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It’s all our fault

22 comments on It’s all our fault

It’s all our fault
: Kaveh points us to a provocative Usenet post on Iranians blaming America written by an Iranian expat in America answering an Iranian complaining about us:

Let me ask you something. . .have you bothered looking into the collective soul of Iranians as a people?

Is it the United States who is responsible for Tehran’s 8 million

drivers who can’t seem to extend common courtesy to each other respect

right of way driving in between lanes, or stop at a red lights?…

Is it the United States fault that Iranian women who are beaten by

their husbands and ask for a divorce have to leave their child with

the bastard who was beating them?! And speaking of that do you know

how many Iranian men are abusive to their wives?

Were those Americans who were riding motor cycles in the streets last

month beating students with chains?…

People like you don’t want to address what is wrong with us Iranians

as a nation. You want to say it’s all America’s fault or it’s all the

Arabs fault. . .I have news for you: Iranians have been screwing other

Iranians longer than any other nation has screwed Iran. Five Hundred

years after there were no more Arabs ruling Iran, Iranians were

screwing their fellow countrymen over.

In the last 100 years Iranians screwed Iranians.

I know. . .I know. . .your going to say that the Mossadegh Coup was

all America’s fault. . .well let me tell you, America sent a single

American (Kermit Roosevelt. . .grandson of the former president) to

Iran with a bag filled with 1 million dollars to start that Coup, but

the people who accepted the money, and ran in the streets and beat

Mossadegh’s people were Iranian not Americans. If you came to

downtown New York with a truck full of money (a billion), and asked

people to betray America, you would get your ass beat by the first

poor Puerto Rican from the Bronx, but a million dollars was enough for

Iranians to sell their own country down the drain.

Who is the monster?. . .the American who showed up with a million or

the Iranians who accepted the money and changed sides at the drop of a

hat?!

Iranians are the biggest roadblock to the welfare of fellow Iranians

in Iran. Not Arabs, not Americans not Aliens from Mars!…

22 responses to “It’s all our fault”

  1. Rebecca Avatar
    Rebecca

    Well Said.
    I believe that you could substitute a number of cultures or nation/states for Iran in this letter. I am always amazed by the number of people that blame the US for their own problems. It is an easy cop-out to blame someone else for the problems in your life.

  2. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    By far the most provocative part of the post is this:
    “If you came to
    downtown New York with a truck full of money (a billion), and asked
    people to betray America, you would get your ass beat by the first
    poor Puerto Rican from the Bronx, but a million dollars was enough for
    Iranians to sell their own country down the drain.
    Who is the monster?. . .the American who showed up with a million or
    the Iranians who accepted the money and changed sides at the drop of a
    hat?!”
    I was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss how true this is. The example of the poor Puerto-Rican from the Bronx is probably accurate, and you’d probably most likely get your ass beat if you approached someone from Behsonhurst, Bay Ridge, Staten Island, almost anywhere in Queens, or Chinatown (In my experience Asian Americans are generally extremely patriotic).
    But what if you approached a group of lefty protestors in Union Square, making sure that you emphasized that the money would be used towards toppling the hated government of George W. Bush? What if you a bunch of desperate junkie gutter punks in Tompkins Square?
    What if you tried to work the Wall street sleazebag angle?
    Its all kind of fun, useless speculation, IMO (as they say).

  3. Huh ? Avatar
    Huh ?

    So his point boils down to what? It’s not only the Americans who are screwing the Iranians but also the Iranians themselves? Wow, what a breakthrough, that is true enlightenment.

  4. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    While watching a documentary by an Iranian returning to Iran on PBS, the one thing that stood was the young people. Many were tired of hearing the older people blaming the US or hearing that it was worse under the Shah. Many younger people were tired of the excuses, and these were “working-class” young men. One young man used Japan as an example saying they were destroyed in WW2, had two atom bombs dropped and look at them now! They changed, they adapted yet still kept their culture (of course, they were also occupied, rebuilt and restructured by the US over 5 years).
    The only way things will really change is if the Arabs quit being victims of someone or something and become more democratic. That is basically what this guy is saying. They only have themselves to blame if things don’t change.

  5. Pedram (the eyeranian) Avatar
    Pedram (the eyeranian)

    Self hate manifests itself in many different ways, you may have found just such an example. Although I do not subscribe to the blame it all on foreigners theory enjoyed by some of my countrymen, I also will not blame it all on Iranians.
    Rebecca – it isn’t our fault you poke your nose into our lives repeatedly. If you stayed out, we wouldn’t blame anything on you when things go wrong. In case of Iran, it all goes back to 1953, when your government decided the government we had elected wasn’t a good one and orchestrated the coup to bring Shah back to power. Unless there’s a re-writing of history, most Iranians will not forget that.
    Eric – The writer misses the point. If you pulled up a truck full of money anywhere and asked people to help you change a government, there will be some who’d help. Just ask Darrell Issa in California. Nobody asked Iranians to “betray Iran” therefore the analogy is corrupt to begin with. They were asked to help in overthrow of a government and many who needed the money did. Go into any poor neighborhood anywhere in US and offer money to change their governor or congressman, you’ll have a line up.
    Catherine – Iranians are not Arabs, except for a tiny percentage living near and around the Arabian Peninsula and Persian Gulf, compromising of only about 4% of Iran’s population. “The only way things will really change” is if we all learned a bit about the issue we talk about before offering solutions.

  6. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    Pedram,
    Certainly you can find people anywhere at anytime who were willing to sell out their government,either for reasons of greed, ideology, or a combination of both. This happened a lot in the US throughout the Cold War. But, I don’t think its as simple as going to a poor neighborhood and offering people a bunch of money. Where is this “poor neighbhorhood”? In the Bronx? In West Virginia? In Texas? There are huge regional and cultural differences throughout the US.
    I can understand Iranian anger at past US foreign policy, but I would imagine refusing to move on from events of 50 years ago could only be a hindrance to dealing with the problems Iran is facing today.

  7. Hooman Avatar
    Hooman

    There are some elements of truth in that post. But at the same time it is made up of angry notes on some spordic events in an oversimplified fashion.
    In a general note:
    You CAN walk into somebody’s life temporarily and leave a legacy that somebody has to deal with in every step of the way for the rest of somebody’s life. You don’t have to keep your nose poked in somebody’s life for good.

  8. Mohammad Shahi Avatar
    Mohammad Shahi

    The writer of this lettre is surely a pessimist Iranian who just hates his nationality. It’s not a big surprise. You have no idea how many Americans I’ve encountered here in Canada who hate their country based on their hatred of what the American government is doing and has done to other nations.
    History never changes. Nothing can never erase the bitter memory of 1953’s military coup induced by CIA and English Secret Agency in the Iranian mind.
    Iranian nation’s misery is, of course, Iranians’ fault. But that doesn’t mean that America has been innocent and has never done anything to distroy the Iranian democratic handiwork.
    By the way, if you compare the per capita income of Iranians with that of Americans, you would understand why that one million dollar story worked out in Iran but might not work out in the US; poverty, poverty, poverty… When it’s a quetion of survival, any patriot would become treacherous.

  9. Brant Avatar
    Brant

    I agree with the comment that holding a collective grudge after 50 years is not going to solve anything. The current America stands willing and ready to be a friend to a free and democratic Iran. We just want to know how we can help. But when we see various Iranians throw these sorts of recriminations over 1953 back in our faces, it makes us wonder if, perhaps, people in the Middle East don’t already have the governments that they want, or deserve.
    Simply put, harping on the past can be useful as far as educating people on the background of a situation, but at a certain point it begins to sound like whining, which is simply never conducive to progress.

  10. Eric Avatar
    Eric

    I believe that you could substitute a number of cultures or nation/states for Iran in this letter. I am always amazed by the number of people that blame the US for their own problems.
    Perhaps, but you have to admit that the US doesn’t help matters by propping up all sorts of unsavory foreign regimes, particularly in the Arab world. When the average guy in Saudi Arabia or Egypt sees George W. Bush praising his country’s autocratic and backwards government as a friend and ally, and engaging in photo-ops with the head of state, it becomes much easier to put the blame on a foreign hegemon. A big reason why Iranians are starting to look inwards with regards to their country’s shortcomings is because they really can’t blame the US for the policies taken by their government during the last 24 years.

  11. Catherine Avatar
    Catherine

    Sorry I offended by, whoops, calling Iranians Arabs. That’s not really all that relevant however. Perhaps I should have said “all the bellyachers in the Middle East.” I may not have the genealogy of Iranian family tree sorted out, but I do know “a little about the issue.”
    I didn’t offer a solution, just was relating an example from a documentary I watched.
    It’s a blog, and I can offer “solutions,” ideas, and anecdotes even if I am not a pompous know it all like you.

  12. Jerry in Jersey Avatar
    Jerry in Jersey

    “Moving on from what happens 50 years ago” needs at least steps to rectify the past mistakes which most will remember was started by Clinton administration and if followed it would had tremendous results in mending the gap that has existed between the two countries for decades. Then of course Dubya took the relations several decades further back by the stupidity of the “Axis of Evil” speech at his first state of the union address. So, we are stuck where we are today.
    Eric says “The current America stands willing and ready to be a friend to a free and democratic Iran.” when I think he means the average American does, as the current administration has done nothing to show shuch willingness and in fact by bringing up people like Reza Pahlavi and Chehregani has proved to most Iranians (who would love to let go of the “grudge” but keep getting hit in the face by the same arrogance and stupidity time after time) that they still don’t have any respect for Iranians choices or ideals.
    Iranians want to believe we want to be their friend, so lets elect leaders that are willing to show them we do also.

  13. Rebecca Avatar
    Rebecca

    I will readily admit that the US has made terrible decisions and policies that have led to dreadful outcomes for millions of people but for how long will you blame the US without seeing your(the collective your)part in the solution. Using the “US is to blame” excuse is easy, finding solutions within yourselves is the hard part.

  14. finnesota Avatar
    finnesota

    Catherine, you should have just let it go. You made a mistake and it pretty much undermined whatever the intent of your initial post was. (Oh right, you saw a movie on PBS. I love movies on PBS, too.) Referring to Arabs as “the Arabs” didn’t exactly help your cause either. It emphasizes an “us” and “them” mentality, and I think that’s what we’re all working towards resolving, yes? “Bellyachers” wasn’t exactly raising the bar either, whether meant as sarcasm or “humor”, and if anything you provided a pretty good example of why “they” hate “us”.

  15. history bozorg Avatar
    history bozorg

    Yeah, well, Mossadegh was an old man who had responded to his domentic critics by assuming dictatorial powers and dissolving the Majlis and the courts. Even if his intentions were good, he could have kicked off at any moment and been replaced by someone not so hampered by his putative ethics. The idea that things would have been better had the coup never occurred is speculative at best. What happened, happened. For crying out loud, it was 53 years ago. Time to move on.

  16. history bozorg Avatar
    history bozorg

    “domestic”

  17. Brant Avatar
    Brant

    I don’t understand people who comment that Pres. Bush’s “Axis of Evil” speech undermined relations with Iran, as if we should somehow be working on building good relations with the mullahcracy thugs that are currently in power. Making nice with dictators is what has turned the populations of other countries against us. Meanwhile, Iranians are said to be the most “pro-American” people in the Middle East, with the exception of Israel. The only reasonable lesson to draw from this is that, by refusing to recognize the legitimacy of the regime in Iran, we have gained some credibility with the people of Iran.

  18. Pedram (the eyeranian) Avatar
    Pedram (the eyeranian)

    Brant – “Axis of Evil” did the exact opposite. As an Iranian who opposes the current regime, I also thought it was a useless, untimely and ridiculous way of strenghtening the far-right position in Iran that has used the threat of a hostile foreign bogeyman to further oppress the voices of reason within the country. “Axis of Evil” was made for the consumption of people in U.S. (and perhaps other parts of the world), as it had absolutely no positive affect for Iran & Iranians.

  19. Reid Avatar
    Reid

    Pedram: You speak as if you are the sole authority and all Iranians agree with you. I recall that the SMCCDI was very complimentary of Bush’s speech. How about giving us Americans a breakdown of opinion in the Iranian community as to how many agree with you and how many don’t. Please be honest.

  20. infamouse Avatar
    infamouse

    Well, I’m sure the USSR wasn’t all too happy about being called the “Evil Empire” by Reagan, but that doesn’t make the comment any less true.

  21. Eric Deamer Avatar
    Eric Deamer

    Pedram,
    I looked over this thread again and I see that we’re having a misunderstanding about what it means to “change a government.” There is a huge difference between something like the California recall, which you mentioned, and fomenting a coup, to which the original post was referring. You may not agree with what Darrel Issa is doing, but it is perfectly legal, and within the framework of the California state constitution. Changing a congressman or senator or governor is one thing, overthrowing the government itself is something completely different. While there may be elements on the far left and far right in this country who would be very happy to see some political figures assassinated, and we’re already talking about a very small number of people here, the number of people who would actually want to see our form of government changed to something else, like a monarchy or dictatorship, would be even smaller, close to zero in fact. Americans of almost every political persuasion have a basic respect for the political institutions of our country: the federal system of government, the court system, and especially the consitution and the bill of rights which lays it all out, that is often difficult for people from other countries to grasp. For example, when Roosevelt tried to make a relatively small change in the way the Supreme Court is set up people accused him of trying to become a dictator and he was stopped from doing it. This would have been a relatively trivial issue in many or most other countries. We’ve had the same constitution since 1789. Its a big deal.
    And I’m rethinking the idea of poverty being a sufficient explanation for taking bribes to overthrow a government. Some people here would, but I don’t think a hard-working family of hispanic immmigrants, who had come to this country for freedom and opportunity, would do so. Keep in mind also, that most of the men and women in our armed forces, who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for this country, are poor by American standards.
    Some have cricized the US for supporting dictatorial regimes in the Middle East, but when when we “unilaterally” decided to depose the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein, we were also criticized. This is the dilemma that America always faces.
    As for “Axis of Evil,” when Reagan made his famous “Evil Empire” comment, it caused all sorts of tongue-clicking here. After the fact, many reports said that the remark had a big effect in eventually causing the Soviet Union to reform. Many citizens were happy that we took such a firm stand against their brutal government.

  22. Brant Avatar
    Brant

    Pedram:
    We Americans have a weakness for calling something what it is. Speaking the truth does cause some people to get the vapors, but there isn’t much that we can do about that.
    The regime in Iran is evil (i.e., corrupt, supportive of terrorism, oppressive of its people, etc.). I doubt you will get much argument with that comment from those who support the democracy movement in Iran.