avatar

    First, I did not say ignore terrorism. I said that this should not be the first priority with the president. I still agree with this — it should not be the president’s highest, or only, priority.
    Second, by cross-border I meant that we need a multinational effort to fight terrorism, not a US dominated solution with a few of our friends. And we need long term plans, not short term reactions.
    As for health care, many of the open clinics have had to close their doors because local governments do not have the funds to keep them open. There is no open clinic in many cities, and especially in smaller towns. What happens is that people use emergency rooms after they get too sick to ignore the problem. Many times this can be too late to help them.
    The laws as to who hospitals can take or not vary by county to county, state to state. Most counties have a county hospital for ‘indigent’ people — many of which are working families that can’t afford 900.00 a month for insurance. But have all of you ever been in one of these, looking for help? Seriously?
    Ask one of these families what scares them more: getting attacked by terrorists, or getting seriously ill. And if you think that society does not have an obligation to its people when it comes to health care, why should it then have an obligation to its people to protect them from terrorists? Or even regular crooks? Or even a home fire? The original fire companies in this country were subscription based. That was the original ‘insurance’. Let’s return to that. Why not? It’s no different.
    However, we’re not going to change each other’s viewpoints. Too far apart in what’s important to each of us. I normally just pass on these discussions but someone asked me to give Mr. Jarvis a closer look see and I have the last few weeks. We, Jarvis and I, don’t have anything in common, and I can’t help thinking this extends to these discussions, too.
    That’s cool, but time to just move on for me.

  64. Chris Scott Avatar
    Chris Scott

    No “Defense” on the main page, but how about FOREIGN POLICY…whaddya think that is?!?!

  65. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Good-bye, Shelley. You’ll be protected from foreign killers as much as humanly possible despite being nothing but an obstacle with your hand out, though of course “humanly possible” isn’t enough for useless dead weights like you. No, I don’t have anything in common with someone whose main concern is getting free health care for illnesses real or imaginary. And the rest of the commenters here have already provided the same answers I would. As for making me “warm and comfy in my bed,” I’m not the one who seems to think that that should be the chief target of my tax dollars.

  66. capt joe Avatar
    capt joe

    Wow, gone for a few hours and a food fight breaks out.
    Yes Shelley, I did address my comment to you. I thought it was self evident.
    Oh, and your ad homs, the only reasonable response is, “I know you are, what am I”, repeat 1000 times taking turns.
    The idea that terrorism is a police action only works is if no one is trying to game the system. If all countries are working to eliminate terrorism then I agree it would be straightforward.
    Unfortunately, some countries manipulate and use these groups to obtain advantage where they cannot do so in any other way. Look for example at middle eastern states. Individually or collectively they cannot challenge the military, political, or economic power of the first world. Now there are many reasons for that and the root causes argument of poverty doesn’t wash.
    Most middle eastern states (except Israel) are despotic and inefficient. For these states to maintain their hold on power they need a scapegoat. That scapegoat is everyone that has something they don’t, zionist plots, evil US, etc.
    So once these states are in the game of protecting terrorists, they are stuck. The only way to remedy it is to change the governments. In democratic states this is relatively easy. In despotic ones….
    In other cases, these state players use terrorist to unbalance their opponents and weaken them.
    The key issue in this type of terrorism is that they are state actors (the taliban, Saddam, Iran, etc) and non state actors such as AQ. Sometimes these groups work together and sometimes not.
    With the 9/11 attack, OBL was asked (on tape) what he thought the US would do afterwards. He laughed and said he expected a lawsuit. He did not expect any real action other than a barrage of cruise missles, a few dead camels and a few holes. What Bush did was unexpected. All he wanted was the withdrawal of the US from the world stage. He felt that they (no one else) destroyed the Soviet Union. Since (to his way of thinking), the US was weaker, then they would be easier to defeat. After all, he had the last 2 decade to compare, the withdrawal of the Marines in Lebanon, the withdrawal from Somalia after a few deaths. He honestly thought that the US did not have the stomach for any of this.
    So, a police action approach would achieve nothing and would represent a return to the 90s.

  67. onecent Avatar

    The laws as to who hospitals can take or not vary by county to county, state to state.
    COBRA is a federal law. Most other healthcare laws are federal too. Try Google for details. Spoon feeding you isn’t a priority for me. Also, an army of litigating attorneys would jump a hospital in a minute if it failed or fell short of decent care to anyone, same with walk-in clinics.
    There is no open clinic in many cities. Prove that.
    But have all of you ever been in one of these, looking for help? Seriously?
    Yep. I managed one affiliated with a university and a few hours from the Mexican border, Shelley. And, Shelley, this will kill you, but Big Pharma for profit companies enrolled many of our patients for free medications some of which were very expensive maintenance meds.
    So, Shelley, shut up.

  68. onecent Avatar

    Andrea, you’re my idol. You go girl.

  69. Andrea Harris Avatar

    capt joe and onecent, using reason and logic — that’s just mean!
    Keep it up.

  70. Sandy P. Avatar
    Sandy P.

    Could someone please tell me what global warming has to do w/the war?
    Or is it just trying to buy (gasp, horror!) allies?

  71. Sandy P. Avatar
    Sandy P.

    –More people will die in this country because of untreated illness due to lack of health insurance, and lack of health care, then because of terrorism. —
    Um, Shelley, I believe it’s Marginal Revolutions which has some interesting stats on who and who does not have HC. Older postings, will probably have to do a search.
    Might surprise you.
    Lots are small business owners.

  72. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Instapundit couldn’t find the Madrid entry because he didn’t want to. IT WAS RIGHT THERE, but he was so intent on smearing Kerry, he went ahead and shot off the mouth. Lying liars.
    Oliver, you moron, Glenn found it and linked to it. (I know — I found the links and put them in a previous comment here.) He even apologized for having missed it at first. I realize that “liar” has lost the implication of purposeful malice in modern Leftie-speak, but try to remember that some of us still speak more or less standard English.

  73. Sandy P. Avatar
    Sandy P.

    –Please, come in here and tell us all how to get free, good, basic health care without insurance. And tell us all about your personal experience using it.–
    Why should it be “free?” And now you’re talking about basic health care. What is basic HC?
    What do you want, Shelley, and why do you want to throw over the best med system in the world for about 5% of the population? Surely we don’t need something so drastic as NHC which is bankrupting other countries, especially since the deficit’s so high in the first place?

  74. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Children. I’m wasting my time with children.
    SO you’re leaving? Good.
    (PS. It’s actually against the law for a hospital to refuse treatment in the ER, whether or not the person is insured or able to pay. This turns the whole issue into an invisible tax on the stockholders and paying patients, but the one thing we don’t have is a system in which sick people go untreated except by choice.)

  75. Dinosaur Avatar
    Dinosaur

    I am a small business owner (2 employees) who would be adversely affected if taxes were raised. And health care, and insurance, is very, very important to me. I want countries invaded that pose a threat to USA. The Patriot Act does not bother me. I’m voting for Kerry.

  76. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    That said, Andrea, exactly what are we to do to eliminate the terrorist threat so that you sleep comfy at night? Exactly what should we do, and how much money and our government’s efforts should be spent on this. No, really I want to know. When is enough, enough for you? What invasion should we do, what people should we kill, what fences should we put up, what countries should we threaten?
    What’s your plan? When it is enough, enough?

    Shelley, I don’t know what Andrea and Jeff think, but there’s actually a very good model from history: how worried are you about piracy? It’s very similar to terrorism historically; it’s a phenomenon, not a state or particular actor, just as some people claimed as an argument against a “war on terror”; it’s characterized by small groups of independent actors, rather than by being an action between states.
    What’s more, like piracy, terrorism has a serious logistical problem: you need to somewhere to train terrorists, someplace to write and print your documents and manuals, some mechanism to indoctrinate your people. To do this, you need geography: a place that will tolerate you. You need a reliable supply of funds and a way to bank them and get at them. You need a sufficient number of people to supply you with cannon fodder.
    In other words, you need states that will allow you to operate.
    Just like piracy, terror will be finished as a means of politics when it becomes clear that no state can tolerate, or afford to tolerate, the logistics of terror.
    As things stand right now, Afghanistan is gone as a source of logistics; so is Iraq. There may still be terrorists there, but neither one is a source of logistics any longer. Libya is sweating, and probably no longer a threat; Saudi Arabia’s ability to provide financial support is much weakened; Iran’s “mullarchy” looks like its teetering. The Palestinian kleptocracy is losing control as the Palestinian people figure out that they’ve been played for suckers in order to let Arafat put a billion dollars away in Swiss banks; in the mean time, at least one major source of financial support is gone, and it’s increasingly clear the forces calling for “peace” were actually just protecting their piece of a very large baksheesh pie. And if Baby Assad has any sense at all, he realizes that if he gets caught helping anyone very openly, he’s going to be in the cell next to Saddam.
    We’ve dealt with a lot of the problem areas, and frankly I don’t think the other bigs ones (like North Korea) can survive their own inherent contradictions. (Pretty quick, if nothing else, the remaining North Koreans will catch the “Beloved Leader” and eat him.)
    The War on Terrorism will end when no nation-state sees terrorism as being to its advantage.
    And that day may be coming sooner than we imagine.

  77. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Charlie: my comments are above, but in any case, I’ll bet Shelley, and people like her, simply flash on that Johnny Depp movie when you mention “pirates.”