The devil we know

The devil we know
: I turned on the radio on the drive home tonight and couldn’t believe what I heard. Oh, I already knew that John Le Carre had lost it. But even so, I was amazed and what I heard him say and had to come home and listen again:

:I think that the fact that after we had ended the Cold War that we set about demonizing Islam, that we set about preparing ourselves for unlimited wars in the future, I continue to find that deeply depressing… I would long for more comprehension and a greater respect for the victims of our dreams.

What incredible idiocy.

Who demonized whom?

Islam — or the crackpot, violent, murderous, tyrannical, fanatical edges of Islam — demonized America and the West and modernism. They are the ones who came here to attack us.

Who demonized whom? They demonized us, you ass.

The victims of our dreams?

And how are they victims? Tyranny and repression are what have victimized them. Our dream for them is democracy. Their dream is democracy. Anyone’s dream is.

The victim of our dreams?

What a horrid old fool you are.

: And then I happened to read Dr. Helen Smith reviewing David Frum and Richard Perle’s An End to Evil: How to Win the War on Terror at TCS.

As a forensic psychologist, what I found most worthwhile about the book was this unapologetic attitude toward terrorists and terrorism. I believe the authors are correct when they promote strong tactics in dealing with terrorists. In fact, I believe that the liberal stance of trying too hard to “humanize” our enemies is a mistake that will make the problem worse, and produce more violence rather than less….

In my private practice, I don’t work with terrorists but I do work with violent people. I used to believe (as many of my colleagues still do) that empathizing with my patients and increasing their self-esteem would help them on the path to self-actualization. Of course, for some anxiety-ridden patients who need faith in themselves, the technique of empathy and support works. However, for those patients with serious violent tendencies, just the opposite is true. With those patients, I’ve found that setting clear boundaries and making judgments about their immoral behavior works like a charm.

Right. The criminals who attack us, those with serious violent tendencies, have to find clear boundaries set around their immoral behavior.

We are fighting them. We are protecting ourselves from them.

We aren’t demonizing them. They already are demons. [Dr. Smith — yes, that’s who you think it is — via Relapsed Catholic]

21 responses to “The devil we know”

  1. CorpSlave Avatar
    CorpSlave

    “Our dream for them is democracy”? You ARE joking right? You honestly believe that the US goes around spreading democracy around the world? The last thing the US government wants is democracy in the Middle East. If it did, it wouldn’t have supported Saddam Hussein in the 80s (yes, while he was gassing the Kurds) and it wouldn’t be supporting the Saudi Royal Family now, nor the Kuwaiti government for that matter. Oh, and let’s not forget that the US knew for years about the heinous crimes that the Taliban were committing in Afghanistan but did nothing about it while there was still hope for a trans-Afghanistan oil pipeline. Take these things into consideration and read about the CIA’s involvement in Guatemala (just search on “CIA AND Guatemala” in Google) and THEN if you can still make those assertions — hell, if you can still sleep at night — I will become your disciple.

  2. Dean Avatar

    South Korea? Taiwan? El Salvador? Thailand?
    Not EVERY US-supported regime stayed a military dictatorship. Some even industrialized and got much better.

  3. CERDIP Avatar

    I don’t remember when it actually was that I discovered that Le Carre was a dimwit with respect to World Affairs, but I think it was sometime around Desert Storm.
    I was so greatly disappointed that I gave away all my books by him. Thinking back on the stories, they now completely lack credibility now that I understand how he thinks.

  4. Tom Grey Avatar

    CorpSlave, you have a good point — both Dems & Reps avoided democracy in the Cold War, in favor of anti-communism. And the commies did NOT attack, and kill, thousands, or hundreds, or even dozens of Americans in America.
    Clinton was too wimpy to say that the prior policy was a mistake. Many in the US State Dept. still want us to follow that.
    Bush has. Because he got elected in 2000 on a platform AGAINST foreign, Somalia-like adventures/ humiliations. And the Islamofascists attacked, and murdered, thousands of US.
    I was born in 1956, the year the US did NOT allow Ho Chi Mingh to win a Vietnam election, because he was commie. You FAILED to mention the Cambodia killing fields, 2,500,000,000 (big number, huh?) murdered by commies because the anti-war folk “won” the US political argument. The US has done a reasonable job of supporting “the lesser evil”. Now it want to supports good, democracy; and you object???
    Clinton & Carter knew for years about No. Korea — I’m not sure we should invade, but I’m sure we should NOT rule it out. What else is there, when China vetoes any UN SC resolutions?
    A world without dictators is what I want. What do you want? And how to get there, given reality?

  5. Ben Avatar

    CorpSlave: Not joking in the slightest. I didn’t write the original, but Jeff was absolutely right. We are not a 19th century European power. We don’t want to rule anybody.
    We are perfectly, well content is not the right word, but willing to put up with jerks in other countries as long as they don’t make trouble for us. As long as they don’t try to kill us. After that point, well, all bets are off.
    During the Cold War, we had to support bad regimes then, in order to prevent worse regimes from coming into power. After the Cold war ended, those regimes have been converting over to democratic rule. Noreaga is in jail in Miami, not ruling Panama any more. And the Taliban are no more. Saddam, whom even if you are right about the nefariousness of our previous support, is now a prisoner of war.
    The people of other nations have to choose democracy. We are pretty certain that this will make them more prosperous, as well as less of a threat to us. Less likely to kill us. But again, it has to be their choice, and with respect to their cultures. Human societies don’t change too sudden, so these things take time.
    Sorry it ain’t all done yesterday. But sometimes its better than rushing things.

  6. ed cone Avatar

    I read Smith’s review, and was struck the slight of hand she allows Perle and Frum to perpetrate — we don’t need to “humanize” the terrorists, but we do need to understand the conditions that allow them to breed. String the bastards up, hunt them down, hell yes, but at the same time think hard about, say, supporting the oligarchs who rule their countries, etc. It’s not either/or. I have rarely if ever heard arguments for making nice with the people who fly planes into buildings, but that doesn’t mean US policy should not attempt to “humanize” the human societies from which these monsters spring.

  7. James Stephenson Avatar
    James Stephenson

    In regards to Saudia Arabia, the true problem area, we could do nothing there, until we had a place for our Troops in the ME, and a replacement for Oil Disruptions. Now, we are pulling out of SA and all of the sudden they are finding terrorists in their country. Let them have their Civil War, we will back the people who want democracy.
    It is bound to happen. But you can not change everything overnight. You can prove you are serious. When you do that, you get things like the Pakistan Nuclear information, Libya giving up her WMD and ratting out on Pakistan and NK, Syria talking about elections, Egypt/SA talking about taking their Palistinians that they expelled back. And before you know it, you have a free region. Free to worship as you wish, free to be who you are, free for women to travel alone outside, with no threat of being stoned for her mistep. Freedom.
    It takes time.

  8. miguel Avatar

    you make me sick! you don’t have the right to have a dream for anyone else than yourself. you don’t have the right to force “democrazy” on any country! if you move into a different culture with your social values and say they have to have the same values too, your taking away their identity, and taking away identity is probably one of the best conditions for generating terrorism. think again, jeff, please!

  9. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    And that makes me sick: You are saying, then, that the Germans wanted fascism so nobody should have stopped them because it was their PC choice. Ditto tyranny and Iraq, Iran, China, North Korea, Libya…. So you are saying that tyranny is their “social value.” How horrendously insulting of you.

  10. miguel Avatar

    c’mon where did I say that the Germans wanted fascism so nobody should have stopped them because it was their PC choice. Ditto tyranny and Iraq, Iran, China, North Korea, Libya…. So […] saying that tyranny is their “social value.” I definitely cannot read it anywhere in my post! I don’t deny the problem, but I don’t think that it is up to any US-American or European to say and decide that “democracy” (the one in practice and your suggested solution) has to be brought to the whole wide world.

  11. Lola Avatar

    So, Miguel, what do YOU want to bring to the whole wide world? And what are you going to do if the people in the country next to yours are getting slaughtered because all they want is to be able to assemble in the public and protest the corrupt government and demand a referendum to recall the dictator who just loves to kill people for no reason at all?

  12. miguel Avatar

    as I said, Lola, no-one denies the problem, but do you think that it’s the US’s or anybody’s right to install a system, which one thinks is appropriate, wherever one wants it to be? solutions won’t come over night!

  13. Dean Avatar

    Certainly, solutions won’t come over night, or at all, if the default response is, “Do nothing.”

  14. JorgXMcKie Avatar
    JorgXMcKie

    I *like* the response of “do nothing.” After all, it has worked marvelously well so often, as it did in . . . . [crickets chirping], well, anyway it worked pretty well in . . . . [more crickets]. At least it made the situation better in . . . . [damn crickets getting deafening]. Okay, I like it just ’cause, and also it lets me sneer at people who want to do things, and it lets me feel superior without risk.
    So there.

  15. Leland Avatar

    miguel,
    You say,
    “no-one denies the problem, but do you think that it’s the US’s or anybody’s right to install a system”
    …a few posts after vomiting about Jeff suggesting Americans dream about democracy coming to others. The dream is not installing a system but rather hoping (gasp maybe even praying) the “problem” resolves itself peacefully. After 9-11, we woke up into a different reality.

  16. Leland Avatar

    Le Carre believes the nation, nicknamed by some as “The Great Satan”, has been demonizing Islam?

  17. Sandy P. Avatar

    –if you move into a different culture with your social values and say they have to have the same values too, your taking away their identity, and taking away identity is probably one of the best conditions for generating terrorism.–
    I agree, miguel, so why are so many signs in English and Spanish? And why has salsa replaced ketchup at #1, IIRC?
    —
    –solutions won’t come over night!–
    No, they came after the 2nd plane flew into the 2nd tower.
    We can’t force democracy on them, but it’s Ok to force Islam on us???? Go read Binny’s surrender terms from his 1998 manifesto. You’re going to have to choose. To Dhimmi or not to dhimmi, that is the question.

  18. Bryan C Avatar

    “I don’t deny the problem, but I don’t think that it is up to any US-American or European to say and decide that “democracy” (the one in practice and your suggested solution) has to be brought to the whole wide world.”
    Why not? Democracy is not one of many equally good forms of government. It’s the best one. It’s the only form of government that allows human beings to fully exersize their inherent rights and the only one robust enough to avoid collapsing into totalitarianism at the slightest provocation. I’m not seeing the downside here.

  19. miguel Avatar

    that’s your point of view bryan c., from where you are and from where you live. but it’s not automatically supposed to be true for someone, who lives somewhere in cambodia. “democracy” might be the best solution for this country (US) now, but time will show whether it will be. and it’s certainly not democratic to “bring democracy” by use of military forces, is it?

  20. Dean Avatar

    Miguel:
    I’m curious, under what set of circumstances would it be better if people did NOT have a voice in how they were governed? What are the conditions where one could say, w/ any confidence, “The people should not rule themselves. Someone should make their decisions, be it on how much they are taxed, what they are taxed, whether they go to war, how and whether they are educated for them. Fewer inputs is better than more.”

  21. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Don’t waste any more breath on Miquel. He’s your typical high-school/college level of a lefty. The whole, “hey man, don’t impose your values on me, man,” for every reason under the sun. You will not get your point across. “Open-minded” people like Miquel don’t want to hear other opinions. It might make him think, and that will be a painful experience. I was like him when I was 18, but I grew up.