The media pundit's pundit. Written by NYC insider Jeff Jarvis, BuzzMachine covers news, media, journalism, and politics.
What do they do in there?
: So New York is trying to mandate that women get twice as many restrooms as men because they take longer.
I have a simpler solution: If women didn’t always take another woman to the bathroom with them, there’d be half as many of them in there and it would take half the time.
You’re welcome.
: UPDATE: Getaloada the comments. Boy, news is a conversation.
Alright, I know this is silly, but I must defend the ladies.
A. It takes longer to deal with pantyhose, squatting, straightening your slip, etc… than it does to unzip and shake.
B. And for those ladies that wear the tight clothing that all you men seem to appreciate, this procedure can take MUCH longer.
C. There are those monthly times when women have to attend to more than just the pantyhose, slip and tucking your blouse smoothly into your skin tight miniskirt.
Maybe we don’t need twice the rooms but twice the stalls.
In anycase, it does take most women longer, even when they go in solo.
CBK
Women and public toilets is a topic of both humorous delight and practical concern. We all have seen the long waiting lines outside an already full women’s washroom. Meanwhile, the men’s room is practically, if not totally, empty.
It’s hard not to make some kind of remark in sympathetic support for those poor ladies that have many more minutes to wait (usually, quite patiently, I might add).
My take on this is that women almost regard a trip to the “ladies room” as a social activity as well as a necessity. This provides them an opportunity to discuss those concerns best left unheard by their male companions. The ladies seem to always leave enmasse for the washroom; as if they all had syncronized bladders. And, they often bring their children with them.
The men, on the other hand, know that a trip to the washroom has just one purpose: get in, do whatever it is you came there for, mind your own business (no glancing around) and get out.
Sometimes, I have offered to play security guard for any woman needing to use an empty men’s room.
And if women have more restrooms, we men wouldn’t have to wait as long for them to come back.
My understanding was that in many public places, men’s rooms have double the amount of plumbing fixtures (urinals and stalls). The women’s rooms, which are generally back-to-back with the men’s room in order to share plumbing, have only the stalls.
Jeff, why? If people want or need to take longer, let them take longer. I don’t know any women, and certainly none of my women friends do this, who go to the bathroom together. But I’m sure there are some. Maybe it’s generational, don’t know. Even so, women hanging out in the “lounge” area has no effect at all on the line for the stalls. Women do take longer, we’re built differently, who cares. Just get some more stalls. There are other things that make men different/less efficient, but no one is proposing that we not deal with that stuff either. People are different. Adjust and provide.
In the same space you can fit fewer stalls than a combination of urinals and stalls. The space with urinals AND stalls provide more locations for more people to simultaneously do what they need to do. Since – because of gender plumbing differences and social norms – all women need to go in stalls, we actually have fewer locations to do our thing in a given bathroom.
Anyway, when women go to the bathroom together they hang out at the sinks and fix their makeup, maybe take turns using the toilets, but the fact that they are talking doens’t make either of them stay longer in the stall itself. So how many women are in the same bathroom has nothing to do with how many toilets are available at any given time.
Easy solution: co-ed restrooms.
Equal rights is equal rights. Just ask the NCAA athletic departments. We demand parity in other areas, we have to have it here. Women and men should have the exact same amount of restrooms. No exceptions. If women get more, I want more. I’ll sue to make sure justice is served.
But seriously, is this something the freakin government should be involved with?
Big Brother is Wiping You!
Jeff: You are quite the provocateur :-). I think women also wonder some things about our bathroom habits – like why we have this habit of bringing reading material into office restrooms or home bathrooms. I got curious once and asked women who read my blog if they read in the bathroom as well, some interesting responses.
Oops – forgot the link.
I still find it a little strange that some people spend their time in the restroom on their cell phones. I guess multitasking is the wave of the future in all phases of life.
And what’s with all the sinks in the men’s restrooms? Almost no one uses them. :o
Men, ever wonder why we stand so stalwartly at the common urinal, staring straight ahead, deathly afraid to say hello or even acknowledge the guy next to us (at least not until we have finished our business)? It’s almost like primitive territoriality at work; being challenged for primacy at the urinal, for heaven’s sake.
Ladies, I hope you are a bit more friendly in your washrooms.
We have to take other women with the bathroom with us because we need to get their opinion on the new clothes we’re ordering online at the high-speed Internet kiosks that are provided for us. We need someone to hold our purse while we take advantage of the free massages that are proferred. We need someone’s opinion on the new haircut that we are recieving at the Ladies Restroom Hair Salon. And since we all know there are full open bars in the back staffed by shirtless, straight male dancers, we need someone with us so we don’t have to drink alone. So screw potty parity; I don’t want you guys getting anything that we already have. There’s only one place it is not a man’s world, and that is the ladies restroom.
The key word is MANDATE – not request, not plan in the future or anything else. Good to see Bloomberg’s dealing with the top priority issues. We’ll get back to you on security screeners at the airports and enforcing INS regs, but in the meantime make sure the corner bar adds another ladies restroom and makes the patrons smoke outside.
Maybe there should be more restrooms for women. Maybe, in some spots, e.g., lingerie stores, there should be more than twice as many. Maybe, in some spots, e.g., sports bars, there should be fewer restrooms than there are for men. This is actually a pretty good example of something that the free market can address very well; if women are really bothered by restroom access, they’ll probably avoid stores, restaurants, etc., with poor access and patronize the ones with good access.
How is this an appropriate topic for the government of New York City?
One last comment from me on the washroom issue.
It is a pain in the behind (pun intended) to be told” “there is no washroom in the store; you’ll have to use one in some other store nearby”.
I think having at least one co-ed washroom should be a mandatory part of qualifying for a business license.
simple: remove all mirrors.
Jeff – WE CAN NOT USE URINALS! WE NEED PRIVACY TO GET NAKED BELOW THE WAIST and DO our BUSINESS! WE CAN NOT JUST UNZIP AND PEE! If we NEED to sit down, we have to put tissue paper all over the seat (takes time).
WOMEN TEND TO WASH THEIR HANDS!
Never mind when you have to change a tampon/pantyliner.
I don’t know any women who pee together, but sometimes we STAND IN LINE together and you feel like you are missing less I suppose.
Last, I have never seen women take more time than necessary as a woman with the above issues. It just takes longer because WE NEED STALLS to handle the above issues.
I like how so many men, who I =assume= haven’t gone into women’s restrooms to observe the behavior there, can talk about what we do in there.
Many of the practical problems of longer stall use are mentioned above — another is that women are usually the ones who have to take the kids to the bathroom… and that takes =forever=. I like the idea of co-ed bathrooms, but it reduces the efficiency of having urinals for men.
In places that need only one or two toilets, I think co-ed bathrooms with lockable doors are fine. Most places I’ve been to with one or two toilets do just that.
Years ago one of our state reps in NC proposed what he called the “potty parity bill.” He caught a lot of flak back then, but seems he was just ahead of his time.
Catherine, you just took the words right out of my mouth. Guys, surely you’ve noticed that women are built somewhat differently from y’all?
I remember missing several minutes of the third period at a hockey game, until, in disgust, I simply used the men’s room, calling out my entry as a warning. Maybe we need a “Urinals” room, and a “Toilets” room. That way demand could determine needed numbers.
Not sure you mentioned it above, but indeed, the preening does not generally stop the line from moving into the restroom. It is the stall use.
Perhaps you men should observe sometime. The line you see outside is single, but once you enter a packed ladies’ room, the line bottlenecks to wait for open stalls. We all patiently wait as one stall empties, next up takes it, almost like waiting at those multiple interections with stop signs all around. We take our turns one by one. If we bring a buddy who wants to chat and preen, they move off to preen while we do our duty. The preeners don’t impact the flow of the line at all. Sometimes, the pal guards the doors of those whose latches don’t work.
Once out of the stall (after asking the stall next to you for a wad of toilet paper, digging for the tampon, please dispose of properly, straightening the panty hose, tucking the blouse in, etc…) we move to the sink where our pal is preening. Next lady gets the stall.
So you see, the chatting, preening, et al, have no bearing on what really creates the bottleneck.
CBK
Ditto CBK – it’s not the preening and who ever up there who suggested we use the “Ladies Lounge” has also never been in one. No one wants to lounge. There isn’t a bar in there (unfortunately). Its an adjoining room with dirty carpet from the 60’s where you are staking out your place in line to the tiled toilet area.
“Men, ever wonder why we stand so stalwartly at the common urinal, staring straight ahead, deathly afraid to say hello or even acknowledge the guy next to us (at least not until we have finished our business)? It’s almost like primitive territoriality at work; being challenged for primacy at the urinal, for heaven’s sake.”
Or, we don’t want them to think we’re trying to sneak a look at their wangs.
Interesting conversation… wow, people get really mad about this subject, don’t they?
I travel frequently between NJ and Richmond, VA, and I always drive. My regular stops are the Sheetz just over the VA border on Route 301, and one of the major rest stops in Maryland, or Delaware if I must. Maryland has come up with a brilliant scheme to solve the rest room parity problem: During high-travel hours, the men’s room on one side of the building becomes a women’s room, thereby making three women’s rooms and one men’s room.
During these high-traffic hours, I have NEVER seen a line for the men’s room. But there are still lines for the women’s rooms.
Go figure.
Install the “Love Toilet” from SNL. Voila, you’ve doubled your capacity!
Jeff – WE CAN NOT USE URINALS! WE NEED PRIVACY TO GET NAKED BELOW THE WAIST and DO our BUSINESS! WE CAN NOT JUST UNZIP AND PEE! If we NEED to sit down, we have to put tissue paper all over the seat (takes time).
WOMEN TEND TO WASH THEIR HANDS!
That’s right, in today’s culture it’s okay to say bad things about men (we’re dirty and crude, never mind that it was a man who invented indoor plumbing), and the standard of all things good and righteous is the female way. The term for anti-male behavior is misandry. We live in a deeply misandrous society, where men and maleness is constantly attacked. Just remember, we live in a country where there’s a tv show with gay guys showing heterosexual males how to be attractive to today’s women. Maybe now that Queer Eye For The Straight Guy is a hit, they’ll develop other similar shows, like Bargain Hunting With Jews or Dancing With Negroes.
Give me a break. I should pay more taxes so you can take the time to line the toilet seat with paper because you’re worried that you’re going to catch some disease and the layer of paper will somehow ease your filth phobia? There’s something so nasty on that seat that you can’t sit down but tissue paper will protect you. Okay. We’re talking about your butt here, not some surgical instrument or a kitchen device. Maybe the next time you’re interested in receiving oral sex your boyfriend or husband will remember how dirty you really think things are down there and he’ll have second thoughts.
I’ve never understood the female fetish about toilet seats. Lower your own damn seat. If you want us to raise the seat when we urinate, don’t blame us when you sit on some cold porcelain in the middle of the night. Get over it. We don’t like sitting in urine either, but we’re smart enough to check to make sure there’s a seat when we sit down. I don’t think I’ve ever known a guy who used a seat liner or put down paper on the dreaded “public toilet seat”, but it’s apparently quite common that if women aren’t supplied with a seat cover dispenser they will fabricate a makeshift toilet seat cover out of wads of paper (later to be flushed and clog up the drains for a most likely male plumber to come and snake out), lest their derriere share a perch formerly occupied by someone with slightly less fastidious habits than theirs. Some women will even avoid the seat entirely, choosing to squat. Remember, this is in the women’s restroom where all those male slobs don’t pee on the seat. Considering how women think men are such filthy slobs, I’m surprised nobody is marketing a home seat-cover dispenser.
Of course one reason why the lines are shorter is that men are efficient with their cleanliness. You see, just as men don’t always know what goes on in the Women’s Room, the Men’s Room has it’s esoterica as well. What with our analytical minds and all, we men have figured out that while it can take a minute or two to unzip, drain a concert’s worth of beer out of your bladder and zip up, it only takes seconds to wash your hands. A splash of soap, a bit of water, rinse and wipe. When the line starts getting long, we shift some of the sinks to urinal status and go in the sink.
FWIW, I worked in a lab where the women’s locker room had a small lounge, with some comfortable chairs and a sofa. The men’s locker room had lockers and wooden benches.
One other thing. If you are a woman, the next time you complain that your husband did something gross like urinate with the seat down or leave shaving debris in the sink, try to remember that bloody tampon, half wrapped in toilet paper, that you left on the vanity.
In the trendy progressive city where I live, this phenomenon is readily observable. The places where it is absolutely the worst? The city-owned theaters. Run by the painfully politically correct, they can’t find a bean to add any women’s washrooms. Since I’m not a woman, I don’t understand the lack of complaint or organized lobbying to resolve what cannot possibly be that difficult a problem to fix. The last — in fact, the only — time I can remember women doing anything about theater issues was when Sam Kinison was scheduled to appear and some of the unionized female staff refused to work that shift because they would have been traumatized by the sexism and homophobia. That, some of them were literally in tears about. The lineups that use up the entire duration of an intermission for a woman to access a toilet don’t occasion any protest.
This is hilarious.
It’s pretty revealing to see how this compares for number of comments compared to, say, Howard Dean’s poll numbers or the Geneva Accord.
And we haven’t even gotten to the subject of waiting in line to use the porta-potty and the horrors that lie within.
Talk about reducing life down to the very basics, and lessons in humility.
Actually, there’s a serious issue behind all this. Those most actively promoting potty parity seem to be those who favor equal outcomes as opposed to equal opportunity.
I have no problem with an arena thinking that it’s good business to have women spend more time at the concession stand than waiting to take a leak. The problem is that no matter how many stalls you install it will still take women more time to go to the bathroom than men.
The equal outcomes crowd can take heart. There is a way to equalize things so that men don’t end up hanging around the women’s john waiting for their wives or girlfriends. They can reduce the number of urinals and stalls for men until all men, always, have to stand in line. Altenatively they can put a timer lock on the men’s stall doors to restrict the number of users.
Of course, they’ll still have to hire a guard to keep us guys from using the sinks.
I skimmed through some of the comments rather quickly but I haven’t seen anyone mention that most women go more often than most men. That would account for longer lines in the ladies room. I think there a few places where there should be more stalls for the women, such as concert halls and sports arenas – anywhere you might miss part of what you paid to see because you couldn’t get in and out of the restroom fast enough – but at stores, malls, restaurants, etc. it’s not that important. We can wait.
Unfortunately, it is not practical to require every public place to retrofit washroom facilities to keep up with increasing demand. Picture your favorite small cafe being required to spend several thousands of dollars just to minimally expand their existing capacity. These small businesses are already barely surviving on a small profit margin. I, for one, am willing to trade off the minor inconvenience for the amenities I go there for in the first place.
A short, funny story about a large restaurant in Old Sacramento (Calif.).
The washrooms were located next to each other on the second floor, at the top of a long stairway from the bottom floor.
The “MEN’S” and “WOMEN’S” signs are letters on a hand pointing at the other’s washroom. This provided popular entertainment for customers watching highly embarrased men and women coming out of the wrong restroom. Often, you can hear loud female screams as a man bolts in on an emergency run. I once saw a man smoking a cigar(this was years ago) march into the ladies room, presumably take care of business, and just as calmly stride out, cigar billowing a big cloud before him. Two totally startled women came out to face the happy crowd which gave them a big round of applause.
“It’s pretty revealing to see how this compares for number of comments compared to, say, Howard Dean’s poll numbers or the Geneva Accord.”
Well, this is something that actually affects people’s lives.
When I was in high school, my teachers would make girls go with another girl to the bathroom. They made the case that it was because of security, because girls are often “victims” when going to the bathroom. I guess being jumped and harrassed by a guy or something. I certainly see that point, I dunno what the statistics are or whatever though.
I just have to jump in here. There is another factor that no one has mentioned, or maybe they have and I missed it (a lot of comments up there) or maybe nobody knows this but me … women urinate more often than men, on average. The averages show up as totals for mass events, so even if women took exactly the same length of time to do their business, the queues would still be longer at concerts and ball-games. If there is any justification for women having more toilets to access, it would be that. When you add in the fact that men, with less need, already tend to have twice as many per room as women (due to the use of urinals) giving women twice the rooms is just equality.
Just to let you gentlemen know, not all women use the paper on the seat method.
Some, simply risk sitting, having faith in soap, janitors and immunological systems.
Others, like me, use the hover method. Good for the quadriceps.
CBK
cbk:
Thanks for mentioning the “hover” method of avoiding direct contact with the toilet. This is especially helpful if the toilet doesn’t have a cover at all, or if you have to use those gawd-awful porta-potties. My mother taught all of this trick as kids. I’m not sure if anyone else but me uses this method as it does require fairly strong quads, as you note.
One thing that also concerns me is the shallowness of the toilet bowl, placing the person (men, particularly) too close to the water level and potential contaminents. This is a good reason, in itself, to be able to “hover” above the seat level.
My mother (in her younger days) would squat with her shoes on the bowl, and that’s a real hover.
One last note relative to washroom courtesy. Public washroom users should take a lesson from the doctor’s hippocratic oath and, likewise, “Do No Harm”.
This may be one of those debates destined to be unresolved, but for the more adventurous:
How to pee standing up
Warning: The picture about 1/3 way down may be marginal for work.
Troublemaker’s link doesn’t work for me so here it is again. If you surf the rest of the site, there is also information on female-specific urinals.
What I’m wondering is why can’t we un-invent the urinal? Whoever decided, oh so long ago, that men must all like to urinate standing shoulder to shoulder in some sort of crazy ritual really ought to be dragged out and shot.
In the old Army, there was almost no personal privacy, even on the toilet. It was a common sight to see 10 toilets, with no visual barriers,
facing ten identicals right across the room in a large barracks. Of course, this just fit in with the double bunks, open bay sleeping spaces and morning shaves enmasse.
In Vietnam, the hard-ass 101st Airborne liked to make you pee down a plastic or metal tube driven into the ground and poop into a metal half- barrel; the contents to be hand burned with deisel fuel and stirred until nothing was left but ash. We always tried to stay upwind during this duty.