Bastards
: The news from Turkey keeps getting worse (according to FoxNews this morning): 25 dead, almost 400 missing, British consul-general missing.
And why are they demonstrating against Bush and Blair?
28 responses to “Bastards”
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hey the man with the red pen is doing a good job here, why did you delet my comment?
[ my kid reads this site. you started off with f words aplenty. i didn’t even read further. i killed (using my handy dandy treo 600 with a small screen). this is my house. please don’t crap on the carpet. thanks. ] -
Since when has this been anything about George Bush or dead Turks? It’s British street theatre- you know, “maybe if enough of us gather this whole anti-capitalist acid trip we’re on will become real”.
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Besides, I’m 99.999% sure that the protesters have already decided that the bombing is somehow Bush’s &Blair’s fault.
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sorry – but I am angry, cause a lot of people still do not understand – the terror is cause of bush and his folks
do you realy think you can stop terror with military power ? dont you think this is nonsens?
paul berlin -
paul — Daisies really don’t work.
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Hallo Paul –
how would you suggest we end terrorism??? -
daisies might not work, but daisy-cutters do.
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Paul-
How on God’s green earth did Bush & Co. “cause” terrorism?
And while I agree that the military cannot be the sole solution to the problem (rebuilding infrastructure, establishing political connections, fostering economic and social liberty are also required), withdrawing our armed forces won’t solve it either. In point of fact, withdrawing our armed forces will ultimately result in even more people dying than are dying right now.
But do let us know when you come up with a better plan than the one that is working most acceptably at the moment.
-Regards -
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/005066.html#005066
David Carr’s funny account. (with pictures!) -
Bin Laden declared war on the West in 1996.
911 planning was thought to have started in 1998.
The Kenyan embassy bombing was in 1998.
Bush was elected in 2000.
Bush caused the terrorism? -
Obviously, the war in Iraq has done wonders to stop Al Qaeda. You people just don’t get it.
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O’McSomething and others,
The main reason Turkey renigged on their earlier promise to allow us to stage in Turkey was that *they did not want to encourage terrorism*. They rolled over to placate Muslim extremists. And this is their reward. Just goes to show how much good appeasement does, doesn’t it? -
Oh god, big excuse, I promise I dont wont to critize the US chunta on this blog any more.
Paul from East Berlin -
Paul from Berlin, you should study your own history to get a better understanding of the (de)merits of appeasement.
“Peace in our times!” -
This page gives some examples of the things people here want to protest about…
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/11/280688.html -
Dear Dishman, dont tell me I sould learn my own history, me and my family are knowing our history very well. OK. But : we are talking here about people who are protesting here in Europe against your goverment. And most people here on the blog are not able to understand why. So tell me: Bush is now 3 years president, he is on war against terror for three years. and? anything happend? nothing. we have very big terror attacs now every four weeks. you should realize: the politic from bush and his friends is wrong, wrong wrong.
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O’McSomething,
al Qaida was always going to attack again. We opted for the more prudent course of eliminating their support structure which has had the positive benefit of reducing the number of people that they can kill at one time.
It has also motivated them to commit acts of desperation. Bomb Turkey? The nation that was a reluctant supporter and on occasion a fly in the ointment? Bomb Arabs in Saudi Arabia? The source for all their money?
Let’s talk after the war is over and then we can judge whether or not it has been effective at ending terrorist attacks.
Regards -
i thought the war is over? which war you mean? war in iraq? war against terror? war in afghanistan? tell me. And I dont judge if the politic is right or not – every child can see that this is the wrong way.
paul
by the way: I dont like micheal moore very much, but in some points he is right -
The War on Terror has been going on for 2 years, 2 months, not three years.
“we have very big terror attacs now every four weeks.” Hardly. Since we began our war on terror, the biggest attack hasn’t even killed three hundred, let alone three thousand. Your sense of scale is completely skewed.
As for learning your own history, apparently you missed a key point. Appeasement doesn’t work. Remember the Sudatenland? We do. We remember how well that worked, too. We also remember who got to clean up the mess that followed. -
Paul,
it finally hit me, listening to arguments from the eurodorks is like listening to a three year old. I used to think it was because the english skills of most euro posters were on the same level. But besides being a mean thing to think, I realized it was not the language that sounded childish. It’s the morality and simple view of the world that makes people like Paul come across like grade schoolers. How can one look at the world and think like you do Paul? How can you not see the obvious? I don’t argue with children about why life isn’t fair, and it seems to be about as fruitful to try to argue with you about how the world works. In the words of Bruce Hornsby, “Hell, man, how can you stand to think that way?” -
Finlay,
thanks for treating me like an idiot cause I am not speaking your language very well, but this is OK, why should you be different as your goverement? they treat the rest of the world, espacially muslim people, as idiots. and sure here in europe all people on the streets, journalist, intellectuals, writeres, filmmakers and so on, who are thinking the politic from bush and blair is not the right way are all togehter on a level of a three year all child. and sure to say military power is not the right solution against terror sounds as a very simple view of the world .
But I am ready to learn, so please tell me how the world works.
Best Paul -
No you misunderstand. I am a better person than you give me credit for. At first I thought your statements only sounded childish because you don’t write english very well. Now I know they sound childish because your whole worldview is childish.
The people demonstrating on the streets need to know that Islamofacists want the West destroyed no matter who is in charge of England or the US. That is reality. -
As a general rule, non-native speakers are rarely criticized for their butchering of English. I think what Finlay was saying is that your command of English is not the problem.
The Sudatenland and the Munich Accord are as good a place as any to start with “how things work”. The key lesson Americans have drawn from this is that there is evil in the world, and it needs to be confronted and defeated. “Playing nice” with it just doesn’t work. My grandfather was among those who paid the ultimate price of Neville Chamberlain’s fantasy.
“Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” -G. Orwell.
I wish it were not so… but “peace at any price” is temporary and carries a horrible price.
To put it even more bluntly, the price of life is death. At birth, we are all consigned to paying. History is full of people who tried to avoid paying, and ended up paying with interest. “Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.”
Sadly, people still drink the kool-aid. -
Why are they demonstrating against Bush and Blair? Maybe because Bush and Blair foolishly stirred up a hornets’ nest. Then Bush snorted, “Bring ’em on.” And now lots of innocent people are getting stung.
Nobody is suggesting that we should “play nice with terrorists.” But even Bush has admitted that there was no connection between the September 11 terrorists and Iraq.
The Iraq war hawks keep insisting that we are fighting terrorism, and that those who oppose the war are somehow appeasers. Sadly, all we are doing is killing more innocent people, putting our own people in harm’s way, and inciting more terrorism.
That, in part, is why people are demonstrating against Blair and Bush. -
I think your description of events works pretty well, and is a completely fair description of events as far as it goes. There’s just one thing I’d add. People were already getting stung before we upset the nest.
I don’t know if you’ve got any personal experience with hornets. I do, and the experience should have killed me. Hornets are mean and stupid. If you get stung by one in your home, you have to hunt the nest down and destroy it. You will get stung repeatedly until you do. The nest will only get larger, and it will never stop being a hornets nest… except to become several hornets nests.
We got stung, badly. Now we’re hunting down and destroying the hornets nests.
It’s the only way. -
finlay,
sorry to tell you are the prototyp of the american non very well educated citizien, no idea from the world but blab blabal blabalab
I think all people in the western world realized now that bushs war against terror is wrong – this guy made the world very unsafe – wake up listen to the world outside your radius, read newspapers, read comments, listen to other politicans, are they all childish like me? cant believe.
finlay, dont you think there are thousands of other ways to solve the problem – examples: solve the conflict israel palestina, second give the people in muslim countries the chance for better education, push the economy, money for democratic groups,.money for ngos, work together with a stronger un – and so and so
even jeff is doing a wonderful job here on his blog to support bloggers from iran and iraq, and call me naive and childish, but this is a very good way for a better understanding people from muslim countries.
tell me, you ever had been to muslim countries? you ever talkel to peole there? you asked for there needs? I tell you l lived and worked more then 10 years in the middle east, I can tell you the people are pissed of cause the ignorance of the usa – and believe me if the us goverment does not change there politics the terror will become more and more, there are millions of you people there with no jobs, no illusion, they will be the next osamas they have nothing to loose, come on this is the probelm which you should solve, and you think you can stop this with bombing muslim countries, -
Ya know, a few minor changes in your wording and you could sound like Paul Wolfowitz.
Some things to add to your consideration:
1) Saddam and his regime were killing, raping and maiming people. Even if every single terrorist act since 9/10/01 is thrown into the balance, we’ve still saved lives.
2) NGOs don’t have a very good track record for building long-term solutions. Local people have a far better track record.
3) Governments of the Middle East are a major obstacle to the economies. Saddam’s regime was one of the worst. He was sucking billions of dollars out of the economy.
4) A civil war to get rid of Saddam would have been far, far messier. -
Hello All,
I have enjoyed reading your comments and would just like to throw my 2 cents into this trans Atlantic love fest. I am serious when I say it is great to see both sides. But I am concerned with what I see in the european mindset and have a few issues I would like you to adress.
1. USA cannot save the world- we cannot be held responsible for the fact that most Muslim (and African) countries are a mess. If anyone has blood on their hands in those areas it is our Colonial European powers. Which bring us too the crux of the matter..
2. Humiliation. Euro’s and Muslims are humiliated that they are impotent. They can’t (or wont) resettle palestianians, stop ethis cleansing in their own backyards, generaly be responsible.
3. Suadia Arabia had all the money in the world at one point. Did they invest in education? Jobs? Technology? The future? Did they give every Palestianian 40 acres and a mule in SA? No, no and more no. They made their bed and now are broke and screwed.
So we have a lot of problems. What do Europeans and the US have in common? I think we would all agree that a liberal (non political sense) outlook, a curiosity to question, an openness, all sorts of things. So maybe you guys can find something in common as you tear aprt my comments and spelling.
Also- please stop mashing all Americans into one pigeon hole- very diustrubing and insulting. Most of us know our geography, reralize Pres. Bush isn’t a Churchillian orator, and have political thoughts that span the spectrum. So put down the “Blame USA” signs and look in the mirror. Or not. Just sit there. Blameless. As you become -what?
