Fear

Fear

: Al Gore keynoted a conference on fear at the New School last week and Edward Rothstein in the NY Times exposes the rhetorical game they played there, belittling fear of terrorists as the external enemy while amplifying fear of the Bush administration as the internal enemy.

The irony couldn’t be more obvious: Gore accuses Bush of using fear of terrorism to sell his agenda, while Gore uses fear of Bush to sell his man, Dean.

: “Beginning with former Vice President Al Gore, who delivered the keynote address, speakers asserted again and again that the American government is preoccupied with instilling fear,” Rothstein writes.

But the dominant idea was that, as the conference’s thematic statement put it, fear was being “encouraged by our government and exacerbated by our media.” It was compared with the irrational fear of Communism and the perversions of McCarthyism. It was described as part of a counter-constitutional coup by a radical right.

Of course, I find that utterly offensive. I know personally how deep and real the fear is. I felt the searing heat of a jet exploding on my face; I breathed the dust of their destruction into my lungs; I saw the lives lost with my eyes. I do still live in fear, a very real fear. To dismiss that fear as an irrational variant of McCarthyism is to dismiss reality of the thousands of lives lost in that very real attack and to portray as harmless ideologues the terrorists who waged it; it uses the attacks against us to wage a self-serving political attack within. I am most disturbed that Gore — for whom I voted — is leading this attack.

Mr. Gore asserted that a “powerful clique” had the run of the White House. We were being ruled, he said, by a president with a “determined disinterest in the facts,” who “abused the trust of the American people by exploiting the fears of the American people,” and a Republican party that thinks of other Americans as “agents of treason.” The “machinery of fear is right out in the open,” he said, “operating at full throttle.” …

For the most part … fear of the administration was strenuously cultivated.

Rothstein demonstrates that the conferees, just like the White House, play fast and loose with the ties between Iraq and terrorism. They accuse the White House of tying the two together. Yet they refuse to acknowledge that it’s not Iraq we fear — or not just Iraq; it’s terrorism.

By narrowly focusing on aspects of the Iraq war, most speakers treated the answer as evident: fear was unjustified. Even if that assessment is granted for the sake of argument, what of the larger context of the war on Islamist terror? Didn’t the attacks of 9/11 involve something on a different scale than what the conference statement called a “small, determined band of fanatics?” Isn’t that a crucial point? What kind of enemy is being faced?

There was a reluctance to use the concept of an enemy to refer to anything but domestic political opponents.

Rothstein goes on to quote Lee Harris’s Civilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History, a new book with an “idiosyncratic brilliance and unrelentingly aggressive vision about the war on terror.” Harris, Rothstein writes, argues that we live “in a civilization with an intellectual culture that is reluctant to take the idea of an external enemy seriously; its enemies, though, have no such qualms.”

“We are caught,” Mr. Harris writes, “in the midst of a conflict between those for whom the category of the enemy is essential to their way of organizing all human experience and those who have banished even the idea of the enemy form both public discourse and even their innermost thoughts.”

For those prepared to accept even some of Mr. Harris’s premises, there is nothing to fear but the lack of fear itself.

And that was the core of my problem with Gore’s boy, Howard Dean (and, I believe, the core of the voters’ problem with him). He put himself on the vanguard of this position, portraying the President as the enemy. He made it seem as if Bush were amplifying the threat and fear of terror but in saying that, Dean only tried to ignore the real threat and the real fear for the sake of his own political convenience. He tried to present us as a nation divided when, in fact, we are a nation united against a common enemy and that is not Bush (or Kerry or Dean or Gore). It is terrorism.

: It should come as no surprise at all that Eric Alterman was a conference speaker and that he just wrote a column lionizing Gore for what he said there.

I was amazed at Gore’s courage in calling the President to task for his (undeniable) manipulation of Americans’ fear of terrorism and also at Gore’s willingness to apply the same unflinching analysis to Bush’s economic policies, environmental policies and abuse of civil liberties. And he didn’t stop there.

Alterman says Gore “is taking on the entire media structure that makes it so difficult for his increasingly complex critique of the Administration’s policies to be heard. It’s not only their fault for lying to us; it’s everybody’s fault for letting them get away with it.”

Of course, Alterman says this from inside that very media structure (and he frequently and proudly points out that he is inside that structure and the rest of you are not). But that’s Alterman. No surprises there. Ever.

: I went to read Gore’s speech at Salon and became very disturbed.

Gore starts by exploiting and perverting the 9/11 attacks on us into an attack on the government:

We are meeting, moreover, in a city that has itself been forced to learn how to conquer terror. And because we are gathered very close to ground zero, we should of course begin our deliberations with a moment of respect and remembrance for those who died on 9/11 and for those who have been bereaved.

Terrorism, after all, is the ultimate misuse of fear for political ends.

Indeed, its specific goal is to distort the political reality of a nation by creating fear in the general population that is hugely disproportionate to the actual danger the terrorists are capable of posing.

That is one of the reasons it was so troubling last week when the widely respected arms expert David Kay concluded a lengthy and extensive investigation in Iraq for the Bush administration with these words:

“We were all wrong.”

The real meaning of Kay’s devastating verdict is that for more than two years, President Bush and his administration have been distorting America’s political reality by force-feeding the American people a grossly exaggerated fear of Iraq that was hugely disproportionate to the actual danger posed by Iraq.

How could that happen?

Could it possibly have been intentional?

Parse those words. Gore is saying that it’s not the Islamic terrorists who “distort the political reality of a nation by creating fear in the general population” but Bush who is doing that, even intentionally.

He is tying 9/11 and Iraq together in a logical knot more convoluted than any Karl Rove et al ever tied.

And under this rubric, Gore analyzes every act of the administration: Fear creates the economic policy, the energy policy, and, of course, he argues, the policy on terrorism and immigration.

The irony, of course, is that Gore and Dean themselves are trying to use fear — fear of Bush — to defeat Bush. They are doing everything they accuse Bush of doing, only they are directing their fear against Bush instead of bin Laden.

Gore then plays on the ultimate American political fear:

In many ways, George W. Bush reminds me more of Nixon than any other previous president.

Like Bush, Nixon subordinated virtually every principle to his hunger for reelection.

He instituted wage and price controls with as little regard for his “conservative” principles as Bush has shown in piling up trillions of dollars of debt.

After the oil embargo of 1973, Nixon threatened a military invasion of the oil fields of the Middle East. Now Bush has actually done it.

Both kept their true intentions secret.

Like Bush, Nixon understood the political uses and misuses of fear.

: Like Nixon, Gore understands the political uses and misuses of fear — and he demonstrates that all too clearly in this very speech.

: Listen to the rhetoric at this conference and from its conferees and you will hear a perverted agenda that diminishes the danger of our enemies and our fear of them and attempts to exploit a fear from within for cynical political purposes.

That was the battlecry of Gore/Dean — and they have lost. Thank God for the wise American electorate.

The essential question of this election is: Are we at war?

The necessary answer is: Yes.

Who would have thought that we must then ask the next essential question: Who is our enemy?

And the only answer can be: Terrorism.

This is not a war within and don’t believe those who say it is.

113 responses to “Fear”

  1. Glenn Avatar

    i am becoming even MORE embarrassed that i voted for Gore. yecccchhh.

  2. Robert McClelland Avatar

    Your right wing indoctrination is coming along quite nicely, Jeff. As usual, you are misinterpreting what is being said. The issue is not that terrorism isn’t a threat, it’s that the terrorism threat is being exaggerated out of proportion. Terrorism is not the greatest threat to the planet that Bush makes it out to be.
    Frankly, the AIDS epidemic in Africa is more of a global threat than terrorism is. That kills millions every year while terrorism kills, on average, less than a thousand. And that you and others like you make blustery statements like “the terrorists will not win. They will not destroy us,” only serves to show how frightened you have become. There is a far greater chance that you’ll be killed in a car accident than you will be by a terrorist. Does that make you fearful of driving/riding in a car?

  3. angell Avatar

    Robert–where in God’s name did you get the figure that islamic fanatics only kill a thousand Do you not consider the tens of thousands slaughtered in Nigeria and Sudan important enough to count. I believe the last time someone counted it was something like 6000 people die daily due to terroism worldwide.
    Here it is:
    Charles Krauthammer
    New York Post

  4. Terrye Avatar

    Robert:
    People seem to forget that Bush did not create, discover or invent terrorism. In fact Clinton said he told Bush that Osama Bin Laden was our greatest threat. Of course he did not really do much aobut him but then again he wrote the Iraqi Liberation Act and did not do much about Saddam either. In other words terrorism is a threat to Democrats also, whenever that threat is politically advantageous. At least the Republicans are consistent. And to make Bush the enemy is cynical and requires a very particular kind of dereliction of duty on the part of any socalled public servant. He can be a political adversary, but to call him an enemy is paranoid and bizarre.

  5. stubby Avatar

    Robert McClelland is paranoid and bizarre.

  6. Mike Avatar

    Jeff:
    Eventually you’re going to have to stop this. Lots of us who were there and spent days smelling burning metal are deeply offended by Bush’s use of scare tactics to get himself reelected. I don’t always agree with Gore, but I’m glad he’s willing to bring it up. It’s an important discussion.
    – Mike

  7. Robert McClelland Avatar

    >Robert McClelland is paranoid
    Really? I’m not the one who believes that an old man hiding out in a cave controls a shadowy network of terrorists spanning the globe and is capable of bringing the great democracies of the world to its knees unless we all praise Boosh and devote an ungodly amount of resources to battling this same shadowy network.
    >and bizarre.
    Why thank you.

  8. chris b Avatar

    Jeff says the essential question of this election is “Are we at war?” Robert McClleland’s answer makes me recall the old Tonto punch line: “What do you mean, WE, white man?” I tend to believe, like Michael Barone, that elections are usually about the implicit question of who we are.
    In my view, we’re not really at war. I came to that conclusion a few weeks after 9/11 when the shoe bomber guy was caught trying to blow up an airplane over the Atlantic and was afforded a bail hearing in the civil justice system instead of a quick military trial. Bin laden wanted to inflame the US into indiscriminate attacks on Islamic nations. Bush has chosen a longer term incremental strategy to address Islamic fascism with enough geopolitical force in it to prevent any serious challenge from the more bellicose parts of the electorate. If Robert McClleland can get Kerry to let him go on a speaking tour on his behalf, I’ll send a check to help defray the expense.

  9. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    No, Mike, I’m never going to “stop this.”
    Would you tell survivors of the Holocaust to “stop this”?
    Would you tell survivors of the Cambodian killing fields to “stop this”?
    This was more than smelling burning metal. This was watching mass murder.
    I will never stop this, Mike. Never.

  10. stubby Avatar

    Me too, Chris. McClelland could do for Kerry what Gore’s about to do/has done for Dean.

  11. angell Avatar

    THANK YOU, Jeff. Please never let us forget 911. And let us not forget the daily victims of these fanatics.

  12. Mike Avatar

    I reassert my point: Bush may be using fear to get reelected. I can remember (or

  13. angell Avatar

    I’m glad Gore isn’t president. Thank you, God.
    I am embarrassed for Gore, though.

  14. billg Avatar

    Robert, are you implying that we should not deal with terrorism until AIDS is eliminated? Or that we should wait until we build accident-free cars and highways?
    If so, how would you rank all these problems? Which should we tackle last?
    I doubt that really is what you are saying. What I read in your comments, however, is an illogical transference of your animosity toward Bush to something (anything?) he advocates. That is in keeping with others of your comments I’ve seen, which seem driven by an emotion-laden ideology that blinds you to reason and compassion. But, then, that’s what ideologies do.
    If you believe Bush is manufacturing fear for his own political advantage (a common tactic of all politicians, everywhere), how would you help the American people determine just exactly how frightened they should be?
    In truth, the actual level of risk we all face is not that important. What counts is that, after 9/11, Americans are permanently more frightened thatn they were before that date. In truth, we now know that we do have enemies. We spent 50 years getting used to being 30 minutes away from nuclear destruction by the Soviet enemy, but few Americans actually believed Soviet citizens actually held them in personal contempt. This enemy does. It’s illogical not to be afraid. Anything Bush or anyone else in the White House can do impacts that fear on the margins, if at all.

  15. Meezer Avatar

    I will decide just how much at risk I am, thank you, Robert, very much. I cannot believe the people who seem to have decided on a *tolerable* number of American terror deaths. As to cars, risky sports, etc., if I *choose* to risk my life for my own enjoyment that is *my* business. That is a hell of a lot different than someone in another country deciding to do that for me. I am very definitely at war. With or without the President, as need be.

  16. Robert McClelland Avatar

    >Robert, are you implying that we should not deal with terrorism until AIDS is eliminated?
    No, what I am saying is that the threat of terrorism is being blown out of proportion. What I’m saying is that all the rhetoric is being greatly blown out of proportion. Terrorism is a problem, not the greatest problem ever faced as some would have you believe. What I’m saying is that the amount of resources being directed at this problem is ridiculous and is being done so at the expense of other serious problems.
    Admittedly, America got whacked because it did not take the threat of terrorism seriously enough, but now America and Americans are wildly over-reacting to the threat.
    >If you believe Bush is manufacturing fear for his own political advantage
    I don’t believe that. I believe the fear is being used in order to further right wing agenda.
    >This enemy does.
    Except the threat that this enemy poses is being greatly exaggerated. There is not a radical Islamic movement bent on taking over the world, and even if there were, the chance of it accomplishing this goal is laughable. We, western democracies, are too entrenched in our beliefs for a bunch of extremists to be able to accomplish it. Even if a terrorist organization were to get an actual nuclear bomb and use it, it would not bring down any western democracy.
    Yet, the right would have you believe that our societies are so fragile and vulnerable to being brought down by a bunch of camel riding thugs that you’ll agree to anything they say needs to be done to protect us from this puffed up threat.
    There needs to be a response to the terrorist threat that resides in a medium between ignoring it and going wildly overboard, as the Bush government is doing.

  17. pooh Avatar

    Hi Angell,
    I have been sitting in my happy spot all afternoon trying to ponder your last post.
    What does it mean that you would thank god that Al Gore isn’t president?
    Why didn’t god just stop the attacks? Does he favor wahabism? Is he bloodthirsty? Did we deserve to be punished? If so, why?
    I figured that maybe what you were saying is that while god isn’t powerful enough to stop the attacks, and not powerful enough to just have Bush win the election uncontroversially, he was just powerful enough to keep some chads from falling.
    Is god really that weak?

  18. Kerry Dupont Avatar

    My word people! Do you really think that Bush is using this “fear” to get re-elected? For what, 4 more years of power? (Boy, yeah all kinds of “right wing” activity has happened in the past 4 years. Military intervention in Kosovo wasn’t right wing, but in Iraq, hell yeah, because Kofi’s stamp wasn’t on it.) Let’s not forget, this isn’t a life appointment for cryin’ out loud.
    Now, if you want to talk about who was “obsessed” with getting elected in the first place let’s talk about the guy who didn’t sleep, eat, or practically breathe for the last hours of his campaign in comparison to the guy that made certain to make time for sleep and exercise. Personally, I prefer the not so desperate type as a leader in any situation.
    (I’m still depressed that Lieberman had to drop out.)
    And here’s another thing for you not so religious types. Look at the big picture. I was raised Catholic and was essentially agnostic for most of my adult life. However, I am smart enough to know from being raised in a religious environment, that a person that believes that they are going to have to answer for their actions in another world after death is going to weigh very carefully what is morally right in their religion. In Bush’s case, Christianity very obviously lays out it’s expectations in this area. Thus, the large monetary commitment to the AIDS effort in Africa. Thus, liberating millions of Iraqis from a tyrannical dictator.
    I know that religion scares a lot of people, but when you really think about it, who do you want making the big decisions, somebody that believes that they will be accountable to a higher force than themselves, or somebody that only has themselves to account to?

  19. anne.elk Avatar

    “And under this rubric, Gore analyzes every act of the administration: Fear creates the economic policy, the energy policy, and, of course, he argues, the policy on terrorism and immigration.”
    I don’t think Gore is saying this at all. I think Gore is saying that partisan beliefs and cronyism creates the policies and that hyping and amping the fear is the mechanism.
    Sounds about right. Heh. Indeed.

  20. anne.elk Avatar

    “Rothstein demonstrates that the conferees, just like the White House, play fast and loose with the ties between Iraq and terrorism. They accuse the White House of tying the two together. Yet they refuse to acknowledge that it’s not Iraq we fear — or not just Iraq; it’s terrorism.”
    Uh, actually, I think the point of Kerry, Gore, Dean, Clark, Edwards, et. al. is that it is exactly terrorism we fear, not Iraq and that the war on Iraq has been a terrible diversion from the war on terrorism.

  21. Yehudit Avatar

    Jeff, thank you for this essay. You nailed it. I’m so glad a NYTimes writer – of all people – called Gore, Alterman, etc. on their shit. This indeed should be the central issue of the election campaign. Maybe the Times is finally waking up? Even if Rothstein is a lone voice in the wilderness, the fact that his article is in the Times will get it wide readership.
    The blindness of these folks reminds me of the situation facing Jews who tried to warn everyone, including other Jews, about Hitler in the late 30s, and tried to get other governments to intervene. The actions of the Nazi regime were not secret – Hitler advertised his plans for the Jews and his progressive removal of their civil rights. Yet too many simply closed their eyes or explained him away.
    I always wondered how people could refuse to believe and act when the facts were staring them in the face. After reading your essay about this conference, now I know. It is sickening and frightening and enraging to see that so many intelligence politically savvy people have learned nothing from history.
    PS I’ve learned to just scroll past certain trolls because they say nothing new. McClelland is one and anne.elk is another. As far as I’m concerned they don’t exist. Not because I disagree with their POV, but because of their repeated way of making their case.

  22. chris b Avatar

    Robert McClelland wrote: “Even if a terrorist organization were to get an actual nuclear bomb and use it, it would not bring down any western democracy.”
    Remember George C. Scott playing General Buck Turgidson in Dr. Strangelove? He said (quoting only from memory) “I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed…but we’ll probably only have twenty or thirty million casualties, tops …depending on the breaks.”

  23. anne.elk Avatar

    No one is closing their eyes to Bin Laden. It’s the dems that want to go into Pakistan to get him, that want the 9/11 commission to get all the data they need, that want the missing 29 pages about the Saudis released.
    It’s the civil libertarians on the left and on the right that want the United States to resemble the United States and want our children growing up in that United States.
    P.S. Yehudit, how many times are you going to go on and on and on (very repetitively) about how you think I am a troll and that I don’t really exist for you? It’s kind of weirdly obsessive, and creeps me out — I wish you’d knock it off.

  24. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    “No, Mike, I’m never going to “stop this.”
    Would you tell survivors of the Holocaust to “stop this”?
    Would you tell survivors of the Cambodian killing fields to “stop this”?
    This was more than smelling burning metal. This was watching mass murder.
    I will never stop this, Mike. Never.”
    Got it, Mike?
    More than one of us feels that way.
    I’m with you, Jeff.

  25. Anonymous Avatar

    Robert, to argue that the threat is overblown is to imply the existence of a yardstick to measure the threat. No such yardstick exists. You believe the threat is overstated for to serve a right-wing political agenda. I believe the threat is, if anything, understated. As for serving a right-wing agenda, I would expect nothing less from a right-wing President and a right-wing Congress. That is how they see the world. There’s no need to propose conspiracy theories to account for their behavior. A left-wing President and Congress would seek to advance their agenda, as would a centrist government.
    As I said, the level of the threat is less important than the fact that it exists. Fear of terrorism is a qualitative fear, not a quantitative fear that remains dormant below a certain threshold. We now know that there are significant numbers of people in the world with the will, the intent, and the means to attack and kill individual Americans within the borders of this country. The American public was not aware of that threat prior to 9/11. They are now.
    It is immaterial if terrorists are trying to bring down the U.S. Government. Who cares? They are trying to kill people. That’s all that matters. There’s no morally acceptable middle ground, no “medium” path, for dealing with that threat.

  26. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    RMCC:”Even if a terrorist organization were to get an actual nuclear bomb and use it, it would not bring down any western democracy.”
    Oh, good. Everything will be okay, folks. Just because they kill a few hundred thousand people, it’s not like it will bring down civilization.
    I mean, to make an omelet you’ve got to break a few eggs, eh?
    And it’s not like it would be Toronto — just Americans.
    Oh, Robert, I’m so comforted.

  27. Kerry Dupont Avatar

    Ditto that Charlie.
    A Canadian can certainly speak for what is and isn’t “overblown” in our country, heh? We need to be told that I’m sure because we must be so close to it that we’ve lost perspective…
    or maybe we finally gained it.

  28. angell Avatar

    Read this and tell me we shouldn’t fear these idiots.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/document/zarkawi200402121818.asp

  29. FDR Avatar

    We have nothing to fear, but fear itself.

  30. chris b Avatar

    “No one is closing their eyes to Bin Laden. It’s the dems that want to go into Pakistan to get him”
    anne.elk: Can you name for me even one Democrat who has advocated this? Pakistan has said no to any US troops crossing its border. I assume this unamed Democrat is not calling for us to do it anyway and set up a military confrontation with Pakistan. So, therefore, we have to get Musharraf(sp?) to agree to let us go in. Does this Dem have any specific, tangible suggestions on how to persuade (or coerce, if we must) Musharraf to allow this? It won’t make him more popular domestically, and he’s just dodged two assasination attempts. If it’s in the interest of the US, I’d be for it, but I’m not sure your unamed Democrat has really thought this through. It sounds to me more like a debating point without any real substance behind it.

  31. anne.elk Avatar

    Howard Dean advocated for this over a year ago. Clark in December. Kerry too in December. Dean wanted to send our troops in. Clark Saudi Commandos. Kerry wanted to our intelligence ops and collaborations between the US and Pakistan.
    So the Dems have been wanting to get into Pakistan in one way or another for over a year.
    I found all of this on Google within two minutes.
    Bush is just now catching up.

  32. anne.elk Avatar

    By the way, when Musharraf pardoned the one person in the world most responsible for proliferation of nukes to the axis of evil, what was Bush’s reaction?
    Silence.
    And this from the Macon Daily:
    Kahn Job: Bush Spiked Probe of Pakistan

  33. Sandy P. Avatar

    Robert – –Frankly, the AIDS epidemic in Africa is more of a global threat than terrorism is. That kills millions every year while terrorism kills, on average, less than a thousand.–
    Well, that should help goo-goo sustainability arguments then, shouldn’t it? Help conserve those precious resources. Brutal argument? Yes.(& I thought the UN recently found it might not be as bad as they thought????)
    And anne??? Saddam was the largest money-launderer in the world. And pulling him out of his spiderhole enabled us to find out how sophisticated the nuke black market really was. Now Burma’s denying ties to Pakland.
    Well, I now have a sneaking suspicion why Tipper was on anti-depressants.
    anne– The dems have used “fear” to scare the elderly for 2 decades re: SS and medicare.
    Remember the phone calls during the ’96 campaign in FL? The late dem governor KNEW about them and looked the other way.
    The left getting their knickers in a twist ‘cos W’s using what could arguably be a low-level nuke attack (which was needed to bring down those towers) to get re-elected is priceless for the 2 decades of fear-mongering I’ve heard the left use to scare seniors.
    I’m not scared, people, I’m pissed.

  34. angell Avatar

    So do you advocate attacking Pakistan and forcing our way? I don’t exactly trust Musharaf to trade intelligence with him–good way to send our guys to martyrdom. I don’t trust Libya or Syria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia or Iran. We could always do what Clark did in Kosovo–bomb non stop from 30,000 feet. Might hit an errant train or a village or museum. Wouldn’t be the first time.

  35. quark2 Avatar

    Presumptious. Maybe the first nuke will be a Canadian city. :)
    No big deal though, it won’t bring down the government of Canada, unless of course it’s their seat of governing. But wait, that’s okay, it will be just a few folks that get turned into crispy critters.
    Some one in your face repeating redundantly for years that they want to kill you….and you ignore it? 1936.

  36. anne.elk Avatar

    Angell, I am not the military expert, and Pakistan with nukes does seem to pose a problem, agreed. But as I’ve pointed out, it’s a problem that the Dems have wanted to address for over a year.
    Whether that’s through covert or overt ops — I don’t know.
    I do know, that two years ago, I was yelling at the TV when Tora Bora was occurring when we had already learned not to trust the local Afghan and Bush did it all over again in Tora Bora and Bin Laden escaped.
    That’s water under the bridge, and the only thing I know for sure is that I trust Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Clark, McCain, and to prosecute the war on terrorism much more than I trust Bush. Bush is a war screw-up.

  37. angell Avatar

    anne.elk–you must have a death wish. I would not trust any of them with my cat let alone my life. Your Bush hatred is so bad you’d screw osama if it meant defeating Bush.
    You are a sad little person–so filled with hatred you’d sacrifice a nation to get one man.

  38. anne.elk Avatar

    Sigh,
    So let me get this straight, you wouldn’t trust McCain, Clark, or Kerry to protect you or this country, and you’re telling me how sad, little, and filled with hatred I am.
    You violated Drezner’s Lemma.

  39. Reid Avatar

    Robert said:
    “There is not a radical Islamic movement bent on taking over the world”
    Not anymore. Thanks to GW. But, it’s like spraying for bugs. You can’t just do it once and assume they’re gone for good.
    “Even if a terrorist organization were to get an actual nuclear bomb and use it, it would not bring down any western democracy. “
    I would venture to say that it would at least bring about a collapse of the global economic system as nations shut their borders to hunt for more weapons or, at least, prevent more from being smuggled in. What kind of death and destruction would arise from that chaos, I shudder to speculate.
    And, jolly Anne is now advocating the unilateral invasion of a nuclear armed nation full of Islamic fanatics that would send a thousand nuclear armed terrorists to our shores. Brilliant. You think we should go to the UN first and ask the permission of France, Germany and Belgium?

  40. anne.elk Avatar

    Uh, no, I am not advocating the unilateral invasion. Note that if we had done it two years ago, we would have had the coalition with us. Even now, we still would (hint: this is against Bin Laden not Hussein.)
    But as I said, I am not advocating that, I am saying that the dems have wanted to address that issue for over a year. How it gets addressed? Don’t ask me.
    But to quote our host:
    “The essential question of this election is: Are we at war?
    The necessary answer is: Yes.
    Who would have thought that we must then ask the next essential question: Who is our enemy?
    And the only answer can be: Terrorism.
    This is not a war within and don’t believe those who say it is.”
    Why aren’t we going after Bin Laden? Why aren’t we pressuring the Saudis?

  41. SB from LI, NY Avatar
    SB from LI, NY

    I’d like to take Robert McCleelan’s point a little further about the scourge of aids vs. that of terrorism. First, I’d like to list the ways I’ve heard of that the ravages of AIDS are spread:
    1. unprotected sex
    2. reused needles (for legal or illegal drugs)
    3. infected blood transfusions
    Now, the ways the ravages of Terrorism are spread:
    1. fly planes into civilian buildings
    2. suicide bombs in markets
    3. suicide bombs in subways
    4. suicide bombs in buses
    5. suicide bombs against Iraqis
    6. …
    Okay, now let’s look at the behavior that leads to being a victim of these terrible tragedies: Which ones are avoidable by responsible people, and which ones aren’t?
    1. Unprotected sex? Surely this could be avoided. In poor countries, this is more difficult, but people wouldn’t get infected by abstaining or protecting themselves. How much do condoms cost? Surely some U.S. money is used for that?
    2. There’s very little chance of using a used needle if getting legal drugs from a medical facility in the West. In poor countries, aid from around the world is surely enough for clean needles? Illegal drug use is also a difficult question, but at some level, it is voluntary behavior.
    3. Transfusions. Truly unavoidable by the ultimate victim. Proper screening must be/is being done, but sometimes infected blood has gotten through.
    Okay. Now, the behavior that leads to terrorist victimhood:
    1. Plane into building: going to work; putting your kids in day care; getting coffee; tourism…
    2. Market bombing: shopping
    3. Subway: going to work, shopping, school, etc.
    4. Buses: see 2. and 3.
    5. Iraq: volunteering to provide security for their “new” country.
    As bad as AIDS is, it can be avoided. Yes, I know that poor people want to have sex, but there are ultimately ways that they can be protected, even at a high dollar cost.
    On the other hand, without severely changing one’s lifestyle, terrorism can’t be avoided. The cost of terrorism is never knowing where or when you’re truly safe. Why all Americans should subordinate this cost to that of AIDS eludes me and many people I know.
    Of course, I hear that Liberals believe that the difference between them and Conservatives is that Liberals feel that, “we’re all in this together,
    which translates into, “If you contract AIDS by ignoring warnings, or you die in a car accident, or you die by jumping out the window of a deliberately-caused,towering inferno, then, hey, there’s nobody at fault. They are all results of mankind’s problems that should be weighted by how many people are affected, not by whether they were inflicted upon others by suicidal maniacs.”
    No, I didn’t get my fear from Bush’s speech. I got mine by watching the actions of Muslims, at least since 1980 in Iran. To say Gore is bringing up a good point to debate is BS. As I remember, right after 9/11 Hillary C. was insisting that her husband warned Bush about the Al Qaida threat, but he didn’t want to hear. Now that that’s no longer useful, she, Gore, Robert M and others are trying to tell me that Bush improperly stoke fear in me.
    My main fear in 2004 is that there may be enough people taken in by the Left’s fear-mongering and their own selective truths that a Dem may win. However, I do feel most Americans are too smart to let that happen.
    SB

  42. Reid Avatar

    “How it gets addressed? Don’t ask me.”
    If you have no idea how to do it, what is the basis of your criticism?
    “Why aren’t we going after Bin Laden? Why aren’t we pressuring the Saudis? “
    What makes you believe that you know we aren’t? When was your last top secret national security briefing?

  43. angell Avatar

    Anne.elk–you are suggesting we bomb the crap out of the Middle East? That’s why we need cooler heads like GWB. Being an arm chair general is easy—being one in a real war on terror is not. Osama will be caught. Then I wonder what the burr on your butt will be. There is nothing GW can do to please you–I hope you are a Canadian or a terrorist like that guy they arrested yesterday –Ryan Anderson AKA Amir some muslim name.

  44. Reid Avatar

    And, Anne, please explain to me why it is that taking out Bin Laden would be a silver bullet that would put a stop to terrorism? Would you feel that, with Bin Laden dead, we could return to the status quo ante vis a vis 9-11?

  45. Brian Flemming Avatar

    Jeff,
    When what conditions are met will the “War on Terror” be over?
    Have those conditions ever existed in the history of the United States?
    Are they likely to be met in the future?
    If not, how is a permanent “War on Terror” useful except as a fear-instilling device?

  46. Reid Avatar

    Well, I can’t wait all night for a reply. I would suggest to you the only way to capture the sense of invulnerability that prevailed pre-9-11 is for democracy to bloom in the Middle East and, that this is, in fact, GW’s grand strategic plan.
    And, thank God (or insert whatever expression of overwhelming relief you prefer) that he is the man making the plans and not Al Gore.

  47. anne.elk Avatar

    Well, that $1B per week in Iraq, and the fact that by name, Bin Laden has been missing from two SOTU addresses in a row informs me that he is not one of the President’s top priorities.
    I don’t think taking out Bin Laden would be a silver bullet. I don’t think we should return to 9/10/2001.
    But if you guys are so worried about Zarqawi’s memo, and terrorists with nukes, and terrorists with bio and chem and dirty weapons, and if you guys are for keeping padilla in jail and if you guys, like Jeff (like me) think terrorism is the enemy, than certainly a reasonable step to take would be to focus our attention on the mass murderer, financier, leader, and all around popular guy for terrorists known as Osama Bin Laden.
    “Am I suggesting we bomb the crap out of the Middle East?” No, I think you’re projecting again.
    You hope I am a Canadian or a terrorist? What does that even me? Ya know what, I don’t care. Best wishes to you angell, have a nice night.

  48. Reid Avatar

    “a reasonable step to take would be to focus our attention on the mass murderer, financier, leader, and all around popular guy for terrorists known as Osama Bin Laden.”
    Anne, that would do precisely diddley squat to rid the world of the scourge of terrorism and, in the short run, might even give it a boost, as retaliatory strikes were made.
    Remaking the Middle East is the way to change things. That is what we are doing.

  49. Reid Avatar

    “the fact that by name, Bin Laden has been missing from two SOTU addresses in a row informs me that he is not one of the President’s top priorities.”
    Oh, and Anne, if absence of something is proof enough for you, let me suggest to you that OBL has not been seen since Tora Bora and, the overwhelming likelihood is that he is dead and, the fiction that he is alive is likely being allowed to continue for strategic reasons.

  50. anne.elk Avatar

    Oh Reid, you just can’t keep your arguments straight or consistent.
    You ask me when my last national security briefing was, and now you’re telling me the CIA and all the other intelligence agencies have it all wrong when they say OBL is alive. Bush has it wrong when he says OBL is alive. Musharraf and Karzai and Blair have it wrong when they say he is alive.
    But Reid tells us that OBL is dead.
    G’night Reid, sleep tight, don’t let the bedbugs bite.

  51. Reid Avatar

    Anne, I think you need to reread my post more carefully. And, are you insinuating the means of my repose is infested with vermin?

  52. Steve Avatar

    And of course Al Gore would never stoop to mongering fear of something (like global warming) just to further his own political ambition.
    Can you say “projection”?

  53. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Angell, I am not the military expert, and Pakistan with nukes does seem to pose a problem, agreed. But as I’ve pointed out, it’s a problem that the Dems have wanted to address for over a year.

    Anne, that’s a serious point. I’m going to tell you a story from my days as an intel guy (which may come again, I’m interviewing next week) but I’m going to modify it so I won’t get arrested.
    Here’s the story: I was working with a group that was, um, tapping the Soviet’s tin cans and strings. An ongoing story in the news was that the Reagan administration was suspicious that the Soviets were building, um, special anti-bicycle weapons. The Republicans were saying “We too must build anti-bicycle weapons!” while the Democrats were saying “This is silly! Anti-bicycle weapons are years in the future, if they’re possible at all.” The Administration, as such, didn’t say anything about anti-bicycle weapons.
    While all this was going on, I was listening to can-to-can calls of anti-bicycle-weapon tests.
    See, the point is that we knew the Soviets were actually testing ABWs, but we couldn’t say because then the Soviets would know we had tapped their tin cans, and stop using them.
    If Reagan had said “We’re going to build anti-ABW defenses” the Soviets would know we felt we had some reason to suspect we needed them; somewhat the same prolem.
    In this case, if the Democrats say “we’ve got a plan to attack Pakistan”, Bush can say “ignore them I’m in charge.” If Bush says it, it’s an active threat, and lots of bad things happen — not least being that defenses on the Afghan-Paki border, and around bin Laden’s possible hideouts, get reinforced, making it harder and more dangerous to act.
    The point is that you can’t infer anything from Bush not saying something except that Bush isn’t talking.

  54. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Why aren’t we going after Bin Laden? Why aren’t we pressuring the Saudis?

    We’re closer together on this than you might think. But, see my little parable above, you don’t know we’re not.
    On the other hand, there’s been a fair bit of evidence that we’re doing something useful: the Saudis have acted against a lot of AQ recently (although you could make a case that it’s al Qaeda that’s pressured the Saudis); al Qaeda has been markedly less effective and less far afield than they had been; and there’s the al Zarkawi letter….

  55. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Anne, on the other hand, I think you’re mistaken about the right way to deal with terrorism. Back in the early 1800s, we had piracy, which is just terrorism on boats; the way it was handled, eventually, was when there was general agreement that it wasn’t acceptable by most countries, and wasn’t successful by the others.
    That’s really the only way we can end terrorism: by making it clear to the countries that support or permit terrorists to exist within their borders that it’s no longer in their interests to do so.
    If we succeed in doing so, then UBL is a side issue, or rather, getting him will be a desirable side effect — anyone who is still supporting him will either hand him over, or hand over his body.
    As it stands, Musharrif (sp?) now understands it’s life-and-death for him, and there are signs things are happening — but we can be pretty certain that what’s really happening is the last thing we’ll hear about.

  56. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    It is immaterial if terrorists are trying to bring down the U.S. Government. Who cares? They are trying to kill people. That’s all that matters.

    yeah, what you said.

  57. HA Avatar

    Eleven score and eight years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
    Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
    But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate — we can not consecrate — we can not hallow — this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
    Abraham Lincoln – with slight changes in bold.
    We must never take our nation’s blessings for granted. The struggle for liberty is eternal. Some of us understand this. Some don’t. And now our house is dividing against itself. Will it continue to stand? Nothing is guaranteed.

  58. chris b Avatar

    “I am saying that the dems have wanted to address that issue for over a year. How it gets addressed? Don’t ask me.”
    Anne-Do your party a favor and dig down into how they’d actually confront Pakistan. Saying that they want to address it (presumably because the Presidential candidates have said so while giving campaign speeches) and that you trust them to do so isn’t very persuasive to those of us who actually want to place pressure on Pakistan. You’re right that the pardon of Khan is a sham and a disgrace, but what would you do tangibly and substantively about it? If you can answer that question, we’d be arguing about POLICIES, not Kerry and Bush, which oftentimes turns into the same argument I used to have with one of my childhood friends as to who was better: Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett.

  59. Joe Peden Avatar

    Liberalism is some kind of disease, one involving thought processes. My model states that Liberals are mutants who exist because we provide a niche for them, even defending it for them. There are ways to strangle this niche. But as Bush has said, this war on terror is going to be a long one.: eternal, as HA so incisively stated.

  60. HA Avatar

    I wonder if any Democrat is capable of delivering a speech like this today:
    http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html
    If Bush gave this speech today he would be denounced as a war-mongering theocrat by the Democrats. It is heartbreaking to realize that a great party that once gave us leaders like JFK could have fallen so far.

  61. Kerry Dupont Avatar

    Again, echoing Charlie. I have many friends and family members in the military intelligence community. Though they can’t say exactly what is going on, their jobs themselves tell me that we are doing things in places all over the globe that aren’t publicized for all Americans to see. These include a job in Africa stemming terrorism, a job in the Pentagon as an Asian analyst (China and Koreas), and a job as a USN Commander flying missions all over the world tracking terrorists. Yes, it is true, we get “good info” and a plane is sent out to track one guy. How else do you think that approx 2/3 of known Al-Queada members have been captured or killed?

  62. JB Avatar

    I don’t necessarily see the Democrats taking Bush to task for the war on terrorism, but for the war on Iraq. They are 2 different animals. While the action in Iraq continues, we have siphoned resources from the search for the man who got this whole thing started.
    We need to start peeling the 2 actions apart when we make our criticisms. I think Gore has done that, based on his comments. I have been dismayed by the way that the War on Terror (which I support) has morphed into a means to justify our rather arrogant way of dealing with the international community in the time leading up to the Iraq invasion and our subsequent missteps afterward.

  63. Brent Avatar

    JB, all that international goodwill that we hear was wasted by Bush The Moron had all but evaporated just weeks after 9/11. Some of us remember the protests leading up to the Afghan war. I was in London a few weeks before the first bombs dropped and witnessed one of those “outpouring of goodwill” that strangely resembled and anti-American/anti-Bush/pro-terror rally. I wandered over to a lonely-looking table with a lone Iraqi manning it. He had pictures of dead babies, which of course was blamed on the Evil Americans and their Evil Sanctions. I told him not to worry, the sanctions would be lifted very soon, but not in the way he wished.
    So many people on the left really think we have all “moved on” from that time, when it was obvious – blindingly obvious – that after 9/11 guys like Saddam had very short lifespans to look forward to. Pathetic, really.

  64. Peg C. Avatar

    Jeff,
    I, too, am with you 100%. Please NEVER STOP. I cannot read all the comments here by the useful idiots, idiotarians, and appeasers, but there are a number of realists here that articulate my view. Yes, we ARE at war. Yes, many, many in this country refuse to believe so PURELY because a Republican is in the WH.
    I am a former lifelong Dem and Lefty (my switch happened in 1998 so 9/11 was not at all a surprise to me) and the arguments on the Left are all too familiar and beyond tiresome. I, too, was in Manhattan when the planes struck. I had not been there for years but my husband and I arrived at Grand Central 30 minutes before the first plane struck. We were there for the day (not even) to visit a decorator showroom. As we later raced back towards GC, fighting our way south through crowds rushing north, pandemonium all around us, all I could think was “everything, EVERYTHING has changed forever.” I knew it had, at that moment, in many ways we have seen occur. In particular, the loss of almost all credibility on the pomo/transi/multi-culti Left. I believe, and hope, that what we are experiencing now are the slow and agonizing death throes of precious shibboleths and ideologies that led to the threats and attacks we now face. I believe we face the harshest, most treacherous, most critical time of our age, right now. I am agnostic, yet I thank God every day that W, and not Gore, is president. In all honesty I do not know who else would have the will and cojones to steer us through this, and there is absolutely no guarantee that we will survive this. Terrorism and the terrorism-WMD combination are without a doubt the greatest threat this world has ever known. I am afraid the very success of Western civilization is responsible for our inability to see what true evil is and deal with it. The big question to me is are all successful civilizations doomed to cannibalize themselves?

  65. Harry Avatar

    If OBL is anything he is a publicity whore. We haven’t seen him in anything remotely dated since Tora Bora. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that OBL is splattered on the wall of a cave never to be heard or seen from again.
    As far as US military presence in northern Pakistan goes, my guess, and it is still just a guess, is US special forces and the CIA have been in there at least since the beginning of the Afghanistan campaign.
    And JB as far as the international community and their self-interests are concerned; I would rather be friendless and alive than multilaterally adored and dead. So screw ’em. To wit, if anyone feels the need to grovel and apologize to the Europeans, the UN, or whomever for protecting yourself, your family, your friends, your neighbors, your fellow American citizens, and our country then please do it in the privacy of your own crappy universe’s toilet, preferably on your cell phone and not in public, it’s friggin’ embarrassing. Nobody likes a sissy. Well maybe the French and Canadians do.

  66. angell Avatar

    And I think it is all related. For years Clinton sat and the world watched the muslim fanatics grow bolder and bolder. Rohan Gunaratna, head of terrorism research at the Institute for Defence and Strategic Studies in Singapore, said that the United States and the international community sat by for a decade as Afghanistan became “a terrorist Disneyland” where muslim fanatics were trained and assaults were planned. Clinton kept telling us it was a handful of bad apples and no biggie. In January, 2000, meeting in Malaysia the Sept. 11 attacks and other plots were discussed but absolutely no action was taken. We just waited to be attacked. Terrorism by islamic fanatics such as the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center can be blamed on Iraq working with and hiding behind the militants. I know Saddam pretended to not like Al Queda but I see Ansar Islam as Al Queda by another moniker–same s—, different pile so to speak. I believe the assumptions made by Stephen Hayes about the Osama /Saddam connection.
    {http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp}
    Bin Laden was emboldened to strike on U.S. soil because we never retaliated for previous terrorist attacks by Hezbollah, we did not exact reprisals for the Beirut car bombs in 1983 that killed about 300 people, mostly Americans, at the U.S. Embassy and Marine barracks. Nor did we take revenge for the kidnapping of 90 foreigners, including 17 Americans, for the rest of that decade. We allowed Saddam to play games for 12 years, taunting us and laughing at us. This war was declared a long time ago–we just chose to allow ourselves to be killed and do nothing to retaliate–and the terrorists grew braver and more ambition believing that a bunch of wussies would either cover up the fact that the attack was by fanatic muslims or blame it on a handful. They laughed at how our own people turned on our troops in Vietnam and how we slinked away in Somalia. Well, that handful is now several hundred millions strong. And since Black September, if all else fails, we can always blame it on the Jews. If Israel would cease to exist we would all be smoking weed, picking flowers, and singing peace songs.

  67. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    JB, the thing is, pulling the two apart is a mistake that shows a serious misunderstanding of the War on Terror. Whatever you may think of the connections between UBL and Saddam, there is simply no question that Saddam was supporting terrorism, and had been since before the invasion of Kuwait. (At a time when “sanctions” were supposedly starving Iraqi children, Saddam was sending $25K payments to exploding Palestinians. Unless you’re one of those who peculiarly suggests people blowing up buses full of civilians isn’t “terrorism”, the connection is just utterly well-documented and was quote overt.) Among the remaining major supporters, there are Syria, Iran, and apparently substantial factions in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
    Logistically, Iraq is right in the middle of that. As long as we are in military control of the area, the terrorists’ logistics are substantially impared. The funding is reduced, and communication (and transport as part of that) is very much impeded. That’s significant.
    Tactically, now we’ve got a (relatively) friendly base in between Iran and Syria — there used to be substantial traffic between them. Now we’ve got hundreds of CIA and Special Forces operatives based on great big hard-to-close borders next to both countries, and at least in Iran we’ve got another fascist regime that’s beginning to have some major internal trouble.
    And from the standpoint of encouraging the others, we have the example of Saddam coming out of his hole, that apparently got Libya’s attention and led to unrolling the Pakistan/China/Iran nuclear materials black market.
    As I said above, the end of the War on Terror will be very much like the end of the war on piracy in the 1800’s — it’ll end when we know that countries recognize allowing terrorists to operate isn’t in their interest.
    The Iraq campaign has made a definite start on that.

  68. Reid Avatar

    “we have siphoned resources from the search for the man who got this whole thing started”
    Ah, yes, the “we can’t walk and chew gum at the same time” meme again. Fella’, the resources of this nation are VAST. Just leave it up to the professionals, will ya’?

  69. JB Avatar

    “Ah, yes, the “we can’t walk and chew gum at the same time” meme again. Fella’, the resources of this nation are VAST. Just leave it up to the professionals, will ya’?”
    Perhaps you haven’t been reading about the fact that the various groups whose activities were totally disrupted in Afghanistan are now starting to form up again because of the diversion of most of our assets to Iraq. Or the professionals who are complaining about this very thing.
    The resources of this nation are indeed vast. The military resources are not, alas, up to the task of being stretched all over the planet. The professionals know this, bud.

  70. Joe Peden Avatar

    Hey, Reid, do you realize that when Liberals say things indicating your valid reduction of their logic to zero-sum thinking, that they are talking about their own thought processes? They can literally not hold more than one thought in their minds at the same time. Different thoughts pop up displacing completely the previous ones in a neverending succession of chaos. This is why they like pop-ups on their computer screens, or at least why pop-ups are effective. I’m serious.

  71. David Crisp Avatar

    When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, we knew instantly exactly what we had to do, no matter how much it cost in money and lives or how long it took. The War on Terrorism is far less straightforward. The terrorists’ strategy is to damage and disrupt their enemies as much as possible with the least use of resources. Overreaction to terrorism is key to that strategy. They want us to think they are more powerful and dangerous than they really are. So we can never all just pull together as we did against Germany and Japan until the job is done. We have to reassess on a nearly daily basis exactly what the threat is and how to react most sensibly with the least danger and disruption to everyday life. It’s a tricky line to walk, and it is perfectly proper for Al Gore and all loyal Americans to question exactly where on a given day that line should be.

  72. Lurch Avatar

    AIDS. There is absolutely nothing NOTHING we can do to stop AIDS. It’s a virus. We can’t stop a virus. We can react to it, but we can’t stop it.
    We also can’t stop the people of Africa from having unprotected sex in bad environments. We can’t force Gay Men to stop having unprotected anal sex. We can’t stop intravenous drug users from using dirty needles, nor should we (searching out users and stopping them…).
    We can spend money trying to educate risk groups to turn away from risky behaviour but that’s about the extent of it. It’s up to the individual person to control his or her own behaviour, not any government or NGO.
    As it is, AIDS gets a disproportionately high amount of attention as it is. There are far more diseases that we can do research and better spend our money on. The various cancers, Heart disease.. AIDS gets so much attention because it’s politically correct to do so.
    Onto the subject of Gore. He’s a bitter loser. His voice is irrelevant except to the looney left now. He started off his career as a moderate and now he’s a laughingstock. He lost the election as it is defined by our constitution. He failed to win enough states to get the electoral votes. When I hear a democrat complin that Gore won the election and should be president, I have to laugh at their ignorance of how we elect presidents in this country. It’s irrelevant how many popular votes he got. It doesn’t matter one bit.
    Gore now has no constituency except the raving left, who’s horse was Howard the angry dwarf. Everytime he speaks he just adds to his irrelevancy. His supposed emotion is pure fake, as was his kiss of Tipper during his presidential campaign. He is a crass opportunist and couldn’t carry his own state or Billy Jeffs state. And now as he drifts farther to the left he becomes shriller and shriller.
    Who would have thought that out of the two running on the Democrat ticket in 2000 that leiberman would be the more sane and statesman like. I thank whatever creator there is, every day, that a ranting lunatic like Al Gore wasn’t elected, he was rejected.

  73. angell Avatar

    JB–problem is that the terrorists are operating all over the planet–and have been for years. The more we do nothing anywhere, the bigger and bolder they grow. Soon they will be demanding a sharia state in Europe……….

  74. Joe Peden Avatar

    Right, JB, as terrorists are not allowed to cross international borders, we had them cornered in Afganistan.

  75. standa Avatar

    The columm is piece of editorial trash.
    When the current Bush administration took office in 2001, little was made of the names that constituted Bush

  76. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    JB, I won’t make fun of you, but all you’re demonstrating is the difficulty of nailing jelly. We won’t win the War on Terror by making a masssed military action against their forces, because they don’t have forces — they’ve got a bunch of little bands of nutcases who can cross borders over and over again.
    What we know is that there are fewer and fewer places that are hospitable to it. Eventually they will all be inhospitable — and then the “law enforcement” model will work.
    As a side effect, millions of other people will be free.
    This is a Good Thing.

  77. anne.elk Avatar

    Yes Peden is correct. Liberals love pop-ups, conservatives do not, and that is indicative of our broken thought processes.
    Oh, well this lefty runs Mozilla and almost never has an unwanted pop-up.
    You guys make me feel like such a retard.

  78. Firebrand Avatar

    [To: Yehudit at LGF”>http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9861#c0099″>LGF]
    I read the Buzz”>http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9861#c0015″>Buzz Machine link. These apologists and irrational Bush haters in”>http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9861_BBC_at_the_Crossroads”>in the media and everywhere are so deluded. It’s beyond their comprehension to understand how irrevocably antithetical Islamism is to our way of life. Someone put a link on an LGF post yesterday explaining the pre-islamic, xenophobic mindset of Arabs for which the K’ran is apparently a codification.
    I met a guy at a bar in NH who has a company in NYC that was formerly at WTC. He told me that on the fateful day he cell phoned the office from a cab, 15 minutes late, asking his 24 employees, mostly sales staff to hang around for the meeting.
    Then it happenned — and leaving the cab he began walking to the towers, unaware of the shards of glass that cut him. Since his cell phone was then not working, he went into a store for payphone change to call his wife that he was OK. The clerk said that was bleeding. He then showed me the 16″ scar on his arm and the 8″ gash on his face that over a year later had not completely healed. And the emotional scars that probably won’t completely heal I mention as a reminder to all the erudite limosine liberals commenting at Buzz Machine, the liberal media, Al Gore, John Fucking Kerry, Terry McAuliffe, the Clintons, and any other assnuggets that I have not mentioned — you know who you are.

  79. Armed Liberal Avatar

    re anne.elk’s comments, I’m constantly amazed at the renewed interest in covert operations on the part of the current antiwar Left; I’m kinda gobsmacked that they have forgotten the moral and political (foreign and domestic) risks in that kind of activity.
    Given how confused I am on this, anyone want to try and explain it to me?
    A.L.

  80. Martin Lindeskog Avatar

    Thank G*d (I don’t use this word often due to the fact that I am an atheist) that Gore didn’t win the election in 2000. I saw Al Gore at a MTV show called “Choose or Lose” in 2000, and I must say that I was not impressed by his speech at our school (Southern New Hampshire University, Manchester). I am not a huge fan of G.W. Bush, but I like his cowboy style and I hope that he will continue the war against the Axis of Evil. Next stop should be the HQ of terrorism – Iran.
    Martin Lindeskog
    Gothenburg, Sweden.

  81. anne.elk Avatar

    Hey Armed Liberal,
    While I didn’t appreciate being attacked on your blog and quoted out of context since you hadn’t been reading or commenting on the prior Jeff Jarvis discussions, I’ll happily answer your question:
    You are confused because you see everything as black or white and because like Jeff and Roger and Michael, you frame everything in an us vs. them, with us or against us, enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of fashion.
    Me: I’ve always appreciated a good spy novel, and a good history of spying. I’ve always appreciated what the Mossad has been able to do. And what the CIA (et. al.) has been able to accomplish technologically, if not operationally.
    But yeah, spying on domestic organizations by the CIA, overthrowing legitimately elected governments, encouraging revolutions and then not supporting them in the crucial moments, putting known human rights violators into office, not telling American citizens when their children have been abducted, training the future dictators of current dictators, using drug money to pay for off-book operations, using the CIA to increase the stock prices of American Companies and companies the directors hold stock in, does it really take a liberal or savant to realize these are dumb things to do?
    By the way, your pseudonym scares teh bejebus out of me.

  82. Joe Peden Avatar

    So Anne, you almost never have an unwanted pop-up? Does this mean that you want some? I rest my case.

  83. anne.elk Avatar

    Yes Joe, it means I use Mozilla, so the pop-ups I get are ones I want: pop-ups from the bank’s epay service, pop-ups from a newspaper’s slide show, etc.
    But the pop-ups of porn, of speeding up my connection, of selling me insurance or mortgages, x-10 cameras, or a million other things — I NEVER GET THEM.
    Hey Joe, you’re technologically ignorant, and you’re bragging about it. So it goes for the rest of your posts.

  84. mary Avatar

    Jeff – thanks for posting this. I agree completely. On 9/11, millions watched helplessly as thousands of innocents were crushed into dust. Wealthy Islamists, financed by wealthy Saudis (including members of the Saudi government) carried out these attacks. They were motivated by the same thing that motivates Arab Islamists in the Sudan to murder innocents and enslave children

  85. Joe Peden Avatar

    My case is rested, Anne. I am satisfied with victory. Though I know you will keep popping up, out of your box, when someone turns the crank.

  86. Jeff B. Avatar

    anne.elk. –
    You find something scary about the idea of an “Armed Liberal?” As if left-wing views (social or otherwise) and a healthy respect for Second Amendment rights are antithetical?
    To me, that one off-handed comment unintentionally reveals more about where you’re coming from than a whole host of trollish comments.

  87. anne.elk Avatar

    Jeff, actually no I don’t think a respect for the 2nd Amendment is at all antithetical with liberal views.
    Nah, it was just a inside reference to a Roger Simon let’s bash anonymous posters blog. When, as an example, I used Roger’s friend the anonymous blogger Armed Liberal, and said that I post anonymously because I fear employers and stalkers and people with threatening names like the Armed Liberal, Roger banned me for slandering his bud.

  88. Ebb Tide Avatar

    I haven’t read the comments yet, but Jeff Jarvis, this was your best post ever!

  89. hierophant Avatar
    hierophant

    Robert McClelland: “There is not a radical Islamic movement bent on taking over the world, and even if there were, the chance of it accomplishing this goal is laughable. … Even if a terrorist organization were to get an actual nuclear bomb and use it, it would not bring down any western democracy.”
    (1) Counter-historical. Modern Western democracies have been brought down by far less. For example, Arab guerilla warfare of far lower intensity triggered events that toppled France’s Fourth Republic in 1958; and street marches almost toppled its Fifth Republic in 1968. Given this record, what could a terrorist nuke accomplish? What other ripple effects could it cause? And how should a policymaker assess and manage the risks of that occurrence?
    (2) False dilemma. The question is not “Will radical Islam take over the world?” The question is not “Will radical Islam topple any Western democracies?” (Although it most certainly could: see #1.) The better question is “How much damage will radical Islam cause the West before the West defeats it by increasingly dire means, and what will the world look like afterwards?”
    In the long run, my bets are on the West, especially America. But in the short-to-intermediate, to glibly dismiss any chance of the West getting badly hurt is foolish.

  90. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    But the aftermath of the September 11 attacks on the US ushered in a new era for American foreign policy, marked by an unprecedented belligerence and contempt for the norms of international law. This rabidly unilateralist stance on the part of the US raised many questions about the administration

  91. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    anne.elk – ahem

  92. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Charlie (Colorado)

  93. Peg C. Avatar

    Anne.elk:
    This *is* US vs. THEM. They have said so! We can play nice forever and all it will get us is murdered by the millions. *I* don’t say so; OUR ENEMIES say so. If you don’t have the moral clarity to see that, you epitomize everything that is wrong on the Left and everything that the rest of this country rejects. Just because you say things AREN’T black and white, right or wrong, with us or against us, doesn’t make you right. Catastrophe has a way of making everything clear and very black and white. Unfortunately, many of us will have to suffer or witness much greater catastrophe before we understand that.
    This danger that is grossly overestimated by W and co. in your opinion: what will you and your Lefty co-horts be shrieking if we suffer another terrorist attack while W is president? Yeah, that’s what I thought.

  94. Joe Peden Avatar

    Anne aint no troll. She’s more like an eternally wandering psychotic who might pop-up anywhere in town, and never sleeps. She does not live under bridges, but is always moving, moving, moving, popping up, moving….

  95. mary Avatar

    Charlie (Colorado) – In some circles, a 4% difference over a span of two years is low enough to be a statistical error. As far as I know, there has been no real decrease in the million $$ donations since the attacks against foreigners living in the kingdom.
    It

  96. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Mary, I see your point. On the other hand, the more pressure there is on Iran, Syria, and Pakistan, and the fewer places the AQ have to hide out, the more the Saudis will have to decide which side they’re on. Can’t make everything happen this week, but I still think the first derivative is in the right direction.

  97. Joel Thomas Avatar
    Joel Thomas

    It was President Bush and the Republicans who made terrorism a partisan issue in the 2002 elections. They are simply reaping what they sowed. It was they that divided the country between Democrats and Republicans on the terror issue and now that the issue isn’t working completely in their partisan favor, they are whining.
    A big part of the reason Dean fell is that the Republicans encouraged the Kerry line that Dean isn’t electable.
    Dean helped Kerry find his balls, so the end result will be positve in having a real debate about Bush’s foreign policy, which I consider to be reckless.

  98. Kat Avatar

    The reason Bush made it an issue because people like you would have preferred we sat back and pitied those poor oppressed millionaire allah chanting bastards who stole our planes and killed our people. The Democrats preferred to blame our policies and excuse the terrorists like they did for every attack of the past decade–just a small group of muslim fanatics. islam is peace, tomorrow pigs will fly.
    Kerry lost his balls when he became an activist against our soldiers in Vietnam. He desecrated the flag, he destroyed medals and he told outlandish lies. Kerry is like having a candidate from ANSWER or CAIR.

  99. Peter UK Avatar

    Al Gore says
    “Terrorism, after all, is the ultimate misuse of fear for political ends”
    Wrong! Terrorism is the precise use of fear for political ends.The whole principle depends on fear creating dissent and political instability.Terrorist groups are, by definition small and militarily weak and commit atrocities to make political points.The despicable attack of 9/11 was envisioned as the “one more push” that would drive the US to isolationism,that the Somalia effect would split the American people and the ruling elite.Observing the bitter political divide in America now during the primaries I’d say that has to some extent worked.Or if it had driven the US to disproportionate retaliation it would have suited the terrorists purpose equally well by increasing recruitment.It was also a demonstration of power to the world, that Islamic Fundamentalism was on the march.
    As a well wisher in the UK I hope you don’t let the argument of “What did you do in the war Daddy” get in the way of “What are you going to do about this one”

  100. mary Avatar

    Charlie (Colorado)

  101. Tim Avatar

    Joel Thomas,
    For you, and those who think like you, it’s forever September 10th. For the rest of us, it’s September 12th – until we win.

  102. Joel Thomas Avatar
    Joel Thomas

    The world changed long before September 11. But no one has demonstrated to me that Bush’s Iraq policy has made us or the world safer.
    The fact remains that Bush set the scene for use of terrorism as a partisan issue.

  103. Joe Peden Avatar

    Poor Joel: the fact that no one can demonstrate to you that Bush’s Iraq policy has made us or the world safer is irrelevant. 1]could anything demonstrate this to you? and 2] it’s called a war, honey. We have to fight it to demonstrate it. It’s not going to be over in your lifetime.

  104. Mike Avatar

    Well said, Joel Thomas. It’s a shame that anyone who disagrees with (or even merely questions) Bush’s war policies on this otherwise interesting and well-thought out blog is demeaned and dismissed. We do know that September 11th happened, and no, we will not forget it. Ever. Yet we still don’t agree with (all of) Bush’s policies, and even feel that Gore makes some very valid points.

  105. SB from LI, NY Avatar
    SB from LI, NY

    Mike and Joel Thomas
    The current Democratic challenger (Kerry) has done some interesting voting and position explaining during his Senate tenure. See here for details:
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004633
    Kerry was fully on board with Clinton’s team that Hussein had to go, and was still that way when Bush II wanted Senate approval. What changed? To me, the only discernable thing (the media’s view notwithstanding) is his election chances.
    His record shows far more flop-flops on things like Hussein’s danger and the importance of military service than Bush’s does so far. He essentially went along with Bush’s “lies” while he thought it worked for him. Did he believe in the intelligence and danger or didn’t he?
    So, they’re both political. They both have controvertial behavior related to Vietnam. They both are using “scare tactics”. As noted above, Kerry’s are to fear the “enemies” who run this country. They both will do what it takes to get reelected.
    Given this reality–unless I get access to all the juicy, insider conspiracy proof that all the know-it-alls (including some on this board) have–I (and most Americans) can only go by results. And not just the results as reported in the media.
    I’ll limit my points to the most controversial topics of thhe moment, Terrorism and Iraq:
    There are enough reports of progress in one-off news articles and on blogs for me to feel Iraq has turned the corner and will progress to a Democracy in short-enough order. The media and the Left tried to scare me into believing there would be 10s or 100s of thousands of coalition casualties if we invaded. Lately they’re telling me that 500 is way too many. The fact that terrorists are killing other Iraqis who are brave enough to volunteer as police or soldiers still doesn’t pursuade the pundits (or Kerry) that this isn’t about hating Bush. It’s about hating the U.S. for removing their tyranical leader and removing the power they had under him.
    Libya and N. Korea have admitted to weapons programs and we reccently learned about Khan’s nuclear sale attempts.
    Kerry says all this is unimportant and that it would have been better to have the UN and other individual allies on our side. Yet, this did nothing to uncover Libya, Korea or Khan, and they were doing naughty things for over a decade. Kerry says that Bush ruined the goodwill from 9/11 and that he would collaborate with other countries and all bad things, I guess, will go away. No other plans, no specifics, nothing but attacking Bush’s policies and making innuendos about his motives.
    Why should any sensible person trust this lying, opportunistic, inexperienced (in executive office, as commander) politician get my vote (or yours for that matter) over the current one? What makes his form of a**hole superior?
    I know I have seen results from the current leader that are consistent with the long-term security of this ccountry. Now is not the time to switch to someone new whho wants to go back to pre-9/11 ways.
    SB

  106. Eric Deamer Avatar

    Thank you for posting this Jeff. You’re exactly right Yehudit. I’ve learned to just ignore comments and scroll past whenever I see anne.elk or McClelland’s name. I think if we all do the same they will eventually go away. It’s a bit disturbing that anyone would go somewhere so persistently simply to insult and provoke, but I think if we don’t allow ourselves to be provoked they will eventually go away.
    This is a great essay about the Gore speech. I’m glad (if surprised) that someone at the New York Times had enough sense to dissect the speech exactly this way. I had a friend who saw this speech who is a stereotypical NYC liberal. I’d already read it online and I told her what a radical Al Gore had become and that he was reminding me of Charles Lindbergh. She didn’t necessarily agree with the speech but she didn’t understand why I consider Gore’s transformation to have been so extreme. I found this really disturbing. She thought he represented mainstream Democratic party thought, which I hope to God isn’t the case.

  107. Joel Thomas Avatar
    Joel Thomas

    Joe Peden,
    I expect to live at least another 50 years. Hopefully we’ll be out of Iraq by then.

  108. greeneyeshade Avatar
    greeneyeshade

    maybe this is a little OT, but did anyone but me noticed who organized this conference? social text, the geniuses who published alan sokal’s hoax. so i guess we have to quote a great british philosopher: ‘well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?’

  109. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    Charlie (Colorado)

  110. Charlie (Colorado) Avatar
    Charlie (Colorado)

    It’s a shame that anyone who disagrees with (or even merely questions) Bush’s war policies on this otherwise interesting and well-thought out blog is demeaned and dismissed.

    No, not anyone. Just the morons.

  111. mary Avatar

    Charlie (Colorado)

  112. Anonymous Avatar

    Hey Joel Thomas–regarding this:
    > I expect to live at least another 50 years.
    > Hopefully we’ll be out of Iraq by then.
    It would be nice, but I wouldn’t advise betting a lot of money on it. Remember, we’ve been in Korea for 50 years now, and in Germany for almost 60.

  113. RBC Avatar

    Who would have thought that we must then ask the next essential question: Who is our enemy?
    And the only answer can be: Terrorism.

    If the enemy is an “ism”, then military force cannot defeat it.