Revenge of the Non-Haters

Revenge of the Non-Haters
: I’m flattered the Mickey Kaus likes my analysis of Dean’s slippages because he has made himself into Dr. No, leader of the negative wing of the party. Says Mickey:

Even in the Iowa caucuses–which attract only the most intensely-committed 10 percent of the electorate–the non-haters are in the process of swamping the haters. That’s Jarvis’ point about Dean’s decline. (It’s the opposite of the conventional analysis, which is that Iowa Dems hate Bush so much they are turning to the milder candidates who can beat him.) … [snip]

P.P.S.: Jarvis’ other point is that Clark (as Krugman notes) has now positioned himself on the wrong (i.e. Krugman’s) side of Krugman’s divide. But if that doesn’t work for Clark I’m confident he’ll change! (See, e.g., above item). …. P.P.S.: There’s actually a matrix, of course, with boxes for Bush-hating left-wingers (Kucinich), Bush-hating centrists (Clark, at the moment), non-Bush-hating left-wingers (an empty box) and non-Bush-hating centrists. As a non-Bush-hating centrist, I’m suddenly worried that a candidate I like, John Edwards, will win Iowa and the nomination. Why worry? Because Edwards will probably still lose the election, which will enable the hating left-wingers to say “See, you ran another Clinton and he lost.” If the Democrats are going to lose anyway, the might as well run a paleolib hater and let that wing of the party have nobody to blame. [You’re going to get Hillary in 2008 whoever loses this time-ed. Good point.]

And let’s be clear: being a non-hater doesn’t mean being a liker. It means making a grayscale and mature judgment about issues and policies and leadership. The Krugman/Dean Bush-hater school of thought is unsubtle and essentially insulting to the electorate and the nation and that insult is what’s coming home to roost.

61 responses to “Revenge of the Non-Haters”

  1. Alan Avatar

    Howard Dean’s resemblance to “Dr. No” is indeed quite remarkable.
    http://www.petrifiedtruth.com/archives/001178.html

  2. rollie Avatar

    Bull Moose Republicans also blogged your Dr. No post, adding their own comments as well:
    http://www.bullmoose.org/blog/archive/display.cfm?postID=330

  3. Mithras Avatar

    Picking up Mickey Kaus’s endorsement of your idea, now that’s rich with irony after kicking off your I-am-too-a-liberal campaign.
    And on the subject of Bush hate – you know, we “haters” just really, really disagree with his policies. You seem to not disagree with his policies, or at least, not have expressed any disagreement beyond “the tax cuts were irresponsible” and “that Supreme Court thing was bad.” Who lacks the nuanced position? You and Kaus. According to you, everything Bush does is fine, at least as far as we can tell.
    Anyway, I look forward to the day when the Republicans direct a lot of non-hate the Democrats’ way again. I enjoyed all the non-hate during the 2000 election, the Clinton presidency, and – oh, hell, all the non-hate that’s been directed at Democrats and liberals for about 30 years now. Remember?

  4. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    See, Mithras, you’re exactly what I’ve been talking about: You want me to spit and seethe and I don’t feel like spitting and seething. I feared Bush greatly and disagree with much of what he stands for and has done but I also have the mature openmindedness to say that I do support this war and I do support the administration in the war on terrorism — hell, I’d go farther. But I think his judicial nominations are utterly frightening; I think his stands on religion and family violate the Constitution; I think his tax cut was horrendously irresponsible; I think he has not stepped up to his promise on education one inch… and on and on. You see, you’re just plain dumbass, head-up-your-ass wrong when you say that I agree with him just because I disagree with you about the war. But that’s not the point. The point is that your seething, spitting strategy and that of your fellow bulldogs is exactly what is going to lose this election for you and for me and you don’t like it when I call you on it. All I ever hear from you and your fellow pooches is your hate-Bush litmus test. Life is more complicated than that. The voters know that. You don’t. Dean doesn’t. And that’s why Dean is losing – he will lose either the nomination or the election and this strategy is what will do it. And that’s what I hate. So, you see, I’m more of a Democrat than you will ever be. I don’t just want to fume and fuss. I want to win.

  5. Roger L. Simon Avatar

    What you said.

  6. Mithras Avatar

    At last, you do list what you’re liberal about. Why didn’t you do that a week ago? Just too stubborn? (I get that sense about you.) So, I have to give it to you – by any sane definition, you’re liberal. (Simon, on the other hand, can’t even bring himself to call himself a Democrat on the radio, and compares Bush to JFK. It must suck to have those kind of people on your team, Jarvis.)
    Okay, so you think my opposition to the war in Iraq – and my opposition to Bush – is irrational. I think the same of your support for that war and Bush. I think you’ve been driven by fear inspired by the attacks to want to hurt as many people as possible in retaliation. All this talk of transforming the Middle East, facing down radical Islam – what it conceals is just the desire to kill as many of “them” as possible. Even if the “them” are innocent people, or not-so-innocent people who didn’t do anything to us.
    It’s exciting, too, isn’t it? It might be a uncomfortable to admit, but you get a little charge out of feeling like you’re part of a crusade, don’t you? It obviates all the shades-of-gray politics and makes things nice and simple. Like this Rachel Lucas post: “For me, it’s not watching a loved one die all over again, it’s watching my world change. The moment that second plane comes into view, that moment of pure, undiluted shock when one could see that it was going to hit the second building – that moment changed me fundamentally. The world is not what you thought it was, Rachel. I think a lot of people feel the same way. Am I wrong?” No, lots of people feel that way. There’s something purifying about being a victim, especially if you’re a professional victim who gets journalism gigs as a result.
    I think it’s possible to be for the Iraq war and not be irrational. I just don’t see that in you.

  7. godlesscapitalist Avatar

    There’s something purifying about being a victim, especially if you’re a professional victim
    What, like half the leftwing Democrats? (ba-dum-bum).
    Seriously, though, Bush is atrocious domestically. Neither liberals nor conservatives can defend him. This illegal alien amnesty and the Mars boondoggle were the last straw.

  8. angell Avatar

    You don’t get it–once he makes Mars viable and a non-desert, he will send all the fanatics there–one way ticket so they can establish one planet under allah. :):)

  9. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Well, Mithras, I’m so f’ing happy to have your blessing. I quite enjoyed watching you all swing in the wind making complete and utter asses of yourselves trying to argue, from your Politburo perches, that I was not liberal. Nya-f’ing-nya. But let’s go the next step: I think that Bush has not been a disaster and in some ways has done a good job. I support the war and the alient program, for example. You see, the days of black-and-white, all-right or all-wrong are over. Like it or not, he’s the President and we’re at war — and I don’t mean in Iraq, I mean against terrorism everywhere; we’re at war right here on the beaches and we need to pull together to support that war; anything less is suicide. So I can hate some of what Bush does and like other things he does and support even with caution some of what he does and still I am the one to know whether I am liberal or conservative — you are not. Look at what you and your fellow pound dogs just did to me, going to my throat because we didn’t agree and kicking me out of your pack. That is what the left is doing now. And it is going to kill the left. Beware.

  10. angell Avatar

    Yeah, I’m as right as they get and even I wasn’t willing to attack Jeff–though I wish he’d make a conversion for the better–to Republicanism.
    He seems too smart and too tolerant and not PC enough to be Liberal–but if I said that, I’d be no better than the attackers, and I’d be saying that you can’t be a decent person and be left. He reminds me of John Edwards–the Dem candidate with class.

  11. Wagner Avatar

    > I enjoyed all the non-hate during the 2000
    > election, the Clinton presidency, and – oh,
    > hell, all the non-hate that’s been directed at > Democrats and liberals for about 30 years now. > Remember?
    Oh, I remember well. This just means that the hate-spittled conservatives and Republicans who attacked Clinton the way they did then are in a very poor place when similar rancor is directed at Bush now. *However*, that leaves unaddressed the wide swathe of politically unaffiliated independents of all ideological leanings who found it contemptible then, and contemptible now. Comments like the above come from people who think the political debate is merely a battle between two fortresses who need to keep catapulting pox-infected dead cows over each other’s walls– while forgetting about the teeming population trapped in the middle, getting spattered in the exchange.
    Republicans and conservatives who put their irrational, destructive hatred of Clinton above the safety of the country were being unpatriotic assholes who deserved to fail then. Democrats and liberals who put their irrational, destructive hatred of Bush above the safety of the country now are being unpatriotic assholes who deserve to now.
    A lot of us passionately believe both statements at the same time. *How difficult is it for both you assholes to understand this?*

  12. Mithras Avatar

    I’m so f’ing happy to have your blessing.
    You’re welcome. I knew it’d make you happy. And it’s your blog, Jarvis, you’re allowed to cuss if you want. Don’t hold back on my account.
    I quite enjoyed watching you all swing in the wind making complete and utter asses of yourselves trying to argue, from your Politburo perches, that I was not liberal.
    “Politburo perches”? Is that like the “Coalition of the Pissy” thing? You really do want to be Safire, don’t you? (Style hint: alliteration is best used sparingly.)
    You see, the days of black-and-white, all-right or all-wrong are over.
    I see. The days of black-and-white are over, but I have to be insane to be against invading Iraq. I see.
    I think it’s possible to be reasonable, be a liberal and be in favor of the war in Iraq. Do you think it’s possible to be reasonable and against it?
    we’re at war right here on the beaches and we need to pull together to support that war; anything less is suicide
    Thanks for proving my point that you like feeling you’re on a mission. I bet you even imagine you’re in a movie sometimes. Right?
    And it is going to kill the left. Beware.
    Oh, shove the insincere advice. Last presidential election, the greens and ultra-lefties hoped the Democrats would lose so the party would move left. This time, people like you hope the Democrats lose so the party moves right. They were wrong, and you’re wrong.
    There are plenty of people – like me – that like the fact that Saddam is gone but still think Bush manipulated us into this war and fear it is a distraction from the real conflict. Those people are not insane, whatever you think, Jarvis. If you have no way for them to express those thoughts politically, then your political system is screwed up.

  13. Floyd McWilliams Avatar

    “Simon, on the other hand, can’t even bring himself to call himself a Democrat on the radio, and compares Bush to JFK. It must suck to have those kind of people on your team, Jarvis.”
    Here is what I see as the Jeff Jarvis Team: People who were scarred by September 11, and want to make sure that there will never be another terrorist attack on America that kills thousands of people.
    Jeff has talked many times about how his lungs are polluted with the remains of aircraft, skyscrapers, and human beings. Why should he care in the slightest about whether Roger Simon calls himself a Democrat on the radio?

  14. Mithras Avatar

    Floyd-
    I want to make sure that there will never be another terrorist attack that kills thousands of Americans, too. That’s not the issue. Javis says we must do it Bush’s way or no way at all. It’s a false choice.
    If you haven’t been following along with this conversation, Jarvis claims he agrees with the Democrats on most issues except the invasion of Iraq. That is, he is constructively criticizing. It is relevant whether his friends aren’t.

  15. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Mithras: Please stop trying to quote or summarize me. You get it all wrong. I have never said that “we must do it Bush’s way or no way at all” — or anything close to that. I have said that I support what he is doing in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and in terrorism, though I would go even farther in the last. So, again, you are full of crap. And it’s also not true that I support Democrats on everything except the war. I support most liberal positions but I am a mix. And among the liberals who’s to say what the positions are today. I am robustly in favor of gun control, for example. Dean is not. Go figger. He doesn’t sound very liberal to me. Allow me to state my own positions, thank you. I don’t need others to do it for me.

  16. Mithras Avatar

    Jarvis-
    You’re such a hoot. “Don’t define me! Don’t try to pin me down!” What’s the problem, afraid of being wrong? Looking like an ass? If I were you, I would be worried about that, too.
    You say, “I support most liberal positions but I am a mix.” I said, “Jarvis claims he agrees with the Democrats on most issues….” Does “most” mean something different when you say it?
    And if “who’s to say what the [liberal] positions are today”, then how do you know you’re a liberal? Nah, scratch that. The last time I asked you why you say you’re a liberal it required a week to drag it out of you.
    Here’s the question I’d like an answer to. You must have missed it, so one more time: “I think it’s possible to be reasonable, be a liberal and be in favor of the war in Iraq. Do you think it’s possible to be reasonable and against it?”
    Try not to get your back up this time.

  17. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Mithras: You’re quoting selectively again. I objected to you insisting that I said the only way to fight this war is Bush’s way. I never said that.
    And haven’t you gotten the message yet: I don’t want to play your game. I don’t need to answer to you and your definitions. Don’t care. Won’t play. So there. I am what I say here. And when you try to summarize me, you get it wrong. So don’t try. Nobody’s asking you to.

  18. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Mithras: Look at the comments on the BBC post just above this one. I used your annointing of me as liberal after all to good effect. Appreciate it!

  19. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    I think it’s possible to be reasonable, be a liberal and be in favor of the war in Iraq. Do you think it’s possible to be reasonable and against it?
    Looks like a yes or no question there from Mithras, and it’s a good one. I’m curious about Jeff’s answer as well. Not a paragraph about “selective quoting” or how he didn’t think the only way to fight “this war” was Bush’s way or how he imagines “haters” to be “spitting and seething” — just yes or no.

  20. Mithras Avatar

    Jarvis doesn’t like being criticized or answering questions. He does like to remind people how moral he is because he watched 9/11 happened. And he likes to criticize others.
    Whatever. News is a conversation, but it doesn’t have to make any sense, I guess.

  21. Homer Robinson Avatar
    Homer Robinson

    Dear “Mithras”, congrats on crossing the line. Trolling is so much work isn’t it. Jeff still hasn’t banned you, you just have to work harder, won’t you.(Sad, very sad.)

  22. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Homer: Right you are. Mithras, and you like insulting and pigeonholing people until they realize what an ass you are. Mission accomplished. Why don’t you throw in a Hitler analogy just for good measure. If you’re going to try to offend, go for it, man, really go for it. 9/11… Holocaust… hey, it’s all just fodder for your comedy routine….

  23. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Oh Mithras, I have just visited your charming little blog. Talk about an agenda — I think you only haunt Jeff’s comments because you’re afraid of the real rightwingers. You know he’ll be nice to you and put up with your crap. If it were me I wouldn’t, but I’m not as nice as Jeff.

  24. O'McSomething Avatar
    O’McSomething

    (inner Jarvis)Coalistion of the Pissy……Hmmm? Didn’t catch on…even though Insty and Totty and Blairsy got on board…shhooooott!….Dr. No….Yeah, Lieberman started it, I’ll keep it going….Ooohhh! Looky, Micky likes me, he reeaally likes me!….but just in case….let’s float……politburo perches!!….yes, now if I can just get the proper linky quotes, another Dem-bashing bloggy in-word is born!!….then all the boys (maybe I can even get Podhoretz to start a blog and quote me!) will weally, weally wike me!(/inner Jarvis)
    Please have the epiphany now.

  25. angell Avatar

    Well, Mithras, then you tell us how it should have been done your way? Clinton did have 8 years. You can not deny that many Iraqis today are alive and not in a mass grave because of Bush. Bush believed he had WMD, Clinton believed he had WMD, Wesley Clark believed he had WMD. I believed he had WMD–I still believe that. But to make a long story short, on average, how many Iraqi and Arab lives have been saved so far? With an average of 138 lives saved per day since March 20, 2003, the answer today is 39,744. (Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was responsible for the deaths of 1.26 million Iraqis and other Arabs, and for the creation of 4.54 million refugees. That is what Bush is stopping in Iraq. Not to mention Saddam’s sport of:
    * Medical experimentation
    * Beatings
    * Crucifixion
    * Hammering nails into the fingers and hands
    * Amputating sex organs or breasts with an electric carving knife
    * Spraying insecticides into a victim’s eyes
    * Branding with a hot iron
    * Committing rape while the victim’s spouse is forced to watch
    * Pouring boiling water into the victim’s rectum
    * Nailing the tongue to a wooden board
    * Extracting teeth with pliers
    * Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents
    How can anyone, right or left, object to people being freed from these atrocities? Do you hate Bush more than you have compassion for Saddam’s victims?

  26. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Sounds like O’McFrothing’s serotonin-regulation regimen needs a bit of tweaking…

  27. Mithras Avatar

    Jarvis, of course you label all anti-war people as wackos, or leftists, or whatever. Review your own posts. Have you ever once said or implied someone’s anti-war opposition was rational, although you disagreed? I couldn’t find an instance.
    And whether you like to hear it not, you use your experience of 9/11 as a cloak of morality and as a weapon. How many times have you tried to end an argument with, “I was there! How dare you have an opinion contrary to mine?”
    Angell-
    You can not deny that many Iraqis today are alive and not in a mass grave because of Bush. … With an average of 138 lives saved per day since March 20, 2003, the answer today is 39,744.
    *sigh* First, don’t use faked numbers, okay? You’re averaging the 1 million people killed in the Iran-Iraq war (along with the 80,000 killed during the Shia and Kurdish uprisings in 1991), which is crap. Second, I am happy Saddam and sons are gone. If democracy is established in Iraq, I will be happier. But it’s more likely, in my estimation, that we’re going to just exchange one Saddam for another. And in the meantime, between extrajudicial application of Sharia and the insurgency, life in Iraq isn’t so great. Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back yet.
    Andrea Harris, get substantive or go back to sleep.

  28. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Mithras? Go to hell. By “substantive” you, like all your little totalitarian friends, mean “agree with me.” Throughout history people like you talked a great game about “freedom” and “the oppressed” but were first in line to lick the jackboots of whatever thug put himself in power. You’re real brave talking excrement about the armed forces of a country that would save your sorry ass if needed instead of putting a bullet in your head and tossing you in a mass grave; let’s see you be as brave to an American solder’s face. I’d sooner trust my country to “rethuglican fascists” than cowardly scum like you.

  29. Mithras Avatar

    No, Andrea, by substantive, I mean, “having substance.” And the links you provide (1) show footage of who are supposed to be three Iraqis being blown apart and (2) have me expressing concern for the psychological condition of our troops, which if you knew any actual soldiers, you would know is their concern, too.

  30. angell Avatar

    I think Andrew Sullivan sad this, but I never linked it:
    (Osama bin Laden may have accomplished what a generation of conservative writers have failed to do: convince mainstream liberals of the illogic and nihilism of the powerful postmodern left. For the first time in a very long while, many liberals are reassessing–quietly for the most part–their alliance with the anti-American, anticapitalist forces they have long appeased, ignored or supported. )
    Is it so hard for you to choose between America and the terrorists, Mithras? Do you truly love the Baathists and hate Bush? And what was your solution for the atrocities in Iraq–let them continue?? Talk pretty to Saddam? Pay him to play nice? Convert to islam??

  31. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Oh, Mithras, you’re concerned. If I were a soldier I think my reply to your concern for my psyche would be something like this: “Your leechcraft would have had me crawling on all fours like a beast.” You know, I think you should change your net handle.

  32. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Angell: I truly think that Mithras does not like or admire the Baathists, though it would be nice if he did not seem to think that Bush was worse than they. I simply think that Mithras is more interested in keeping his own virtue “pure.”

  33. O'McSomething Avatar
    O’McSomething

    Hey Angus– Why don’t you head back over to Tim Blair’s where all the non-hater’s are putting the finishing touches on their ode to Rachel Corrie. It’s under the banner of Spleenville–don’t you have some connection to that operation, Andrea?
    Search for Rachel Corrie on the link and you will find the lovely, moral-high-road types waxing poetic in such a non-hateful way:
    Just a sample–
    July 29, 2003
    ‘DOZER DON’T SCAN
    …
    Comments
    And now the end is near
    Because I face a big bulldozer
    That guy who’s got the keys
    He doesn’t stop ’cause he’s a hoser….
    Posted by: Mark from Monroe at July 29, 2003 at 06:22 AM
    …
    Haiku for Rachel
    “Don

  34. angell Avatar

    I don’t think anyone hates Rachel Corrie–she was too insignificant for that. I just think she was stupid. Even tiny kids know you don’t play in front of huge machines and that a human can’t stop a dozer. I am sorry she tripped and fell, while she was trying to protect the house of a homicide bomber’s friends.

  35. Mithras Avatar

    Andrea, our men and women in Iraq – including my girlfriend’s cousin in the Stryker brigade, okay? – are spending a year in hellish conditions, with bombs going off around them, seeing their buddies get wounded or worse, and having to shoot people. Did you actually watch that video? Even if those Iraqis were “bad guys,” don’t you think a normal person would have some emotional reaction to blowing three other people to shreds? These people are going to need counseling when they return and a lot of support. My dad came back from Korea and nobody did shit for him. I don’t think conditions in Iraq as as bad as Korea, but remember, just because you don’t get hit doesn’t mean you haven’t been wounded.
    And the LOTR thing is just creepy. You should stop.

  36. angell Avatar

    Yes, Mithras, you are right. War is hell. World War II was hell, but that does not mean it should not have been fought. Yes, the Coalition troops will need counselling because unlike the enemy, they don’t swarm, dance in the streets, and praise allah. They actually have consciences–if they didn’t the US would not care about what killers do in other countries–they’d just let them kill themselves off. No one forced anyone to join the forces. In the US , it is a choice.

  37. O' Avatar

    “No one forced anyone to join the forces. In the US, it is a choice.”
    Yeah, so far. But if we have four more years of this kind of crap, that very well may not be the case. Can you say conscription (aka DRAFT)?

  38. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Your concern continues to touch my heart in a special way, Mithras. And O’, glad you could visit! Do come by Tim’s blog anytime. Share your thoughts. We’d be glad to share right back!

  39. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    “Hey Angus– Why don’t you head back over to Tim Blair’s where all the non-hater’s are putting the finishing touches on their ode to Rachel Corrie.”
    Sure thing. By the way, you need to wipe your chin. It’s all foamy. Happy Googling!

  40. Mithras Avatar

    angell, I was not making the argument that because our soldiers will require help upon coming home, that that alone was reason not to go to war. I was responding to no-substance Andrea. In case you haven’t figured it out, I am not a pacifist. I believe there are things worth fighting for. But we’ve signed our people up for a multi-year commitment to fight in some pretty bad conditions. When you’re counting the costs and benefits, don’t forget the effect on them as part of the cost.

  41. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Mithras, and you like insulting and pigeonholing people until they realize what an ass you are.
    Jeff, I hope you don’t mind if I repost Mithras’ yes-or-no question, which seems to have gotten lost in the brouhaha here. I’m sure you meant to respond to it, but just got distracted:
    I think it’s possible to be reasonable, be a liberal and be in favor of the war in Iraq. Do you think it’s possible to be reasonable and against it?
    It’s a question whose tone and tenor I quite agree with, and I’m sure I’m not alone. Think we can get an answer?

  42. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    By the way, you need to wipe your chin. It’s all foamy.
    Why not write that in a haiku, Angus?
    “Those who would call me
    On revelling in murder
    Must be simply mad.”

  43. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Poor Rachel Corrie
    Didn’t she know bulldozers
    Are really heavy?

  44. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    I mean, if you’re going to accuse me of “revelling,” I might as well… ;)

  45. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Class all the way, Angus. Just what I expected. ;-)

  46. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Hey, O’McRanting brought it up. Just trying to help! And I still think “Pour another wine” was a bit awkward… ;)

  47. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    And I still think “Pour another wine” was a bit awkward…
    Yeah, your solution for writing a haiku mocking her grisly death was much better. Congrats!

  48. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    “Yeah, your solution for writing a haiku mocking her grisly death was much better.”
    Whoops! You meant grisly MURDER, didn’t you? Tsk, tsk! :)

  49. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Re Mithras supposedly important question about being a “reasonable” opponent against the war, sure, that’s possible. However, Mithras isn’t one of them, based on statements like these:

    But we’ve signed our people up for a multi-year commitment to fight in some pretty bad conditions.

    What, we should only send our forces to fight in tropical paradises, conveying them to the battlefield in airconditioned limos, and not really letting them fight anyway lest they get hurt? From your statements and your posts on your own blog I see that you, Mithras, have taken the stand that the way to be an anti-war opponent is to baby the men and women in the military, treat them like stupid, fragile children, worry ostentatiously about their mental condition — which is a much subtler way of tearing down morale than merely calling them bloodthirsty babykillers. Yes, it is possible to be reasonably against the war. I just don’t see it on display from anyone here.

  50. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Whoops! You meant grisly MURDER, didn’t you? Tsk, tsk!
    Hey, good to see you have a moral compass after all! I’m sure your mom would be proud.
    Andrea, thanks for taking a turn at bat, but I really am interested in Jeff’s answer to that question, not yours. Have fun building up and knocking down some Mithras-shaped strawmen, though.

  51. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    “Hey, good to see you have a moral compass after all!”
    Just try not to slip up next time, okay?

  52. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Just try not to slip up next time, okay?
    Your attempt to change
    The subject of discussion
    Is duly noted. ;-)

  53. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    It only works if you play your role consistently! Well, no harm done.

  54. Mithras Avatar

    Dr. Slack, thanks for re-posting the question on the floor for Jarvis. I note without comment that he declines to answer.
    Andrea, please keep it down. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

  55. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Well, apparently, it’s not possible to be anti-war and win the election, let alone a primary.
    For all the intimidation of the anti-war crowd, there are those of us who made this difficult decision to support this war out of conscience and there are a great many Americans who agree. Of course, anyone can with good reason and conscience support or disagree with this war. I have not tried to intimidate and belittle those on the other side — as you have tried, if feebly, to do here and as Dean did and it sure bit him in the butt now, didn’t it?

  56. Andrea Harris Avatar

    Yes, Mithras, we are. Perhaps you should quit trying to butt in.

  57. O'McSomething Avatar
    O’McSomething

    Jeff, I think the Kerry surge in the past few weeks had lots to do with his Vietnam veteran cred. I sure was proud of him tonight — and I gave a few $$ to Dean! Even though Dean didn’t do so well, I think that his early (and IMHO correct) opposition to the Iraq war was a huge boost to Kerry and Edwards (and of course Gep — but bye-bye and fair play to you, fella — thanks for being classy!). As elected members of Congress (even though I regret their wimpyness), their (Kerry’s, Gep’s, Edwards’s) support of Bush’s war resolution (Was anyone thinking clearly on 9/15/2001?) seems sorta understandable — and Kerry comes our smelling better than the rest:
    But many Democratic and some GOP senators worried that the language was too broad, giving Bush and future presidents carte blanche to conduct any military operation anywhere, any time, for any reason.
    …
    ”People were concerned that it not be blanket approval for any kind of action, for any event, for any interpretation,” said Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee. ”People want to make sure we’re dealing with Sept. 11” and not other incidents, Kerry said.
    But as it is increasingly evident that the intelligence leading to war was trumped-up (I refrain here from saying “Bush lied!” because I know that is hateful and just not nice!), Kerry has free rein to be critical of Bush’s foreign policy (re Iraq). So Dean was out there early, but Kerry can keep it going. Should be interesting to see how the Dean campaign plays out in the next few weeks.
    *Best thing about Iowa — RECORD TURNOUT. Seems that (at least in flyover Iowa) Dems are raring to beat Bush.
    Great night for Democracy, huh?
    Jeff–Can’t you just be happy and stop sniping at Dean? He’s bringing out the best in the Dem candidates. That should make you happy.

  58. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    I have not tried to intimidate and belittle those on the other side
    I guess that’s a question of perspective.
    See, I view this kind of sniping:
    Well, apparently, it’s not possible to be anti-war and win the election, let alone a primary
    …as precisely an attempt to belittle the other side. But thanks for at least answering the question, grudgingly or otherwise.

  59. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Accurately.

  60. Doctor Slack Avatar
    Doctor Slack

    Accurately.
    Better, Angus, better! But still not good enough. See, I could interpret “accurately” as referring to either my criticism of Jeff’s attempted belittlement, or to the correctness of the belittlement itself. You want to make the target of your comments clearer in the future.
    Now, try again.

  61. Angus Jung Avatar
    Angus Jung

    Have you had your blood pressure checked lately?