The Pope wimps out

It is high time that religious and political leaders call out Islamic leaders for not calling out Islamisits for their use of violence in the name of religion. The Pope did so last week but then promptly wimped out, apologizing for hurting anyone’s feelings. Didn’t know the Pope was from California. Feelings? Since when did the Pope turn PC?

Media have not helped. They have quoted one line the Pope quoted and put that forward as an insult to Islam. Well, far be it from me to defend the Pope who does not defend himself, but read that line — from Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus in 1391 — in context and it is an important statement about both violence and rationality and religion:

The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: “There is no compulsion in religion”. According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels”, he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”. The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. “God”, he says, “is not pleased by blood – and not acting reasonably is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…”.

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent.

Transcending law, even reason.

I think it’s ironic that the Pope then goes on to try to expand the definition of reason beyond that accepted in the West because he wants to portray religion as reasonable.

We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith.

And he seems to be arguing that there — under a larger umbrella of reason — there is a meeting point for the religions to meet. I would say that defines optimism in our age.

So the Pope’s point was not to attack Islamic jihad but to use that as an illustration of fundamental differences. Still, he did attack violence in the name of religion. And I believe he should have stood by that firmly, for that is the discussion we must have. But instead, he wimped. And I believe that Islamic leaders should be standing firmly in the same spot, condemning violence — political violence, let’s be honest — in the name of their religion. But instead, they whine.

Where the hell are the moral leaders for our age?

: LATER: We should dread the aftermath. A Turkish paper reports that a church in the West Bank was attacked. Make that two churches. The Guardian has a picture of angry Muslims in India burning the Pope in effigy. Is this the sequel to the Danish cartoons? Let’s hope not. There are a lot more Catholics and Christians in the world to fight than there are Danes. But do note the terribly irony: The response to words condemning violence is violence.

: The Times writes a simplistic editorial calling for the Pope’s apology. But German Chancellor Angela Merkel defends her Landsman:

“What Benedict XVI emphasized was a decisive and uncompromising renunciation of all forms of violence in the name of religion,” she said.

Yes, and it is tragic that others do not join in that renunciation.

: MEANWHILE: In Australia:

The Howard government yesterday challenged the spiritual leaders of the nation’s Muslim community to reject terrorism.

In a firm address, Andrew Robb, Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, told a conference of Australian imams in Sydney that they had a responsibility to “quarantine Australia from the extremist elements who are tormenting the world, masquerading in the name of Islam”.

: Says the Sunday Times of London, God bless them:

The clash of civilisations is not between Christianity and Islam, it is between nations that encourage religious diversity and those which practise religious intolerance. It is between those who favour open debate and those who think free speech is anathema. The Pope may or may not have known what a hornets’ nest he was stirring up. Even if he did, there was nothing inappropriate, within context, in what he said.

The Vatican has said he is very sorry his speech caused such offence to Muslims. That is fine but it should not go further than that. He should certainly not be pushed into withdrawing his remarks. As in the case of the Danish cartoons, Muslim zealots are trying to impose their restrictions of free expression on the West. Mindful as we should be of religious sensitivities, that cannot be allowed to happen.

: And meanwhile in Iraq:

As security was beefed up around Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday night, the Mujahideen’s Army movement in Iraq threatened to carry out a suicide attack against the Pope in revenge for his comments about Islam and jihad.

On a website used by rebel movements in Iraq, a message posted by the Mujahideen’s Army said members of the organization would “smash the crosses in the house of the dog from Rome.”

As the Pope was saying….

: LATER STILL: Glenn Reynolds has a major roundup of opinion on the Pope.

  • thedude

    Its time society calls our ALL religions. Haven’t they caused enough damage.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    Jeff:
    I think a debate with Sam Harris would be instructive. Since you both have blogs, perhaps you can set up something.

    Even a point-counterpoint on your respective sites would be good enough.

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    This post, itself, seems–shall we say?–lacking in context, too.

    The Vicar of Rome makes a passing reference to the thoughts of a Byzantine emperor in an address concerning the role of Theology departments in universities, the central role of Greek philosophy in Christian doctrine, and the false dichotomy between reason and faith that arises from Kantian systems of Enlightenment thought.

    In that off-topic mention of Manuel II, the Roman prelate makes a tendentious reference to vague “experts” that the Prophet Mohammed’s instruction–“There is no compulsion in religion”–was later superseded. Then the Pontiff goes out of his way to quote the emperor’s insult against Islam–“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman…”–that he himself acknowledges represents “startling brusqueness.”

    Far be it for me, too, to defend the Pope…

    …but if I had been quoted worldwide as apparently endorsing a C13th Christian emperor’s slur against the Prophet…

    …and quoted as citing unnamed sources to say that one of the central tenets of Islam should not be adhered to because the Prophet said it when he was “powerless and under threat”…

    …and furthermore if I had made these comments in passing in a speech that was intended to be about university politics, Hellenism and Immanuel Kant…

    …then I, too, would apologize. And I would not appreciate the BuzzMachine taunting me for “wimping out.”

  • kat

    The Pope did not apologize for speaking the truth–he only apologized for hurting muslim feelings because they don’t like the truth to be spoken–that islam condones violence and is not peaceful. He did not retract his comments–he just proved that there can be no dialogue with muslims–because they can’t accept honest criticism without ranting, raving, killing, and fatwahing. They have called for the Pope’s death–like they did for Rushdie’s, the cartoonists’, Van Gogh’s, all Jews, all infidels, etc..

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Pope Benedict XVI is a former Hitler youth who deserted in April 1944. However, he did not join ani-Natzi resistance. His anti-Islam remarks are interesting to watch because of his past. He also opposed Turkey’s bid to join European Union (EU).

    If Turkey is left out of the EU then it will have no choice but to join an Asian union. The union of Asian Muslims can be called caliphate in a cultural sense or an Asian union in a secular sense. The name does not make any difference. The main goal is the prosperity of Asian Muslims.

    Read More …

    Shadows of the Great Game

  • kat

    The Pope was forced into Naziism like you are forced into islamism. Did you know Mohammad, about the Nazi roots of today’s jihad? Ever heard of Amin Al-Husseini??
    http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/

  • Pingback: sonitus.org » Blog Archive » The Pope wimps out

  • William Sanchez

    Thin-skinned Muslims, which apparently all Islamic people are, appear to wait continually for any statement about them to use as an excuse to react violently. Our response to Islamic violence should be made directly to all Muslim leaders: You have the power and the responsibility to stop this violence, and if you do not it is obvious that you support it. Muslim leaders foster such violence, including terrorism, by not acting to stop it. Fostering violence and terrorism is a crime, and each individual committing this crime should be arrested and held accountable as accessories to the violence.
    Muslims cannot continue to claim that their God is the same God that Christians and Hebrews worship. As a Christian I know that whoever it is that the Muslims worship is not the God I worship, and Muslims know it! They are fooling no one!

  • Eileen

    Nope, the Pope didn’t “wimp out”. Expressing sorrow that the raving lunatics felt they needed to express their madness by burning, swarming, issuing death threats and the like yet again is not the same thing as apologizing for one’s words.

    If I were a global manufacturer of Papal effigies I’d be rich about now. Or a maker of signs in English which state “Death to America”, or..

    Listen in tomorrow when Pope Benedict amplifies. I’m quite confident he’s up to the task of confronting the Beast of Islam. There are billions more non-Catholic infidels across the globe who are willing to stand next to him, too.

    Inasmuch as Islam insists on attempting to accomplish their weenie Caliphate through 7th century style beheadings, suicide bombings, all manner of killing innocents across the globe And paid-for nukes, I say, bring it on.

    [If you were linking to that holier-than-the-Pope NYT rag piece which DIrected him to apologize - SNort - Jeff, I didn't bother to click on it. Unfortunately I already read an excerpt of it quoted elsewhere. Aren't they shutting down yet another facility in Jersey?]

  • Eileen

    William,

    It’s well beyond time to deal with the Clerics, who foment jihad and whip up their minions every Friday.

    I’m beyond sick of the insanity being perpetrated upon us by ISLAM. Enough already!

  • Chuck

    Boy did you get this one wrong Jeff. The Pope did not apologize for his statement as the story you linked to says.

    I think he correctly expressed sorrow that these critics were upset. That’s no where near an apology for what he said. The story quotes the Vatican release, “The Vatican said Pope Benedict XVI “sincerely regrets” Muslims had been offended by his quoting Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II’s remarks that Muhammad had brought “things only evil and inhuman.” Where in there does it say he apologizes for his statement.

    I think you’ve found your moral leader of our time!

  • kat

    Adherents of the’ non-violent’ religion have killed a 70 year old woman for their prophet–spreading hate with the sword.
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,20429245,00.html

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    Perhaps Sam Harris was listening, here is his response to the Pope’s remarks:

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060916_sam_harris_rottweiler_barks/

  • http://permagnus.com/ Oskar Syahbana

    Jeff, I think the point here is that all religion follower has ALWAYS been violent in the past. Be it Moslem or Christians or Jews for that matter. We, moslem, hate it when someone is name-calling our prophet. That doesn’t mean the religion its self is violent, does it?

    We never questioned (let alone insult) the holyness of Jesus because he is one of our great prophet. So of course the name-calling of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will be dealt in the same manner.

    However, I admire the courage the Pope shown by revealing what he truly means. The media doesn’t help either by only half-quoting The Pope

  • kat

    Sam Harris sounds uncannily like Hitler. Hitler voiced some of the same garbage that Harris does. He must be a scholar of Mein Kampf.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    There are more than sixteen thousand murders in the USA every year. It has failed to protect its own citizens. Guns are easily available to killers in the USA. No one has tried to stop the availability of guns. Therefore, it is not the value of life that matters.

    Trillions of dollars have been lost on the corporate sponsored wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA must be spending same amount of resources, which it has spent on these illegal wars, to protect its citizens murdered every year. But, this is not the case.

    On the other hand, people of New Orleans are still waiting for suitable housing after hurricane Katrina.

    There must be a better way to control violent people instead of waging illegal wars.

    Read More …

    Shadows of the Great Game

  • kat

    Oskar–you call me an infidel. You call the Jews sons of pigs and monkeys. You tried to assassinate the former Pope. You have burned over 100 Christian churches in Nigeria. You behead people who accept Jesus and turn from Islam. This week you killed a Christian convert in Mogadishu for refusing to chant koranic verses. Today you shot a 70 year old nun in the back for being Catholic. We don’t break out in little assholes and shit all over the place when Muslim imams characterize Christianity as polytheistic. By ‘you’ I mean muslims because in your post you professed to speak for them. And you are not violent??

  • kat

    Well, Muhammad, there is gun control in Canada, and it did not stop some freakazoid from toting three guns into a college in Montreal and mowing down 20 people.
    But if you know of a better way to control violent people, let’s start with Darfur….before the genocide comes to fruition.

  • http://dilloncommunications.com/blog/ Chris

    From a communications standpoint, the Vatican has miscalculated. As long as one Imam continues to take offence, this issue will continue to fester.

  • kat

    I wrote a letter to the Pope and begged him not to capitulate to these screaming, rampaging hypocrites who go nuts at the slightest provocation, and demand apologies, but who never apologize for their misdeeds, but assume the poor victim status and thus excuse their bloodletting atrocities. Wonder what the people in Darfur did to deserve the treatment they are receiving.
    I don’t give a rat’s ass if one imam is offended–I’m offended that a nun was shot in the back by cowards. I’m offended that the world’s imam’s haven’t condemned the rampages, the burning of churches, etc. I’m offended that muslims take offence for what they consider disrespectful of poopbah, but had no problem using the Church of Nativity’s altar as a toilet and the Bible as toilet paper. Cry me a river, but as far as I am concerned, I will respect muslims when they learn to show respect. I won’t be ordered to respect those who have not earned respect.

  • C Tang

    The mix of headlines the last four days induces first confusion and then depression — there is no longer time nor room for nuance in public discussion. The Pope quotes a 14th century source in a way that is critical of Islam and five churches are burned, a nun is shot, and the general public seems to say “well, he was a bit critical, it seemed.”

    Islam is viewed as practiced by a violent child, predictably enraged at the slightest offence, so when Iran criticizes Catholicism, it is expected; when the Pope says something potentially critical, churches burn, a woman dies and people say, it is expected. In the face of attempts to bomb planes and burn churches, Soros criticizes Bush for being like Hitler and the U.S. for sliding toward Nazi-ism. So, I see churches burning, a nun killed, the Pope apologizing, and Soros fearing the Hitler-Bush. It is like we are blind.

    I think I would be ashamed if I were a practicing Muslim that I am so patronized by other adults to the extent that no action on my part can ever be discussed with any hint of critique because others fear I will kill them or burn their house. As Oskar says, it was critical of the Prophet — of course we will try to kill you and burn your churches. Of course.

    Anyone who feels open discussion coupled with the chance of firebombing if a comment is out of line will, apparently, much enjoy the faith and practice of Islam. If you say something — or quote someone else saying something — that can be taken as critical of the Prophet, of course we will burn your house down. Of course. We hate those comments, as Oskar points out, so don’t make them and avoid getting shot. Ok? Clear? Thanks, Oskar. Love to have you over for an evenings chat sometime.

    As Muhammad points out, the REAL crimes are in the U.S. — guns for sale, Katrina victims, Bush-Hitler, Soros fear of Nazi-ism, shooting deaths in the thousands. A living hell, as he well notes. Who would want to live here? Who can stand the fear, the danger, the guns, the deaths, the Nazi jack-boot of oppression? Look East — paradise.

  • Stacy

    It’s important to remember that when this so-called ‘religion of peace’ is not rioting in the streets and killing poor, little-old ladies they are absolutely horrible in the their treatment of women…women are property. Women are killed by their own families in honor killings. Women can’t vote in many countries. Women are stoned to death for sex outside of marriage. Women have their sexual organs mutilated to keep them faithful to their husbands. Women can’t travel outside the house alone….

    Where are the feminists through all of this? Why isn’t every freedom loving person screaming the truth about Islam. It is evil, oppressive and needs to be put down…..

    It drives me crazy that no one stands up for the victims of this monstrous religion…….

  • MlR

    I wouldn’t be too tough on him. As someone said somewhere else, we Westerners often forget just how precarious the position is of Christians in other countries. The Pope has their safety as a responsibility as well, and must take into account that they will pay the price for Muslim attempts to protest their non-violence with violence.

    Pope Benedict XVI is a former Hitler youth who deserted in April 1944. However, he did not join ani-Natzi resistance. His anti-Islam remarks are interesting to watch because of his past. He also opposed Turkey’s bid to join European Union (EU).

    If Turkey is left out of the EU then it will have no choice but to join an Asian union. The union of Asian Muslims can be called caliphate in a cultural sense or an Asian union in a secular sense. The name does not make any difference. The main goal is the prosperity of Asian Muslims.”

    Personally, I don’t care if Turkey pays the price for the behavior of its coreligionists, perhaps then they’ll see it as their problem, as opposed to our problem.

    In the meantime, I’ll quake in my boots at the resurgence of the caliphate.

  • kat

    Stacy–no one stands up because it is deemed politically incorrect. So they just look the other way and claim all religions are equal. We must respect their culture even if it involves the things you listed.
    However, here is another guy with some balls and it should bring the lunatics out in full force.
    http://www.andnetwork.com/index?service=direct/0/Home/story&sp=l51985

  • MlR

    “Pope Benedict XVI is a former Hitler youth who deserted in April 1944. However, he did not join ani-Natzi resistance. His anti-Islam remarks are interesting to watch because of his past.”

    On second thought, you’ve painted an interesting picture. Didn’t join the anti-Nazi resistance? Well, by George, he could have been a Muslim! In this context, yeah his “anti-Islam” remarks are interesting to watch.

  • Stacy

    kat,

    Thanks for the link…it is because of their silence and their fanatical anti-Bush insanity that I no longer call myself a liberal or a supporter of N.O.W. And what about gays? If the nutty moslems took over, they’d be the first to be beheaded….liberals have lost all sense of right and wrong and any balls whatsoever….

    Our country and the west in general should be pulling together to put a stop to the religion of peace….

  • Eric Anondson

    Guns are easily available to killers in the USA.

    Guns are easily available to killers in every part of the planet. Imagine that. Especially the parts run by theo-tyrants or enlightened social democrats. In the USA they also happen to be available to the victims to defend themselves without having to wait for a capricious state get around to saving them from killers.

    No one has tried to stop the availability of guns.

    This is such an ill-considered statement it betrays utter ignorance about America, one might be tempted to say that this Muhammed character has informed himself on a steady diet of TV and Hollywood. Otherwise he might have an aquaintance with American gun control laws.

    Of course, in the Middle East it seems to be the policy to want to admit gun-wielding armed bands into the apparatus of the state… thus getting the guns out of the hands of civilians by making those gun-wielding civilians another state militia or police! I wonder if that policy would go down well in South Chicago… make the Disciples or Vice Lords a wing of the police pulling down a government paycheck? Hmm…

    Trillions of dollars have been lost on the corporate sponsored wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Is this calculated by Islamathematics? Or is this one of those “it doesn’t matter what you say, God knows the essential truth… so say whatever fiction you can conjure if it can be used to steer people towards God’s will?”

    There must be a better way to control violent people instead of waging illegal wars.

    There you go again. Always with the wanting to control people. Or are you saying that waging legal wars are a good way to control people, one that you would endorse?

  • http://blowingsmokethemovie.com Jim Treacher

    Boy did you get this one wrong Jeff. The Pope did not apologize for his statement as the story you linked to says.

    You bet he didn’t!

  • http://franzstehrn.blogspot.com franzstehrn

    wow, jj got it right for once, only that the pope did not turn pc, he merely made the point more concrete.
    but on the other hand you hardly have the knowledge to debate the pope and therefore your lins saying “I think it’s ironic that the Pope then goes on to try to expand the definition of reason beyond that accepted in the West because he wants to portray religion as reasonable.” that is a fundamental question to both philosophy and religion and to science.
    you obviously didn’t get the point about this basic argument in the popes lecture.
    besides that, I fully agree with you.

  • bdffsda

    This is such an ill-considered statement it betrays utter ignorance about America, one might be tempted to say that this Muhammed character has informed himself on a steady diet of TV and Hollywood. Otherwise he might have an aquaintance with American gun control laws.

  • http://prayerandaction.blogspot.com/ Peter

    If followers of Islam don’t want to be insulted as barbarians, then

    1. They have to stop acting like barbarians

    2. Those in Islam who object to barbaric actions in the name of their faith need to publicly in Arabic and English say so.

    3. Imams who live in the west need to make it very clear that they won’t put up with this nonsense.

    Silence implies consent, and the tolerance level of the west for this nonsense is eventually going to run out. If Islam doesn’t clean its own house then the west is going to have to do it. If violent Islam gets WMD first and uses it, the disinfectant used by the west will be stronger then the brand used in Germany & Japan in the 1940’s.

  • Jim Karna

    But it’s OK for the UK and US to continue to behave like barbarians?

    I’m not suggesting that shooting nuns and burning churches is reasonable behaviour but surely you can understand that some muslims may feel a little embattled at the moment.

    Did silence imply consent in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia?

  • Alicia

    So, is anyone not sorry that Muslims have responded this way? Or are you just too glad to see them confirming everything you already know, even if people die? It is absolutely appropriate for a religious leader of the Pope’s position to regret this reaction to his carefully thought-out comments. Such automatic violence obviously means discussion between these major religions is even harder than many people had hoped, and the only reason to not be sorry is if you gave up on discussion long ago. That’s not an option for someone like the Pope, and it shouldn’t be for anyone when you consider the population of the Muslim world, which is just a reality, like it or not. The Pope’s words were historic fact, not intended to be descriptive of his views on Islam. And many people can’t tell the difference, apparently, which is a serious barrier to any meaningful progress. I know I for one am sorry about that, too.

  • syn

    Jim Karna

    Are Muslims feeling embattled because their actions thus far are called out on to the carpet when they proclaim Christans and Jews ‘Nazi pigs’ and should be extermined or threatening to hack off an infidels head for not submitting to Allah’s will, or killing innocent females for having been raped, or hanging homosexuals in the public square?

    Or is it just becasue they are Muslim and therefore are above any criticism?

    Wonder when Kanye West will do a cover shot for Rolling Stone magazines depicting hisself as Allah the great God? OR Madonna doing a vogue Burka strip-tease while dancing on a giant Koran?

  • Eric Anondson

    … but surely you can understand that some muslims may feel a little embattled at the moment.

    No, when looking at the matter dispassionately, reasonably, with conspiracy hat taken off, I cannot understand.

    Did silence imply consent in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia

    Are you implying that muslims living the the secular democratic West are living in isolated communities dominated by totalitarian minded ego maniacs? Maybe the West should be doing battle with those totalitarian minded ego maniacs after all? Like we did with Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? Got a hint of a neo-conservative in ya it seems…

  • Jim Karna

    It was quoting Peter further up the thread who suggested silence implies consent.

    I’d suggest that muslims may feel embattled when when Israel continues to ignore UN security council resolutions that Muslim countries are held account to; that when outlawed WMD are used by UK and US in southern Iraq; that when “illegal combatants” are held with no charge and tortured in contravention to the Geneva Convention; when “terror suspects” are shot in east london before being released without charge

    I’m not suggesting Muslim states are above any criticism (though i am surprised Saudi Arabia is so rarely singled out for criticism in the way the rest of the muslim world is, despite it’s terrible human rights record and strict Sharia law) but there seems too often to be one way street, a perceived wisdom that when western governments perpetrate barbaric acts in the name of democracy that it’s OK.

  • http://deleted Eric Anondson

    … when Israel continues to ignore UN security council resolutions that Muslim countries are held account to

    Oops.

    Israel ignores the UN General Assembly, where a majority of petro-tyrants can get bully 3rd-world presidents-for-life into a sufficient compliance to amass a majority of all member nations. Muslim nations ignore the UN Security Council resolutions. What comes out of the General Assembly is non-binding. The Security Council Resolutions are not.

    Security Council /= General Assembly. Even if you say otherwise.

    You may also wish to review what the Geneva Conventions has to say about illegal combatants before you go putting those words in scare quotes… while not putting the word “torture” in them. Puhlease.

    And could you cite me a case when a “terror suspect” was shot while in custody? Because you can’t release a suspect who hasn’t been taken into custody. I’m aware of a shooting of a suspect who was fleeing on foot to avoid being taken into custody. Wildly different situation.

    You aren’t listening too hard if you are seeing Saudi Arabia rarely get singled out for criticism.

  • Ravo

    “We shall break the cross and spill the wine. … God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. … God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen,” …..(a statement by the Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella group led by Iraq’s branch of al Qaeda.)

    As of yet, there haven’t been any Catholic demonstrations in response to the Pope being burned in effigy, or for the death threats to the Pope or the murder of a nun in Somolia.

    Meanwhile, they burn the cross and firebomb Christian churches because they know they have nothing to lose–not their heads, their lives, anything. But if we so much as drop a Koran,……(Michelle Malkin)

    After Islamic jihadist atrocities, Muslims often complain to authorities of a fear of backlash. (They apparently expect revenge to be taken cause that’s what THEY’D do)

    When the backlash (revenge and violence on the innocent amongst them) doesn’t occur, non-muslims are still blamed for Muslims feeling uncomfortable.

  • Jim Karna

    He wasn’t shot in custody, and i didn’t say he was. He was shot when police raided his home on June 2nd. The story was covered across the British press, it shouldn’t be hard to find.

    Israel ignores general assembly resolutions more often, but it also ignores security council resolutions.

    There are no references to “illegal combatants” in the geneva conventions, it was a made up phrase used to circumvent the rights a prisoner of war has. Which is why it was in inverted commas, i would have said prisoners of war except Bush said they weren’t so didn’t need to be treated in accordance to the geneva convention. Perhaps “torture” should also have been in inverted comma’s but surely you’re suggesting that actions at guantanamo and abu graihb didn’t amount to torture?

  • Ravo

    Abu Ghraib prisoners are screaming for the Americans to come BACK.

  • LT

    “He wasn’t shot in custody, and i didn’t say he was. He was shot when police raided his home on June 2nd. The story was covered across the British press, it shouldn’t be hard to find.”

    He was shot AFTER police raided his home, from which he fled (i think into a subway station), and given the job of protecting law-abiding citizens (as he was not due to the fact he was fleeing pursuit), the police acted appropriately in an attempt to stifle a suspected bombing. Tough choice for those officers to make don’t you think? I guarantee you they took no pleasure in taking another’s life, especially when it could have easily been prevented by the young man obeying police commands.

    And while you are somewhat right in the “introduction” of the terms illegal and unlawful combatant, it was not invented to “circumvent the rights of prisoners of war”. Prisoners of war are a result of combat between warring nations(their government and its soldiers). In this case, the US is not at war with the people of Iraq, nor their government. At one time we were, but that army has been disbanded, therefore containing no actual soldiers. These individuals are acting on behalf of one of many, I believe, political groups, all of which are struggling for power, yet equally hostile to the United States. If these guys are soldiers (ie PRISONERS OF WAR), what government is responsible for them. Who are they to be turned over to? I could go on and on. Jim, you are completely off base with this. I hate to ad-hominem (if that is the correct term), but i know because i’ve been there.

    LT

  • http://www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com jh

    First the Pope did not apologize

    What the Pope actually said was “Sono vivamente rammaricato” which means “I am actively saddened”. So what the Pope really said was “I am actively saddened by the reactions caused by a brief passage in my lecture at the University of Regensburg, which has been deemed offensive by Moslem believers

    That being said the press and even the conservative have a repesponsibilty here. First we need to have dialouge not sensational us vs them. IS there real Moslem outrage over the Pope’s statement. Most photos I have seen have 50 or less people in them at these rallies. I keep hearing about this mob in London but looking at the photos it wasnt a mob. IF there are not moderate voices speaking out that should be reported. However if there are moderate voices speaking out it is our responsibilty to help give them a platform.

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    I know Professor Pondscum is not welcome at this site. Nevertheless this is how Informed Comment (www.juancole.com) quoted the Pope this morning:

    “I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims . . . These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought. I hope this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with mutual respect.”

    Chuck, Franzstehrn and JH each see no apology here (Jim Treacher also said there was none, but that could have been sarcasm). What more did Benedict have to say to qualify as an apology?

  • http://jimtreacher.com Jim Treacher

    “(Jim Treacher also said there was none, but that could have been sarcasm)”

    For more information, click the link.

  • http://kalipuna.blogspot.com Dr. Mathews

    The fact that events have drawn the media to the Pope’s recent expressions on Islam instead of the Papacy’s (apparent) embrace of THE JERUSALEM DECLARATION ON CHRISTIAN ZIONISM is truly unfortunate. In the latter we see the progressive forces of the Catholic faith at work in the contemporary world:

    Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel. The Christian Zionist programme provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it laces an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ’s love and justice today.

  • Jim Karna

    LT – you’re confusing two incidents. Jean Charles de Menezes – a Brazillian national and non muslim – was shot at Stockwell tube station in the wake of the tube bombings. Initial reports suggested he was running away, that he leapt over barriers refusing to stop when ordered to. However, this turned out to be mere speculation.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

    The second incident, that i was referring to, was in Forest Gate. Two men were arrested, one was shot, in the home. They were suspects, but both were released without charge and a police apology. The man shot is taking legal action against the police.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5077198.stm

    I thought (and i may be wrong) that the term “illegal combatant” came from the war in Afghanistan rather than the war in Iraq. I suppose there’s an argument that it wasn’t a war between two sovereign states but a man hunt for bin laden, although as the war also sort to remove the Taliban government i don’t think its an especially powerful argument.

  • Rober Landbeck

    The leader of a church that launched both the crusades and inquisition obviously knows a few tricks about religious violence but hardly holds any ‘moral’ high ground. But poachers turned gamekeeper are always suspect, mostly hypocrites. But the biggest threat to the pope is not Islam. The origins and claims of his own church are coming under question by a new interpretation of the moral teachings of Jesus the Christ recently posted on the web. Check these links: http://www.energon.uklinux.net
    http://thefinalfreedoms.bulldoghome.com

  • LT

    Jim, my apologies for not misinterpreting the 2 incidents. Since I do not know about the second (of which you are speaking) I have no info to formulate an opinion.

    You may also be correct in the origins of the terms illegal combatant. However, given the set of circumstances of either situation, you have armed groups not really representative of a government, who, according to the laws of the geneva convention, are not soldiers. What is/was the solution or a better one? I don’t know the answer, but thats what i know.

    thanks for responding
    LT

  • Jim Karna

    LT – perhaps its a pompous moral utopia, but i think the US/ UK do have a moral obligation to treat prisoners humanely whether they’re prisoners of war who have rights under the geneva convention (i’d argue that those from Afghanistan are, but i take your point. You could also argue that the war their isn’t over and they should still be held as prisoners of war…) or illegal combatants. I don’t know what the answer is, but if they’re guilty of something they should be charge and tried; if they’re being held to stop them rejoining the jihad then surely torture isn’t necessary.

  • LT

    I agree with your assessment of their treatment. I in no way endorse mistreatment, or any violation of the Geneva Conventions. Please don’t misinterpret my arguments concerning their classification as anything other than that.

    LT

  • http://benedictionblogson.com Bene Diction

    This is also a media problem.

    Benedict spoke to an academic crowed at one of his favorite universities, and I think it requires a degree of understanding to report it accurately.

    Most of the world does not or cannot read, but do have television sets.

    My question is simple – why didn’t/doesn’t the Vatican provide the text of the speech in Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian languages?

    Those that can read would have been able to. There are enough channels avaivable the text could have been read in it’s entirety to those with access to TV.

    Would it have stopped the violence? Doubtful.
    We in the west can just tune him out, having lived our lives with a different kind of faith tension.

    Since the Vatican has the media capability, I think this was a misstep.
    While the new Pope has made it clear he is not going to feed ‘the beast’ (media) is he honestly in the position not to, as he was as a Cardinal?

    Another question: Is the text of the speech online in languages other than Italian, German and English for those with access to computers?

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Here are few examples of the violence happening in the West.

    The Western media tries to under-report rapes and murders in the West. According to the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network in the USA, “Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. One in six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape … In 2003-2004, there were an average annual 204,370 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.”

    In the USA more than 40 percent of female murders are committed by their family members. The Western media does not want to know what are the reasons behind the murders of thousands of women every year. It raises the issue of the honour killing only when a Muslim is involved in a murder. It tries to imply that there are no cases of honour killings involving the Western men. It is also guilty of condoning these murders by not using a strong language against the Western men who are killing thousands of innocent women.

    Read More …

    The war to colonise hearts and minds

  • kat

    Well, Muhammad, I’m just happy that muslims treat their women better than the US does. In muslimville, life is a rose garden.
    http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/298/13066

  • LT

    “It raises the issue of the honour killing only when a Muslim is involved in a murder. It tries to imply that there are no cases of honour killings involving the Western men.”

    wrong Muhammad. Everyone, everyone in the US is aware that killing another human being, unless in an act of self defense is wrong. We don’t have to speak up, or voice strong opposition to these killings because the social norm is not to murder. Per your regard above, there are no cases of honor killings involving western men, THAT ARE SOCIALLY AND LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. We, as other nations, have problems with violence. However, we as a nation choose to prosecute and jail those guilty of murder, where it seems that you and some others justify and celebrate it.

    LT

  • http://postwatchblog.com Christopher Fotos

    I think it’s ironic that the Pope then goes on to try to expand the definition of reason beyond that accepted in the West because he wants to portray religion as reasonable.

    You got this a bit backwards and I don’t think you have contended with what he’s really saying.

    In Catholic teaching, reason and faith are two sides of the same coin–a world created by God. Mathematics and science describe the physical world. Faith addresses the spiritual world. Believe what you wish (of course!) but it is not Benedict who is “trying to expand” anything; it is the secular West that has artificially amputated God from the full description of reality.

    Meanwhile, Benedict’s “de-hellinization” language objects to what he sees as attempts to remove the deep imprint of rational Greek inquiry from Christianity, which has been part of it from the very beginning.

    It’s a brilliantly symmetrical speech in some ways, though I think that’s been missed by most pundits looking at it with secular tools. Faith without reason produces conversion by force. Reason without faith produces its own varieties of ignorance (including, specifically in the speech, modern textual critics who reduce Jesus Christ to an interesting moral instructor).

    Whereas a truly Catholic understanding integrates faith and reason into the unity of truth.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    The Australian Prime Minister, John Howard refused to call Dean Jones a “racist” and said, “you cannot be too careful in relation to links between one particular racial or religious group and terrorism”.

    What Howard will say if a former South African cricketer becomes less careful and calls an Australian cricketer a “White Terrorist” for killing innocent Iraqis and native Australians (Aboriginals)?

    Australia has a long xenophobic history of more than two centuries. When English colonised Australia, they declared it a “Terra Nullius” – a no man’s land, so they could occupy the land of Aboriginals without offering any compensation. “Terra Nullius” applies when a piece of land is unoccupied or uncultivated according to European law. However, Aboriginals occupied Australia and they were using the land for day-to-day survival. English settlers used European law to justify colonisation.

    Read More …

    Cricket under siege by Islamophobes

  • kat

    Like a fish out of water or a chicken with its head cut off, Muhammad keeps flopping from topic to topic trying to make a case for violence in islam, and getting his skirts in a knot when someone notices.

  • LT

    laughin out loud over here Kat.

    LT

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    The above reply is in response to following piece on this page.

    MEANWHILE: In Australia:

    The Howard government yesterday challenged the spiritual leaders of the nation’s Muslim community to reject terrorism.

    In a firm address, Andrew Robb, Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, told a conference of Australian imams in Sydney that they had a responsibility to “quarantine Australia from the extremist elements who are tormenting the world, masquerading in the name of Islam”.

  • LT

    Muhammad,
    somehow, I(not sure about others) am missing your point.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    It is very easy to understand if you are at the receiving end. The Holocaust and other atrocities committed by the West are not a big issue for the Western people.

    Ask native Australians (Aboriginals) how they feel about the genocide committed by the West. Aboriginals used to be hunted like animals by the Western people.

    One needs to see why someone is saying something. What is their background?

    Ho war d’s government pro-war stance and the Australian history show the reasons behind the treatment of Muslims in Australia.

    Need to know more about the killing machines …

    Type “Aboriginals Genocide” and look for the results.

    Here is a link to start with.

    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s746130.htm

    Read More …

    http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/cricket-under-siege-by-islamophobes.html

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    LT Says:

    September 21st, 2006 at 7:35 am
    laughin out loud over here Kat.

    LT

    Have you started crying?

    If not then think like an Aboriginal.

    You will not stop crying.

  • kat

    By mistake I typed in Armenian genocide. You should read that, Mo.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Millions of people have been killed by the West around the world.

    1- The Holocaust
    2- Vietnam
    3- Iraq
    4- Afghanistan
    5- Native American Genocide
    6- Australian – Aboriginals Genocide
    7- Japan – use of atomic bombs against civilians
    8- Russia
    9- World War I
    10- World War II
    11- World War III – The West is getting ready for the World War III but it is too late. Asia is too strong think of China, India, and Pakistan.

    Read More …

    http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html

  • kat

    Tens of millions have been killed in muslim genocides, I can’t change that. I am concerned about the muslim barbarity today–that you try to condone. Jesus never condoned violence. I don’t. Mohammad did and by the sound of your posts, so do you, because you have examples to excuse it instead of to condemn and confront it. You sound just like Osama and his ghouls,

  • http://marvinperry.org kevin

    Can we all just get along?

  • Bug

    ” If Islam doesn’t clean its own house then the west is going to have to do it. If violent Islam gets WMD first and uses it, the disinfectant used by the west will be stronger then the brand used in Germany & Japan in the 1940’s. ”

    All of you people are missing the point here. The intellectual advancement of the western world was not due to the existance and practice of Christianity. Or someone didn’t suddenly drop a ‘disinfectant’ in the middle of Europe about the time of Renaissance and the Reformation of the Church happened!!

    Those of you that boast an open, intellectual mind, and the right to the freedom of speech act as if these were dropped into your laps. Oh, wait, of course they were. You all just seemed to forget the fact that there once was a time when your ancestors couldn’t even dream of these! (Unless of course he was a crazily brave man for his time and his last name was Luther.)

    There is a process! A cultural process! A maturing of minds and civilisations. Being the marvellous minds that you all are, why don’t you think about the ways the same can happen in the Muslim world today? Let’s hear the constructive comments that could really make a difference at the heart of the matter! Both sides! Come on!!

    Otherwise, the only place to be washed off with a ‘disinfectant’ is this so called ‘forum’.

    Peace out!

  • LT

    Muhammad,
    what is the purpose of the list there? Those are wars and of course people are going to die, on both sides. Listing them up there really has nothing to do with the fact that radical muslims have taken the muslim religion to the extreme, and use it to justify killing innocent people. In addition, it has nothing to do with our point about muslims celebrating the murder of innocents (honor killings, mosque bombings, school bombings – are you one of those who celebrates this type of thing?) Our point, once again, is that we (at least here in America) punish and jail those found guilty of murder, whereas, many different regions RULED BY ISLAMIC LAW DO NOT.
    Finally, lets make a distinction here. The atomic bomb was not USED against civilians. Certainly, civilians did die during its employment against a port area and military hub, but to suggest that the civilians were intentionally targeted is untruthful. You will admit that won’t you?

    BUG
    “Those of you that boast an open, intellectual mind, and the right to the freedom of speech act as if these were dropped into your laps.” Who is acting this way? Kat, Eileen, I, and others here know what is involved in freedom. Contrary to belief, freedom isn’t free. Its very costly, in both lives and money. Our nation fought and won its independence through great sacrifice, and were not about to give it up to a bunch of thugs who use a certain religiion to justify a war against civilians and our way of life. My family has personally been involved in WWI(grandfather), WWII(dad), Vietnam(brother), and Iraq2(me-LT Green). I think a little consideration could be used the next time you try to lump all us “intellectuals” into any particular stereotype.

    peace out
    LT

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

    Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

    Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

    Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

    http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/09/war-to-colonise-hearts-and-minds_19.html

  • kat

    Some quotes for you, Muhammad:
    “O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed.” (Koran, 9:73)

    “When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended.” (Koran, 47:4)

    “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or to have their hands and feet chopped off on opposite sides, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror.” (Koran, 5:33-34)

    “When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah’s word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly.” (Koran, 17:16-17)

    “In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost.” (Koran, 8:37)

    “How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples.” (Koran, 21:11)

    “Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them.” (Koran, 8:12)
    Quotes from Islam’s Most Famous Spokesman

    It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

    Ayatollah Khomeini

    (Quote taken from Khomeini’s book, Tahrirolvasyleh, vol. 4, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990, Source: Homa For more sensational and outrageous quotes regarding “taboo” issues, please see the Homa website.)

    If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, an ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned.

    Ayatollah Khomeini

    Eleven things are impure: urine, excrement, sperm…non-Moslem men and women…and the sweat of an excrement-eating camel.
    Ayatollah Khomeini
    “A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate.” – Khomeini

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Chris Stanley, a professor of theology at St Bonaventure University in western New York state said, “There is the angry violent god of the Old Testament, but there is plenty of language in the New Testament that portrays God as a violent judge, and some that can be taken that human violence is something that God would ordain,”.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bible-koran-are-violent-but-read-between-lines/2006/05/26/1148524886079.html

  • kat

    Well, quote something violent that Jesus said.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    “Archbishop Bernard Law of Boston has resigned amid accusations that he covered up paedophilia by Roman Catholic priests in his diocese.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2572517.stm

  • LT

    Muhammad,
    I was wondering if you were going to answer my question. I guess not. Here’s another one for you to ignore. Right now, anywhere on earth, where is there an ongoing violent battle with Christians murdering innocent people in the name of their faith?

    LT

  • kat

    Bernard Law preyed on teenage boys because he was gay. He was a member of NAMBLA. There are many gay school teachers who prey on boys–not because of religion or lack of it–but because of their sexuality. It is not their profession that makes them gay. There are gay muslims, too–but you stone them to death. Only your mullahs can rape boys–allah allows that.
    http://reactor-core.org/islamic-homosexuality.html

  • http://permagnus.com/ Oskar Syahbana

    Kat, where did you get that facts? Islam condem same-gender sex. So your arguments (or your citations) that only mullahs can rape boys is without base.

    Plus, I never do those things you said (on the above post). I think you’re over-stereotyping all Moslems or all people that speaks for them.

    Now please people, constructive comments please…

  • kat

    Isn’t it true that homosexuality is a crime in the koran and punishable by stoning or beheading?
    But these Mullahs seem to get away with it. And muslims have the gall to criticize Catholics, who do not condone the actions of the perverted priests and called for their jailing and dismissal.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4084951.stm

  • http://candyjkt.blogspot.com candy

    These posts reminded me when I was in battle with christians, .. standing up for my religion..
    but these days somehow I think does religion really matter ?
    If God really exist what is the purposes of these situation ?

    Now my thought is when the foundation of morality in society is none, then people need religion as the reference to develop ground rules for morality, source for relate one person to other(s) people.
    However, when the community or people have established their norms and understanding on morality to their environment, then I dont see the need to refer to the early foundation which may not suffice to the needs of todays society.

    Therefore in this consumerism world, the world of global news, however we have to suffer attacks, battles on religion which actually do not really mean anything but to gain political power over nation(s) which at the end means also money.. money

    So go on eat the war !!

  • kat

    Oskar–you may have had a point if you had told Muhammad that he was overstereotyping Christians. However, in your mind, that is only the case when it comes to criticizing muslims. Christians are fair game, especially Catholics, right Oskar?

  • Bug

    LT:

    I was referring to a much more fundamental part of history, an ‘evolution of the human mind’ so to speak. Did u even read the rest of my post?

    ”Kat, Eileen, I, and others here know what is involved in freedom. Contrary to belief, freedom isn’t free. Its very costly, in both lives and money. Our nation fought and won its independence through great sacrifice…”

    Anyone from any nation would agree with that. What I wrote about though, is unfortunately something that failed happen anywhere but the parts of the world where the culture of the ‘western world’ is prevalent.

    Again, please re-read my past post.

    Regards.

  • kat

    Candy–do you meam like when atheism got rid of God and satisfied the needs of society. Notorious atheist butchers like Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot,Kim Il Sung, Enver Hoxha,etc. killed and slaughtered their own people at an unheard-of rate.  When it comes to piling up a body count, atheists have the religion believers beat by miles, yet they had ground rules for morality–you just kill anyone who doesn’t comply.

  • Bug

    Man…

    What a nut house. What a lot of finger pointing from all sides. As if there is one single nation, one single group of people form a single religion, single ethnical back ground, on one single tiny part of this planet that is absolutely purely innocent of the demise of another. What a lot of empty talk. Bravo!

    Of course, wasting time by playing the blame game is so much easier. And maybe even fun for some?

    I feel I’m gonna have to wait a loooong time to see a single post that would work towards any idea of a solution.

    The challenge is still on, people.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Liberals will prevail all around the world. There is no place for neoconservatives or old-conservatives.

  • kat

    There is no place for terrorists like the current islamics. They will either have to reform or be destroyed.

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Why some people become angry when they hear the word liberal?

  • katharina

    bravo bug,

    appears to me that the ‘divide and conquer’ strategy works wonders… on the global scene and on this blog

    this ‘group’ against that ‘group’… one religion against another, one nation against another, rich against poor, colour against other colour… repubs against dems, and on and on and on

    atrocities are and have been committed by christians (currently killing innocents in iraq in record numbers), muslims, jews, etc throughout history… in honour of one or another god… and their’s is the ONLY peaceful god (please note sarcasm)

    one needs to ask… why do we war? if war worked, why does it continue?… and ask further… who benefits?

    dig deeper… religion and nationalism are tools used by the controlling powers that exist in most current governments, in the UN, IMF, WTO, and the Vatican… to control the masses… to incite fear anger and division amongst people when power control and greed are the dominating factors the determine policy

    government, media, many so called ‘religious’ leaders are often controlled by those who stand to profit most… follow the money trail to see the only ones who benefit from war…

    war! what is it good for? PROFIT and control… poor people killing other poor people for the sole benefit of a very few, very rich, who manufacture war, profit and never fight…

    the pope is part of the agenda as the vatican was in ww2… my personal opinion is that the pope intentionally incited violence to further the divide and the media is playing right along… who owns and controls what you are told?

    war is a business, war is a racket… this global war ‘on terror’ is being intentionally incited by those who stand to profit the most financially… not for freedom and democracy… never has been, never will be

    peace be with you… refuse to war

  • kat

    katharina, did you just fall off a turnip truck??

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Anti-Pakistani and anti-Muslim lobby is very strong in the West. They are in both far right and far-left. They will not leave any chance to defame Muslims any where in the world, although, overwhelming majority of Muslims is not practicing religion.

    Muslims are breaking the basic principles of Islam in their daily lives. These people cannot be regarded as Muslims from a theological point of view. But this is not enough to please far-right and far-left lobby.

    For example practicing Muslims cannot use contraception. That means the rate of population growth should be extremely high in countries like Pakistan and women should end up having fourteen or more babies, but this not the case.

    Muslim cannot involve in usury that is charging or paying interest on financial transactions. Guess! What type of financial system we have in Pakistan? It is similar like any other Western country.

    But this is not enough to stop poisonous propaganda. It will continue at any cost. They will keep on propagating stereotypical images of Muslims.

  • kat

    With suicide bombings spreading from Iraq to Afghanistan, the Pentagon has tasked intelligence analysts to pinpoint what’s driving Muslim after Muslim to do the unthinkable.
    Their preliminary finding is politically explosive: it’s their “holy book” the Quran after all, according to intelligence briefings.
    In public, the U.S. government has made an effort to avoid linking the terrorist threat to Islam and the Quran while dismissing suicide terrorists as crazed heretics who pervert Islamic teachings.

    “The terrorists distort the idea of jihad into a call for violence and murder,” the White House maintains in its recently released “National Strategy for Combating Terrorism” report.

    But internal Pentagon briefings show intelligence analysts have reached a wholly different conclusion after studying Islamic scripture and the backgrounds of suicide terrorists. They’ve found that most Muslim suicide bombers are in fact students of the Quran who are motivated by its violent commands – making them, as strange as it sounds to the West, “rational actors” on the Islamic stage.

    In Islam, it is not how one lives one’s life that guarantees spiritual salvation, but how one dies, according to the briefings. There are great advantages to becoming a martyr. Dying while fighting the infidels in the cause of Allah reserves a special place and honor in Paradise. And it earns special favor with Allah.

    “Suicide in defense of Islam is permitted, and the Islamic suicide bomber is, in the main, a rational actor,” concludes a recent Pentagon briefing paper titled, “Motivations of Muslim Suicide Bombers.”

    Suicide for Allah a ‘win-win’

    “His actions provide a win-win scenario for himself, his family, his faith and his God,” the document explains. “The bomber secures salvation and the pleasures of Paradise. He earns a degree of financial security and a place for his family in Paradise. He defends his faith and takes his place in a long line of martyrs to be memorialized as a valorous fighter.

    “And finally, because of the manner of his death, he is assured that he will find favor with Allah,” the briefing adds. “Against these considerations, the selfless sacrifice by the individual Muslim to destroy Islam’s enemies becomes a suitable, feasible and acceptable course of action.”

    The briefing – produced by a little-known Pentagon intelligence unit called the Counterintelligence Field Activity, or CIFA – cites a number of passages from the Quran dealing with jihad, or “holy” warfare, martyrdom and Paradise, where “beautiful mansions” and “maidens” await martyr heroes. In preparation for attacks, suicide terrorists typically recite passages from six surahs, or chapters, of the Quran: Baqura (Surah 2), Al Imran (3), Anfal (8), Tawba (9), Rahman (55) and Asr (103).

    Particularly 9:111, which guarantees Paradise to those who “kill and are killed” for Allah.
    http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/osint/4260/1

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Nationalism is the reason for resistance against American aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan.

  • kat

    And what is the reason for the aggression against Black Nigerians and Darfurians??

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    Tribalism

  • http://pakistan1947.blogspot.com/2006/08/shadows-of-great-game.html Muhammad Azeem Akhter

    What is the reason for not helping the people of New Orleans?

    Racism.

  • N. K.

    Looks like Pope Benedict XVI is returning to his old upbringing as he just reinstated a holocaust denier.