The conversation

The conversation

: There are some wonderful comments continuing the discussion from the post below on the transformation of news, all sparked by a Tim Rutten column in the LA Times.

In the comments, Othello says:

Let the high priests of the old media sniff at the blogosphere. I, for one, love our modern-day cyberspace townhall, and prefer “talking with” rather than “being talked (down) to” any day…. In spite of the dreck and noise (of which there is a lot), with not too much searching you can still find sites and people with whom you can have reasonable exhanges of ideas and discover common values … even when they are halfway around the world, and are living in a country where your nation’s armed forces have just fought a war.

Reliable communication between common people in which ideas are freely exchanged and debated is a terrific weapon against tyranny….

After all … once people stop being told what to think, they’re liable to think just about anything!

That’s less about the press than about the Web as an alternative but it’s an interesting perspective.

Bill Herbert sides with Rutten on the value of an objective press:

Despite Rutten’s snootiness, I have to basically agree with him: while unabashedly opinionated news sources are fine as supplements, I think journalism should still strive toward objectivity, however unattainable it may be. I simply don’t think that human failings are a reason to throw the whole idea out….

Yes, Jeff, most Americans realize that people like Franken and Coulter are vaudeville acts. But in Britain, they’d actually be taken seriously as reporters. You really think that’s a good thing?…

Despite all its flaws, the American flavor of journalism is still something to be proud of. It’s no accident that our papers have guys like John Burns, while the Brits have ass clowns like Andrew Gilligan. It’s because our journalists do make an effort to separate opinions from facts….

And in a wonderful comment, Matt Welch seconds Bill.

…I think it’s a good idea to once in a while remember the *good* that has come out of the elitist (and originally, objectively pro-capitalist) notion of high-handed newspaper objectivity. If a magic wand were to be waved, and the media were to all be like Murdoch/Guardian/blogs, and no more of this condescening above-it-all professionalism, I’d wager that we’d feel the loss pretty sharply.

Remember when CNN was the sort of AP of television news? One of the reason why CNN sucks now, in my opinion, is that it tried too hard to be like Fox, and Headline News especially tried too much to be like, I dunno, Entertainment Tonight or some crap. There is a valuable role to be played by our just-the-facts-ma’am news organizations, and I’m bummed now that we don’t have a national TV network that just barfs up the straight news for 24 hours a day, without goofy anchor-jokes and interviews with minor celebrities. Bring back Lynn Vaughn!

And I’d even suggest that those of us who welcome 90% of the Britishization process are engaging in a bit of a double standard — we love to talk about how great the New York Post is, while trashing the bias of the New York Times. Well, that makes for interesting contrarianism (and it’s true that I subscribe to Murdoch, Sulzberger), but the Post is both more biased and more sloppy, and the Times (to me, at least), is a far superior newspaper. I just want markets to have (at minimum) both.

News is a conversation and this is a great conversation about news.

What I love about this is not only that it’s a captivating discussion but also that Matt and Bill did call me out. I reacted so strongly to Rutten’s elitist, head-in-the-sand attitude that I skipped over some important caveats and thus I gave you an incomplete view of my opinion on opinionated news. Because I’m in the business, I assume you start knowing how much I value the news business, but I shouldn’t assume that.

Yes, objective, just-the-facts-ma’am reporting is not only desirable, it is the essence of good journalism and of its value to its consumers. Most reporters and editors working on most stories on most newspapers or on TV are trying to report objectively and are succeeding. As I said below, there isn’t a lot of bias in a fire. When I was a reporter, I covered too many stories and subjects to even attempt to have opinions on them. I know how hard my colleagues work to bring the people the news. I respect them tremendously. I love this business, or I wouldn’t be in it.

However, Rutten is right that we are facing choices on the future of news and so we have to deal frankly and bluntly with both sides of bias — that is, from the journalists’ perspective and from the consumers’ perspective — when it does enter the news.

From the journalists’ perspective, I’d say it’s damned hard to look at, say, Iraq coverage without having to parse the perspective of the source. When The Times doesn’t cover anti-terrorism demonstrations but does cover anti-American demonstrations, they and we need to ask what that means. And perhaps the time has come for even mainstream news organizations to be more open about their perspectives, so we can better judge what they report. If it is a sin to fail at objectivity it is a worse sin to conceal it or lie about it.

But there’s a new factor in this equation: the consumers’ desires. The audience for news is showing a preference for perspective and the evidence is clear: They’re watching FoxNews more than CNN; they’re reading the Guardian; they’re reading weblogs; they’re demanding more dialogue and transparency.

So we need to look at new ways to report news and deal with questions of objectivity, bias, and perspective.

I suggest that the way to look at it is as a conversation.

That conversation was started in a still-small voice at The Times when public editor Dan Okrent responded to complaints about the lack of coverage of the anti-terrorism demonstrations. He listened to the complaints and gave them to the Baghdad bureau and came back with, unfortunately, their excuse rather than their real reply. They said they didn’t know the date (and I said I don’t buy that because we all knew the date). Perhaps they just didn’t have the staff to cover it. Or perhaps they thought something else was more important. Or perhaps they thought this was not important. Or perhaps they didn’t think anyone would show up because they believed that most Iraqis are anti-American. They obviously thought something; the reporters, bureau bosses, and editors back in New York all made a judgment about this story. And we want to be let in on that judgment, on the process behind that decision, on the perspective that decision reveals — because then we can better judge both The Times reporting and the event itself.

In the past, such an exchange would have been impractical; Times reporters can’t end up in mail or phone dialogues with every reader. Okrent makes that slightly more practical, but that still leaves a middleman in the process: gatekeeper to the gatekeepers. (And, by the way, I said before that I wasn’t sure the anti-terrorism demonstrations rose to Okrent’s purview; I’ve now been convinced I was wrong.)

But now there is a far more practical way to have this conversation: The Internet and weblogs enable it. Those Timesmen could talk about what they covered and didn’t and why and how they view this on a weblog; readers could enter into a conversation there and via links from other weblogs; the Timesmen could reply.

But that would be a very frightening thing for anyone from the classic school of American journalism to do — utterly terrifying, for it would decentralize the control of the institution and what it properly stands for and it would reveal bias of individuals. That’s why you’re not seeing it happen readily.

I’ll admit that it scared me at first. It still does now, as I write something like this, close to home. But in for a dime, in for a dollar, I long ago decided to let it all hang out here and because I did, I’ve learned a great deal about new ways to look at news and the relationship to news’ consumers.

I’ve learned that news is a conversation.

So Rutten is right to say that we are facing “a referendum not only on America’s political future but also on the direction of its news media” (he’s just wrong about most of the rest). Herbert and Welch are right that we need to remind ourselves — me first — of the value of objective reporting. But Othello is also right that the consumers of news demand to join in on the conversation. We need to figure out how to do that. And if we do figure it out, we’ll end up with a stronger news business with enhanced credibility and a richer relationship with the people it serves.

I don’t pretend to know how to do that; I don’t! But we do need to start trying to figure out how we could do it. We need to talk about it.

: UPDATES: Terry Heaton has more in this conversation on his blog. Ditto Henry Copeland.

13 responses to “The conversation”

  1. OTB Avatar

    “Those Timesmen could talk about what they covered and didn’t and why and how they view this on a weblog; readers could enter into a conversation there and via links from other weblogs; the Timesmen could reply.
    But that would be a very frightening thing for anyone from the classic school of American journalism to do — utterly terrifying, for it would decentralize the control of the institution and what it properly stands for and it would reveal bias of individuals. That’s why you’re not seeing it happen readily.”
    Um, no, Jeff. Maybe those reporters don’t want to spend their lives being hunted-and-pecked to death by online fish-wives? Perhaps they need to focus their energies on paying the bills? Perhaps they are NOT accountable to you as you seem to believe?
    “I’ve learned that news is a conversation.”
    No, news is a business. Reporting the news is a skill. Blogs try to turn the conversation INTO news, but that’s not the same thing. I’m glad you’re beginning to qualify your arguments, because you and Sully, et al, have for a long time been arguing just the opposite: that the very unethical, un-factchecked, gossip mongering and opinion re-selling that is the blogosphere actually makes it BETTER than traditional news sources.
    The blogosphere will eat itself. Ongoing revisionism, deleting/changing of archives, and expedient political posturing is not courage, it’s narcissism, exactly as Rutten said. Bravo to him.

  2. Richard Cook Avatar
    Richard Cook

    I have not read the newspaper, in depth, in two years. Just basically use them as a pointer to topics I am interested in. Get all of my news fro weblogs. I already know what the bias of the blogger and don’t have to parse each statement. I know where he or she is coming from unlike the newpapers where you have to, in general parse each line. People I turn on to blogs are so amazed at the sheer amount of info available they generally use newspapers for pointers and give up on using them for understanding an issue. Newspapers still haven’t figured out that readers generally do not want a “filter”.

  3. Larry Avatar

    I’m not sure I agree that readers son’t want a filter. In fact, I think that’s what the blogosphere does so well.
    In the past, the local newspaper was your trusted filter for news. Going back 30 years or so, if you lived in a largish city, you could choose among two or even more newspapers to serve as your trusted filter to the news. Even now, when you read your local web site or paper, you’re trusting that you’ll get the “whole experience” of the news, neatly packaged and filtered for quick daily consumption.
    But now, the blogosphere has successfully taken over that role, providing hundreds and thousands of trusted filters to the news. Readers now seek out blogs that a) mirror their interests and b) often echo their point of view. More often than not, the blogs are pointing back to the traditional news sources — newspapers and broadcast media — but the blogs have successfully usurped the role of trusted filter.
    To me, this is the biggest change of all. Because whether or not the idea of a newspaper being “trusted” makes your eyebrow arch skyward, this is the core of the local newspaper business model: be a trusted filter for news and a marketplace for commerce. As the filters for news decentralize, first to radio and lately to the blogosphere, newspapers are in danger of losing their status as the last (local) mass medium, and the revenue that goes along with that status.

  4. Mithras Avatar

    Good points, OTB. I wish Jarvis would make up his mind. One minute, real newspapers are evil because they “pretend” to be reporting the news. The next, whoops! Can’t have all this bloggish opinionating if there isn’t a hard base of fact to check it against. Murdoch and Jarvis’ beloved “conversation” (how many times can he say it?) sure as hell aren’t going to provide that base.

  5. Eric Deamer Avatar

    I think some of the pro “objectivity” commenters are conflating objectivity with basic intellectual honesty and reporting standards. Having a point-of-view and admitting it does not automatically lead to sloppier or shriller reporting. What is irksome about the British and Australian hacks mentioned is not simply that they are biased, but that they will mangle facts to support that bias. What is irksome about Al Franken and Ann Coulter is not merely that they are biased but they are shrill and simplistic in propounding that bias. The difference between them and good reporters, such as, say, John Burns, is not that he is more objective. He is obviously strongly biased against Saddam Hussein. He is, however, intellectually honest and thorough as a reporter and a writer. In the name of “objectivity” on the other hand, reporters try to draw moral equivalence between Saddam Hussein’s government and America’s, refuse to call him a dictator, refuse to call terrorists terrorists etc. etc. Objectivity is not the same thing as basic intellectual honesty, good fact-checking etc. and the lack of one doesn’t necessarily mean that lack of the other.

  6. David Avatar

    In 1994, I was heading up a state reform project for our Governor here in Washington State. This reform was very “top-down”, we experts were going to inform communities on the best approaches to utilization of scarce state resources. I jumped into the development of community forums, convinced that the reform would be my pontification of policies I was well aware of, but communities, as citizen panels of government “consumers” would be passive receipiants of. I was sure that I knew the needed outcome and how to bring it about.
    Guess what (you know where I’m leading, right?): the community members and I engaged in what we came to refer to as a “conversation” about policies effecting their community. In four short years, my entire beleif system was challenged, changed and made better by understanding that DEMOCRACY (and the practice of governing) itself is a converstation. When I read your posts regarding your insight into the notion of news as conversation, I get goose-bumps. Go Jeff!

  7. Donnah Avatar

    Re Welch- Lynn Vaughn chose to get out of the business. She said she was tired of worrying about her hair.

  8. John Smith Avatar

    I agree that most news consumers do want a filter – the blogosphere is not only tiny numerically in terms even of a generous measure like reach, but it is, I suspect, filled with atypically active consumers of news, parsers at the ready. What I suppose one might call a vanguard movement – essential to get the process going, but in itself capable of limited impact.
    The essential dialogue between producers and consumers of news will be expensive – and the investment won’t be made just to cater for bloggers, however noisy.
    Objective journalism is pernicious as a concept because (amongst other things) it authorises reliance on the filter; as well as suggesting a false method of analysing news .
    I agree that the phrase is unhelpful in delineating a common ground of basic standards that can surely be agreed fairly readily – there certainly are checkable facts that should be checked, conflicts of interest disclosed and so forth.
    It’s concepts of journalism higher up the ladder of abstraction with which I have difficulty, when they tend to deny the existence of meta factors that are bound to affect any piece.

  9. Jeff Jarvis Avatar

    Mithras:
    Well, I can always count on you for a snark.
    There’s nothing at all inconsistent in what I’m saying. It’s not either/or; it’s and and always has been. I’ve said from the start that weblogs are nothing without real reporters gathering real news. And I’ve said that reporters and editors would be wise to listen to what their readers are saying here. I’ve always been about trying to figure out how these two media worlds live prosperously together — since, of course, I live in both worlds.

  10. KMK Avatar

    Eric hit the nail on the head “What is irksome about the British and Australian hacks mentioned is not simply that they are biased, but that they will mangle facts to support that bias.” Exactly.
    Jeff initially wrote “I had no bias; I was concerned only with getting the facts and quotes and lead right. What bias could there be in a fire? Hot is hot.” This is reporting. This is journalism.
    OTB you’ve got it backwards. News has always been a conversation. Blogs turn news into online conversation. I have a hard time believing you’ve never doubted anything you’ve ever read much less that you never talked about it with someone else. Why did you bother to leave a comment? To get your opinion out there? Try doing that with a newspaper article you don’t agree with.
    The only posturing we’ll continue to see is that of big media as it tries to counter the online connectivity made possible by the evolution of the blogshpere.

  11. Don B Avatar

    Striving for objectivity is a worthy goal, as long as the media realize that it is a goal, rather than something they exude effortlessly. Those in the mainstream media often have an Olympian attitude that they have attained objectivity, and scoff at claims that bias has seeped into their reports. It’s that cluelessness and arrogance that honks most people off more than the bias itself.

  12. Ruth Hoese Avatar
    Ruth Hoese

    I live in the country so far out I have no paper delivery, but I do have satellite TV. Oh, how I wish we had at least one news channel that really gave only news, straight news, maybe an elaboration of the only real news on most days – that little scrawl across the botton that covers anything you might really want to see.
    C-Span and C-span 2 are great for seeing our congress folks in action. We watch both a lot, and when we see sound bites from the days news, speeches, etc. we know how the news is slanted by use of editing and omission. So much is left out completely, no sound bites, not even a mention. I guess you could call me a news junkie, but blogs are where it is at for commentary as far as I am concerned. I can read all the national and local papers I want, just by clicking on a bookmark, then I can go to the blogs and get other peoples take on what is out there, what is hidden, and many of the good ones are careful to look up the true facts from days gone by. The bad news is I live so far out that this comes to me 28,800 bps. Thanks all you good bloggers for keeping me updated even at a slow logon rate.

  13. Greg D Avatar

    Would I like to read an objective newspaper? Sure. Does one exist anywhere in the world? Not that I’ve found.
    Let’s consider some basic characteristics of an “objective” news source:
    1: Does not simply repackage press releases as news.
    2: Treats “activists” with the same suspicion it shows towards corporate spokesmen (both have agendas).
    3: Treats the NRA and HCI with the same respect, as well as Planned Parenthood / NARAL and the National Right to Life Committee.
    4: Doesn’t do “he said, she said” reporting, but actually digs into the topic, finds out who is lying / exaggerating / ignoring uncomfortable data, and reports it.
    5: Keeps track of the correctness of people’s predictions, and calls them on repeated failures.
    I don’t know of any news source in the world that meets these basic requirements, and I know that none of the US Mainstream Press come even close to meeting them.
    P.S. I was very amused to see Matt Welch blaming CNN’s biased news reporting on competition from Fox. It’s a comment that tells us much more about Mr. Welch, than it does about the company that was known as the Communist News Network long before Fox came on the scene.