Party, Iranian style
: The American wife of an Iranian blogging from Tehran tells of attending a wedding party there:
About 2 hours into the party, my friend heard shouts of
67 responses to “Party, Iranian style”
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you know a tyranny when it raids parties for violating dress codes….
shouldn’t the “owners” of the women be able to control what they do in private?
this just doesn’t make sense in the idiotically twisted world view that enforces a medieval dress code in the first place
i just hope that the revolution comes before Iran has to be dealt with…
jeff please tell these people that their lives are at stake if they DON’T off the mullahs. nuclear blackmail is a good way to end up a smoldering ruin… if it gets down to it, Iran may have to cease to exist… so please, kick off the goddamn revolution before the idiotic mullahs do something truly insanely foolish and millions of innocent people have to die -
Elaine Sciolino”s Persian Mirrors is a wonderful book describing modern Iran, and it exposes the curious fault lines among the Persians.
Stories like this are all too common.
What a country! Behind closed doors one can see rather lascivious belly dancing, but outside the women look like Hans Solo’s dancing partner. -
bullshit, remind me of betty …. (never, without my daughter) i think every american woman who marry with an iranian and come to iran is for the sake of making a movie, writing a book or a weblog against iranian, i didnt know these bullshits are still popular …. huh
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It is intersting that this blog does not find anything positive about Iran, and is quick to jump and catch tha bad news no matter if they are made-up news.
Yes, without the current regime, Iran could be much better than it is now. And I hate the current situation in Iran, however, my dis-like of the situation has diffrent reasons than yours have. Mine is clean and is for the sake of real freedom for my country. Yours appears to be for the sake of wehat is good for Israel.
I have no respect for fake care for freedom as you provide. -
To be honest, I’ve heard of hunders of bribe stories, I’ve never heard a wedding story in which people actually get arrested.
Last summer my brother went to Iran to attend a wedding. The party was stopped twice. The first time the “police” were satisfied by bribes. The second time – different guys – they wanted to hear the music and maybe take a few of the tapes. they also took a pot full of the kabab. freakin hilarious to me.
I dont know, you guys like to go on your soapboxes and chew on your lips, but its really really funny if you stop and think about it. The best memories I have from Iran are the times I got arrested. honest to god. -
Faramin,
You are absolutely right.
Nothing constructive about Iran can be found in this blog. -
Jeff,
I’m very disappointed….. whenever I visit this site I told to myself “jeff is a very good man, he fight for our freedom” now I feel so stupid.
I swear to god that this is a fake story, I never heard of arresting people at wedding.
even i dont heard arresting people at other parties in last few year. here is metal party ex-party even gay party …and many that i dont know in english, so why police dont arrest these people first instant of wedding?
yes police take bribe but this is in many countries, like former soviet countries too, but is this part rational “Run! Run!? The women crowded into a bathroom together.” are you try to show iranian savage? if Iranian with their great culture are savages, all people in this world are savages…
anyway, i cant stop you if you want to show a bad face of iranian, but i hope you have a good cause at least…. -
I have said many positive things on the weblog about Iran and Iranians, now that I have met so many online. And I have pointed to much negative news in Iran, considering the news there. I find it amazing that no one complained about being negative about Iran and defended Iran when I pointed to news of journalists being arrested for what they say and students being shot for what they think but this story about the mullahs’ dress code brings out the ire. Strange.
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Perhaps it has something to do with growing recognition of your site as a sort of focal point on Iranian politics and society. It is one of the reasons why I come here daily.
(The remaining reasons have to do with it just being one durned fine site.)
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the criticism was found to have been posted by people paid to do low level flackery for the mullahs. -
Iran is in the news and it is fashionable at the moment to draw a bad picture of Iran. Jeff Jarvis doesn
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Yes, Jeff always has been a slave to fashion! I mean, you need only read his link to the item on how to mutilate one’s toes in order to fit into a pair of Manolos to see that he only cares about being trendy. Why, I’m surprised he isn’t operating out of Williamsburg already!
Pfft. As if. Keep up the fantastic work, Jeff. -
Jef says:
“I find it amazing that no one complained about being negative about Iran and defended Iran when I pointed to news of journalists being arrested for what they say and students being shot for what they think but this story about the mullahs’ dress code brings out the ire. Strange”
Yes, the reason many people do not object to those news is that chances are that those news are somehow true. Nobody is trying to defend the regime in Tehran, but trying to picure Iranians the way the New “Betty Mahmoodi” has done (All women hiding in the same washroom?) and gladly reported by jef is very dishonest journalism on his part. Then again, he has perhaps learned journalism in North America, where honesty in journalism almost does not exist. -
So it’s okay for Iranians to be subjected to despotic power at any point in their daily lives, as long as it makes a good show for webgard’s digital camera.
What does “ugly American” mean to you? -
This story could take place about 15 years ago but from about 6 years ago, Mohammad Khatami, the president, has tried to stop this form of harassment by Islamic guards. So you would never see a wedding party be spoiled by those bearded guys these days.
The weblog you’ve linked to, is just another Betty-style “never, without my daughter” fictional story, I guess. You’d better be somehow skeptic of its stories if you don’t want to be mislead in researching the real Iranian society. -
I find this odd. Let’s say Betty is lying. I have seen enough stories exaggerating things or lying about my country to say this is perfectly possible.
But what’s with the references to “not without my daughter” story. I remember the movie with Sally Field and there are plenty of American women who have husbands who fled to other countries where they have no rights to their children. In one case I recall where a woman fled to Germany and they won’t allow the husband visitation. I saw another story recently about an Egyptian man who fled to Egypt with his son and daughter. There are hundreds of parental kidnappings WITHIN the US. What does that have to do with anything.
Really weird that a long forgotten awful movie (until you reminded us) is such a sore point.
So are all the stories and pictures of the mullahs beating students also untrue? -
As I have said before, I don’t think many people are defending the mullahs, so not many people dispute the existance of abuses by the Mullahs’ regime in Iran. But the way we see it not exactly the way you see it.
The pictures of the Mullahs beating the sudents are might be quite true, but so are the pictures of Iraqis civilians who were killed by your “democratic napalm bombs”, so please do not pretend that you care about people, becuase if you did, you would first stop the crimes your belived mullahs (government) is committing all over the world. Fix things at home first, then we talk. -
Cahetrine,
If in Cuba they arrest journalists, this porve that they attack wedding too? If an american police beat a black guy this prove that american are barbarian?
Jeff,
after years of writing you dont know diffrence between reliable news and unreliable? by the way I didnt have any problem if it was like this “they came and arrest people in wedding” but just re-read your post to know how un-fair it is. -
Just to be clear: Nothing coming out of Iran today can be seen to be reliable. It either comes from government-controlled sources or it comes from people who, for good reason, need to stay anonymous. So everything that is quoted from there comes with that caveat. I don’t say whether anything I read there is true because I can’t know; I quote what I find interesting or notable. But since you ask, I did see at least some credibility in this because I have talked to people who’ve just returned from Iran and reported seeing women afraid to be caught without proper dress; there must be a reason for that. Whether this particular incident happened as described or not, you can judge for yourself.
And again, I find it quite odd that no one leapt to the defense of Iran when students were killed but when this item about dress-code enforcement is quoted, there’s a sudden parade to these comments. I wonder who is behind that.
I also take offense that just because you don’t like one thing I quote, you are ready to condemn and discard me and what I say. That is short-sighted and unbecoming. There are many opinions in the world, many viewpoints, many pieces of information and the wise and mature person can handle that without rash and rude judgment.
I will not assume that the manners of some of the people here speaks for Iranians. -
A few things –
First, you are not being rational as you answered my question with a response of “your country is bad too!” rather than answering my question which is “WHAT’S UP WITH THE REFERENCES TO NOT WITH OUT MY DAUGHTER?”
Secondly,
Napalm was not used in Iraq as the last bit of it was destroyed in 2001 because it was deemed environmentally unsafe. The napalm rumor started when Marines used MK-77 firebombs to take down a few bridges and said “we napalmed” the bridges since napalm was once used to fire bombe (most notably in Vietnam). So show me where anyone other than Iraqi soldiers were killed on that bridge (from the same dispatch quoted over and over everywhere and the marines used the term napalm, they indicated that there were some soldiers on the bridge and that it must have been an awful “way to die.”).
Third – ditto to Jeff
Fourth – you can waste your energy pointing fingers at the “evils” of the U.S. (yawn ) and blame the US for everything, but it’s not a conversation, it’s an excuse to stop conversation. Because I, Jeff or anyone else is an American doesn’t mean I don’t care about Iraq, Iran, or Germany and interested or curious about what transpires there.
Fifth – If you are so freakin’ happy in Iran and so offended by people being interested in you fine. I will shore up my interest, say to hell with you lot and become an isolationist. All I hear from voices around the world is how Americans are not concerned enough. We show concern and we are accused of not being genuine. You can’t have it both ways. -
As for Napalm, here it goes, and there are more if I serach:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/08/1060145870882.html
Yes, it is not called Napalm, but isn’t it? Name chnage might fool you but not me.
I am sorry for not being as civilized as you are. So, you really think what you initiated was a “conversation”?
And may be this is also part of your style for conversation: “..if you are so freakin’ happy in Iran and being so ….”. You have kept ignoring what I’ve said twice in this forum that no body is defending Iran regime here and no body is happy with them. In order to have conversation with a barbarian like me, first you have to take time and read the comments of this barbarian and then try to teach me what democracy is by having a conversation.. .
Beside, who says, not going along with the interst of an American would make me an “isolationsit”. I don’t expect you to undersatnd what I am talking about, after all this is typical American arrogance which is well known to everyone but the Americans.
And, I don’t think you (Americans)are not concerned enough, I think you are concerned enough but as long as your interest is protected, and that is when you don’t care about other lives. Obviously, I am not talking about you as an American, after all you have really no say in the policies of your government, big business makes them for you while you are bussy waching Rambo movies.
Fainally, Please don’t help us to be free. We will be eventually free from the Mullahs’ rgime , but with our own hands and in our own terms not yours. -
You still have not answered my specific question about your reference to the movie, but whatever.
And the SMH article is the same ONE article that has been copied on every left wing site (Indymedia, et al) over and over. No other reputable papers have it and I have yet to be shown “pictures” of those civilians you say are “napalmed.”
The only interest I REALLY have in your country is that it doesn’t bug mine. Other than that, they are humanitarian.
You are so insulting, and deluded (who called you a barbarian exactly?), I won’t bother with you again. -
Jeff, I think the reason why Iranians are taking more offense to this comment is because they feel that it deals with a cultural issue rather than a purely political one. As such, many of them feel that it shines an unfavorable light on the Iranian people as well as the Iranian government, never mind that such activities would never take place were Iran a real democracy.
I’ve noticed this phenomenon with Indians as well. Talk to them about the corruption of Indian politicians or the widespread poverty within the country, and they generally won’t take offense, and are glad to debate the issue. But if you talk to them about something like the spread of religious fanaticism, they start to get defensive. Clearly, you viewed this entry as a condemnation of the mullahs rather than the average Iranian, and so did, I suspect, its author; but others saw it in a different light.
By the way, whoever said that View from Iran has nothing good to say about the country really ought to read more closely. There are plenty of positive comments made said about the Iranian people, Iranian food, and Iranian music, among a few other things. The fact that the author reports the bad along with the good, and has little love lost for the government, doesn’t change this fact. -
Reading these comments, I am not sure where they are coming from. This site has become a well-known location for Iranian dissident thinking. It would not be surprising that their adversaries were listening in and trying to subvert the conversation.
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More on Napalm? Here it goes:
U.S. Admits Using Napalm Bombs In Iraq: Report
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-08/10/article10.shtml
Oh, I am sorry it is not from “National Review” come on, deny it. -
“Obviously, I am not talking about you as an American, after all you have really no say in the policies of your government, big business makes them for you while you are bussy waching Rambo movies.”
ROFL!
Even if it were true, I’d take Big Business over Big Religion every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
P.s. What’s a “Rambo”? -
Harry,
To me, both big business and big Religion are worthless, and that is a big difference between you and me.
BTW, May be you have nothing to do, that’s why you take the big business so many times a week, (you better do something real for living) and again, may be you are part of the big business that is why you are so passinate about it. -
“[M]ay be you are part of the big business that is why you are so passinate about it.”
Yep. I know the secret handshake and everything. I’d like to tell you more about the Big Business, but I’ve been sworn to secrecy by the Cabal.
You still haven’t explained what a “Rambo” is… -
Faramin, why don’t you stop the name calling and describe some of the “good things” about Iran that you think are missing from this blog?
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Just a quick note to Catherine:
I could not go sleep before admitting this:
With keeping all the possible differences between your point of view and mine, I think my sarcasim that perhaps created the impression that you consider Iranians as barbarians was not fair and I sincerely apologize for that. -
Nobody here considers Iranians barbarians, not even us “Rambo” watching tools of the Big Business.
Perhaps you should trade that chip on your shoulder in for a lighter one? -
(I hope Catherine will read this!)
Eric has made some good points. The reason why we’re getting offensive here is that the story is culturally devastating for Iranians. I remember I once read a quote from one of the 1979’s hostages in this weblog which correctly called Iranians “a very nationalistic, culture-proud people”. Thus, any story that tarnishes our culture will offend us specially when there are some evidence of the story being totally false or partially true.
This story kind of reminded me of some of those fictional scenes in Betty’s story that turned out to be a nightmare for many Iraniansc because it was questioning the Iranian culture.
Any nation makes mistake and no culture is perfect. But the question is: do different nations and cultures have the right to look down on each other? No.
If the US is the only superpower in the world, it doesn’t mean Iran is just “a little country in the middle of nowhere” as it was stereotyped by the British at some points. Long before America existed, Iran had a civilization, one of its leaders, Cyrus the great, was the first to write a declaration on human rights and its empire was “a thoroughly cosmopolitan state which united elements of all major civilizations of its time” as Atlas of World History claims.
We should get to know each other better and then practice respect.
And to Jeff,
The Iranian guys who are beating you here are the same as those who were clapping for you when you were blaming mullahs. This post’s subject is more culture than poitics, and don’t expect anyone encourage you when you target his culture. -
Mohammad — good points. Iran is certainly one of a short handful of places that can claim to be the cradle of civilization. The sooner the theocratic government is replaced with a democracy, and Iran is no longer a client of any external power, the better. I just don’t see any criticism of Iranian *culture* here — only the wretched government.
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jeff,
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Catherine says:
“First, you are not being rational as you answered my question with a response of *your country is bad too!*”
See how that offended you? why not us?
Is this acceptable in a conversation accusing one-side (without an evidence) to working for mullah’s government or being anti-american?
I can say it too, you are either an arab (who hate persian culture) or you are so anti-Iranian.
I dont see any differnce between you and muslim hard-liners, both of you make a conversation to prove that your point of view is the correct one, it seems that you can’t accept humble opinion of others no matter how rational it is.
(I’m not only with Catherine… all who defend Jeff blindly) -
Just an example came to my mind, compare these two stories:(I personaly have many respect for Lynch)
“Jessica Lynch, fought back Iraqis until her last bullet.”
“The draft report concluded the soldiers “fought the best they could until there was no longer a means to resist.”
but this:
“The shouts were more panicked this time: -
Sasaan – I was not offended by the comment. There must be a language problem here. I was saying that he avoided my question by childishly pointing fingers. I was not offended, he wasn’t making sense. In fact, in my original post I said I understood.
Then you start name calling and making wild accusations and respect is lost. -
Thanks Sasaan,
Your points were the ones I had in my mind too, but you said it perfectly. Thanks
Hell-Dweller,
Exactly this is the reason I cannot believe thre are ggo intentions here in this blog when the issues of Iran are discussed by the host.
Yes, here, bad things are only bad if they are done by certaine groups and governemtns, but other governments such as Israel’s are free to do whatever the hell they want, and the journalism here closes its eyes to them or very gentely criticizes them (to a very limited point). -
Sorry Catherine if I wasnt respectful to you, there isnt anything between us, you didnt write that article and you didnt post it here :)
I was just angry and was trying to show how un-fair is these kind of articles.
As I noticed you are against such anti-cultural things too.
and for you question: to most Iranian that false book “not without my daughter” was equal to nuke one of our city (or worse), it dont mean that we hate anyone, we are just more sensetive and careful for such things. (that’s the reason to refernce to that movie) -
Catherine,
I really don’t see any question made. If the question is why we are referring to that movie, it is because of the groosly inflated story from the American woman who made up the story in this particular post. These are not attacks on the regime of Iran. These are attacks to people of Iran. As sasaan has mentioned in the examples he has, the people in that so-called party are shown as selfish people who would only care about themselves. Statistacally, these people can represnet a common culture in Iran, so discribing them the way it was described, is describing people of Iran as such and that is offensive.
Stories like this are common in the west, and they just show that there is no touch of ethics in reporting issues to North Americans.
Now, I hope you can appreciate why I see similarities between “Betty Mahmoodi” and this woman. -
All:
I now understand better the hot button this pushed — particularly after the insult of the movie (which I never saw). It was never my intention to insult Iranian culture. A careful reader of my site will see that I have revelled in my new contacts with Iranians online.
And as I said above, I don’t know whether anything I post from Iran is true; I have no way of confirming it. I posted this without much comment. I assume that people will come in an tell us all (nicely) what is credible and what is not. I know the site from which it came; it’s a site that has a respectful and affectionate attitude toward Iran.
But having said all that, I still say that there is a comment here related to the government and not the culture: This is a government that has laws that allow it to arrest people — no, in fact, just women — for what they wear or what they choose not to wear. The laws give police that power. To my eyes — yes, my Western, American, democratized eyes — that is a problem and it is a problem with a theocratic system. And that is an issue today in relation to not only Iran but also the future government of Iraq and the governments across the region. So my comment did relate to the government, not to the culture.
As to a few other comments above: I’m not pushing for outsiders to impose regime change on Iran; I’ve said that here. America has too troubled a history in Iran and should not get directly involved. But that doesn’t mean that I cannot hope that the people of Iran are freed from this yoke; it does not mean that I cannot express support for them; it does not mean that I cannot have my opinion. Here, I can.
As the the comment about Israel: Well, that brings it full circle, doesn’t it? This is not a zero-sum game, Iran or Israel, now is it? Just because I dare criticize something that happens in Iran I’m a Zionist conspirator, eh? Poppycock. Yes, I support Israel’s right to exist in peace, just as I support the right of the people of Iran to live in freedom; they are hardly mutually exclusive! And, by the way, I criticized Israel just last week. So read before you speak.
Now as to the tone of this whole conversation in these comments on this post: I am relieved to see that things have settled down to a civilized and more respectful tone. I only with they had started that way. And there is no reason they should not start that way. Rather coming to my site — which is like coming into my home — and beginning with an attack, how much better would it have been if you came first and explained things the way you did in the later comments? We all would have been better off. I did not attack you. You do not need to attack me. In this amazing world of weblogs, we can speak to each other, get to know each other, learn from each other, respect each other. That is the best things I have found from my interaction with Iranian webloggers and I don’t want to see that spoiled by rash statements.
So shall we all agree that we’ve learned a few things from each other and we look forward to seeing each other in the neighborhood?
best regards,
jeff -
Jeff,
i just wanted to thank you for your latest comment. However, there are issues in the comment that need to be addressed. I am hoping at later time I write something with that regard.
Just in short, I, as an iranian, appreciate any support (without intervention) that I can get from non-Iranian people (and not necessarily the governments) in my strugle to rid my country from the brutal regime it has.
Having said that, and in a “not directly related” note to this discussion, I believe this strugle should be extended to the point that I do not forget my duties as a citizen of the world, to support other people who are also oppressed, such as Palestinians under oppression of the Israeli regime. This might sound very bad to many, but not to me as I see the Occupation anywhere and anyhow, as a criminal act. This can also include the occupation of Iraq by US/British forces. -
Yeah, yeah, more diatribe about “oppression” of Pals. Hey, that was 1967, isn’t it time to move on? Sucks when you attack another country and they beat you hands-down and take territory from you, doesn’t it? Maybe you should goggle for “right of conquest”. Although it’s ironic that in this case the attacker (what was it, 6 Arab states?) was the one who lost, and who therefore lost territory. Anyway, if Israel was truly as bad as you say, there wouldn’t be any Palestian “occupation”—-because there wouldn’t be any Palestinians.
You guys still don’t get America. Geesh, the central thing to understand about America is written all over, in weblogs, books, and elsewhere. WE DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU GUYS!!! WE DON’T WANT TO “OCCUPY” ANYBODY. WE JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE. What we most want is for people to not try to attack or kill Americans.
That’s the key to getting along with America. Leave us the f*ck alone. Don’t bomb our embassies, don’t bomb our naval ships, don’t fly planes into our buildings. OBL got our attention on 9/11.
“The last thing you want is our complete undivided attention.”
The Arab world got our complete undivided attention on Sept 11, and we are gonna do whatever it takes to make sure than nobody nowhere will EVER think of doing anything like that ever again.
We have now taken notice of every government or group that makes speeches supporting attacking America and/or killing Americans. Each and every one of those groups will have our complete attention unless and until they either change their tune or we have (reluctantly) taken care of them. -
Take it easy fred,
…And we were just talking about how we should have a civil discussions.
You know better that your voice Fred, is not voice of the American people but the voice of Ariel Sharon.
I am not an Arab, And I am not a religious person either, but I know one thing: Those poor Palestinian children need to be protected from people with your attitude, And I will do my best to be their voice. Why? because when at stake is the protection of humanity, religion and nationalism should take the back seat. And the Palestinians are the people who need help today.
If you want, continue labelling your opponents as terrorists, I couldn’t care less. I don’t need anything to fight you, my PC along with my weak english ability is enough for me.
The events of last few months has shown who is bombing who and who is the real terrorist. -
Catherine,
This was your response to the article I linked to here, regarding US using Napalm in Iraq:
“And the SMH article is the same ONE article that has been copied on every left wing site (Indymedia, et al) over and over. No other reputable papers have it and I have yet to be shown “pictures” of those civilians you say are “napalmed.”
Here is another one, you may also wish to discredit this:
US admits it used napalm bombs in Iraq:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=432201
I leave it to your judgment. -
Jeff,
Thanks for your clarification. I always appreciated your cares and support for freedom in Iran, here and other places, and I have the same feeling as you have for Israel. I hope you dont think that we attacked you, it was just like a shock to us. I hope you be more sensitive about such thing. Thanks again. -
Faramin – it’s the same quote, same recycled story. The same quotes with the same Marines referring to MK-77 as “napalm.” It’s another copy of the same exact story. The Independant/Guardian/SMH/Observer are far-left biased. They hate America first and verify later. As I said way above, where was it used on civilians?
You think Betty portrays Iran incorrectly? I am telling you, those papers are Betty to me. Too many of their stories portray a place I don’t recognize. After I read a story making fun of September 11 (written like a comedy top 10 list), I would never take anything they write seriously.
And no, I don’t need the National Review, I just want a story that verifies not repeats. The reason the story died is that there was no story or the BBC and Dan Rather here in the US would be all over this like a rash.
Sorry. Nothing personal. -
Catherine,
Using Napalm is not banned only on civilians. There is no need to ban the usage of any weapon on civilians any way because officially, they (all weapons) are not supposed to be used against civilians.
Napalm has been banned from using in any conflict; civilian and non-civilian. -
Faramin:
I think the point that you and Catherine seem to be at cross-purposes about is the following: you say napalm has been banned from use in any conflict.
WE AGREE.
The point she was making (and which explains why this never became a ‘story’) is that what those soldiers were using WAS NOT NAPALM. Perhaps there might actually be a language issue here (seriously): those soldiers called what was dropped on that bridge “napalm” even though it wasn’t. They called it that because it’s a well-known cultural referent here in America that seemed to be appropriate: whenever a reasonably educated American (or ESPECIALLY someone with military service) sees flames coming from on high, they’re gonna think “Napalm” because that term was drummed into the collective American consciousness during the Vietnam war.
That doesn’t mean that what we used was ACTUALLY napalm. It wasn’t at all. They just called it that because that slang is quicker and more useful at conveying general meaning than the term “Fuel-Air Explosive.” A similar example would be to say “we really nuked that enemy encampment.” Well obvious we didn’t NUKE it, as in drop a nuclear weapon – we just pounded it hard. The term “nuke,” just like the term “napalm,” has taken on a conventional meaning outside of its original one, and THAT was the sense these soldiers were using it in.
I normally wouldn’t be so drawn-out in making this point, but it occurred to me with your last post that there may have been a genuine misunderstanding in meaning and usage. Just to reiterate: when a soldier says “we napalmed those guys” these days, he could have meant any number of possible things EXCEPT that the actual chemical compound Napalm was used. Since, as you pointed out, that’s been banned.
Sorry to ramble, but maybe this clarifies a little? -
I wrote the story about the wedding. It is true. Sorry folks. I talked to about 20 people (all Iranian) who were there. I should add some new facts to the story. It turns out that there was a funeral for a martyr a few gardens away. Some bigwigs were there, and they called the religious police. As many folks pointed out, this is not a common occurence. I am just telling stories on my blog, not trying to judge or make generalizations. (Although sometimes I do.)
One more thing: when I talked to my husband’s brother, he said that the people throwing the party planned it on a very stupid day: the evening before a mourning day for Fatimeh. That made me realize that in fact, the story illustrates something positive about Iran: that people have become so relaxed that they accidentally plan a wedding party on the eve of a mourning day. -
Jeff B – Thanks. I thought last night about explaining the Vietnam slang, but actually, your using the term “nuked” is even better. I think language and this 1 dimensional medium are a problem.
Faramin, you said “but so are the pictures of Iraqis civilians who were killed by your ‘democratic napalm bombs’, ” is what I was referring to. -
T,
Now I believe your story and I wouldn -
About Isreal
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T,
Your courage to acknowledge that you should add some facts to the story is valuable. -
Jeff B.,
Thank you for writing about this. Please let me repeat parts of the report/article here that would indicate that US in fact did use napalm (many be a bit moddified version of it, so a different name could ba used):
“The Pentagon denied using napalm at the time, but Marine pilots and their commanders have confirmed that they used an upgraded version of the weapon against dug-in positions. They said napalm, which has a distinctive smell, was used because of its psychological effect on an enemy”. (see, they are specifically talking about Napalm, and it doesn’t appear to be just an expression or slang – Faramin)
“A 1980 UN convention banned the use against civilian targets of napalm, a terrifying mixture of jet fuel and polystyrene that sticks to skin as it burns. The US, which did not sign the treaty, is one of the few countries that makes use of the weapon. It was employed notoriously against both civilian and military targets in the Vietnam war.” (The question is why US didnot sign that convention, as it hasn’t signed the convention banning the usage of Land Mines – Faramin)
“We napalmed both those [bridge] approaches,” said Colonel James Alles, commander of Marine Air Group 11.” (This is not just from an ordinary Marine, he is a Colonel – Faramin)
“But John Pike, director of the military studies group GlobalSecurity.Org, said: “You can call it something other than napalm but it is still napalm. It has been reformulated in the sense that they now use a different petroleum distillate, but that is it. ” (This is also an interesting point, isn’t it? – Faramin)
“In an interview with the San Diego Union-Tribune, Marine Corps Maj-Gen Jim Amos confirmed that napalm was used on several occasions in the war.” (I can reasonably believe that in an official interview, a Maj-General would talk about specific things and not just the slangs – Faramin)
Catherine ,
Yes, you are right. You were referring to that part of your comment.
T,
Thank you for entering into this discussion. Your input would be crutial here. However, perhaps un-intentionally, you have brought up some parts of what really happened, by not mentioning (or not knowing other facts of this whole thing). Without justifying the occurance of such harrasment on peoples’ freedom, the fact that there was such funeral being held a few blocks away, has had a major factor on this whole issue. I beleive, reporting only partial facts sometimes can have very devastating effects on the quality of the report (and I am not accusing you of deliberately ommitting other facts here, but parhaps only a bit more care in reporting can make things much more realistic. -
Faramin,
1. Regarding the “napalm” question, so what?
There are many bad ways of dying. Someone can die just as awfully from a Marine private using his bayonet as he can from any Marine captain launching any number of weapons from and F/A-18. These fuel based weapons (napalm or otherwise) were used against military targets, not civilians.
So what?
2. You asserted that our “mullahs” (government) had committed crimes and implied that America is the “real” source of terrorism.
These assertions fall in line with other accusations of how America has created hardship for people all over the world. I hear/read such accusations from time to time, but I never hear any actual examples of American actions that made things worse.
I genuinely want to know what we have done to harm other nations. I can think of quite a few things that were done during the Cold War (including our support of the Shah) that were not the brightest ideas. But I’d really like to know what current activities people of the world believe the US is undertaking to undermine global prosperity.
Perhaps Jeff would be willing to start a thread for this discussion, as it really is separate from the issue that brought us here.
3. While Fred may have been a bit blunt, the essence of his message is quite correct. We don’t want to occupy anybody. Occupying a country requires complete domination of the local population. We wouldn’t accept such treatment of our nation, nor would we want to impose it on others. Just as with post WWII Japan and Germany, we will help the Iraqis revive a civil society and then we will get the heck out of the way.
IMO, we stand in the midst of a culture war. A war that has been going on for millennia. A war between enlightenment, tolerance, and freedom and the various forces of oppression, socialist and theocratic, that view the general population as something to be owned, used, abuse, and discarded at the whim of those in power.
Prior to the 1200-1400s (BCE), the Arab nations were the home of relative tolerance and unrestricted scientific inquiry and the “west” was the home of barbarians that dominated through violence rather than persuasion. (including a great many “Christian” vs. “Christian” european wars.) Since that time, science, reason, and tolerance have been effectively driven out of the Arab nations by theocrats that would prefer to force teenage girls die in a burning school building rather than permit them to be seen on the street without being covered from head to toe.
I have met a small number of people from the Arab (generic) portion of the world over the years. Mostly living in America. A few while overseas. My general impression (particularly of the Iranians) was that they were all decent, hard working people that wanted to live respectable lives. I fondly recall watching on TV as Iraqis living in America held an impromptu parade down the streets of Dearborn, Michigan with the flags of America, Iraq, and my beloved Marine Corps leading the way. We all just a bit different but generally have the same basic objectives in life, again IMO. That includes the desire to be free from government enforced theology.
America is not perfect. Our imperfections make me as uncomfortable as Iran’s make you. The primary difference is that our imperfections generally do not lend themselves towards tyranny and oppression. -
Dann – I just have to beat them to the punch – Iranians aren’t Arab. *slap*! How DARE you! (kidding).
-
Faramin:
You still haven’t shown me that the U.S. “napalmed” civilians.
And here is the real article (see how the SMH distorts things) from the San Diego Union Tribune which portrays things slightly differently and says what Jeff B said:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20030805-9999_1n5bomb.html
He added, “many folks (out of habit) refer to the Mark 77 as ‘napalm’ because its effect
upon the target is remarkably similar.”
“This additive has significantly less of an
impact on the environment,” wrote Marine spokesman Col. Michael Daily.
Military experts say incendiary bombs can be an effective weapon in certain situations.
Firebombs are useful against dug-in troops and light vehicles, said GlobalSecurity’s
Pike.
“I used it routinely in Vietnam,” said retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Trainor, now a
prominent defense analyst. “I have no moral compunction against using it. It’s just another weapon.” And, the distinctive fireball and smell have a psychological impact on troops, experts
said.
He added, “many folks (out of habit) refer to the Mark 77 as ‘napalm’ because its effect upon the target is remarkably simliar.”
I also agree with Dann a bomb is a bomb.
Last, I don’t know why we didn’t sign that UN Treaty, but the treaty says civilian targets. It doesn’t say anything about military ones.
Got to go. -
Catherine –
And a Californian isn’t a Michigander, but we are both American. I don’t know of a better way to describe the socio/political/economic block that begins in north western Africa and extends eastward to Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I just hope that slip doesn’t get in the way of what I was trying to convey.
Thanks for kidding.
(grin) -
Catherine and Dann,
Yes, Iranians are not Arab, but I don’t take it as an insult as I see all members of humanity the same, some more caring and some less, some more arrogant some less and…., so you canb dare to call me with any race you would like, not to worry, It won’t hurt my feeling.
Bomb is a bomb? This is the way you see suffering of other people? I don’t know if you have pinched yourself recently. If not, please do, it hurts.
Bomb is a bomb? So it was alright when Saddam wqas using his Chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers and that was when he was body with the leaders of your country such as Mr. Rumsfled who was a key ossicial in then administration.
It you want to kill me, my last request is to kill me right away and not after impossing torture on me. Well, you can say, what is the difference or “SO WHAT?”. The person is going to be killed any way, so let him suffer before being killed.
Talking about the treatines can only make the point stronger, but in fact treaties should not be the only determining factors when human life is at stake.
catrherine, it is interesting that when there is an article that might confirm your point of view, that article is called “Real Article”, as you called it, but other are just from biased left wing papers. However, I will use the same qoute you used: “He added, “many folks (out of habit) refer to the Mark 77 as ‘napalm’ because its effect upon the target is remarkably similar.”
“remarkably similar”. Here is the point exactly. In this case, it is reasnable to assume “remarkably silmilar” would have remarkbly similar effect also. So, call it whatever. It is not the name that kills after making people suffer, it is the effect of it.
And another one:” “I used it routinely in Vietnam,” said retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Trainor, now a prominent defense analyst.” This is good reason that this heartless idiot shouldf be put on trial for crime against humanity. You might not see it that way; he is an American General, but to me people like this man are not more than pieces of garbage, and it does bnot matter a bit if they are Iranian, American or Arab. How could a decent person talk with such a pride about his criminal past?
And one more:
“”This additive has significantly less of an
impact on the environment,” wrote Marine spokesman Col. Michael Daily.”. Oh, how nice this sensitive spokeman is!, He worries about the environment, and not a bit about the human bsings. Well, that is intersting that the US guiltiest pollutant of the environment and is not even part of Kyoto treaty that is all about environment, why should it be?
Dann,
And you say: “America is not perfect. Our imperfections make me as uncomfortable as Iran’s make you. The primary difference is that our imperfections generally do not lend themselves towards tyranny and oppression.”
America is not anywhere near perfect. Yes, I am unconfortable about Iran and its criminal regime, but I know that I don’t have democracy. You don’t, You really believe you do have it. While it is a fact that the policies of your country are determined by the big business and not the by the people as it appears: Here is something from Al Gore in his recent speech:
“…That’s what happened, for example, when Vice President Cheney invited all of those oil and gas industry executives to meet in secret sessions with him and his staff to put their wish lists into the administration’s legislative package in early 2001….
….That group wanted to get rid of the Kyoto Treaty on Global Warming, of course, and the Administration pulled out of it first thing. The list of people who helped write our nation’s new environmental and energy policies is still secret.. ” Yes those people sitting with Mr. Cheney determine the policies of your country and not you. Nothing personal, but you are just left with the illusion of having democracy.
I know the defficiencies that I am facing, but you as an American do not see a major problem, so obviously you don’t see any necessity to act. That is where I see myself one step ahead of you; I realize I am facing a huge problem, you don’t.
Let me difinish byu saying that, As an Iranian who hates the government controlling his country, and who has experienced the 8 year devastating war that was imposed to us by US-backed Saddam’s regime, I hold the US responsible for the current sutaution in my country, Why? because the war that was imposed to us by Saddam when backed by the US, gave that criminal regime of Tehran to crack down on all democratic achievments of the people of Iran in first year after the revolution. That war gave them the opportunity to crack down in the name of war time measures, that war helped them to stabilize themselves.
When I talk to many people, they tell me that I must be happy with what happened to Saddam and Iraqis after what they did to us, my answer as a human is no, It wasn’t Iraqi people who did this to us, it was saddam and his superpower backers.
Please don’t take any of my comments personal as it is not my intention. -
I still hold out hope that the reason Bush lied was to set us up to be in a position to liberate Iran. This time we wouldnt even have to go in, just threaten to at the right moment…..
C’mon Bush! If liberating the Iraqi people is reason enough, why doesnt that apply to Iran?
– We could anounce that we will invade unless the Mullah’s cede power to Katami! -
Catherine says:
“Last, I don’t know why we didn’t sign that UN Treaty,”
But I know. ;)
and to Dann (or former Fred) :
Yes, you can also call us chinese because Iran and China are both in Asia. Feel free to find other alternatives.
As I dont see any difference between Indian-American and White-American, because both of them are living in amerca, but I have more respect for indian one, because if they was savage before, they are now civilized, but if you were civilized before, now you are savage.
I’m sorry to waste my time with a low-life person like you (that I even doubt if you are really american or not) -
BTW, If you think a bomb is only a bomb, this is what Bin Laden was trying to say.
A new civilized-militant (former terrorist)
If you think my comments are insulting, just ignore it and read Faramin’s comments, but I doubt if you be able to understand him, because farthest thing that you can see is top of your nose. -
Faramin wrote:
“Then again, he has perhaps learned journalism in North America, where honesty in journalism almost does not exist.”
You crack me up! As we all know, Iran is the cornerstone of honest journalism.
Waahahahahahahaha!!!!
Please step back for a moment and consider Jeff’s perspective. To him it may have seemed funny in a peculiar sort of way. How is he suposed to know whether or not it is completely accurate? To him it was so strikingly different than he is used to that he thought it worth noting.
And it is not that far off from the truth. I’ve heard simmilar stories from Iranians.
There are some problems with the story though. Either the wedding was very small or the toilet was very large. In one sentence the writer say’s that the men bring the women their manteaus and scarves, but then in the next sentence they claim someone said it was everyone for themselves.
SOme facts I know because I lived in Teheran myself.
1. Bribery is a fact of life in Iran, no matter who runs the government.
2. Iran has religious police who raid parties on a regular basis.
3. Some of them are in it more for the bribes, while others are religious fanatics who can’t be reasoned with.
Frankly, I can’t understand why so many Iranian readers have taken offense. I’m sure no offense was intended.
Perhaps this is one of those situations where you have to be part of the group to poke fun? -
“Fifth – If you are so freakin’ happy in Iran and so offended by people being interested in you fine. I will shore up my interest, say to hell with you lot and become an isolationist. All I hear from voices around the world is how Americans are not concerned enough. We show concern and we are accused of not being genuine. You can’t have it both ways.”
Saddly, the “to hell with you lot” is the attitude of many Americans, who like me, once lived in Iran. (They are the minority though.)
Thank you for saying these things Catherine. If Iranians want Americans to stop thinking of them as “just a bunch of crazy people”, (Which is really what many are saying, rather than “to hell with you”.) Then perhaps they should stop playing the part so well???
If someone who knew little about Iran or Iranians were to come upon this thread they might get a very unfavorable impression of Iranians because of this nasty little display of temper.
Why must we descend strait to bashing instead of calmly expressing our views? Has anyone thought of simply explaining to Jeff why you find the post objectionable and asking him to remove it?
Often when we let our fears control our actions we end up bringing about the exact thing we are affraid of. In this case the feared thing is making the Iranian culture look bad.
Some have done just that.
I was over at Faramin’s blog earlier and he was complaining about the Anti Defamation League requesting changes in a particular film. He called that censorship, and bashed them for expressing their views, while simultaneously defending the rights of the film makers to produce whatever kind of crap they want. The way I see it they both have the right to express their viewpoints and both can choose to treat each other with respect.
But here he takes the oposite position. Jeff has no right to defend himself and Faramin and other feel they have every right to bash him and make a spectacle of themselves.
Why doesn’t he follow the good example set by the Anti Defamation League?
Evidently he was too busy bashing them to see the shear brilliance of their tactics. -
I find Faramin’s comments are typical of the “we are victims of you bad Americans” line, with the usual references to Israel, to the US being run by big business etc etc.
From London, I know very well which country I would choose if I had to move my family. I would not even dream of moving to Iran under present conditions, whatever its former history.
Faramin’s specific comments about napalm are also a load of nonsense – an “urban myth”. If napalm had been used, all the british press as well as the BBC and other TV channels here would have investigated the story fully, and it would still be headlines. There would have been emergency debates in the House of Commons, and massive protest marches against napalm. Because Britain is a FREE country.
And that is the long and short of it. We are free, and Iranians are sadly not free. I can go to Hyde Park Corner tomorrow, set up a soapbox and make any speech I like, make any criticism I wish about the Government, – as long as I am not racialist. Faramin has no such freedom – he is oppressed. He should attend to the grievous faults in his own country before making INACCURATE criticisms of America, the sort of myths that belong on Indymedia rather than on this site. -
What amazes me as an Iranian is the fact that there are still all these idiotarianism among the Iranian educated that led to this damn revolution in the first place. My God, wasn’t all we had to go through enough for you?
Have you guys learned nothing from these years?
must we read nonsense like ‘democratic nepalms killing innocent iraqis’ still!?
I mean when european idiotarians just throw out such mumbo jumbo, its understandable.The don’t care a bit about human rights or freedom…all they care about is the fashionable trend to hate the US. But from iranians…don’t we know the likes of Saddam and the mullas? Still the same rubbish as 25 years ago?
Poor Iranian ordinary people! If they only knew how much more intelligent they are than their ‘intellectuals’ and how much of their suffering is beacuse of these wise guys!
People,wake up! WAKE UP! -
My american fellow and others, i dunno why people should have no hobbies but hating each other, i wish us teevees could see more silimarity between people than divided them based of race, religons or whatever crap that makes people think they are different, what the hell is the difference between an iranian and an american? god knows, but I tell ya what, there are lots of similarities, both culture have crap people, both have idiotic religon-lovers which think they are rightous people, and both people who think good about each side are suffereing, ruling nuts over the majority of populations, so lets turn off the lights of hates and enjoy our popcorns and then shi**ing in the name of stupids on the powers!
