BuzzMachine

The media pundit's pundit. Written by NYC insider Jeff Jarvis, BuzzMachine covers news, media, journalism, and politics.

Freedom of religion

24 comments on Freedom of religion

Freedom of religion
: The religious nuts who want God in government refuse to understand that the Constitution is their best protection.

They want prayer in school. They want the 10 Commandments in court.

They want to be ayatollahs. And fine for them as long as they are the ayatollahs; they’d have their way.

But what happens when I win the election? When I’m America’s ayatollah, I will decree gay marriage a fine thing. I will make abortion legal. I will get rid of laws concerning sexual behavior of adults. I will free Howard Stern to say whatever the F he wants on the radio. I will decree nudity a matter of free speech, bringing breasts to billboards as my little celebration of God’s creation and my effort to beautify America.

Yes, I’d make a fine ayatollah, if I do say so myself.

Don’t you see, Bubbas? Once you open the door for one religion to be in government and schools and courts, you open the door for that religion to be a religion other than yours. And that closes the door on yours. Once you let one religion in, you kick other religions out. That is wh we let none in.

That is precisely the protection of Constitution affords all faiths.

Our founding fathers were damned smart.

And you, Bubbas, are frighteningly stupid.

: I’m getting hell for using the apparently unPC term “Bubba.” Fine, I apologize to all the shit-kickers who kicked the shit out of me for that. But I’ll still call “Judge” Moore Bubba because I do want to insult him and if Bubba is an insult then Bubba is what I will call him.

: Also note the comments and the effort to say that a little God here or a few commandments there must be OK. Slippery slope, folks. Once you have someone saying what is and what isn’t OK religion, then you’re in trouble. Don’t cross that line. To a Buddhist or a Hindu, the 10 Commandments aren’t kosher; to an atheist, yes, God does not compute.

Separation of church and state is not anti-God or anti-church. The Constitution is strongly pro-God and pro-Church precisely because it protects your God and your Church (or whatever) from government interference. You’d think that anti-government religionists would be the first to get that, but they will be the last.

: Update: The woman who brought the case against “Judge” Moore — and the decidely unChristian behavior of alleged Christians against her. God bless her; she’s the one defending both God and the Constitution.

24 responses to “Freedom of religion”

  1. Rube Avatar
    Rube

    ‘Bubbas’?
    Jesus, man, why don’t you just call them ‘Leroys’?

  2. ken Avatar
    ken

    Jeff, I’m with you in principle here, but I don’t think it helps anything to lace your argument with Bubba references. It’d be one thing if you were doing a comedic routine and calling them cracker-ass-crackers or something, but the tone suggests a little more venom than humor.
    And it’s not like the South corners the market on this sort of behavior. Plenty communities throughout the north and west get involved with this sort of thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found a couple of Ten Commandment tablets on village greens in Jersey. (And on a slightly different tack, you might want to look into the Keystone Knights of the KKK, before you start feeling too smug about the Northeast.)
    Like I said, on this particular issue (and many others, actually … your site is one of my first stops of the day), but the Bubba comments seems too broad a stroke (implicating the entire state/region) and makes some overly sensitive types focus on a regional pissing-match rather than the issue … um, kinda like I’m doing now.
    Hell, I’m from south Louisiana and therefore don’t qualify as a Bubba. I’m a cajun and was raised Catholic, rather than Baptist or Methodist. Still, you don’t have to be religious to be a Bubba. And, last bit of news coverage I watched, there were plenty of black Alabamans fighting for the right of the ten commandments to be stuck on the courthouse lawn. I don’t think they’d be too keen on being lumped into a Bubba category.
    You’d be better off calling these people Christers. Or deluded ignorant religious fools. Offensive, maybe, but a lot more accurate.

  3. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    Lileks on his visit to Fargo:
    But the old City Hall is still the same, a low clean modern building with the Ten Commandments standing out front.
    They’ll be gone soon, I’m sure, and that will be a powerful message to all those Fargoans who’ve been tossing atheists on the bonfire every Sunday morning.
    As a factual point, the Ten Commandments don’t belong to a specific “religion” as they’re accepted by every Jewish and Christian sect, including your Church I would assume.
    The First Amendment was written because the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid having a single state run religion like the Anglican Church. The point was that there wasn’t to be a state-run religion and that everyone is free to believe as they choose, no more, no less. IMO opinion the point wasn’t to drive any expression of religion whatsoever, even the most anodyne and general expression, from the public sphere. They were all religious men after all.
    But if this kind of stuff really bothers you. Then go right ahead: Join the ACLU, get “in god we trust” off the money, get “under God” out of the Plede of Allegiance, stop Congress from having prayer sessions, etc.etc. I don’t think it would be the end of the world if these things were eliminated but I don’t exactly see us inching towards theocracy because of them, and I’m not sure if it will all make someone who lives in a Nigerian province with Sharia law and who’s buried up to their necks and about to get stoned breathe much easier.
    Oh, and on “Bubba”, though this event is going on in Alabama I’m not sure if all religious conservatives are from the South. Maybe you can think of a different pejorative to refer to, for instance, Justice Scalia when you cross that bridge.

  4. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    I agree with Ken here. I have plenty of Manhattan prep school sophisticate college educated friends who say stupid things like, “what do you mean Baptists are Christians? They aren’t Catholic.” You don’t have to be a Bubba to be stupid and ignorant. You ruin the argument by stooping to name calling.
    Otherwise, I agree with Jeff that in fact one of the reasons why religion flourishes in this country is that there is no state religion. The separation of church and state makes this possible.
    It also bothers me that this judge is defying the constitution. The law is the law. You want to campaign to have it changed, fine, but you don’t randomly choose which laws to follow and ignore ones you don’t like. This judge should be disbarred.

  5. A.W. Avatar
    A.W.

    I am with you on all of it except the “bubbas” line. Regional stereotyping and other forms of mass ad hominem attacks have no place in this debate.

  6. CBK Avatar
    CBK

    I really don’t see the 10 commandments as promotion of a particular religion. I see them as some good rules to live by.
    The objection to displaying these rules is that, according to scripture and legend, they came to Moses from God.
    Suppose Copernicus either believed, or fictionalized for acceptance sake, said that his understanding of the solar system was given to him by God. Would that change the fact that the Earth circles the sun? Should the state shun the truth of it because of where the knowledge came from?
    If the Buddha said:
    Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn’t learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn’t learn a little, at least we didn’t get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn’t die; so, let us all be thankful.
    Does it make any less sense? Does it promote Buddhism? Should it be banned from a bulletin board at Mary G. Montgomery Middle School?
    I’m not sure that the court house is an appropriate place for this monument. But it should be understood that the monument does not hold only the 10 Commandments. It also holds Jefferson’s words from the Declaration of Independence, those with reference Natures God.
    Should the Supreme Court building be redesigned to omit their representation of the tablets?
    Basically, I see this fight as freedom of religion vs. freedom from religion. And I accept that atheism is the default to freedom from religion. And furthermore, that atheism is it’s own religion. So by default, the freedom from religion is promoting an alternative view at the expense of all other views. No choices. No freedom. No expression.
    And I am an atheist. I don’t believe in the virgin birth. I don’t believe the Christ is King. I do believe that Christ’s teachings offer some wisdom to our world. Just because it came from Christ doesn’t mean I should refuse to hear the message. Just because the 10 Commandments came from Moses I will not refuse to hear the message. Those laws brought down on the tablets ARE the laws by which our civil society is based. They coincide with the laws of ALL civil societies. So I ignore Commandments that pertain to God and accept that these were probably very appropriate for Moses in his time with his people. The rest I accept as truth and words worth living by, words worth ruling by.
    CBK

  7. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Eric makes a good point. God is not a religion. I don’t think “In God We Trust” infringes on religious freedom.
    Also, Jeff acts as though anyone who is against abortion or gay marriage is against it for religious reasons. Not true.

  8. s'wonderful Avatar
    s’wonderful

    C’mon Jeff, how’bout it? Apologize to the bubbas.
    Just for a hurt loyal reader and Alabama-boy.
    As for Roy Moore, we’re just giving him the attention he so desperately wants. Remember that there are 8 other bubba-justices on that court who have sided against Moore.

  9. Rube Avatar
    Rube

    ken, do you really think it would be funny to call people ‘cracker-ass-crackers’? Even though I’m a white southern male, scum of the universe, I feel like I have as much right as anyone to live my life without being subjected to racial slurs.

  10. KMK Avatar
    KMK

    My office can’t get past “brining breasts to billboards.” They have named you the Ayatollah of bubbies.

  11. Gary Utter Avatar
    Gary Utter

    Read exactly what the Constitution says…
    “Congress [not local governments, just Federal] shall make no law [NO law, positive or negative, NONE] with regard to an establishment of religion…”
    At the time that was written, 12 of the 13 colonies had an OFFICIAL state religion. The STATES were allowed to do as they pleased, the Federal Government was forbidden to interfere.
    Just to be clear, I’m not a Christian, nor anything even close to a Christian. But the Constitution clearly says that if a State wants to establish a religion, the Federal Government has no authority to do anything about it.

  12. PhotoDude Avatar
    PhotoDude

    If you want to insult Judge Moore, fine. Call him an obstructionist bonehead. Call him a fundamental idiot. Call *him* something insulting. One man.
    You took a word associated with a group of people, males from the South (which is all “Dukes of Hazzard” territory, of course), and decided to use it to insult one person. You projected his very individual idiocy on an entire group.
    Small surprise that other males from the South have called you on it. It’s not that it’s “unPC.” It’s that the method in which you used it comes across as insulting to a much larger group than the One Guy you were aiming at.
    Stereotypes can be that way. Surely you’ve been subjected to them by others?

  13. ken Avatar
    ken

    Rube,
    I was a white southern male myself until I moved up here and I don’t think southerner are the scum of the earth. That said, “Cracker-ass-cracker” is a reference to a term used freely by Chris Rock in comedy sketches and you can tell when he uses it and by the way he uses it, it’s as much a parody on somewhat militant black people (and others) who paint all white people with a broad stroke. And, no, personally, I don’t have a problem with that. Especially when it’s used as a joke. I don’t have a problem with the word cracker either, because that has come to be understood as a mindset (backwards, racist, etc). It’s different from Bubba on all sorts of levels that I don’t want to get into here…
    The first and foremost being that Bubba is an actual name for a lot of actual, real people.

  14. rlbb Avatar
    rlbb

    Next you’ll be saying Bill Clinton wasn’t a Bubba!

  15. Charlie Avatar
    Charlie

    Jeff, in among all the crap you’re getting about calling the guy “Bubba”, I wanted to make it clear that at least one of your readers actually got your original point. I’m one of those very odd ducks: a Buddhist Republican. I really really get pissed off with these guys who assume (yes, I’m talking to you, Eric) that the only religious are Christians and Jews; that freedom of religion doesn’t mean freedom from having someone else’s religion stuffed down your throat; and who don’t remember that the whole set of circumlocutions like “Divine Providence” and “Nature’s God” used in the Declaration of Independence etc was there to be inclusive not just of Christians, but also Jews, Deists, and odd groups like Quakers and Unitarians who were part of the Colonial world and who were not believers in God the Father, Son, and Spirit.
    So I agree — unless you’re willing to let someone put up a statue of Mithras’ Bull, keep the Ten Commandments out.

  16. Mike Avatar
    Mike

    Big Deal! The guy has the 10 Commandments in his office? What the fuck is the big freeking deal? Regardless of the guy’s personality or not.
    I got a bigger problem that Ibrahim Hooper a representative of the Wahabis, Hamas and Al Queda is running around my fing Capitol meeting with Congressmen and VIP’s all the time! THAT I GOT A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM WITH!
    Wupteeeeeeeeee Doo the 10 Commandments is posted. Oh, no its Taleban tomorrow and we better change our currency IMMEDITATELY before Falwell becomes President!
    Gimmmmmmmmmmme a freeking break already! Its enough with the bullshit Christian bashing.
    And by the way ever thought of the fact that the biggest protection we have against Fundamental Islam is the fact that this is STILL a Judeo/Christian based country, LIKE IT OR NOT!
    And I’m lucky if I’m in Shul 3 times a year.
    So save the idea that I’m a religious fanatic, OK!
    Mike

  17. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    Hey Charlie!
    I’m sorry you’re pissed off but I missed the part where I said that Christians and Jews were the only “religious” (sic) in the country. The point I was making was that the Ten Commandments being displayed is not an endorsement of a particular “religion” in the way that word was understood by the Founding Fathers, in that it is a document that would have been accepted by all the different groups you list as being part of the “colonial world”. The fact that the country now includes many Buddhists, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, etc. as well as atheists probably would have been very surprising to the Founding Fathers. Thankfully, the constituion they left us has us well set up for this increidble religious diversity. Everyone is free to believe or not believe as they choose. Nowhere does it say, however, that no one shall ever have their sensibilities offended, or see something that comes from a religious tradition other than their own posted in a public place.
    What constitutes having a religion “shoved down your throat” is ultimately a subjective matter in the same way that Christian Conservative parents’ saying that immorality is shoved down their throats via popular culture is a subjective matter. If you really feel that seeing a copy of the Ten Commandments constitutes shoving something (what exactly i’m not sure. Catholicism? Judaism? Protestantism?) down your throat then it must be very hard for you to live in this world.
    You also seem to have a flawed understanding of Christianity. The doctrine of the Trinity to which you seem to be referring (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) was develped by the Roman Catholic Church well after the time of the New Testament and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Ten Commandments, which come from thousands of years before. Many who believe in the Ten Commandments (notably, Jews) don’t believe in the Trinity.
    For the record, I wouldn’t have a problem with Mithras’ bull in a public place either.

  18. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    Ah, the “slippery slope” school or argumentation, isn’t that the same one that Stanley Kurtz, Marie Gallagher et al use to say that gay marriage will lead to polygamy, bestiality, incest etc.?
    I really don’t understand how displaying the ten commandments constitute someone saying what is and what isn’t “OK religion” but again I don’t think its a big deal if we get them out of their either. Its just amazing how hair-triggered some people’s sensitivies can be, kind of like people who get offended by Howard Stern I guess. If we maintain this sort of hyper-vigilance we will eventually have a purely secular paradise, in which we will have no displays of religion outside the home or Church whatsoever. There is a lot of work to do however. I suggest you start with the following issues: 1) Getting all that irksome God stuff out of all the money, the pledge of allegiance, the Declaration of Independence etc. 2) Legally prohibiting the Reverend Al Sharpton from running for president. 3) Renounce all contact with Israel as it was founded to some extent on theological foundations and start courting only secularist paradises like North Korea as allies 4) Take all reference to religion out of any history textbook used in a public school. Granted, its probably the single most important force in human history, but we wouldn’t want the atheist kids to get offended. Oh, wait a minute, we’re already doing this.
    The above is just a beginning but it’ll sure keep us off that slippery slope. God knows we’re only about six weeks from turning into Iran now so we better get cracking.
    Jeff Jarvis logic:
    Those hyper concerned about privacy and civil liberties are tin foil hat wearing nitwits. Those hyper concerned about separation of Church and state are right thinking liberals.

  19. Rube Avatar
    Rube

    ken
    I’m certainly not an overly-sensitive, humorless goober about racial or cultural stereotypes. That being said, it’s all about context. I just think it’s silly to reduce this whole thing down to it being about Bible-belt whitey, which is exactly what Jeff is doing.
    I sometimes forget that Mr. Jarvis is a northeast liberal, since most of his stuff is pretty logical and sensible. I’ll have to keep that mind when reading his stuff, I guess.
    Remember, kids: Northeast Yankees sit upon high and watch over us. We peons out here in flyover land should thank the (insert secular reference) that we have such concerned, thoughtful people up there to think for us.

  20. John Anderson Avatar
    John Anderson

    “God is not a religion.” Tell that to a polytheist or atheist.
    Someone pointed out that the anti-establishment clause is with respect to the Federal government: now, that is a good point, and I don’t have the individual State Constitutions on hand (they’re on the Web someplace, but I am ridiculously bad at using the search engines), does the Alabama Constitution say anything?
    In re “Bubba”, this is not just a USouthron thang, so maybe “Idi” would serve in [dis]honor of the late Amin and also shorthand for Idiot?

  21. CBK Avatar
    CBK

    The preamble to the Alabama Constitution reads:
    (BTW this is also on the monument in question)
    We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama:
    Section 3, AL Constitution:
    Religious freedom.
    That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles.
    The monument also bears this phrase from the First Amendment of the US Constitution:
    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
    I’ve tried to search for what else was on the monument but there is so much news about it the search is difficult. These items I saw on video of the momunent. The monument also bears the motto “In God we Trust” in the context of some other text. I couldn’t read the other text.
    I further searched for pictures but they are all too small to decipher all the text and do not show all the sides of the monument.
    The line about “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” from the Declaration of Indepedence is juxtaposed the AL Constitution of the front surface. The motto “In God we Trust” is on the right side along with some other text.
    The other side has Section 3 of the AL constitution on it.
    Basically, all surfaces (well I don’t know about the back) of this monument display historical text which refers to God, Divine Providence and freedom of religous expression.
    BTW…Scrappleface has a spoof on the issue and a huge discussion at his site.
    http://www.scrappleface.com
    CBK

  22. CBK Avatar
    CBK

    I was going to resist this, but I can’t any longer.
    My father-in-law is a true southern Bubba. It has been his affectionate nickname since childhood. His son bears the nickname Buck. I can’t explain it. It just is.
    I’m not offended. But I just thought you ought to know, Jeff, that there are people who use that name as a nickname and it doesn’t necessarily apply to rednecks only. My Bubba is a horticulturist. A damned good one too.
    CBK

  23. Dean Esmay Avatar
    Dean Esmay

    I, on the other hand, am on the other side of this, even though I’m not at all religious.
    I find our modern-day fear of “religion and government” rather paranoid and even a little bigoted.
    When people fought against slavery using religious arguments, this was good. When people fought segregation using religious arguments, this was good. When they supported women’s rights, using religious arguments, were they Ayatollahs?
    But now we are afraid of religion in government, because we disagree with SOME religious people? Gee. Isn’t that really just another way of saying that religion is okay in politics unless I disagree?
    Was ArchBishop Desmond Tutu wrong to speak out against Apartheid in South Africa, do you think? Wasn’t that a very dangerous mixing of Church and State that could have destroyed democracy?
    —
    Look: In a free democratic society, people can and should feel free to allow their religious views to frame part of their political arguments. Similarly, things like the 10 commandments have historical value, and I have no fear of their presence in government institutions even though I am not religious.
    I really am rather bemused by the entire fear of the religious in this country, I really am. It seems to have little historical basis, something very new to the last generation or so, and based on a lot of misinformation about religion’s role in our politics over the last couple of centuries.

  24. Dave Gudeman Avatar
    Dave Gudeman

    Re your quote:
    “The woman who brought the case against “Judge” Moore — and the decidely unChristian behavior of alleged Christians against her. God bless her; she’s the one defending both God and the Constitution.”
    Just so we’re clear, the only one who alleging these people are Christians is you. I didn’t see anything in the article about someone keying her car and then claiming to be a Christian.
    In fact, that’s a reckless assumption. Southerners have a long history of resentment against Federal interference in their affairs and of hatred for other Southerners that concur in that interference. No one has to be have any particular religious beliefs to resent this new fight against Northern cultural empirialists. In fact I suspect that’s the real issue here and that religion is just the context in which the conflict is taking place.