France, the bizarro nation

France, the bizarro nation
: A most bizarre story from France: Faced with hate crimes against religious minorities, the response of the government is not to protect those minorities, but instead to tell them to hide their religion.

Muslim girls in France could be barred from wearing headscarves in schools after an expert commission recommended a ban on “conspicuous” religious signs.

The official commission headed by former minister Bernard Stasi has released its findings on issues relating to religion and the state.

French President Jacques Chirac will announce next week whether he supports the commission’s recommendation.

The ban would also include the Jewish skull-cap and large Christian crosses….

Mr Chirac, who is expected to address the nation next week with his own conclusions, has hinted that he could back a formal ban.

Last week he said France felt “in a certain way under attack as result of the display of ostentatious religious signs, which is totally contrary to its secular tradition”.

He added: “We cannot accept ostentatious signs of religious proselytism, whatever the religion.

Wacky on so many levels. In this country we believe that separation of church and state is about protecting the church and the freedom to believe whatever one wants. In France, separation means hiding religion. Sounds like the land of Lenin and Stalin, not the land of liberty, brotherhood, and equality.

I suggested about a week ago that the appropriate response to attacks against Jewish children in France would be for Chirac to start wearing a yarmulke himself. Instead, he tells the children to take them off. He tells girls to take off their scarves. So wrong.

31 responses to “France, the bizarro nation”

  1. Eric Deamer Avatar

    The anti-head-scarf thing was not in order for Moslems to avoid attacks but instead was couched in more liberal and political terms. The idea is that the headscarves are a symbol of oppression of women. Many major French actesses have come out in support of the ban, including Emannuele Beart. I don’t know what I think about it.

  2. shell Avatar

    I’m reminded of the de-Christianization of France during the revolution.

  3. Dave Avatar

    There’s more to the head scarves than a display of religious sentiment. They are a way of separating the Muslim community from the larger French community. It’s a rejection of the country’s values and mores.

  4. Lola Avatar

    Taken this far, it means Orthodox Christian priests cannot wear their cassocks, bishops cannot wear their skoufa and cassocks, pious Orthodox Christian women cannot wear their headscarves in public venues.
    No wonder when you’ve got French leaders trying to get all mention of Christianity, which shaped the formation of Europe culture, out of the EU “constitution”.

  5. Anil Avatar

    “It’s a rejection of the country’s values and mores.” Right, just like a yarmulke is a rejection of the country’s values and mores, right?
    And working on getting mention of Christianity out of the EU constitution is the *best* thing the french have done lately.

  6. Dar Avatar

    How about everybody wear grey mumus and get uniform haircuts? We wouldn’t want to risk offending anyone by visibly displaying our opinions, religion, or ethnicity. After all, we would risk inciting violence by the victims of our offensive behavior.

  7. Jack Tanner Avatar
    Jack Tanner

    “It’s a rejection of the country’s values and mores.” Right, just like a yarmulke is a rejection of the country’s values and mores, right?
    Head scarves aren’t religious in the sense of yarmulkes but are an indication of subjagation. In a free society where equal rights are guaranteed to all they are a rejection of values.

  8. ....a moment with Easycure Avatar
    ….a moment with Easycure

    We’ll need to liberate France again in the not-so-distant future.
    Or maybe next time, we just don’t do it.
    In this dog eat dog world, the French are a bone.

  9. Catherine Avatar

    I am not surprised. My French teacher told the class that two students who wore the crucifix on a necklace were told to button their blouses and cover them. Apparently they fought back and lost. The teacher spoke of a “proud, secular, France.”
    The people on this board who speak about religious or sexual subjugation are missing the point. THIS is the reason that the Pilgrims and Puritans left Europe because if they were seen for who they were (not Anglican in Britain or Catholic in France) they were helplessly persecuted. They had to practice their faith in secret or risk rejection by society or worse, go to jail.
    While today, the French government may not be persecuting religions directly, it is definitely infringing on religious freedom and basically saying that signs of faith warrant attack as they are “attacking” France. They are FORCING SECULARISM WHICH IN ITSELF IS A TYPE OF RELIGION AND CULTURE the way France is “enforcing” it. You MUST conform to our standards! How Fing elitist and wrong.
    Insanity.

  10. Cara Remal Avatar

    Jeff,
    I really don

  11. Yehudit Avatar

    You are all missing the point. It is not up to the state – or to you, Mr. Condescending Liberal – to dictate to individuals which articles of clothing are “oppressive.” Sheesh.
    Orthodox Jewish women wear headscarves or wigs, and long dresses with long sleeves. Are you going to advocate for a law that forces them to wear miniskirts and tank tops? Not to mention the yarmulke.
    Somehow people of all religious beliefs manage to dress in a variety of styles here in the US without burning down synagogues every week. Just a thought.

  12. Katherine Avatar

    Cara, it makes not one whit of difference whether you or anyone else thinks headscarves are a valid religious expression. If the women believe they are and want to wear them, it should be their right. If I start a church of one and it calls for me to wear a headscarf, that is my right.
    Now, if anyone acting as a private citizen wishes to convince me not to wear my headscarf, or to convince Muslim women that the headscarf is unnecessary, that is their right as well. But it is way out of line for the government to forbid a religious expression as harmless to others as wearing an article of clothing.

  13. jon Avatar

    hideous hijab is the symbol of political, extremist islam. islam must be practiced in mosques, not in public on the streets if the religion of peace(tm) really wants to coexist with the western secular tradition. if not, then the religion of peace(tm) has no place in the west.

  14. Richard Bennett Avatar

    In related news, young women were ordered to stop wearing mini-skirts lest they incite men to rape them.
    Isn’t this what they call “blaming the victim?”

  15. Anonymous Avatar

    Well, actually my daughter’s school bans all sorts of things from belly tops to high heels. and they wouldn’t let her wear them even if she said her religion made her do it.
    Personally I think the hijab is appalling and I’ve often wondered why they’re always made in themost uncomfortable synthetic fabrics. I want those women to take them off. But I believe the best way to get them off is through discussion not a ban. The same goes for those Hassidic women with their shaven heads and wigs. How comfortable is that?

  16. Maciej Ceglowski Avatar

    The three pillars of education in France are “publique, laique, obligatoire” – public, secular, and mandatory. That is a legacy of late 19th century progressivism, and provides a context for this kind of debate. Comparisons to Lenin and Stalin are pretty silly – you can make a case that conspicuous display of religious affiliation at school is intimidating to students of minority faiths (for example, if you are the only girl without a headscarf in your class). I don’t know that I would argue the French approach to church/state separation over the American one, but I think calling it ‘wacky’ is a little parochial.

  17. Gabriel Gonzalez Avatar
    Gabriel Gonzalez

    Hey, France is a different country, with different traditions. The American way of virtually complete tolerance may be difficult in a Catholic country with secular principles(separation of church and state) and no real multicultural tradition. You could also have hundreds (thousands?) of French Muslim girls insisting on wearing the veil, more as a political/cultural symbol of protest (defiance?) than a religious symbol. But who is to make that judgment? There are those that want a complete ban on the headscarf: mostly the far right, many members of the governing Gaullist/Lib

  18. Anthony Avatar

    I am surprised the “reverse” situation in Italy has not been mentioned. An Islamic activist obtained a court order to have crosses removed from an Italian School.
    An Italian court has ordered a crucifix removed from a classroom — setting off a debate in a secular but culturally Catholic nation that is home to the Vatican and where a law still requires public schools to display a cross.
    The ruling Saturday highlights the country’s awkward relationship with its growing immigrant population, whose presence belies the notion of Italy as a solely Christian nation.
    Islamic activist Adel Smith, an immigrant from Egypt whose father was Italian, filed suit challenging the legality of the cross in the elementary school attended by his two sons in the small town of Ofena, 90 miles northeast of Rome.
    “Above all, Italy is a secular country,” Smith said. “The Vatican is one thing, the Republic of Italy is another. The decision of the judge was independent and impartial.”

  19. Jeremy Avatar

    IMHO, if adults want to wear weird clothing, then they should be able to.
    But kids should be prevented from wearing them, at least in school.
    I know in the US, I’ve always felt sorry for children of Quakers and other nusto, anti-technology sects. What chance do they have for a normal childhood? Very little.

  20. Yehudit Avatar

    “I know in the US, I’ve always felt sorry for children of Quakers and other nusto, anti-technology sects. What chance do they have for a normal childhood? Very little.”
    This is satire right? Because Quakers dress and ue technology just like everyone else. Are you thinking of Amish?

  21. Meezer Avatar

    Yeaah, those poor little Amish kids. They have to spend hours a day with their parents, working and playing with them. They have to endure an entire community devoted to their welfare. Too bad they don’t get the fun and advantages of being latchkey kids. At least the Amnish walk their talk about the importance of children.

  22. Cara Remal Avatar

    Katherine:
    I said before that the most important part of the passages I quoted dealt with the fact that children, remember we’re talking of young girls here not grown women, are hampered by this garment as they have limited peripheral vision, cannot hear well (as it covers the ears), and it has been shown that they are more likely to suffer from depression and plummetting grades in school. To me, a child’s welfare comes first.

  23. Vlad the Inhaler Avatar
    Vlad the Inhaler

    If I hear just one more story coming out of France I think I’m going to puke. I’m sick of France. They’re not a great nation anymore. Even their movies are starting to suck. It’s high time we just went back to ignoring them like we always have.

  24. Reuben Avatar

    Problem: Conservative muslim girls enjoy wearing the head scarves. Being in public without one, they would feel indecently exposed.. Much like a conservative baptist woman wearing a bikini to the grocery, I would think.
    Arab men are mostly disgusting lecherous pigs so one could inferr the value of such a tradition in that culture. A lady must protect herself and by covering herself she protects herself from the pig men who are the sorts who might strap a bomb on themselves and become martyrs so they will have 72 virgin girls and boys to bugger in heaven.
    So, my point is — perhaps its not the most politically affable thing for a European leader to do right now as all of Europe has a very sizable population of Muslim immigrants.

  25. Sandy P. Avatar

    Anthony, the mayor had some harsh words for the judge and he was removed. Italians were not happy. The cross is integral to Italy.

  26. Rootbeer Avatar

    Perhaps they should institute the rule I fantasized about as a 12-year-old boy, and force all schoolgirls to attend their classes in the nude…!

  27. Pele Avatar

    See a doctor fella.

  28. KMK Avatar

    I can’t understand what Chirac is getting on at. Once the “ostentatious signs” are removed from society then what? Hate crimes will go down? What exactly did the “expert” find in his study to come to this conclution? Is it just children that must remove these offensive items or the whole French population? I’m confused.

  29. J-Mo Avatar

    Reuben, the fact that the Muslim population in France is exploding is exactly the (hidden) reason for the ban. The French are Socialists, and as such, they prefer to have religion erased or at least minimized from their society, and especially their politics. That’s not been a problem with the Christians, who have been more and more apathetic toward their religion over the years. But the Muslims have a real conviction about their faith, and that scares the French. Rightfully so, because at the rate at which the Muslims are growing in France, they will be able to take over that country and impose Islamic rule in less than 20 years.

  30. Catherine Avatar

    J-Mo:
    I don’t think it has to do with socialism as much as elitism. Elitists tend to think people who are religious observant at all (at whatever degree) are simpleton’s worthy of ridicule. They are fools. As I said in my post above this extreme secularism (to me, a form of dogma) was imposed on two Christian girls several years back who dared to wear the crucifix on a necklace to class and were told to cover it up.
    Again, as I said above, those who go on and on about oppressive muslim practices are missing the point completely. I never want to hear again how wonderfully liberal France is. They seem pretty “close minded, man” to me.

  31. J-Mo Avatar

    Catherine, I agree with you, but to me, the Elitism and Socialism are hand in hand for the French. The Elitism stems from their sense of cultural superiority they claim over everyone else. This, I think is a by product of their political purpose, the “utopian socialist society”.
    As with anything else (successful companies, sports teams, cultures, etc.) hubris is ultimately the downfall of the once great.
    p.s.: I’ve read your other posts, you have good thoughts, keep sharing them.