Angels tripping on the head of a pin

Angels tripping on the head of a pin
: Ibidem links to a post at Minute Particular making a (fallacious) argument regarding justification for war:

One way to shake out where we all really stand is to put forth a relevant but hypothetical situation, a situation about which we can indeed know the details. Let’s say we invade a country for one reason, let’s call it reason A, and discover after our invasion that reason A actually didn’t pertain, (we might call this reaction OOPS); but let’s also posit that we discover circumstances that present us with another reason, let’s call it B, that would have been just as valid a reason as A was had we only known it prior to invading. In fact, A and B, while substantially different, seem to have equal moral weight and urgency. Now then, does the discovery of reason B after our invasion justify our invasion even if we had vehemently stated prior to attacking that we were doing so based on reason A?

Yes or no? Let’s not talk about what you read or heard on talk radio. Let’s stick to basic moral concepts that we all ought to have pondered on occasion. In principle, can one do something because of A, discover that A doesn’t apply, discover that B would have been just as valid, and justify one’s actions now with B after the fact?

If you say “yes” then you’re comfortable with an end justifying a means to that end, and further, you’re comfortable with discovering that end after the fact.

If you say “no,” then you’re aligned with the what I think is the traditional moral stance on ends and means, the principles of which I discussed briefly in my post last month, ENDS AND MEANS.

What’s fallacious about this is that we knewjustification B — read: mass murder and tyranny — before the war and that was in and of itself sufficient moral justification for the war (and would have been sufficient moral justification a decade before — in fact, higher moral justification, for that would have prevented countless murders in the meantime).

I cannot see a moral justification for leaving Saddam in power anymore than one can make a moral justification for leaving Hitler or Pol Pot in power.

So this argument of A v. B is not a moral argument. It is a political argument, a public relations argument.

The mistake was to justify the war on the unknown A (read: WMD) instead of the known B (mass murder). That mistake was made in an attempt to court France, Germany, the U.N., and certain corners of the British Parliament.

Was it a moral or merely tactical mistake to try to court their support?

Or ask it another way: If you know that moral justification B exists, it is moral to insist on the additional moral justification A? I think not.

20 responses to “Angels tripping on the head of a pin”

  1. Justin Katz Avatar

    Actually, the entire equation is off, as I addressed the other day.

  2. Charlie Avatar
    Charlie

    “fallacious”

  3. Mike G Avatar

    We didn’t go to war because Saddam had WMDs. We went to war because there was a strong presumption that he did, and he had an obligation (stemming from the terms of a previous war) to make it clear he didn’t, and he chose not to, apparently out of a belief that he could skate through again and still be the Arab big man, which would give him yet another chance to invade some neighbor (something he had a significant past record of doing).
    All that is as true now as it ever was or ever will be, no matter what is or is not found. The police sniper is not blamed for murder when the man wired to a dozen sticks of dynamite holding a school bus hostage turns out to be covered with toilet paper tubes painted to look like dynamite.

  4. BF Avatar

    JJ has it right exactly. It would have been moral to take out the SOB in ’91 and any time since. It would have been moral after the first time he obstructed weapons inspectors. It was moral after violations of 17 UN resolutions. The US Army didn’t stumble dumbfounded upon mass graves. Everyone knew what was happening in that country. The shame is that the world let it happen for so long.

  5. Eye Opener Avatar
    Eye Opener

    And FURTHER shame is that the Leftist-Liberals are coming back to DO AGAIN what they did so well in those 12 intervening years! Obfuscate, mislead, harangue, calumniate, denigrate, confuse and apologize…
    THAT seems shameful, when their record is so verifiably wrong, about so many of their dire predictions prior to military effort, yet now they jump in again, with the same attitude, unrepentant and unwise and refusing to learn… how does that song go? “A change in behaviour is the concrete manifestation of a lesson learned…”
    Do they change their behaviour? Uhm, yeah, sort of… from puke-ins and shit-ins to ‘black-spot’ oooga-boooga voodoo. That’s a change, isn’t it?
    Or do I need yet another Eye Opener?

  6. balbulican Avatar
    balbulican

    Would the American public have supported an invasion of Iraq to “liberate” the Iraqi people, had they not been told repeatedly that Iraq represented a real threat to their own peace and security?

  7. Abiola Lapite Avatar

    “Would the American public have supported an invasion of Iraq to “liberate” the Iraqi people, had they not been told repeatedly that Iraq represented a real threat to their own peace and security?”
    More important than this, I think, was that the Bush administration didn’t want to emphasize the humanitarian rationale for the simple reason that it might lead others to question it’s inaction in other areas down the line.
    To illustrate, suppose Bush suddenly started emphasizing the humanitarian benefits of the war over the WMD rationale; nobody would question that it had been worthwhile, but someone might then say “Well, how come you aren’t doing anything about the Congo, or Liberia?” Cheney, Rumsfeld and company would rather be damned to public condemnation than lift a finger to intervene in Africa.

  8. BF Avatar

    “Would the American public have supported an invasion of Iraq to “liberate” the Iraqi people, had they not been told repeatedly that Iraq represented a real threat to their own peace and security?”
    Before 9/11 no. After 9/11 yes – they did not need to be told. Saddam’s record was sufficient reason after 9/11.
    All SOB dictators are not equally compelling targets for practical and political reasons, even if they are all reasonable targets for moral reasons. What’s so hard to comprehend?
    What historical legacy does the US have in the Congo? How about the Europeans taking a turn? How about the BELGIANS?

  9. Abiola Lapite Avatar

    “What historical legacy does the US have in the Congo?”
    Your ignorance of the historical reality is shocking.
    The American involvement in the Congo goes back to its’ very founding as the Congo Free State, personal property of King Leopold. It was American recognition of Leopold’s claim that forced the European powers to recognize it in turn; this set the way for the brutal misrule that would characterize Leopold’s rule for the next two decades.
    But it doesn’t end there. The U.S. found Congo extremely useful during World War II – 90 percent of all uranium used in the Manhattan Project came from a Congolose mine. This ore was extracted by the Belgian colonial government on behalf of the U.S. in the typical “benovelent” Belgian fashion.
    Once Congolese agitation pushed the Belgians to grant the country independence, Belgian and American security operatives, worried about what they considered to be Lumumba’s insufficient pliancy, helped organize a seccession movement in the Congo’s Katanga province; Lumumba called for UN intervention, and as the Americans grew increasingly worried that he would turn to the Soviet Union for arms to crush the Katanga rebellion, Eisenhower gave the go-ahead for Lumumba’s assassination.
    The Americans had planned to do the deed themselves, and in fact the CIA sent an agent to the Congo with instructions to poison Lumumba. As it turned out, this was unnecessary, as the Belgians, seeing the American green-light, organized for Lumumba to be transported to Katanga, where a Belgian agent participated in having Lumumba shot, chopped into pieces and then dissolved in acid.
    With the troublesome Lumumba out of the way, the CIA later aided a certain Colonal Joseph Desire Mobutu in carrying out a coup plot that ended with him ensconced in power. Once at the helm, he took to playing the role of Anti-Communist Stalwart with gusto, and was rewarded for this with free-flowing American aid, despite an awareness of the corrupt and brutal nature of his regime.
    And Mobutu was indeed helpful, kindly allowing his country to be used in abetting the UNITA insurgency in Angola led by the “freedom fighter” Jonas Savimbi (well, Reagan thought him one, so who are we to argue?) And who was America’s other ally in this valiant struggle against the communist hordes? Why, none other than the freedom-loving government of apartheid South-Africa!
    Once the Soviet Union had collapsed and the Struggle Against Communism had ceased to be pressing, America quickly turned off the taps and forgot about the old despot in the leopard-skin hat. Mobutu, now stripped of his “Anti-Communist” cover, was finally forced to pay attention to the subjects he had spent so many years robbing with American connivance. Ever less able to play the various ethnicities off against each other with the sort of funds he once had at his disposal, Mobutu finally fled to Morocco in 1997, leaving his countrymen to fight amongst themselves as to what should become of their nation, a fight that is still ongoing.
    Which brings us to where we are today. I suppose it was ignorance of the facts that drove you to assume that America had nothing to do with Congo’s plight, and it is not a crime to be ignorant; but many of those who work in the higher echelons of America’s government are well aware of the true state of affairs, and are unwilling to clean up the mess they did so much to help create.
    If Americans are surprised at the cynicism with which the world meets their claims to be championing the cause of the Iraqi or Iranian people, it is because of just this sort of selective recall; does anyone expect even liberal Iranians to trust the U.S., after Mossadegh’s overthrow and subsequent support for the Shah? And it isn’t just Iranians that remember what happened either – all across the world, people see the selective outrage about human suffering, and say to themselves “why should I believe a damn thing the Americans say?”
    I am by not anti-American by any means; in fact I supported the invasion of Iraq, entirely for humanitarian reasons, and I think it was disgusting of France and Germany to create so much ill-will just for the sake of preserving a swaggering despot. A detached observer might even say that I am firmly right-of-center in my politics. Nevertheless, I am not blind to hypocrisy when I see it, and I say it is hypocritical for Americans who go on and on about “freedom” and “liberty” and so forth, to turn a blind eye to strife in Africa, simply because there are no oil reserves or nuclear programmes at issue.

  10. BF Avatar

    “Your ignorance of the historical reality is shocking.”
    And your arrogance is silly and uncalled for.
    “The American involvement in the Congo goes back to its’ very founding as the Congo Free State, personal property of King Leopold. It was American recognition of Leopold’s claim that forced the European powers to recognize it in turn; this set the way for the brutal misrule that would characterize Leopold’s rule for the next two decades.”
    It was diplomacy in 1885. By your reasoning, the Finns would be responsible for the Holocaust because they sided with Nazi Germany in WW II. The Americans were not the Belgians’ keeper in the 19th century and were not responsible for Belgian behavior.
    As for the Cold War, if your politics is indeed right of center, then I think you would acknowledge the importance of standing up to the Soviets. War is not pretty whether it be fought cold or hot. Perhaps you think these countries would have fared better as Soviet client states?
    “Nevertheless, I am not blind to hypocrisy when I see it, and I say it is hypocritical for Americans who go on and on about “freedom” and “liberty” and so forth, to turn a blind eye to strife in Africa, simply because there are no oil reserves or nuclear programmes at issue.”
    It is not the responsibility of the United States to deliver freedom and liberty to the world. It is practically speaking, impossible. To call US selective attention to particular world problems hypocrisy is simply immature. Let’s say a Middle East oil crisis precipitated a worldwide economic depression. How much attention and aid would Africa receive in that event? Grow up.
    Blind eye to Africa? Does Somalia ring a bell? There the US received a black eye. Why should US troops return to Africa, as opposed to European troops? Give me one compelling reason.
    It is time for the Europeans to step up and take care of Africa, which their colonial legacy left in shambles. There are 450 million relatively rich Euros. The US pays half the NATO budget. The Euros ought to take care of African security.

  11. balbulican Avatar
    balbulican

    “Before 9/11 no. After 9/11 yes – they did not need to be told. Saddam’s record was sufficient reason after 9/11.”
    Sorry, you lost me there. What’s the connection between 9/11 and Saddam’s human rights record?

  12. BF Avatar

    “Sorry, you lost me there. What’s the connection between 9/11 and Saddam’s human rights record?”
    I did not specify human rights record per se. After 9/11, a dictator with the following record could not be tolerated:
    — the history of nuclear, chemical and bio weapons production and willingness to use.
    — history of hiding said programs from international agencies, weapons still unaccounted for, continued lack of compliance with UN resolutions (including 1441).
    — threatening and invading immediate neighboring countries – using chemical weapons.
    — decades of overt and covert support for terrorists wanted internationally, including Al Quaeda members.
    — unabashed anti US and anti-West sentiments including praise and glorification of 9/11 events.
    — intentional environmental destruction on a massive scale.
    — then there is the human rights record. Mass murder on a scale equaled or exceeded by only the worst monsters in history (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot…).
    — said records being the reason for 10 years of US troop deployment in Saudia Arabia, which was the principal thorn for Usama, and could be said to be the underlying motivation for 9/11.
    This is not your garden variety despot who jails or murders political opponents. That he could be tolerated for so long is shameful for the world. George HW Bush, in not ridding the world of this man when he could, in fomenting dissent among the Shia and Kurds, then doing nothing to stop their subsequent slaughter, in choosing a realpolitik solution over a compelling moral choice, has much to explain in his legacy.

  13. Balbulican Avatar
    Balbulican

    Help me out here, BF. When Messrs. Bush and Powell told the the world that the America invasion could still be averted if Saddam provided full disclosure…they were…kidding? Lying? Mistaken?

  14. BF Avatar

    “Help me out here, BF. When Messrs. Bush and Powell told the the world that the America invasion could still be averted if Saddam provided full disclosure…they were…kidding? Lying? Mistaken?”
    None of the above. It’s diplomatic parrying. Would Saddam have ever provided full disclosure? Apparently not. Was this obvious from the start? — quite. As they said at the time, such behavior on Saddam’s part would be effectively the same as regime change. Chance of happening? – zero.

  15. balbulican Avatar
    balbulican

    Got you. This explains why so many of us mistakenly thought it was all about weapons of mass destruction…because the President said so. But it was just “diplomatic parrying”. Thanks for the clarification.
    Now…when a head of state that you DON’T like “diplomatically parries”…is THAT lying?

  16. BF Avatar

    “Got you. This explains why so many of us mistakenly thought it was all about weapons of mass destruction…because the President said so. But it was just “diplomatic parrying”. Thanks for the clarification.
    Now…when a head of state that you DON’T like “diplomatically parries”…is THAT lying?”
    It was never ALL about WMD. It was about geopolitics, disengaging from Saudia Arabia, geosecurity, WMD, and a new threat made apparent by 9/11. You couldn’t figure that out? What can one say.
    Polititions jockey for diplomatic position. Is this a revelation to you? What planet have you been living on? France’s concern, I suppose, was ALL about international law – isn’t that what they said? Do you believe that one for an instant? Ask the Poles.
    Who said I liked Bush? Be careful of your assumptions, you are jousting with ghosts of your own imagination.
    You’ve distilled your moral position down to a juvenile gotcha game. Meanwhile, go prove Bush was lying. Go ahead. Good luck.

  17. balbulican Avatar
    balbulican

    Sorry, BF, the phrase “got you” was meant to imply “I understand you”, not “gotcha”. Regional turn of phrase, I expect.
    Well, we seem to agree. You call it “diplomatic parrying” and I call it “lying”, but we both acknowledge that Mr. Bush had no intention of cancelling the invasion, whether Saddan complied or not.
    We also agree that the actual reasons for the war were, as you say, “geopolitics, disengaging from Saudia Arabia, geosecurity, WMD, and a new threat made apparent by 9/11”. Just a reminder…I think these days you’re supposed to add “the Liberation of the Iraqi People” to that list…that’s now (retroactively) the “realest” of the real reasons.
    My point is that the US would not have condoned an invasion if its citizens had not felt directly and personally threatened by Iraq. Hence the emphasis on WMD and the hysterical (and ongoing) attempts to link Saddam with Sept. 11th. Successful attempts, I concede…remember that AP poll that showed 20% of Americans believed that there were Iraqi hijackers on those planes?

  18. BF Avatar

    Sorry for the misunderstanding balbulican. Regional nuance “got me”. I agree, Bush had no intention of cancelling the invasion under the circumstances – but had there been an Iraqi revolution, assassination of Saddam, or his willing exile, he may well have cancelled it. We’ll never know.
    My view is that the Bush administration genuinely felt threatened by Iraq. If not immediately threatened, they felt the threat would mature and eventually germinate (particularly given the history of France and Russia calling for an end to sanctions). I feel that they tried to convince the world of what they believed, whether or not the intelligence provided the level of proof one would require in a criminal trial. They are at the end of a long list of officials making claims of WMD in Iraq, including the Clinton administration and UN weapons inspectors. So it seems unlikely WMD were a just a myth, or a tale drummed up by solely by Bush et al.
    As for 20% of Americans believing there were Iraqis on those planes — hell, more than 20% of Americans can’t name the vice president, so that’s no great surprise.

  19. balbulican Avatar
    balbulican

    Well, you ain’t alone, bud. Apparently 18% of Canadians (18%!! CANADIANS!!!) believe Elvis is still alive. Sheesh.
    I honestly don’t have a clue (of course, none of us really do) how much of the WMD message was an expression of sincere concern and belief and how much was an attempt to frighten the populace into a malleable state of mind. Being by nature a cynic, I am usually inclined to believe that the messages emitted by government (any government of the left or right) are framed and phrased to maximize popular support for government policy…so if the message is “be afraid…be very afraid”, I have to conclude that the government wants to do something that will be facilitated by my fear.
    When we all meet in the Great Beyond, I will be delighted to be proven wrong. You will recognize me…I will be carrying a green tennis ball and a rolled up copy of the Globe and Mail.

  20. BF Avatar

    Hold the presses…Elvis died?!
    I’ll meet you in Graceland. I’ll be the one using a trackball with his laptop (hate those damn pads…).
    Elvis would have used a trackball…and a Mac.
    There’s a way to start a flame war…