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In God we think we trust

19 comments on In God we think we trust

In God we think we trust
: There’s a discussion brewing in the comments following my post on the BBC and American religion, below.

Oliver Willis writes:

It’s true that the tone is condescending, but its also true that if you’re not Christian – America marginalizes you. This comes from an agnostic with a Christian family.

Anil Dash writes:

Amen to that, Oliver. I think most people of the Christian faith in this country really don’t see just how accurately this description fits a large majority of this country.

And I reply:

Well, gentlemen, I’m feeling a little marginalized right now as a mainstream, rational, doubting, liberal, intellectual Christian.

To generalize about all Christians is every bit as sinful — oops! politically incorrect — as generalizing about, what, all Muslims?

I’m tired of people thinking I should be ashamed of what I am.

On September 11th, evil f’ers tried to kill me because I am an American. I now wear an American flag on my lapel.

I get lumped in with the religious nuts of the far right if I go to church on a given Sunday. Well, I’ll wear my religion on my sleeve, too.

I go to church and I am not a right-wing, fundamentalist nut and won’t be painted as one.

: And the comments continue with this post. And my dander stays up.

Let me amend what I said above: On September 11th, Muslim fanatics tried to kill me because I am an American and because I am not a Muslim, because I am a Christian. I count that as religious persecution.

And now I find British journalists — and my online friends — lumping me in with religious nuts because I am Christian. That, too, is religious persecution and it upsets me, especially now, especially after September 11th.

Have we learned nothing?

19 responses to “In God we think we trust”

  1. Charles Compton Avatar
    Charles Compton

    The right to embrace a particular religious faith (or none at all) is a cherished American tradition.
    Yet, embracing atheism or agnosticism purely for bragging purposes (as Oliver Willis seems to be doing) strikes me as a bit bizarre.

  2. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    No, I’ll heartily defend Oliver’s choice. I wouldn’t diminish his and wouldn’t want him to diminish mine. That is, after all, the very founding principle of the country.

  3. Anil Avatar
    Anil

    But where, where, are the moderate Christian voices! (heh) In all seriousness, I don’t hear any prominent christian voices asking to remove the references to god from our currency, our swearing-in processes, the beginnings of our legislative sessions and school days.
    In fact, we’ve got a commander in chief in favor of prayer in schools, backed by a party that objects to the equal participation of gays in society based on the same verses of the bible that the radical islamists use to justify their homophobia.
    Can you actually argue that the rights of people who aren’t Christian (or, better, of the Judeo-Islamo-Christian faiths) are treated equally to those who are? The point’s not to make you feel ashamed that you’re christian. It’s that I never should have been made to feel ashamed because I’m *not*.
    I submit that the reason you’re marginalized as a rational liberal christian is because the people in control of mainstream christian identity are as extremist as the nuts who hijacked the messages of groups like PETA and the NRA.

  4. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    Why do you feel ashamed, Anil?
    I’m an atheist, I don’t feel ashamed around Christians, Jews, Muslims, or anyone of any religion. See, no one can make you feel ashamed; you do that to yourself. Anyone who attacks you verbally or treats you rudely for not believing what they do have at the very least committed a social faux pas and certainly do not deserve any amount of worry over how they feel. (Anyone who attacks you physically has committed a crime. Call the police.)
    I’m sorry if some Christians have treated you rudely because you aren’t like them. But that is their problem, not yours.

  5. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    Anil:
    The moderate Christian voices are the founding fathers’ voices. They created our Constitution with the safeguards that prevent one religion from taking over and oppressing others. The system works.
    You said:
    “I think most people of the Christian faith in this country really don’t see just how accurately this description fits a large majority of this country.”
    You generalized about me and people of my faith. And you are wrong.
    I’m offended by your statement, not out of PETA PCishness but because that very sentiment is accusatory, intolerant, and unAmerican.
    We believe in freedom of religion in America. We believe in it to our core and in our soul. We are all equally free to practice the religion of our choice, yes — and that practice is protected by the very Consititution that formed this nation. Point me to any other nation where that is as true as it is here. Saudi Arabia ruled by its fanatics? England with a state religion? France with its own problems with Muslims and Jews? Germany? Russia? India? Pakistan? China?
    Pardon me for being proud to be an American and comfortable being a Christian. No, don’t pardon me. I don’t need anyone’s pardon, not here.
    Don’t you realize that you are doing to me exactly what you are accusing others of doing to you?

  6. Kathy K Avatar
    Kathy K

    Jeff, I have to disagree. America may believe in it, but doesn’t often practice it. There is a prejudice you won’t hear or see since you are a Christian.
    But I’m with Andrea on this one. It’s their problem.
    (Anil…)
    And if they try to make it yours, by physically attacking you, defend yourself. (Personally, I prefer pistols to cops, but that’s up to you.)

  7. Oliver Avatar
    Oliver

    Yes, my embracing of agnoticism is a blatant attempt to say… I don’t know. Don’t know how projecting a lack of knowledge comes off as bragging somehow. Anywho.
    We believe in freedom of religion in America.
    We just don’t practice it. How else to explain the howls and condemnations that come from both sides of the aisle when someone has the gall to say we shouldn’t commingle religion (especially Judeo-Christian) and politics? Pro-religious stances are one of the few things we can rely on our government to be truly bipartisan about. How else to explain the kindergarten level response to the 9th circuit’s ruling on the pledge of allegiance? Even if you thought the ruling was asinine, was it really necessary for so many members of our congress to scream “UNDER GOD” from the steps of the Capitol? I’m not fooling myself, I’m sure 70-80% of America sees that and says “No Big Whoop”. But the idea of America is that the religious views and beliefs of that other 20% is just as valid, and our government should act like it.
    Frankly, I believe America is more likely to elect a minority than a non-believer to the presidency if push came to shove.

  8. Scott Chaffin Avatar
    Scott Chaffin

    I’ll take that last one, and say that Congresscritters have every right to stand on the steps and say it, just as I do and just as you choose not to. It might have been necessary FOR THEM personally and individually. It could have been just another facile attempt to garner votes, which is what I consider the most likely driver, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. After all, the 9th Circuit is holds judicial sway over only one part of this country.
    That doesn’t in any way, shape, or form invalidate the beliefs of the other 20% of America. The Bill of Rights stands for all 280mm of us, and your agnostic personage is protected by them, too.

  9. Rev. Donald Sensing Avatar
    Rev. Donald Sensing

    I with you, Jeff! Excellent points.

  10. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    I think the whole problem stems from the fact that people tend to think of faiths as monolithic blocks where the adherence of one or another are all hypnotized drones chanting the same meaningless set of words. Funny, no one complains that humans are all acting like hypnotized drones because we tend to walk on our legs and rarely try to drink milk through our noses…
    And in any case, I am surprised that the on-so-intellectual BBC doesn’t even know that there are more than one kind of Christian, yes, even in Jesus Christ America. For example, I believe one of the largest denominations here is Roman Catholic. They are about as different from, say, Southern Baptists as you can get. And then there are the many flavors of Protestanism, and so on. But no, just because they “know” Bush is a frothing Bible-waver (though I have yet to see him wave a Bible around or hear him use anything other than the most inoffensive Biblical references in his speeches), therefore everyone in America worships the ground Oral Roberts walks on. I don’t think so.

  11. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    Um, that should say “the adherents of one or another…”

  12. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    Well said, Andrea (the post, not the correction)

  13. Alex Knapp Avatar
    Alex Knapp

    I keep my personal religious beliefs private–as far as I’m concerned, whether I’m atheist, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastorian, or Muslim, is of nobody’s concern but mine. But I’ve never experienced any “prejudice” because of my decision to keep my religion private. Mostly, when I’ve noticed prejudice against atheists/agnostics, it’s because said persons were acting like obnoxious assholes. ‘Course, lots of religious persons act like obnoxious assholes, too. But that has nothing to do with religious belief and everything to do with the fact that a large minority of humanity are obnoxious assholes.

  14. Rick Bruner Avatar
    Rick Bruner

    As a life-long atheist myself (brought up by formerly Catholic parents who forswore the Church long before I came on the scene), I’d say I’ve never really felt actively discriminated against personally (granted I don’t often go out of my way to talk about my atheism), but I definitely can relate to what Anil and others are saying, at least in terms of the hypocrisy to the idea of a separation between Church and State in this country. In (our) God we trust, but atheists, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. are certainly held slightly suspect.
    Really, why does the money say “In God we trust”? How can we possibly explain that away where there is a separation of Church and State in this country? Granted, I agree we’ve gotten freedom of religion better than just about anywhere else, but we’re a nation of ideals, and that one really doesn’t jibe. There are plenty of reminders that Christianity is the official religion of this country in every way except absolutely literally. I would agree that unless you are outside of the majority, it is probably hard to recognize this.
    Not that I really spend much time worrying about it, but I have to say that hearing Rev. Franklin Graham swearing in Bush at his inauguration for like 20 minutes, sounding like a televangelist the whole time, did rather sicken me. And it wasn’t just me.
    There is simply no question that “under God” has no place in a “pledge of allegiance” to our government that is all but compulsory for grade schoolers. No question. Sure, if you do subscribe to any other non-Christian monotheist religion, you can pretend the reference is to your god (though try explaining that to your classmates in Wyoming), but as someone who actively believes that the belief in God is, let’s say, mistaken, where does that leave me? “One nation under God.” Am I not a part of that nation? Apparently not. How we claim one of the sanctities of this country is the freedom of religion (including the right to no religion), and then call it one nation under God (with a capital G no less)?
    As I say, I don’t spend a lot of time worry about it or trying to anti-proselytize about it, as it were. But the hypocrisy of it is undeniable. And, yes, I found it again rather alienating — correction: appalling — to see all the Congressmen on the steps of Congress chanting the pledge, God intact, in a complete “in your face godless heathens” display. That’s somehow an inclusive, patriotic act? It certainly didn’t embody the ideals of this country that I’d swear to uphold.
    And don’t get me started on all the post-September 11 singing of “God Bless America.” What is wrong with “America the Beautiful”? It’s a much pretty song, really.
    The terrorists did not fly into the WTC because we are Christians. I am not. There are plenty of Christian countries they could have attacked. They attacked this country because it is America, which is my country, as well. Don’t deny me that. Or Anil.

  15. Anil Avatar
    Anil

    Thanks, Rick. You articulated my point better than I was able.

  16. Jeff Jarvis Avatar
    Jeff Jarvis

    Of course, the terrorists attacked us because this is a Christian nation, a non-Muslim nation, a nation of infidels. This is, in their mind, a religious war. Where have you been?
    Don’t deny me that, either.
    As for God on money and such … get over that. That is the infantile version of the discussion of the separation of church and state.
    There are much more pressing issues. I worry — as did members of Congress when they confirmed him — that John Ashcroft will enforce his religious agenda over his Constitutional duty. I worry about George Bush’s “faith-based initiatives,” using tax dollars to support religious agendas. So far, they have been held in check because we do believe in the separation of church and state and our system — legal and political — enforces that.
    At the same time, you should find with encouragement that courts have held that “under God” does not belong in a school pledge. You should note that we still do not have school vouchers using state money to support religious education.
    Our system works. We have checks and balances. George Bush — or Jimmy Carter — cannot singlehandedly steer the government to God.
    Meanwhile, don’t forget, that if your neighbor or a Congressman or a President wants to pray… well, that is their right, too. Don’t deny them that.

  17. Justin Katz Avatar
    Justin Katz

    Well, I guess more comes down to situation and perception than we tend to admit. Personally, I felt as if I was coming out of the closet when I admitted to converting to Catholicism from nothing. I never once felt as if I was treated differently for my varying atheism/agnosticism, when that was my faith. Indeed, I felt so comfortable with it that I generally had no compunction at all openly scoffing at others for having religion, and now that I’m among the believers, I’ve found many atheists and agnostics who share that lack of inhibition.
    Gimme a break.
    I’m not going to get into the theology of God being a required guarantor of trust — essentially a requirement for the American way of constructing society. But this notion that acknowledging a Deity on money or indirectly in a pledge to a nation is somehow the equivalent of coercion takes things a bit far. Memo to atheists: you don’t believe in God; therefore, you are not blaspheming against anybody or anything by surrounding an “ah” sound with a “G” and a “D.” Until you’re asked to pay a fine for not attending mass on Sunday (Saturday, with a note from your doctor), I don’t see that you’ve got much to complain about. If it makes no material difference to you, why should your minority view trump the desire of such a vast majority?
    As for official religions, I’d suggest that the deliberate absence and exclusion of religion is as contrary to the spirit of the “separation of church and state” as deliberate promotion of it. Where are all the moderate secularists to protest the encouragement of the use of birth control in the schools and the ritual practice of recycling?

  18. Matt McIrvin Avatar
    Matt McIrvin

    Jeff: There is no way that the decision about “under God” being unconstitutional will stand. It’s politically inconceivable in modern America that it could stand. The Supreme Court will overthrow it, or Congress will amend the Constitution– and I’d really prefer the former, since an amendment could have dangerous side effects if they’re not careful. It’s just not worth it for something this minor.
    Justin: Blasphemy isn’t an issue; lying is, if it comes to that. It doesn’t bother me one bit that other people say the Pledge of Allegiance with “under God” in it, but it would bother me if I were somehow required to say it myself. If I had to swear to God when serving on a jury, I would technically be committing perjury.
    But there are already allowances for that; that’s one of the reasons why you can usually (always?) use a non-theistic affirmation in court instead of an oath. (That, and the religions that forbid swearing oaths.)
    As things are, it’s no skin off my nose. I don’t, in fact, ever have to say the Pledge of Allegiance at all, let alone the current version of same, and nobody is forcing me to pretend to believe some slogan written on a dollar bill, except maybe for the part about it being legal tender for all debts, public and private, and nobody seems to know what that means anyway.
    So I don’t feel oppressed by any of this silly stuff. “In God We Trust” and such is just an acknowledgement that Americans overwhelmingly believe in God; the fact itself doesn’t offend or frighten me, so expressions of same don’t either.
    Where things get divisive and overheated is, of course, wherever children are involved. The whole thing comes down to one of those aggravating “won’t anybody think of the children???” issues.
    If you have a whole classroom of kids saying the Pledge of Allegiance, is that somehow coercive? Maybe emotionally so, but, on the other hand, it might be a valuable experience for a kid to stand up for something she believes in in the face of opposition. On the other other hand, the opposition could get ugly. I remember reading about one of these cases back in the eighties in which the girl involved had to put up with not just being different from the other kids, but harassment from the school authorities and anonymous death threats (she was Jewish and one caller said she “should have gone in the ovens”). But that’s an argument against the harassment she got, not against the Pledge in the first place.
    Whatever. At the moment, with everything that’s going on, I have a hard time getting worked up over it.

  19. Andrea Harris Avatar
    Andrea Harris

    The whole “under god” line was added to the Pledge in the fifties as a reaction to “godless communists.” It was a campaign akin to the silly “freedom fries” thing, though obviously more lasting. But it was not originally part of the Pledge.