Moral leadership

The former Archbishop of Canterbury speaks out against Islamic violence:

Lord Carey said that Muslims must address “with great urgency” their religion’s association with violence. He made it clear that he believed the “clash of civilisations” endangering the world was not between Islamist extremists and the West, but with Islam as a whole.

“We are living in dangerous and potentially cataclysmic times,” he said. “There will be no significant material and economic progress [in Muslim communities] until the Muslim mind is allowed to challenge the status quo of Muslim conventions and even their most cherished shibboleths.” . . .

Lord Carey went on to argue that a “deep-seated Westophobia” has developed in recent years in the Muslim world. . . .

He said he agreed with his Muslim friends who claimed that true Islam is not a violent religion, but he wanted to know why Islam today had become associated with violence. “The Muslim world must address this matter with great urgency,” he said.

  • kat

    Will they now start burning this guy in effigy and demanding that he become a muslim or off with his head as they are demanding of the Pope?

  • Dan

    Seriously, it’s ridiculous that even raising a point of criticism against anything Islamic results in shrieking, effigy burning, public tantrums and threats of violence. It’s not just ridiculous — it’s unacceptable. We have to stop allowing thugs to browbeat us into silence!

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    The West thinks that the rest of the world has no memory.

    Does someone remember millions of civilians killed in Vietnam by the USA?

    Who was involved segregation and slave trade in the USA?

    The war to colonise hearts and minds

  • http://www.francispage.net Christopher Francis

    Muhammad — war, slavery, and the original sins of other nations aren’t the issues.

    The issue is Muslim extremists who undermine an entire faith by answering criticism of violence with more violence, making it harder for moderates to fight the stereotype and pushing towards Glenn Beck’s prediction that all Muslims — radical or not — will soon be looking at the outside world “through razor wire.” The lie is becoming the unfortunate truth because nobody’s doing a heckuva lot to disprove the lie.

    The question you need to be asking: Why aren’t Muslims burning Osama Bin Laden in effigy?

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    Secular society in the west has become strong enough over the past three centuries that the worst excesses of the Catholic church are no longer practiced. (Lest we forget: the Spanish Inquistion, the treatment of the indigenous peoples of South America, the Crusades.)

    Now one way to look at this is to say that the church has matured. Another way is to say that it no longer has the political backing that it did when the strongest rulers of Europe were all Catholic. Those who want to “prove” that Christianity is (was) bloodthirsty can refer to history, those who want to “prove” that Christianity is a religion of good works can point to appropriate examples.

    Why can’t those who ignore the bloody past see that the same dynamics exist in the Muslim world? There are secular forces at work (such as what was the status under Saddam, or modern Syria) and there are religous forces at work as well. If critics chose to emphasize the current bloody tactics of the extremists and thereby condemn whole societies they are being as broad brush in their opinions as those who do the same with Christianity.

    If Islam is truely and fundamentally a religion of unceasing violence against non-believers than what are the options for the rest of the world? Are we going to engage in a war of total annihilation? Are we going force Muslims to convert to “peaceful” Christianity? Are we going to isolate all 1.4 billion of them?

    If Christianity could mature by selectively ignoring part of its fundamental scriptures why not Islam? You do not solve a problem by demonizing your opponents unless you are planning genocide.

    So, to all that see Islam as a fundamentally violent belief what do suggest the west do about it?

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Right now, the West is involved in the violence in many parts of the world.

    The history of the Western crimes is very long. The Holocaust is a prime example.

    The western media kept silent in case of a young Iraqi Woman who was gang-raped and murdered by five American soldiers in Iraq. The soldiers also killed her father, mother, and young sister in her family home south of Baghdad.

    The obvious silence of the Western media in case of the young Iraqi woman shows that it does not care about human rights if the victim is a Muslim. On the other hand, a rape victim gets a celebrity status if the perpetrator of the crime is a Muslim. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to work out reasons behind the dualism of the Western media. It is a case of pure hypocrisy.

    Read More …

    The war to colonise hearts and minds

  • W.A. Jones

    “So, to all that see Islam as a fundamentally violent belief what do suggest the west do about it?”

    The West doesn’t want to do anything about the “violent belief” other than to keep them from chopping off our heads and blowing up our cities. But we will do something — and it won’t be pretty. Or we can just wait until Islam matures — whichever comes first.

    Go ask some mullah to study the “dynamics” of Islam and Christianity, and see if you get a debate or a sword.

  • W.A. Jones

    Muhammad,

    The Western media is suspicious of the military — if not hostile — and would love to shame those soldiers. I don’t think you’re being very honest about the “obvious silence.” And your statement, “a rape victim gets a celebrity status if the perpetrator of the crime is a Muslim,” is just plain silly and foolish. That’s called “reaching.”

    Speaking of reaching, it’s too bad those soldiers didn’t commit that crime as Muslim fathers and brothers, and claimed she showed her ankles to a male neighbor. Then it could have been called a “mercy killing,” and we could all praise Allah. In California, they call that “religious diversity.”

  • BW

    Every time I read about this issue it becomes one of “the west has done this and that in the past, therefore they can’t criticize.” I think we KNOW that no nation is perfect, and I’m not trying to excuse anything. The thing is, that shouldn’t stop us from being able to talk about the violence that goes on.

    Have we forgotten about Sinead O’Connor? Muhammad, you might want to read THAT story. We all know how she went on TV, ripped up a picture of the Pope, and was murdered by an enraged Catholic.

    Oh wait, that didn’t happen. And if it did, our entire country AND Catholicism would have condemned that person. I think that’s the type of thing we’re talking about here. We go to great lengths to try to protect certain freedoms, even if they, God forbid, “offend someone.”

    Even Howard Stern was able to do his thing SOMEWHERE. :)

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    BW –

    You claim that the Islamic World has resorted to violence against the followers of Pope Benedict XVI because of his perceived slur against the Prophet (for which he, properly, apologized) whereas Sinead O’Connor, in similar circumstances, went unscathed.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but in almost every part of the Islamic World, Benedict’s speech was greeted by speech (demonstrations, marches, sermons) not violence. In other words, angry Moslems responded by engaging in the same freedom that we hold dear — the freedom to protest.

    You may have heard news accounts of violence that I did not. All I heard about was a handful of arson attacks on Palestinian churches and a nun in Mogadihu who was shot, perhaps in revenge against the Pope, perhaps as part of a warlord feud.

    You insist on being able to talk about “the violence that goes on.” Surely it would be more constructive to celebrate the fact that in this instance almost all of the protests against the Pope were non-violent.

  • kat

    (You may have heard news accounts of violence that I did not. All I heard about was a handful of arson attacks on Palestinian churches and a nun in Mogadihu who was shot, perhaps in revenge against the Pope, perhaps as part of a warlord feud.) Yeah, guys, what’s the big deal–one dead nun and 7 torched churches. No biggie as long as it isn’t 7 torched mosques. That’s not considered violence in the muslim world–just doing what comes naturally and making allah happy.

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    Kat –

    You are right. There is no justification for torching churches and I do not condone it and was not trying to condone it. I condemn arson against any church or mosque.

    My point was a different one…

    BuzzMachine approvingly quotes the observation of the former Archbishop of Canterbury that “the ‘clash of civilisations’ endangering the world was not between Islamist extremists and the West, but with Islam as a whole.”

    Yet in the instance of the Pope’s speech, “Islam as a whole” acted just as you and I and BW and, presumably, BuzzMachine would want it to — answering vitriolic speech with its like, vitriolic speech.

    Carey was wrong in this case. It was only a tiny extreme handful, not the whole, that set fire to those churches on the West Bank.

    As for the dead nun, you assume the warlord feud story has no merit. I have no way of knowing one way or the other.

  • kat

    Jeff Jacoby could not say it any better”f it weren’t so sickening, it would be farcical: A line in the pope’s speech suggests that Islam has a dark history of violence, and offended Muslims vent their displeasure by howling for his death, firebombing churches, and attacking innocent Christians. One of the points Benedict made in his speech at the University of Regensburg was that religious faith untethered by reason can lead to savagery. The mobs denouncing him could hardly have done a better job of proving him right.”
    And “In every case, the pretext for the Muslim rage was the claim that Islam had been insulted. Freedom of speech was irrelevant: While the rioters and those inciting them routinely insult Christianity, Judaism, and other religions, they demand that no one be allowed to denigrate Islam or its prophet. It is a staggering double standard, and too many in the West seem willing to go along with it.”
    Yes, islam has its followers who are willing to overlook any barbaric act. What makes these idiots tick?? I don’t mean muslim followers–I mean the media and all others who shove islamic violence and barbarity under the prayer rug and blame us. Islam has no need to change–they have too many appeasers willing to make excuses for them–poor victimized muslims, islamophobia, and all that horseshit that so many swallow. What a bunch of wimps…moderate muslims and grovelling Americans.
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/20/muslim_violence/

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    Kat–

    On your advice I read Jacoby’s column. Sorry, I am not convinced.

    Concerning the motives behind the nun’s murder in Somalia, the best Jacoby can come up with is that it was “presumably” linked to a local imam’s anti-Papal sermon. No reporting on the circumstances.

    He claimed that “…offended Muslims vent their displeasure by howling for his [Benedict's] death, firebombing churches, and attacking innocent Christians.” He did not quote your number, Kat, that the total number of churches firebombed throughout the entire Islamic World was seven. Single digits might have punctured his hyperbole. Nor did he offer any examples of innocent Christians attacked except for the aforesaid nun, may she rest in peace.

    He criticized “Islamist fanatics” for unleashing “violence, terror and bloodshed” because their faith was “gratuitously affronted.”

    Yes, their faith was gratuitously affronted, and the Pope, to his credit as Jacoby agrees, apologized for the affront. But where was the violence, terror and bloodshed? It was in Jacoby’s brain. Nowhere else.

  • kat

    There were 7 churches torched, If that is not violence in your book, then I feel sorry for you. You truly are out to a lunch of falafal.

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    Kat –

    Of course arson is violence. I myself engaged in hyperbole. That “…in Jacoby’s brain. Nowhere else” line was over the mark and wrong. I apologize to you, to Jacoby and to the Christians of the West Bank. I’ll go out now and eat my crow-falafel.

  • kat

    Andrew–(sorry about the falafal–good comeback:):))I totally agree that I’d rather see muslims demonstrate peacefully than kill, but I don’t think I’d call some of the demonstrations I’ve seen video of, as peaceful. They show a bunch of barbarians inciting muslims to kill a Christian. I’m all for free speech, but not this kind of lunacy. And I’m just plain offended that they would suggest my Pope convert–almost like telling me to convert, and to that I say Screw you, muslims.
    *“If this person were really someone reasonable, he would not agree to remain at his post one minute, but would convert to Islam immediately,” Mohammed Gaddafi told an awards ceremony on Monday evening for an international competition to memorise the Qur’an.

    “We say to the pope – whether you apologise or not is irrelevant, as apologies make no difference to us.”

    Gaddafi junior also hit out at “those Muslims who look for comfort in the words of a non-Muslim”.

    He said Muslims “should not look for charity from the infidel… but should fight Islam’s enemies who attack the faith and the Prophet Muhammad”.

    *British Islamists called for the death of Pope Benedict XVI, outside Westminster Cathedral in London

    *“We shall break the cross and spill the wine. … God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. … God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen,” said the statement.

    *Muslims in Hamas-controlled Gaza have formed an ad hoc terrorist group promising to attack Christian targets to avenge the Pope’s choice of a quotation insinuating that Islam is prone to violence.

    The group, which calls itself the “Army of guidance,” sent an announcement to news agencies based in Gaza saying that “every place relevant to Christians will be a target until the cursed infidel – the Vatican – apologizes to Muslims.”…

    Last Friday, the 1,400 year old St. Perfidious Greek Orthodox church in Gaza was among seven Christian targets burned or vandalized throughout PA-controlled areas….

    *”We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric … “We call on all Islamic Communities across the world to take revenge (Somalia)

    *Influential Islamic leaders across the Middle East are calling for the murder of Pope Benedict XVI after remarks in a speech Tuesday in which he quoted from “an obscure Medieval text referred to some of the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad as ‘evil and inhuman.’”

    *The Mujahedeen Army’s statement vowed, “our minds will not rest until we shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home.”
    and the idiocy goes on–and you call it free speech. If I engaged in such speech against them, I’d be arrested—and ashamed of myself.

  • Eileen

    Muhammad,

    Tell you what, you undergo YOour very own, Islam-prescribed penisectomy (complete with razors and scissors wielded by your father, as in the article kat linked to vis a vis Islamic clitorectomies) and THen we’ll talk about the violence of Islam vs. the West, And the East, South, North, and ALL At The Same Time.

    Okay? I’m talkin’ ISLAMIC BARBARISM in too many countries to count.

    I’m sure you believe in your own penisectomAllah fate – in all ‘fairness’ – while on your way to 72 virgins, eh?

  • Eileen

    Actually, Mo, the penisectomy should really be performed by your MOther in all fairness, eh?

    Are you still gonna try and spit your sweet taqiyya talk to ME now?

  • http://www.myspace.com/arunmarsh Arun Marsh

    “Lord Carey said that Muslims must address “with great urgency” their religion’s association with violence.”

    Does no else here think that the perceived association between islam and violence is more or less a creation of western media?

    And as for only being able to cite “historic” examples of Christian related violence I take it none of you have heard of Northern Ireland where earlier this year a 15 year old Catholic boy was beaten to death by Prodestants.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    The Southern Poverty Law Center’s Hatewatch extensively documents the activities of close to 200 active hate groups in the United States, most of which are radical conservative Christian organizations. While it’s true that the Vatican is no longer burning heretics at the stake, Christian-related violence is hardly a thing of the past.

    As for the penisectomy, I believe that’s called circumcision. And it’s just as barbaric a practice on men as it is medically unnecessary (as is the ultra-Orthodox “custom” of allowing the mohel to suck the incision after the foreskin is cut — what’s your stand on that, Eileen?). In fact female genital mutilation is not motivated by religious dictates but cultural ones — in Sub-Saharan Africa, where the practice is still widespread and open, non-Muslims are just as likely to carry out genital mutilation as Muslims are. No matter what the motivation, however, the act is abhorrent.

  • http://kalipuna.blogspot.com Dr. Mathews

    This topic, while perhaps interesting, nevertheless constitutes a diversion from the more salient and significant issues of the day like the role of US imperialism (as Mark Twain would call it) in Iraq and the Israeli devastation of Lebanon.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Body count after September 11

    Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a “climate of violence” have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim.

    BBC reported almost two years ago on 29 October, 2004. If you include Afghanistan in that what would be the final number in 2006.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

    The worldwide update of reported civilian deaths in the Iraq war and occupation.

    Minimum 43269 Maximum 48046 Dead in Iraq

    General Tommy Frank said, “we don’t do body counts”.

    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

  • kat

    Mo– how many civilians are dead in Darfur and Nigeria?? Just curious?
    Also–in Iraq are the majority of deaths due to muslamic terrorists killing civilians or what?
    I’m confused–100,000 extra deaths in iraq but the total is 48,000 tops. How do you get those numbers to jive?

  • Ravo

    Arun Marsh says: I take it none of you have heard of Northern Ireland where earlier this year a 15 year old Catholic boy was beaten to death by Prodestants.

    What none of us have ever heard of is Jesus Christ committing a violent act or leaving open ended ongoing directives containing violence in order that his followers spread the Christian faith.

    These moral equivalency arguments are so tiresome.

    Those who beat that boy cannot legitimately say they did it in the name of Christ.

  • Eileen

    Jersey,

    No, the concept I conveyed was a penisectomy to enhance the sexual pleasure of muslim men. Don’t you think they should take care of themselves the same way they do their little girls and women – all non-violent and all – in the manner of their faith? Seems only fair.

    “Interviewer: So what about the girl’s opinion?

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: What do you mean?

    Interviewer: What if she says: I don’t want to be circumcised. What happens then?

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: If a girl says she doesn’t want it, she’s free. No problem.

    Interviewer: Is this what happens in reality?

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: I have no relation to reality. I am talking about how things should be.

    Interviewer: You are a religious sheik, from Al-Azahar University. You cannot say you have no relation to reality.

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: Reality is a mistake, we must rectify it.

    [...]

    In Egypt we have four and a half million spinsters. The definition of a spinster is a woman who has reached 30, without ever receiving a marriage proposal. We have a spinster problem in the Arab world, and the last thing we want is for them to be sexually aroused. Circumcision of the girls who need it makes them chaste, dignified, and pure.” Google it.

    [Note the misuse of the term 'circumcism', just like Jersey tried to do.]

    For the LLL’s and jihadists/their apologists here:

    Your continued lies, obfuscation, denial, and deranged defense of radical Islam and it’s barbarism means either one of two things. You are either,

    1. So hungry for power and obsessed with your hatred of GWB that you are intentionally blind to reality, or, you’re

    2. The taqiyya talking enemy.

    Either way, it’s not looking good for you. Anyone who thinks the West and the World is going to SUBMIT to Islam has gotta be stark raving mad. Keep talking, Islamonuts, the world wakes up a bit more every time you do… That’s right, the other four BIllion of us are dialing in and ‘recognizing’ your evil, in spite of all efforts to create a new kind of Satanic reality.

    I invite all fence sitters to choose sides.

    The name of our enemy is ISLAM.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Millions of people have been killed by the West around the world.

    Here is a very short list for your review.

    1- The Holocaust
    2- Vietnam
    3- Iraq
    4- Afghanistan
    5- Native American Genocide
    6- Australian – Aboriginals Genocide
    7- Japan – use of atomic bombs against civilians
    8- Russia
    9- World War I
    10- World War II
    11- World War III – The West is getting ready for the World War III but it is too late. Asia is too strong think of China, India, and Pakistan.

    Read More …

    http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html

  • Eileen

    Oh geez, make that circumcision. Is that a buried-up-to-the-neck, stoning offense too, like the OFense of BEing raped for muslim women and little girls?

    Yah, Mo, bugga bugga.

    I’ll bow to your Satanic prophet when? Never in all eternity and beyond.

  • Eileen

    The name of our enemy is ISLAM.

  • http://www.myspace.com/arunmarsh Arun Marsh

    the name of my enemy is ignorance and intollerance

  • Eileen

    Clearly you’ve chosen Islam, then, Arun.

    Pity.

    ENEMY, thy name is ISLAM.

  • http://www.myspace.com/arunmarsh Arun Marsh

    I haven’t chosen anything i’ve just grown to respect other people. you have sadly grown to believe everything you see on Television.

    what you are saying is inflammetory and grotesque

  • Eileen

    Grotesque? Then go talk to ISLAM, facts about which I cite. That WAS, in fact, my point, thank you very much.

    I respect non-barbarians greatly, Arun.

    And I don’t watch tv much.

    But I’ve read a great deal about our enemy, ISLAM. I invite you to do so as well.

    The world is waking up. Wake up, Arun.

  • Jim Karna

    Eileen – are acts of barbarism perpetrated by the US and UK in Iraq (DU munitions, Guantanamo, Abu Graihb, Maza-i-sharif…) acceptable? Is it OK for the US and UK to ignore the geneva convention and the UN declaration of human rights? Are muslim lives worth less than American or British lives?

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Why is it that practically everyone here only sees evil in the ‘other side’?

    The list that Mohammed points out is mostly true…but it treats the entire west as monolithic. And I’d say that Japan is not “West”. Their actions in WWII came from the East.

    Let’s talk the whole picture, then and add these…

    China’s Cultural Revolution
    Khmer Rouge in Cambodia
    Iraq attacking Iran, cauising a million deaths
    Saddam’s attacking Kurds and Shia (and for that matter Sunnis as well)
    Turkish genocide against the Armenians
    Zaire/Congo
    Rwanda
    The Lord’s Army in Uganda
    Aparthied in South Africa
    Terrorism in Algeria
    Warlords in Somalia starving to death 300,000
    the Ethiopian famine that was caused in great part by the then Communist government
    atrocities in Burma
    military dictatorships in Latin America
    practically every Haitan government

    Hmmm…human rights abuses…all over the world. Not just the West. Not just Muslim countries.

  • Bug

    Just curious: Has any of the christians who has written here ever read Koran? OR any of te Muslims here ever read the Bible? (Or any holy book of Christianity for that matter?)

    Because I think it would be incredibly wise to have proper information from the truest sources about either religion (e.i the holy books) before shitting up ideas like ‘Islam is this and Christianity is that’!!

    I am sure that Holy books of Islam and Christianity would be found equally enlightening and guiding, as well as equally gruesome and violent by contemporary minds.

    It is in every religion to be understood one way or another, to be bent and cut to suit certain purposes. What really counts is how it is practiced. How its followers choose to follow it. And why.

    The answers of why would put the Protestant thugs that killed a Catholic boy side by side with the Muslims that killed the nun. The Inquisition that burned people at stake would be close friends with the imam that orders the stoning of a woman buried shoulder-deep in earth.

    Do not go into the piss-race over which religion is more ruthless than the other. Go into the matter of why human beings conceive their religions the way they do and what changes that. That might get you somewhere.

    And for the record, if there will ever be a ‘clash’, it won’t be the clash of opposites. It will be clash of those that will want to clash. In other words it will be a ‘clash’ of the similars. Those that trash each other here, don’t. You have so much in common.

    Best regards to all.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

    Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

    Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

    Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

    http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/09/war-to-colonise-hearts-and-minds_19.html

  • kat

    And Christianity came from the teachings of Jesus which are about love. But because this is in the Old Testament it gives muslims the right to do the barbaric things that they do today. Gotcha, Mo. Now I understand. Islam must still be in the Old Testament mode. I think it’s time to reform that violent religion.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Chris Stanley, a professor of theology at St Bonaventure University in western New York state said, “There is the angry violent god of the Old Testament, but there is plenty of language in the New Testament that portrays God as a violent judge, and some that can be taken that human violence is something that God would ordain,”.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bible-koran-are-violent-but-read-between-lines/2006/05/26/1148524886079.html

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    “Archbishop Bernard Law of Boston has resigned amid accusations that he covered up paedophilia by Roman Catholic priests in his diocese.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2572517.stm

  • Ravo

    excerpts from Mark Durie:

    “[...]
    It is not difficult to find examples of religious violence in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. When Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, he was instructed by God to destroy all who dwelled within its walls.

    The New Testament takes a completely different approach.

    Throughout the New Testament there is a systematic rejection of religious violence. The key to this is Jesus’ message that his kingdom was spiritual and not political. Jesus explicitly and repeatedly condemns the use of force to achieve his goals: “Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)…”

    [.. for the moral-equivalencers:]

    “The New Testament’s teachings on the state continue to sustain the more than 300 million believers who live in more than 60 countries where Christians are persecuted. In none of these countries has persecution resulted in Christian terrorism or violent Christian insurgencies aimed at overthrowing civil authorities. ”

    ________________

    Jesus lived His life as an example of how the Scriptures of the New Testament are to be interpreted.

    Would not how Mohammed lived life also be considered the example of the correct interpretation of Islamic Scriptures.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Liberals will prevail all around the world. There is no place for neoconservatives or old-conservatives.

  • kat

    When Islam sure as hell can’t accept liberalism so it will have to die.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Muhammad

    To me, you bring up several legitmate pionts. The amount dead in Vietnam (although from what I understand that was from both sides, not just those fighting us). The passages in the Old Testament. To Ravo, I’d say that the Old Testament is still Christian text. It may be pre-Jesus, but it is still Christian.

    But Muhammad, what I (and I presume many ‘Westerners’ can’t seem to quite grasp is how so many leaders – political and relgious – get so upset at the Pope’s comments (calling for his assassination), or cartoons, or Dutch films, etc., but they aren’t in full force condeming the Islamic government in Sudan that supports the Janjaweed that kill fellow Muslims by the hundreds of thousands – because they are black. Why wasn’t there an outcry against the forced famine of Muslim on Muslim, claiming 300,000+ in Somalia in the early 1990′s? What about the 200,000 killed in Algeria in the 1990′s as well with the battles between religious fanatics and the government?

    For that matter, why aren’t you blogging about that?

    You see, you think that the Western media didn’t report about that gang rape of that poor Iraqi girl and the murder of her family. But the media did report on it. And the alleged purportators were arrested and some could get the death penalty.

    Regarding the Catholic Church and pedophelia, that whole thing has tremendously damaged the institution, both its reputation and its financial condition.

    Yes, each religion has its bad parts. Yes, each religion has had its history of violence, political abuses, horrible leaders. True.

    So, how do you feel about the Sudanese government? The fact that the Iraqi blames the sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia on Jews? The killing of the nun? The assassination of Hariri – most likely done by Syria? What do you think of Saddam Hussein’s long bloody legacy and his slaughtering of the Shiites in the south or the gassing of the Kurds in the north?

    Why not blog about that?

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    The western media is doing an excellent job to dehumanise Muslims by covering all topics suggested in the above post.

    Why waste time on something already suffering from over-reporting?

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Because the slaughter of 200,000 plus African blacks Muslims is an outrage.

    Yes, so is the gang rape of a young Iraqi girl and the murder of her family.

    The Western media doesn’t cover issues such as Darfur to dehumanize Muslims. They cover it because it is a) happening RIGHT NOW, b) being sponsored by an established government, c) because it is ongoing…not just one incident (like 9/11 or the gang rape), and d) the scene of so many innocents dying horrible deaths.

    It is not the fault of Islam that this is happening. Just as Christianity itself was not behind the Holocaust. But it IShappening.

    And for that matter, the Western media should probably cover it more. It’s my guess that the reason they don’t is because the victims are black Africans.

    You have mentioned that the Western media doesn’t cover or care about when bad things happen to darker skinned peoples who aren’t Christian or Jewish. Well, here’s your opportunity to blog about it.

    Note: I should blog about it too. I’ll hold myself to the same standard.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    The lives of Africans have been regarded less valuable for long time. They have been victims of uncountable crimes such as slavery and colonisation.

    They should stand up for their rights.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/07/the_statistics_of_war.html

  • kat

    The lives of Africans are regarded as less valuable by some TODAY, such as in the case in Darfur, and Saudis and others love Black slaves. Slavery is alive and well among muslims. They spend time condemning slavery by others, while continuing its practice in their bizarre world.
    And the raping of the one Iraqi girl was a tragedy, as is the daily raping of hundreds of Nigerian and Sudanese little girls and women by muslim militias.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Yes, Muhammad, yes. Slavery and colonization. Very bad things indeed.

    But let’s admit what the worst of it is from, shall we? Because it seems you are very quick to cast blame on the West.

    It’s not from Western imperialism. And it’s not from Islam. It is from tribalism. Rwanda, Uganda, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Zaire, Somalia, Chad, and of course, The Sudan.

    But since it seems as if you are incapable to condemn or blame the Islamic led governmnet that supports the genocidal Janjaweed, I will.

    They are scum, they aren’t true Muslims, they aren’t one with God, they are a disgrace to humanity, and the moment they die, they’re headed straight to hell for all eternity.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Anti Pakistani and anti Muslim lobby is very strong in the West. They are in both far right and far-left. They will not leave any chance to defame Muslims any where in the world, although, overwhelming majority of Muslims is not practicing religion.

    Muslims are breaking the basic principles of Islam in their daily lives. These people cannot be regarded as Muslims from a theological point of view. But this is not enough to please far-right and far-left lobby.

    For example practicing Muslims cannot use contraception. That means the rate of population growth should be extremely high in countries like Pakistan and women should end up having fourteen or more babies, but this not the case.

    Muslim cannot involve in usury that is charging or paying interest on financial transactions. Guess! What type of financial system we have in Pakistan? It is similar like any other Western country.

    But this is not enough to stop poisonous propaganda. It will continue at any cost. They will keep on propagating stereotypical images of Muslims.

  • kat

    With suicide bombings spreading from Iraq to Afghanistan, the Pentagon has tasked intelligence analysts to pinpoint what’s driving Muslim after Muslim to do the unthinkable.
    Their preliminary finding is politically explosive: it’s their “holy book” the Quran after all, according to intelligence briefings.
    In public, the U.S. government has made an effort to avoid linking the terrorist threat to Islam and the Quran while dismissing suicide terrorists as crazed heretics who pervert Islamic teachings.

    “The terrorists distort the idea of jihad into a call for violence and murder,” the White House maintains in its recently released “National Strategy for Combating Terrorism” report.

    But internal Pentagon briefings show intelligence analysts have reached a wholly different conclusion after studying Islamic scripture and the backgrounds of suicide terrorists. They’ve found that most Muslim suicide bombers are in fact students of the Quran who are motivated by its violent commands – making them, as strange as it sounds to the West, “rational actors” on the Islamic stage.

    In Islam, it is not how one lives one’s life that guarantees spiritual salvation, but how one dies, according to the briefings. There are great advantages to becoming a martyr. Dying while fighting the infidels in the cause of Allah reserves a special place and honor in Paradise. And it earns special favor with Allah.

    “Suicide in defense of Islam is permitted, and the Islamic suicide bomber is, in the main, a rational actor,” concludes a recent Pentagon briefing paper titled, “Motivations of Muslim Suicide Bombers.”

    Suicide for Allah a ‘win-win’

    “His actions provide a win-win scenario for himself, his family, his faith and his God,” the document explains. “The bomber secures salvation and the pleasures of Paradise. He earns a degree of financial security and a place for his family in Paradise. He defends his faith and takes his place in a long line of martyrs to be memorialized as a valorous fighter.

    “And finally, because of the manner of his death, he is assured that he will find favor with Allah,” the briefing adds. “Against these considerations, the selfless sacrifice by the individual Muslim to destroy Islam’s enemies becomes a suitable, feasible and acceptable course of action.”

    The briefing – produced by a little-known Pentagon intelligence unit called the Counterintelligence Field Activity, or CIFA – cites a number of passages from the Quran dealing with jihad, or “holy” warfare, martyrdom and Paradise, where “beautiful mansions” and “maidens” await martyr heroes. In preparation for attacks, suicide terrorists typically recite passages from six surahs, or chapters, of the Quran: Baqura (Surah 2), Al Imran (3), Anfal (8), Tawba (9), Rahman (55) and Asr (103).

    Particularly 9:111, which guarantees Paradise to those who “kill and are killed” for Allah.
    http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/osint/4260/1

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Nationalism is the reason for resistance against American aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan.

  • kat

    And what is the reason for resistance against Black Darfurians?

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Tribalism

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    What is the reason for not helping the people of New Orleans?

    Racism.

  • kat

    Didn’t know janjawid was a wahabist tribe.
    Blame the ‘white’ mayor then. Time he got off his ass and did what mayors in other devastated areas are doing. They managed to rebuild the dome pretty quickly. They received billions of charity money–use it instead of whining and expecting it to be handed to you . Quit acting like a welfare city. Many areas in Florida and Louisiana have been hit as badly. They picked up and rebuilt.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    It is always a fault of someone black or coloured. This is why KKK is so strong in the USA.

  • kat

    Is jangawid a rribe in Darfur?

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    This is ridiculous.

    First of all, it would help if Kat and Muhammad backed off a bit.

    Muhammad, you show your ignorance of the United States when you say that the KKK is very strong here. That’s a boatload of crap. They were once popular in certain areas of the South and smaller areas elsewhere and their last bit of strength was eighty years ago. They’re largely hated by most Americans.

    You’re pointing out New Orleans. From what I remember, just over 1000 died. Most from the storm or the immediate aftermath. Most Americans were horrified as to what we saw on TV and had nothing but sympathy for the people who suffered – regardless of their color. Keying solely on racism is like blaming Islam for the earthquake Pakistan recently suffered.

    OK, the government may have acted sooner if the victims were all white and rich. But maybe not. All three levels of government failed. Federal. State. Local. Partisans seem to pick a cause for failure and then assign blame to whom they want. The most blameworthy was Mother Nature.

    Muhammad, 300,000 to 500,000 have died in the Darfur region. Because of government sponsored genocide. I have a sneaking suspicion that if the US intervened, and saved lives, you’d see that at ‘aggression against Muslims or people who are dark skinned.’

    I say let’s not concern ourselves what color the victims are or how they worship their God. Let’s put put a stop to it and put the blame on those that are behind it — the government of Sudan. More dead there than in Iraq and Afghaninstan. Can you handle that fact?

    To Kat. It would probably help if you took a step back and stopped attacking Islam as a whole. It is Muhammad’s religion and perhaps he treasures it, just like many Christians find their religion to be central in their lives.

    And I don’t believe that New Orleans people are whining. The devastation was widespread and destroyed a tremendous amount of infrastructure of a city of something like 600,000.

    And Kat, I think I know who you are. If you are who I think you are, it’s a small world.

  • kat

    I hope you are not a stalker. Or are you threatening me or something.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Good God no. Not a stalker. Not someone who would threaten anyone. I thought you might be someone I’ve meet through an online networking group regarding marketing…and this person has this blog:

    http://www.katablog.com/index.cfm

    Very conservative. Not much for Katrina victims in some ways. Uses the work “Kat”. Connected to conservative websites, just like you.

    Please don’t worry.

  • http://www.irish-criminology.com seamus breathnach

    If Lord Carey concerned himself more with Christian violence , either historically or in the class rooms, instead of siddling up to the Infallible One,he might be truer to, and of greater benefit to, the Protestant heritage.

    In the meantime, could he use his privileges to serve mankind by promoting just one single undertaking.

    Might I mention the fact that when children have to call religious priests ‘Father’ ,or, in the case of Nuns, ‘Sister’ ,they are automatically cast in a thoroughly dangerous and , sometimes, predatory relationship.

    Perhaps he could prevail upon the RC Church, to augment their conviction and their concern to reduce the tide of further clerical pedophelia, to agree to remove this archaic privilege of the Ancien Regime. More unlikely ‘Fathers’ and ‘Sisters’ there could not possibly be!

    Surely, the word of God can live on without it!

    Seamus Breathnach
    Dublin

    http://www.irish-criminology.com

  • Non-muslims

    The islamist thinks that the rest of the world has no memory.
    Muhammad and his tugs conquered the arabian peninsula, israel, persia and whole middle east with swords and blood. Those areas were inhabited formerly by Christians and Non-Muslims. Furthermore the caliph and the islamic empire slaughtered many non-muslims up to North Africa, Byzantine empire and part of Europe until the Christians stood up against them. Also the islamic kingdom from central asia (ex-mongol) butchered the previous peaceful buddhist kingdoms around central asia (eg: current afghanistan) and went east bloodily to conquer hindustani kingdoms around current India. These tugs also widespread to further east to south east asia which is formerly inhabited by peaceful non-muslims. Now these remained non-muslims in those areas live under pressure in all aspects as minority. If the majority is non-muslim, the islamists are trying to revolt or change the goverment bit by bit to be an islamic country. These scoundrels have never been satisfied until all people in this world are bound to sharia, islamic rules/ways or islamic empire in the end. So please muslims, do not fool yourselves and us, the non-muslims with your twisted words, double standards or any propaganda. Please study history and facts!!!

  • Non-muslims

    I do not post my name because I am a non-muslim (NOT a westerner) from a muslim country where my head can be cut off if I am found. Just remember where is the justice if there is a mass murder on non-muslims. The islamist is very clever to twist the words. Where is justice when around 2 million armenian were slaughtered by turkish islamists??? The colapse of persian empire due to bloody muhammad’s tugs??? Where is amnesty international??? The islamist is very very exclusive. They have their own organizations for almost everything from crescent (competing with red cross) to muslim intelectual organizations till the world class “islamic organization conference” (IOC) (competing with United Nations)
    The history and facts say that the islamist will not satisfy till all the people in this world become muslims or if not, non-muslim must be bound to islamic rule/way, sharia or islamic nasty goverment.
    Thank you, I do not want that to happen. I have tasted it here…

  • ciaib

    I know Islam is going through a lot of bad publicity right now and the tide of those against this religion is riding high. But I have to remind you all of one thing and that is winning the war against our one and only enemy SATAN (shaitaan). He challenged God that he would lead astray the children of Adam pbuh, in simple words you and me. And I think he is doing a good job. I don’t want to take sides here.
    And all of us have until our last breath to find out who is the God who created us. don’t over complicate things and spew poison and use rash language because YOU are going to be held accountable for everything on the day of Judgement. And by God, nobody and let me repeat my friends no body is going to bear your burden. There are no lies, no shortcuts on that day so be ready for that day. I am instructed by God to speak in beautiful words when I am calling people and I know I have not done my best. Forgive me for my shortcomings. It makes me wonder how all the prophets did such a beautiful selfless job of calling people to the real din (religion) of God.