Disproportionalism

With disproportionalism becoming the meme of choice in the discussion of the Israel/Hezbollah fight, it’s worth remembering these numbers (from Wikipedia):

* U.S. civilian deaths in World War II: 11,200
* UK civilian deaths in World War II: 67,800
* German civilian deaths in World War II: 1,840,000 (not including Holocaust genocide)
* Japanese civilian deaths in World War II: 600,000

And so what would the proportionalists have had us do? What is their argument? Should we have dragged the war and the suffering on longer because we were winning too quickly by killing too many, thus allowing more Jews to die in the Holocaust and more civilians to die by starvation and disease and more soldiers to die over time?
Should have stopped fighting when we were killing too many? Of course, in war, any death is a death too many. So what is the right number? What is the right proportion? Does proportionalism take into account the population of the enemies? So in the current case, whom do we put in this devil’s algorithm: the populations of Israel and Lebanon, or of Israel and Hezbollah, or of Israel and the Arab world, or of Israel and the Muslim world, or of Israel and the rest of the world? I guess that depends on whom you count as Israel’s enemies. How do you account for military putting civilians at risk by hiding in their midst? How do you account for cutting off the fighting by cutting off its support? Do you award bonus points to the guy who starts it all? What is a proportional war?

Or did they just learn this doctrine from Star Trek and its 500-year war?

Beaming to the surface with a landing party, Kirk and Spock are met by a young woman, Mea 3, who tells them that Eminiar VII has been at war with its neighboring planet, Vendikar, for over 500 years. Mea 3 takes them to the council chambers where they find banks of computers. Eminiar’s head council Anan 7 informs them that the two planets have learned to avoid the complete devastation of war because computers are used. When a “hit” is scored by one of the planets, the people declared “dead” willingly walk into antimatter chambers and are vaporized. Anan 7 further tells Kirk that his ship and all the crew aboard her have been declared casualties and will be executed. When Kirk flatly refuses, the landing party members are taken prisoner.

  • Decent_Bloke

    Of course one’s man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter etc etc.

    Jeff, given that you’ve made this – to me – unexpected swerve into politics, do you agree that underlying the whole mess is the need for a viable Palestinian state? Once that’s sorted out I’m sure we’ll still be left with some nutters with geo-political points to be made but the majority should be happier.

    As a contented reader of your usual stuff, I’d be happier if you put your energies into calling for a wider settlement. Your post “Fearing for Israel” gave me the impression that Israel must have complete supremacy.

  • http://www.beatcanvas.com Brett Rogers

    If Hezbollah / Hamas stopped hiding behind civilians and would stop bringing unwilling “martyrs” to their cause, civilian deaths would decrease dramatically. Where are the cries from the “Israel sucks” lobby to have the Jihadists/anti-Zionists to have respect for civilians? I don’t hear that, and until I do, what they say is purely anti-Israel bigotry that has no humanitarian interest whatsoever.

    To hell with suicide bombers and the use of civilians as shields. They deserve no respect, and certainly no state while those are the tactics they employ.

  • Mike G

    “do you agree that underlying the whole mess is the need for a viable Palestinian state?Once that’s sorted out I’m sure we’ll still be left with some nutters with geo-political points to be made but the majority should be happier.”

    There are so many questions being begged here it boggles. What makes you think that the Palestinians would run all the land now constituting Israel any better than they run what they have now? They’re a people whose energies have been directed toward hatred of an enemy and a sense of grievance for generations. They don’t turn on a dime and become Canada.

    And “some nutters with geo-political points to be made” is certainly one way of describing the widespread desire to reestablish the Caliphate and impose Taliban-style Islam over the whole world. Another way might be to say, we’re facing an enemy with imperial ambitions and few resources other than its population base, thus the nihilistic desire to bring us down to the same level through old-style wars in which the body count is especially high. But then you did express this cliched thought:

    “Of course one’s man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter etc etc.”

    No, actually not. Plenty of people have fought for freedom without committing atrocities.

  • http://www.rogelsview.com Rogel

    I see only two problems with proportional response: it is impossible to define it, and it is stupid.
    What would be a proportional response for blowing two towers in NY? blowing two towers in Afghanistan? what would be a proportional response if someone attacking your infrastructure with computer virus?
    But proportional response is not only vague it also give all the advantages to the aggressor. When the defender react only in the same proportion as the one that initiate the attack it give the attacker the control on how and when to escalate the conflict. Why would someone agree to this condition is a mystery to me.

    and as a side note the fight with the Hezbullah has nothing to do with Palestinian state, this is only done to confuse the issue.

  • Eric

    Jeff,

    Again excellent point.

    Just to add, at the begining of WWII most public opinion thought that bombing cities was morally wrong (something Nazis and Japanese fascists did, as in Guernica and Shanghai). As the war wore on, opinion shifted to the point where leveling cities, even with atomic weapons, was seen as needed and accpetable.

    World media opinion does not now accept civilian deaths, especially inflicted by civilized/democratic/western forces (I think this is a good thing, if we’re hardened to the point where this is OK, we’re really in an awful mess). But it does make it harder for a democracy to fight a war where civilians die. Even though Hez puposefully targets civilians, they still lack the means to kill many. Even though Israel avoids civilians they still kill more (partially because of the way Hez embedds itself in the civilian world). The media focus is on Israel because they are a proxy for us, and Hezbollah is different from us and so wierd, they are not really a moral player; they are seen as some kind of exotic barbarians. The underlying world view here is that Hezbollah is an amoral force, a group of primitives where conventional moral standards can’t be applied.

    Anyway, this is a war fought with real weapons where the outcome will be decided by perceptions (since outright destruction of the parties here is very unlikely). Thus, having a media observer like you Jeff discuss how these perceptions are formed is important and valuable. Keep it up!

  • Maezeppa

    By your reasoning, we should draw and quarter shoplifters and shoot their families in the public square.

    Dick Cheney wants his massive war, and by God, with a weak Israeli PM and his AIPAC buddies, he will have it.

    What’s really tragic is that this response has been war-gamed six ways from Sunday and Israel is the loser despite its military superiority.

  • Decent_Bloke

    Mike G, thank you for the quick response.

    So the Palestinians can’t run their own affairs? Hasn’t that always been the view of the strong – certainly it was used by the British when they ran their empire. I’m not sure they’d get to Canada in a single bound but if you really don’t think they’re capable of self-administration, do they have any right to exist outside some sort of glorified zoo? Sub-human, perhaps? It is a very dangerous slope…

    “The widespread desire to impose a Taliban-style Islam over the whole world”?? Just a touch paranoid, don’t you think? I’m not sure I can argue this point with you, so let’s just say there may be an alternative approach to exterminating anyone who disagrees with you. Oops, sorry, there’s that dangerous slope again.

    Jeff, I’m still looking forward to your comments on a viable Palestinian state.

  • Eileen

    Decent_Bloke said: “The widespread desire to impose a Taliban-style Islam over the whole world”?? Just a touch paranoid, don’t you think?”

    Not in the least. Islamists clearly state their intention to establish a world caliphate across the globe daily. The danger lies in NOT taking them at their words.

    The danger further lies in Westerners not taking Ahmalittledespot/Ahmadinejad at HIS words; i.e., his stated intention to finish the Holocaust he denies ever transpired, his intention to usher in the 12th Imam through fomenting chaos in the region, his stated intentions regarding nuclear ‘power’, his choice of August 22, 2006 to respond to the international offer re development of that ‘power’ (google: Ahmadinejad + August 22, 2006) concommitant with his promise that Muslims will soon have cause for ‘great celebration’, and the failure to recognize that Iran and Syria control HizbALLAH’s actions in every way, including its latest attack on Israel. Ahmalittledespot and Syria have been setting the stage…

    Does Ahmalittledespot already possess nukes? Nuclear material in a truck originating from the UK, bound for Iran, was recently confiscated at the Bulgarian border. [How many others have passed undetected over what period of time?] Others have noted that Iran has in the past done business with N. Korea.

    And there are other causes for concern. It is reported today that Nasrallah is now running the hizb show from the basement of the Iranian embassy in Beirut. It is also reported today that other regional Islamic leaders are lining up in support of hizb. Add to that Zawahiri’s latest message of support of hizb and “the whole world is our battlefield”. Regardless of shia/sunni enmity, all the boys of Islam are united in their plans to smite or dhimmify the infidel; i.e., ALL NON-MUSLIMS, including Muslim apostates. Their ‘religion’ (spit be upon Allah) commands them to.

    Ahmalittlenutcase has big plans for August. We ignore all Clearly Stated Intentions and moves on the Islamic chess board at our own peril.

    Furtunately, I trust that Israel and the U.S., along with a few other civilized nations like Britain, Australia and Canada, are wise to these intentions and ‘developments’.

    It would behoove us to ‘know our enemy’. Regardless of taqiyya, which is designed to muddy the waters, confuse, distract and divert, by their actions and Stated Intentions Islamists across the globe leave little to guess about.

    Fasten your seat belts, folks.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    Perhaps someone would like to add figures for how many “civilian” deaths of Arabs have occurred as a result of actions of their own governments over the past few decades.

    Brutal crackdowns on one’s own citizens are routine, from Algeria to Egypt, and let’s not forget Iran, Iraq, Syria and Jordan.

    The thing all these countries have in common is a corrupt government run by oil sheiks, or their equivalent, which maintains an obscenely rich elite at the expense of everyone else. Keeping the population intimidated and distracted is how this undemocratic control is maintained. It’s worked for 100’s of years and seems to be still working.

    Remember Bin Laden’s beef was with the Saudi royal family, he picked on the US because he felt the US was helping prop up this corrupt regime. Israel is a form of misdirection.

    Let’s also not forget the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force. Is this only allowed by the US?

  • LanceThruster

    Eileen – I do not “trust” anything about our corrupt administration and who they choose to designate as enemies of the state. They are a terrorist entity by any number of definitions. I am more fearful of their abuses and excesses than I am of being a victim of jihadists (and I live in LA). I am more afraid of a Rethuglican “false flag” dirty bomb attack as an “October surprise” in order for them to avoid investigation of their crimes. Sad but true.

  • penny

    So the Palestinians can’t run their own affairs?

    It appears they can and they are. They elected Hezbollah. In other words, they elected to become formally a terrorist state.

    Define a state, please. It’s a little more complex than a piece of real estate. It’s the sum of its laws, commerce, culture, government institutions, infrastructure, and treatment of its citizens. In all of these areas, the Palestinians get a big fat zero. They walked away from the Oslo Accords. They’ve lived for decades off welfare checks from their Arab neighbors. They’ve invested nothing in themselves except being purveyors of terror. They have the same geography as Israel, but can’t even feed themselves.

    The Palestinians, officially governed by Hezbollah, made a choice.

    So, Decent_Bloke, should the IRA have continued their senseless murder and mayhem over their historic land dispute against Britain? The biggest irony is that the Irish Republic, with their incredible economy the past decade, would never want that disputed laggard real estate back.

    The Lebanonese do not have clean hands in this mess. They have aided and abetted Hezbollah. Did they not think that after months of firing missiles into Israel that a day of reckoning would not come? Hezbollah’s missiles are stored in their garages and spare bedrooms, for God’s sake. It’s so typically Arab, refuse to play by the rules, commit atrocities, then whine when payback comes.

    I’m not shedding a tear.

  • Eileen

    LanceThruster (shouldn’t that be Scimitar Slasher?),

    So I guess you also ignore – or attribute to the ‘evil Bush’ – Islamic genocide in Darfur, beheadings of Christian school girls in Thailand, bombings in Madrid, Bali and London, AllahuAkbar screaming youths in France and Australia, terrorist cells in Canada…and on and on and on.

    ISLAM is the enemy. Taqiyya only works until the infidels wise up. Oh, and they ARE wising up. Nice effort, though.

    The “Religion of Peace”, make that “The Religion of Bombers and Beheaders”, is about to get its due. None too soon. If they want to meet their Satan, I say let’s help them on their way.

  • http://www.wolftracksmusic.com Shongk

    Using numberalogy to analyze death policy is not only morbid, but silly. It’s like the near-genius music critics that use math algorithms to wring out a Beethoven symphony to determine “scientifically” how he wrote such amazing music, and then claim the results can help make you a genius composer. There are a few analogies that might be generalized here to add a perspective to the Middle East situation. Islam came to fame via the Mongol Hordes more than a thousand years ago to provide them a grip on the population for – duh – effective military purposses. Nothing has changed in their approach in all the years since. What has changed in the rest of the world has grown up after witnessing the insanity of various emperors, potentates, and dictators. If the Middle East was a island in the middle of the Indian Ocean, no one would care, but it sets in the middle of the road to economic growth – oil. The barbaric attitudes of the “religious” leaders of the region are telling us loud and clear – take a side and let’s get it on. Intellictual discussions of enumerating casualty lists to determine strategy – please, get real. If you want to avoid nuclear winter, stop Iran. If you want to continue enjoying a nice gelata in Rome on a pleasant afternoon – you don’t get it. The angry Isamic militant is in your face, now. Get up off your duff and knock the chip off his shoulder.

  • Eileen

    Krauthammer at WAPO wrote a good article today regarding so-called disproportionality. Here’s a bit:

    “What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

    What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities — every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians — and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy’s infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?

    To hear the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world — governments, the media, U.N. bureaucrats — has completely lost its moral bearings.”

    It’s ‘interesting’ that he listed the same countries I just did regarding those which are aware of Islamic intentions. Hmm.

  • El Campeador

    The proportionality debate is silly – Lebanon is burning yet again under American-made Israeli bombs, while Israel has lost about a dozen civilians overall. The first time Israel laid waste to Lebanon did not help it become more secure, on the contrary, it’s what spurred the creation of Hezbollah.

    50 years of failed imperialistic policy towards the Middle East has helped create this mess. No doubt Eileen slept through the history class that taught about the CIA coup that brought to power America’s favorite ally in the Middle East, and how his Savak polished the revolutionary tiles that Khomeini walked in upon.

  • Decent_Bloke

    Penny wrote: “So the Palestinians can’t run their own affairs?
    It appears they can and they are. They elected Hezbollah. In other words, they elected to become formally a terrorist state.”

    I don’t want to come across as a smart ass, but the Palestinians actually elected Hamas, not Hezbollah. I don’t know if that fact is sufficient for you to change your mind; I’m guessing not.

    Penny wrote: “They’ve lived for decades off welfare checks from their Arab neighbors.
    Some might see the billions the US gives to Israel in the same way.

    Penny wrote:”should the IRA have continued their senseless murder and mayhem over their historic land dispute against Britain?”
    I’m not quite sure how we’ve moved onto Northern Ireland but if you look at the UK’s strategy you might find some useful tactics. First, keep talking to the “enemy” no matter what. Second, don’t try and kill the otherside’s leaders as ultimately you have to do a deal with them.

    Penny wrote: “It’s so typically Arab, refuse to play by the rules, commit atrocities, then whine when payback comes.”
    Replace one word in that sentence and just think how antisemitic it would be.

  • penny

    I am more afraid of a Rethuglican “false flag” dirty bomb attack as an “October surprise” in order for them to avoid investigation of their crimes.

    Let’s see if I get this straight, you are literally more afraid of being blown to bits by Republicans, that being logical in your mind, than by terrorists.

    OK. Are you ever fearful of being perceived as a ranting paranoid moonbat?

  • penny

    “Useful tactics”? I think not. You missed the point. No surprise. We don’t have to “deal” with any terrorist leader. We just have to exterminate them, as we have been doing.

    .Penny wrote: “It’s so typically Arab, refuse to play by the rules, commit atrocities, then whine when payback comes.”

    Replace one word in that sentence and just think how antisemitic it would be.

    Why would I replace a word? I wrote exactly what I meant.

  • theo

    Right on target, Mr. J. These “memes” are actually permutations of The Big Lie and they have proliferated in the past few years as Israel has become increasingly besieged by the terrorist war of attrition that threatens its survival as a state and, significantly, which on a daily basis threatens its civilian population (not that rockets routinely falling on towns and cities, or suicide bombers or bus explosions should be considered unacceptable — I’m sure Brits, The French, the Spanish and Americans would tolerate such inconviences without expecting their governments to respond “disproportiionately”). Other recent manifestations of The Big Lie: The myths of an omnipotent Israeli lobby, puported to be the most powerful (um, can anyone say, Tobacco, Insurance, Saudi Arabia — can anyone say “political system”?); Israel’s supposed status as the largest recipient of US Aid; the “Apartheid” wall; the Jenin”massacre”; and my favorite, the “death” of Mohammed al-Dura. If anyone wants a synopsis of that edge-of-your seat fictional Blood Libel, I direct you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_al-Dura#Controversy where you can read a TV Guide version of what really did — or rather did not — occur. In any case, Mr. J, thanks for your boldness.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Robert Feinman said: “Perhaps someone would like to add figures for how many “civilian” deaths of Arabs have occurred as a result of actions of their own governments over the past few decades.”

    Hmmm…that sidetracks us right unto the path of truth. I’ve never understood why that’s not looked at more. Assad’s annihilation of Hama, Saddam Hussein’s campaign against the Shia, all the factions in Lebanon.

    Death, death, death.

  • http://oodja.blogspot.com Jersey Exile

    Jeff,

    I agree with you on this one — the “proportionality” meme kicking around the Left right now is little more than a veneer of pseudo-respectability for people who didn’t particularly like Israel in the first place to weigh in on the issue without being shouted down as anti-Semites. If you want to quibble about the strategic wisdom of bombing the hell out of Beirut and Southern Lebanon that’s one thing (I for one am not so sure what it will accomplish), but to say that the Israelis don’t have the right to make war in the first place when attacked within their own internationally-recognized borders is just a stone’s throw away from saying that Israel shouldn’t be there in the first place. And indeed, wade into any talkback anywhere on the internet (right or left) and you will find this sentiment lurking just beyond the more reasonable posts about proportionality.

    The fact of the matter is this: for once Israel chose to take the high ground and pull its troops from Lebanon; for once the Lebanese forswore the path of least resistance and told Syria to pack up and leave. And Hizbollah has fucked them both for it. I feel nothing but sadness for all of the innocents who have been ensnared in this conflict.

  • Mike G

    Decentbloke asks rhetorically “So the Palestinians can’t run their own affairs?” and goes from there to me gassing them in Auschwitz.

    Sorry, Decent_bloke, you lose according to the rule that says the first one to invoke Hitler loses. Your’e the one who said ALL we had to do was get out of their way and they’d do a smashing job. Show me one thing about Arafat’s thievery and terrorist activity that indicates GOVERNANCE.

    “Penny wrote: “It’s so typically Arab, refuse to play by the rules, commit atrocities, then whine when payback comes.”
    Replace one word in that sentence and just think how antisemitic it would be.”

    It wouldn’t be anti-semitic if you said that about the Jews, it would just be untrue.

    I just love all these people who say Lebanon was beautiful again and Israel ruined it. It was full of f*cking rocket launchers, is that the definition of the beautiful society these days?

  • http://www.michaelkatcher.com Michael Katcher

    I don’t think anyone needs to respond to Penny after confusing Hamas and Hezbollah. Do you understand how big a difference there is between the two? Hamas wants a Palestinian State, Hezbollah doesn’t (regardless of rhetoric). Hamas was elected, Hezbollah was formed by Khomeini. Hamas is Sunni, Hezbollah is Shi’ite. The list goes on and on… You don’t deserve a seat at the discussion table if you don’t know the most basic of facts.

    Decent Bloke: “Some might see the billions the US gives to Israel in the same way.” That’s idiotic. Hamas rules a refugee camp and the millions of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank literally could not survive with those checks. Israel is a modern, developed economy with a thriving high-tech industry. Jeff Pulver did VON Israel for a reason. I don’t think he’s traveling to Gaza anytime soon. Israel might benefit from American weapon sales, but they geopolitics is the ONLY arena Israel needs the U.S.

  • penny

    Michael – Hama/Hezbollah, my addled mistake. Of course there are differences between the two – sectarian, ethnic, origins, whatever – but, at the core they are both craven political and militia terrorist organizations. Hamas just has extra duties like a municipal payroll to distract them.

    As far as my seat at the table, who died and left you headwaiter?

  • RonP

    “Of course one’s man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter etc etc.” putting aside the over-used cliche, I must ask: If Hezbollah are the freedom fighters you are referring to, then what freedoms are they fighting for? the freedom to kill any and all non-muslims? the freedom to treat women as chattel? the freedom to kill gays & lesbians? the freedom to take away the freedom of the press? – relevant in this forum.

    kind of ironic, innit?

  • McGowan

    [quote: "And so what would the proportionalists have had us do? What is their argument? "]

    ======

    The ‘argument’ is simply that innocents should not be ‘deliberately’ attacked or killed.

    What established moral, religious, ethical, or legal code justifies the killing-of-innocents ?

    Certainly not Judeo-Christian ethics.

    Why adhere to moral/ethical principles at all {??} …. it’s so much easier to simply do what seems expedient and proffer excuses.

  • Kat

    But whom is responsible for waging a war and then hiding behind civilians like the bunch of cowardly thugs that they are.
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108477

  • darth87

    War sucks because people die. Lets keep the pain in war so folks work hard to avoid it.

  • RonP

    Israel has to its detriment exercised way too much restraint. on a tactical level it must fight an enemy that looks like civilians, hides among civilians, stores and fires weapons from civilian locations on other civilians. They bought the whole land for peace bullshit and now must deal with the consequences. I guess we will have to wait for the boys in blue enforce UN resolution 1559.

  • http://ruthcalvo Ruth

    Proportional is another word that doesn’t fit war, any more than ‘humane’ bombing, which the military attributes to the smarter bombs. It would seem that to the attacker, the exact amount of force needed to end a threat to its own combatants and noncombatants would be the correct measure. But how to know that? A ceasefire would stop the killing, so anything that stops the ceasefire can only cause further killing and further tragedy. That is disproportionate.

  • steve

    i submit that future historians will look back to the period from 1948 to, say, 2010 and see the gradual escalation of arab/islamic demands (from “no israel” to “no infidels”) and tactics (from underpowered conventional military efforts to guerrilla military efforts to neophyte terrorist tactics to sophisticated terrorist tactics) culminating — unless the West stands up soon, and with a unified front and “disproportionate” force says “this must end” — in its natural conclusion: nuclear explosions in european and american and israeli cities.

    and then what will be the proportionate response?

    yes of course the palestinian people deserve a state — the UN created one called TransJordan in 1947, and Israel has tacitly then explicitly accepted this since returning the Sinai to Egypt in 1977. but assume arafat had accepted the deal, or one darn like, offered by clinton and barak in 2000. does anyone thing hezbollah and hamas and al-aqsa brigades and the mullahs in iran and the wahhabi movement would all just have faded away? that the qu’ran would have been rewritten to say “turn the other cheek” and not “convert all infidels or kill them”?

    moral relativism is comforting but lazy and wildly dangerous. our system may be deeply flawed and its abuses are horrible and must be addressed. but fascism and radical jihadist islam are far far worse and they are aiming to annihilate us and if we do not respond now we will need to kill 10,000X later to save our way of life

  • RonP

    too right.

  • penny

    yes of course the palestinian people deserve a state

    I’m not so sure about that, steve. If they want some rogue, corrupt state that perpetually terrorizes its neighbor, as is their present form, then, they deserve nothing. Besides the dirt under their feet, as decades have been frittered away, please show me what they have accomplished that would define them as a modern state? There is more to being a state than geography.

    It would seem that to the attacker, the exact amount of force needed to end a threat to its own combatants and noncombatants would be the correct measure.

    How does that work with the Hezbollah agenda of lobbing missiles into Israel for months, Ruth?

    Perhaps, Ruth, a ceasefire would aid the Hezbollah, allowing them to regroup, get a breather, and continue with their murder and mayhem on their schedule. It wouldn’t be real smart, Ruth. In the long run a ceasefire would probably create more civilian casualties.

  • LanceThruster

    penny – fyi, a ‘dirty’ bomb’s ability to cause panic and destruction is not from a danger of being “blown to bits” so much as the contamination a radialogical or biological weapon would spread.

    The Shrub misadministration has rolled out questionable claims of terror plots “thwarted” most often conveniently timed to bump some other troubling news about his criminality or incompetence off the front page.

    The PNAC wrote of the need for a “new Pearl Harbor” to initiate the conflict they wanted in the ME. A US citizen is in far more danger of death from any number of things than from a terror attack and yet those other threats were not the basis for gutting Constitutional protections. There have been far more casualties from the GWOT than the attack itself and yet it has made us less safe, not more so, with the additional outrage of the assault on the Bill of Rights. If “they” (terrorists) hate us for our freedoms, they can stop hating us soon as a good deal of them are being eliminated. There is no similar effort to protect the integrity of the voting process yet that is essential to a free and democratic society as well. Both Cheney and Rove have spoken on record to their base that “war” polls well for the GOP.

    So if I think that a corrupt GOP with an internal threat of investigation and prosecution for failing to uphold their oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution, a risk of being uncovered as committing treason for the lies that led up to an illegal war, and the danger of being found guilty of war crimes makes them extremely desperate and willing to commit further crimes in order to sheild themselves for the crimes they’ve already committed makes me a moonbat, then I’m a moonbat.

    A few timid and cowardly citizens (and their accomplices in government) are not supposed to be able to jettison all our safeguards against the power of the state because they’re *afraid*.

    PLEASE DON’T CREATE A POLICE STATE ON MY ACCOUNT!

    The current regime has shown themselves quite willing to designate a new Emmanual Goldstein at will. And they are big enough crooks and liars to do *whatever* it takes to retain this power.

    Instead, we are treated to diversions such as the current debate of how much death and destruction Israel is entitled to wreak as cover for its crimes against its Arab/Muslim neighbors whether through occupation, the theft of its land and water resources, or its illegal incursions into the territory of the people it claims are aggressors.

    Israel will someday answer for the Lebanese Holocaust it is engaged in and might possibly drag us down with them in the process.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    How many “Islamic Fundamentalists” do people think exist in the middle East? Thousands, millions?

    Is there any data? The whole principle of “terrorism” is that a tiny group can magnify its impact by striking unexpected targets. Look at the IRA, how many people were finally identified with the radical part of the movement?

    The vast majority of people in the region want peace, a better economic setup than they currently enjoy and a secular or nominally religious society. Knowing this, the extremists have to undertake outrageous actions to get their point across.

    Saying the these societies are against “freedom” or whatever the latest mantra is, is insulting the aspirations of the populations of the region, as well as the intelligence of the US public.

    Certainly there are a group of radicals who want to replace the corrupt leadership in the various Arab states with their own people, but that is true of every such movement. If the IRA was interested in a democratic solution in Northern Ireland they wouldn’t have resorted to violence.

    By overestimating the degree of strength of these radical groups we give them more publicity than they deserve and short circuit all intelligent discussion as to realistic approaches to solving the problems of the region. Show me a politician from either party proposing democratic elections in Saudi Arabia, Syria or Jordan. Who is against “freedom”?

  • chico haas

    RF

    Couldn’t agree more about the definition of terrorism. However, more is involved than just violent radicals in the Middle East wanting to replace corrupt regimes. A grander strategy was formulated by Khomeini. His vision, realized in Iran, was to create Islamic Republics in every nation throughout the region, by vote or by force. Groups of radicals may be at spear’s point, but adherents to the movement are legion.

  • Kat

    But why are the cowards hiding behend the so called Lebanese civilians? Are these civilians cohorts of the terrorists?
    I read that 10 – 15 % of muslims are of the fanatic variety–that’s not counting their offspring. That makes over 100 million moonbats.

  • http://erasend.blogspot.com kingdom2000

    I always thought the point of the “good guys” waging wars was to help the civilians of those places. Thats why we got involved in Korea, Vietnam, boycott Cuba, had Reagan, Chenay, Rumsfield etc help Saddamn Hussien get the power he needed to help against Iran while also Osama Bin Ladin gain a foothold in Afganinstan against the Russian communist threat.

    Really, the last 65 years of our history has been about waging war to help civilians and prevent of the countries from forcing their version of government on another country. At least I thought that.

    Now apparently that isn’t true since, unlike the Russians who tried to force communist rule on others, we are trying to force our version of democratic rule on others. If there is a distinction between the two (other then who you think the good guy is) I am not able to find one.

    I would hope that the next 65+ years will be about the US waging peace, but sadly waging peace and keeping the populace under control with fear are mutually exclusive goals.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    Chico and Kat:
    I’d like to see some documentation on the number of “radicals”. Many people can broadly support something without being willing to engage in armed conflict to get it.

    I also don’t see any widespread support (as opposed to extremist posturing) for a large number of “Islamic Republics”. Iran was a special case, partly brought on by our backing the wrong forces in Iraq and Iran during the prior decades. Since this was a minority take over, the results have been as expected. The population hates the regime, the economy has declined and unemployment stands at 30%. Many who can get out, leave. This is the model that is going to be shown to the other countries in the region? A great selling point, if you ask me.

    The only other theocracy in the region is Saudi Arabia, and that isn’t really a strict theocracy, more like a society with an official state religion.

    Let’s tell Jordan that the King has to step aside or become a figurehead (like in the UK) and we will insure that there are free elections. We can do the same thing in Syria and Saudi Arabia. Wake me up when the US and/or the EU proposes that.

  • Kat

    Robert–if you support the scum with money and preach their ideology, you are a moonbat even if you aren’t doing the killing.
    And if you don’t see the pattern worldwide of muslims trying to force islam on others, then your head is somewhere dark.
    {Upon hearing an immigrant Islamist speaker instruct an audience of Muslims that they were “obligated to desire, and when possible to participate in, the overthrow of any non-Islamic government–anywhere in the world–in order to replace it by an Islamic one,” one American-born convert remembers protesting in dismay that this would involve people like himself in political treason. “Yes, that’s true,” was the lecturer’s blithe response (Jeffrey Lang, Even Angels Ask: A Journey to Islam in America, 1997).

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Hey Kat

    You seem. by saying, “the pattern worldwide of muslims trying to force islam on others”, to be putting all Muslims in the same category.

    First of all, that’s pure bias. Secondly, its incorrect.

  • Kat

    No, I don’t mean all muslims–more muslims are the victims of the terrorist muslims than anyone else….I just wish the good ones had more balls.

    {The fact is that there are currently 40 armed conflicts going on in the world and all but two involve Islam. Who is the menace?FrontPageMagazine.com | December 11, 2001
    Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Iran – there is hardly a Muslim country that is not plagued by terrorism.

    It goes without saying, then, that the bulk of victims of terrorism are also Muslims, 11 September notwithstanding. This is particularly so when we consider that violence and brutalisation has become the norm in unending quests for self-determination in such places as Palestine, Kashmir and Chechnya. Terror and counter-terror forms an endless cycle that has cost countless Muslim lives.

    Thus, terrorism, the horror it provokes and the consequences it breeds, are more familiar to Muslims than to any other people. Ziauddin Sardar
    Sunday October 21, 2001
    The Observer }

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Oh. OK. Very good explanation. ; )

  • RonP

    “Saying the these societies are against “freedom” or whatever the latest mantra is, is insulting the aspirations of the populations of the region, as well as the intelligence of the US public.”

    I am assuming that you are referring to Hizbollah aka Party of God? Client of the Shiite Theocracy in Iran. Where I think they execute you for being gay or committing adultery. who am i to say what freedom is? After all the real threat is the christrian right?

    The West better wipe the smug, smile off of our faces. If we wish to retain our liberal western society we had better be prepared to fight for it. First step is to know who your enemies are and be prepared to deal with them. Because if we don’t they will deal with us. and it won’t be by UN resolution.

  • http://ruthcalvo ruth

    Gotta be amazed at the ‘stopping the killing can escalate the killing’ claim. The last ceasefire lasted 10 years. But of course, this refusal to put respect for life above politics has to make that claim. Otherwise, killing is coldblooded sacrifice of human lives for political gain. Giving primacy to armed force over diplomatic engagement is law of the jungle, and hardly justifiable as civilized discourse.

  • RonP

    please name me one conflict where lasting peace has not been the result of a victor and a vanquished. there is no peace process in the middle east never has and there never will be. the notion that you can negotiate peace has led to some of the largest bloodbaths in the last 100 years. especially fragrant in this regard is the maitre d’ of the worlds most expensive supper club: Kofi Annan. if anyone is to blame for this situation, he and his organization of feckless idiots had us believe (shame on us) that resolution 1559 would be the balm which would sooth all parties. He stands there (much like claude raines) and professes that he is shocked that Israel is defending itself and that there is a lack of proportionality. please enough with the platitudes. this is a 2 sided struggle. one side will eventually be destroyed. for the sake of western democracy we had better hope it is not israel.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    But this ins’t about western democracy. This isn’t about our freedoms here in the United States. This is about land, about culture, about religion. It is about the survival of Israel and the survival of Lebanon.

    Hizbollah isn’t the one that wants Muslim domination from Span to Iraq. That’s al Queda. Sunni domination, not Shia.

    Too many people seem to think that Israel and the US are one in the same. We are most certainly not. That’s why it gets frustrating seeing some pro-Israeli types act as if questioning what Israel is doing automatically means one is anti-Semetic. Or against ‘Western values”. Or seeing some being very concerned about Israeli citizens but show little regard for Lebanese civilains who are caught in this war.

    Equating Israel with the US too much is often unfair to Israel, hence this topic of disroportionality. Those of us in the US don’t know – outside of 9/11 – what it’s like to be attacked by bombs, etc. Or to be a country whose birth is partially based on the fact that half of the world’s population of a particular group of people (in this case Jews) was wiped out 60-70 years ago.

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    To return to the original topic of the post…

    …the term “proportion” is not used in these discussions to mean tit-for-tat. And it is not a reference to Star Trek. My understanding is that “proportion” is in fact a term of art in Just War Theory and derives from St Augustine not Gene Roddenberry.

    As the BBC summarizes in its ethics section at http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/jwproportionate.shtml:

    “The goal of the war should be in proportion to the offense. Thus a state should not set itself a goal that is out of scale to the wrong to be righted. So if country A invades part of country B, it is ethical for B to go to war to get the captured territory back, but it would not be ethical for B to go to war to conquer country A and take over all of it.

    “The benefits of waging the war must be in proportion to the costs, so: it must prevent more evil than it causes: it must prevent more human suffering than it causes.”

    Applied to this particular conflict, the argument is that Israel’s war against Lebanon is not just if its attack is out of proportion to the original offense, the border skirmish that led to the capture of its two soldiers.

    A majority of those complaining about Israel’s “disproportion” assume that the skirmish was merely a pretext for a long-planned assault on Hezbollah and not a true casus belli. Their argument is persuasive.

    Needless to say, this in no way excuses Hezbollah’s recklessness in providing Israel with such a pretext; nor does it excuse Hezbollah’s unjust use of rockets on civilian targets. There are many criticisms to be leveled at Hezbollah here, but disproportion is not one of them. That charge can justifiably be laid at Israel’s feet.

  • RonP

    you say this isn’t about western democracy. how blind can you be. hizbollah is a sock puppet of iran (albeit a deadly sock puppet with teeth) iran holds itself up as the alternative to the great satan ( US, Western Democracy etc.). A bulwark against the decadence of western society. well i like that decadence because it is the by product of debate & choice. something that iran, al-queda, islamo-facists writ large are all to happy to take away. I believe, like Christopher Hitchens, in the notion of anti-theism vs. simple atheism – religion is just bad. that said, i would rather live in a judeo-christian western society rather than what the mullahs and the guy in the members only jacket and the bad haircut have to offer from tehran.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    I’m still waiting for someone to explain why the US and the EU are not supporting (insisting on?) democracy in Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the rest of the Gulf states?

    We seem to have no problem telling Iraq and Cuba what kind of government they should have (or Haiti, either).

    Let’s be honest, the US is happy with the status quo in the middle east as long as the oil producing states continue to pump oil at (relatively) favorable prices. We don’t give a tinker’s damn about what form of government they have, or how well their populations are treated. This constant “they are against freedom” mantra is only applied when it suits our own purposes.

    The reason many of the conflicts are occurring in Islamic states now is because these are the last regions in the world that still have nondemocratic societies. Not only are they nondemocratic, but they are unwilling to transform (even gradually) into states with more rights for people. When there are no peaceful options for political reform, the only other course of action is revolution.

    The west could have taken the lead over the past 40 years in fostering democracy in these regions, but since they have little to offer us in the way of trade or natural resources we just didn’t care.

    Those who want to see a co-ordinated, Islamic fundamentalist world movement are in danger of oversimplifying the situation and therefore misunderstanding what needs to be done to bring these conflicts to an end.

  • RonP

    i think this navel gazing debate about “proportionality” is just what the folks at hezbollah are hoping for. they know that multi-culti sentimentality will always fall on their side. (that plus the western love of sexy revolutionary accessories – che guevara t-shirts, western leaders (see also spain) wearing kefyah and other nonsense. please.

    we will eventually proportion ourselves out of existence. they know what they want. they can wait.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    RonP

    First let’s take a look at ‘democracy’. Democracy is a form of government in which the citizens who they want into office. Lately, it seems that it’s been hijacked to automatcially include Western type freedoms.

    I don’t think that the Mullahs nor Iran want ‘world domination’. They DO want to impose their form of theological government in areas where they are. They are not looking to turn the US and say, Norway or Ecuador into Shia strongholds.

    Even al Queda, which is Sunni, is not trying to have a worldwide Muslim theocracy. That’s not defending any of these people.

    The only reasons the US has so much invested in the Middle East is because of oil and because it is the Holy Land for Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Again, that’s not a criticism of the US or Israel.

    Robert – you seem to have answered your own question. I’d add that if we insisted on democracy in those regions, we’d see elected officials like you seen in Hamas or Hezbollah in Lebanon. Or the cabinet member in Iraq who said the reason they are now having sectarian strife in Iraq is due to “Jews and the sons of Jews”.

    Again, to me, ‘democracy’ isn’t the answer. Because ‘democracy’ doesn’t mean we’ll see a bunch of governments with values that we now think are attatched to the D word – liberty, equality, peace, freedom, etc.

  • RonP

    Jonathan:

    do you ever read the missives from al-queda? they seem to refer to a worldwide caliphate that specifically includes europe. since that’s where i live it makes me nervous. should i not take them at their word? you seem to understand their motives and mission better than i do. if democracy is not the answer then what is. sorry i don’t buy the relativism.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Democracy won’t ensure freedom.

    A long time ago I had a college professor tell me that quite often in developing countries, people are first loyal to their family, then to their tribe or sect, and then lastly to their country. Many of these countries were carved out by colonial powers with little regard for the populace. That’s one of the reasons we’re seeing internal strife in Iraq.

    But to your point, I’ve seen only (and this doesn’t mean that I’m right by any means) reports that al Queda wants to establish a caliphate in muslim lands – the northern third of African through south Asia. Also, in Spain, because that had been heavily Muslim through the late 1400’s. They don’t care about other ares, at least internally. But if you say that you’ve seen those missives…I’ll fully take your word for it.

    Either way, they still need to be stopped.

    Back to democracy. That means majority rule. But it doesn’t necessarily mean freedom of the press or even of religion.

    What I’m saying is that, while I prefer democracy for these countries, I don’t think it necessarily means that they will become beacons of freedom. If the majority want an official state religion, or to oppress religious or ethnic minorities, and they vote in candidates that support those views, then it still is a democracy.

    Here in the states, a largely Christian country, we have some who seem to want to make it a theocratic democracy. By that, I’m not saying that laws based on some greater Judeo-Christian ethic, but what I would call loosely defined religious doctrine. That doesn’t necessarily threaten the right to vote, but it does affect liberty and freedom if those laws end up restricting others in their daily lives. Luckily, we have a Constitution that ensures rights.

    But back to the issue at hand. I don’t think that if all of these countries suddenly allowed their citizens to vote, we’d see freedom bloom. Peace with Israel. We’d likely see more Hamas’ and Hezbollahs gain office. Again, loyalty first to family, then to tribe, then to country. The ‘western’ view of pluralism and tolerance may not be the result we see.

  • penny

    We seem to have no problem telling Iraq and Cuba what kind of government they should have (or Haiti, either).

    Robert, the Iraqis in an open and free election have determined their government. They were given choices. They voted. As change is needed, they will vote again. A remarkably fair and simple formula that we have enjoyed for four hundred years. New to them. Old to us.

    Do you object to the US consistently denouncing Castro? Cubans haven’t had a free election in decades. Fidel has defined their government. What’s your point?

    I’m still waiting for someone to explain why the US and the EU are not supporting (insisting on?) democracy in Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the rest of the Gulf states?

    A successful democratic and secular Iraq in the center of the ME, as Bush has repeated often, will have a pro-democracy influence on the neighboring regimes. People covet their neighbors superior comforts and freedoms. The EU has a vested interest in keeping the status quo. No help from them.

    It’s a little naive, isn’t it, to assume we can change every place in the world for the better. It seems smarter to intervene when an opportunity presents itself like Iraq.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    JT said:

    Democracy won’t ensure freedom.

    I’m not sure I understand the distinction. In a democracy decisions are made by the choice of the majority, that is they are free to chose their political leaders. Democracy suffers from a couple of potential pitfalls the most dangerous being the suppression of the rights of the minority by the majority. There is no foolproof protection against this, but a properly formulated constituion will try to prevent the worst excesses.

    Another popular theme seems to be that if free elections were to be held in, say Saudi Arabia, the population would chose a new dictatorship. No evidence for this has been presented so far.

    The issue of the Palestinians is a unique case in that all the political “parties” represent extremists of one sort or another. After 30 years of Arafat the population decided to try something else, but they were only presented with false choices. The area is not a democracy as is commonly meant, even if it did have elections. A democracy also requires stable democratic instituions like courts, a legislature, a police force controlled by the government and the absence of independent militias. Palestine is missing all of these.

    There has also been no evidence presented to show how large these radical groups are. The thousands of people streaming out of southern Lebanon instead of staying to fight would seem to indicate, for example, that they don’t have widespread support.

    Quoting the most extreme Muslim agitators as proof that there is a fundamental intractable movement toward world domination by Islam is just as distorted as quoting James Dobson or the like as representing the mainstream of Christian thought.

    What is happening is a set of ideas is being planted in the US population (just in time for the elections) that the world is in great, immediate, peril from “Islamic Fundamentalists” who can reach into every corner of the world and do what they will. In addition the states of the region are incapable of supporting peaceful democratic regimes because there is something deficient in these people which makes their hopes and aspirations different from other oppressed people in the world.

    People who are prosperous and live in a stable, democratic society don’t generally worry about the social conditions elsewhere. By putting an overlay of Christian crusades on the issues of the middle east the administration is trying to turn a battle of raw materials into a religious war. This is, of course, a more acceptable justification for wholesale slaughter than a naked grab for oil.

    Given the confluence of events, the apocalyptic vision being used on relgious and right wing broadcasts, and the strains on the middle class the effort to scapegoat Muslims may succeed.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Robert

    You say

    “In a democracy decisions are made by the choice of the majority, that is they are free to chose their political leaders. Democracy suffers from a couple of potential pitfalls the most dangerous being the suppression of the rights of the minority by the majority. There is no foolproof protection against this, but a properly formulated constituion will try to prevent the worst excesses…A democracy also requires stable democratic instituions like courts, a legislature, a police force controlled by the government and the absence of independent militias. Palestine is missing all of these.”

    I disagree. That seems to be a post 9/11 definition of democracy. Hamas was elected in a democratic election. Le’s say a fledgling democracy had courts, a legislature, a police force controlled by the gov’t, an no independent militias. That doesn’t mean that they would have a fully free press or that different types of minorities would not suffer from state sanctioned discrimination.

    I am not against us trying to spread democracy. But democracy without liberty, while still being a democracy, can result in another form of autocracy. What is needed is the idea of liberty to be introduced. Minority rights and such.

    I agree with you about the Islamic red-herring as if it is an immediate threat. But it is a threat in many areas.

  • chico haas

    Additionally, Jonathon, as you correctly said earlier, in developing nations, loyalties are to family, sect, country. If it ever gets to country. The kind of democracy we think of has a sense of nationalism built in. Little nationalism appears to be evident in Iraq – one of our miscalculations. Toppling one repressive government for democratic elections doesn’t mean another one isn’t voted in. Providing democratic elections in such places courts disappointment.

    The best way to avoid foreign entanglements is traditional American foreign policy: whomever we can do business with – that we can almost stomach – is good enough. Until we can’t stomach them, then we subvert the nation and try another business partner…er…leader.

  • penny

    “What is happening is a set of ideas is being planted in the US population (just in time for the elections) that the world is in great, immediate, peril from “Islamic Fundamentalists” who can reach into every corner of the world and do what they will”……….”I agree with you about the Islamic red-herring as if it is an immediate threat. But it is a threat in many areas. “

    Ya really think?……..the Munich Olympics, the hostage taking at the US Embassy in Tehran, the Beirut Embassy bombing, the USS Cole, 9/11, Beslan, Bali, Darfur, the Moscow theater hostages, the London underground bombings, the Madrid train bombings, the Sinai resort bombings, the Taliban’s history in Afghanistan, riots in Paris, cartoon riots with the Danish embassy set on fire, tourists killed in Egypt, Buddhist statues blown to bits, non-Muslim continually murdered in Indonesia, Iran’s 24/7 message that it will wipe Israel off the face of the earth, the murders in a Seattle Jewish center yesterday, etc……..

    Let’s see if I get this straight, Islamofascism is a “planted” idea and a “red herring”? So how does the partial list I’ve provided above of Islamic Murder and Mayhem, Inc. fit into your premise of the government planting the idea of an Islamofascist menace upon the gullible public?

    Take your time. And, try to stay with that specific question. Drivel not acceptable.

  • RonP

    thank you penny. i feel the casandra syndrome coming on.

  • http://www.tyndallreport.com Andrew Tyndall

    Penny–

    When there are so many Moslems living all across the globe, any list in any category is going to be long…but only anecdotal.

    For example, your Islamic Mayhem and Murder, Inc can match up against Moslems Get Constantly Picked On, Inc.

    My team for MGCPO:

    Occupation of West Bank and Gaza
    Partition of Kashmir
    Massacres at Sabra and Chatilla
    Ethnic Cleansing of Marsh Arabs
    Repression of Kurds (by both Baath and Turks)
    Siege of Sarajevo
    Destruction of Grozny
    Immiseration in banlieus of Paris
    Crackdown against Uighurs
    Genocide in Darfur (qualifies on both lists)
    blah, blah, blah

    As Kat wisely reminded us earlier, by far the greatest number of casualties incurred in global terrorism are residents of the Islamic World not the rest of us living outside it.

    Your list does not prove that Islamofascism is a “great, immediate, peril” and mine does not prove its opposite (although I’ll wager you that there are more Moslem dead on my list than those killed by Moslems on yours).

    All either demonstrates is that lists are easy to make.

  • penny

    Moslems Get Constantly Picked On, Inc.

    Cry me a river. Most of your list is inaccurate, an opinion as to the aggressors were or out of context. If my list doesn’t give you the global scope of Islamofascism, factually uncontested, with its escalating violence and savagery toward innocent civilians, than you are an idiot.

    All that you have demonstratd is how savage Islam is internally and externally.

    Being an apologist for them with your unsuccessful attempt at equivalency and portrayal of Muslims as “contantly picked on”(the root cause of their violence we are to surmise) makes you more than an idiot, rather an amoral slob incapable of identifying evil in its newest incarnation.

    Lots of people in this planet’s history are/were poor and picked on and didn’t respond with murder and mayhem toward others. Why don’t you research that list?

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Hey Penny. Last night, BECAUSE I SAID I HAD SOME CONCERN FOR THE LIVES OF INNOCENT LEBANESE, you called me a creep and to me to go crawl back under a rock. You equated every Lebanese killed as being a member of Hezbollah. You are nothing but a bigot.

    You said, “the Munich Olympics, the hostage taking at the US Embassy in Tehran, the Beirut Embassy bombing, the USS Cole, 9/11, Beslan, Bali, Darfur, the Moscow theater hostages, the London underground bombings, the Madrid train bombings, the Sinai resort bombings, the Taliban’s history in Afghanistan, riots in Paris, cartoon riots with the Danish embassy set on fire, tourists killed in Egypt, Buddhist statues blown to bits, non-Muslim continually murdered in Indonesia, Iran’s 24/7 message that it will wipe Israel off the face of the earth, the murders in a Seattle Jewish center yesterday, etc……..”

    None of those terrorist acts are not about Muslim world domination. Munich wasn’t about establishing a world caliphate. For that matter, Arafat’s wife was a Christian. As have been other PLO officials. As a whole, they are not looking to have a one religion world. The Taliban didn’t care that Guatemala was largely Catholic or Iceland is largely Lutheran.

    Yes, that’s a red herring. And no, I’m not defending them.

  • bit torrent

    The fact that something serious can’t attract the attention of the American public without it being put into the context of a Star Trek or The Simpsons episode is part of the problem.

  • Kat

    She may have been an ex-Christian, but she isn’t one now. She said if she had a son she’d send him to be a suicide bomber–that sounds muslamic to me. Anyone who marries a muslim becomes one–there is no going the other way–that’s apostasy and that’s death…chop chop.

  • Eileen

    All of you here who wish upon wish that Islam DOESN’T intend to dominate the world, according to their own CLEARLY stated intentions regarding establishing a global caliphate – are idiots. Sorry, but you need to learn a Whole Lot More about Islam. I view you as first graders. I was incredulous, too, at one point. And then I read more….and more….and more.

    There are 1.5 billion – give or take – Muslims on the globe. Some percent are ‘active’ bombers and beheaders, or individual murderers at Jewish centers in Seattle, or those who crawled all over John Howard’s car today. [They really are swarmers...on blogs, on cars...Why? Because their Imams tell them to.] Another percent give money. Another percent give shelter, clothing and other forms of support. But ALL Muslims, if they are ‘true believers’ are REQUIRED to support JIHAD in one form or another.

    So, how many FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS are there, really?

    1.5 billion.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Take your time. Inhale.

    Will the events that unfold before or on August 22nd open your eyes and ears? I highly, highly doubt it, even then. You can pretend all you want, but that isn’t about to be your reality.

    I promise you this much: your ‘efforts’ at wishful obfuscation in support of your political agendas will not bring the rest of us down with you.

    Why? Because the governments of the U.S., Canada, Britain, Australia and Israel will save your scrawny, first grade, delusional, uneducated butts.

    If I were a jihadi, I’d take note of that particular fact; i.e., who’s onto you. (The Gates of Vienna were only a whisper of what Islam will soon face!) And if I were a terrorist apologist I’d take note of these facts, too.

  • Eileen

    P.S.

    Dates are ‘big’ in Islam. Does anyone know why the 9/11 atrocities occurred, specifically, on 9/11? If you don’t, you have more reading to do.

    August 22, 2006 is another ‘big date’ in Islam.

    My prayers for infidels everywhere….

  • LanceThruster

    Dates and other numerical correlations are big as far as symbolism goes with Jewish Israelis as well.

    The invasion of Iraq was began during the time of Purim (a bit of a kiss blown from its US enablers), and the 82′ invasion of Lebanon in response to US warnings not to plunge the region into war was answered by Sharon with aerial bombardments initiated at 2:42 and 3:38 (the #’s of particular UN resolutions that Israel remains in defiance of).

    Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate resistance groups and their support is growing. Israel’s disproportionate responses (the correct one would be a prisoner exchange though Israel’s capture of Arabs as bargaining chips is also disproportionate – at least 3000 to 1) are making them less safe and creating a much broader support for resistance.

    Israel never seems to fail in their ignorance of the law of unintended consequences. Except in this case they welcome the chaos in order to further paint the other side as beyond reasoning with and justify their policy of Lebanese Holocaust for Israeli Lebensraum.

  • penny

    Lancethruster, being the terrorist sympathizer that you are, answer me this, what country would tolerate for months missiles lobbed upon its civilians from its neighbor? And how stupid can you be to lob those missiles and never expect consequences?

    Lebanese Holocaust? Nice hyperbole. But, it disqualifies you as a serious thinker.

    None of those terrorist acts are not about Muslim world domination

    I see. They were all isolated events, coincidentally on a global scale, and having no relationship to the perpetrator’s unifying religious dogma of jihad and dhimmitude. Why don’t you educate yourself, read Bernard Lewis, an established Arab scholar, his books are very insightful regarding Islam’s history of expansion, forced conversion and intolerance toward non-Muslims. Read Bat Ye’or too. She’s also a distinguished Arab scholar. You really don’t seem to have put much time into educating yourself about Islam beyond parroting the MSM headlines and shallow multi-culti memes. Hitler’s fascism was initially perceived as just a regional problem too.

  • Juan Golblado

    What about dramatic reanactments showing Hezbullah’s ways of using civilians? Western journalists have to cover this story.

    Israel has to wage a war for public opinion. After Qana it should have immediately hit out with a press release outlining why Hezbullah was to blame for it.

    It should be using its technology (e.g. its drones and its video cameras) and its intelligence assets to document convincingly how Hezbullah sets up civilians for the kill.

    If it could capture visual evidence that Hezbullah is preparing the ground for some of these civilian casualties — from guiding people into unsafe places of refuge, to planting rocket launchers beside houses and other civilian structures, to carrying their families around with them when they flee military areas (like rocket-launching sites).

    All of these things have been suggested by snippets of msm news coverage, both of Hezbullah and of Hamas in Gaza, and the IDF has made specific statements about such things.

    But no one — NO ONE — has made any effort to investigate and report on this crucial aspect of Hezbullah’s tactics. It is crucial because of the importance to Hezbullah to win the war of public opinion and it is crucial in that exposing it convincingly a few times will turn the tables on Hezbullah.

    Even the IDF just makes its dry statement and then moves on. It has to do PR! It can do its own press releases. And western journalists can do renactments based on IDF statements if it’s too dangerous to gather the information first hand. That wouldn’t be quite as good but it would at least be a good beginning.

    This situation endangers everybody in the West. See Hezbullah’s statement that “we will not foget this massacre”. Remember its operatives across the world. See Iran’s similar statements and remember how much money it has to put into terrorist attacks across the civilized world.

    Take note that all the anti-westerners living in the west and elsewhere will have a propensity to accept terrorist attacks against us given their belief that the west is heedlessly killing innocent civilians. Even our own protectors will drop their guard.

    We’ve got to have some investigative reporting out of Lebanon, now! And we’re not getting it. The journalists who are there are so far up Hezbullah’s ass it’s no wonder they stink.

  • Michael

    ‘With disproportionalism becoming the meme of choice in the discussion of the Israel/fight’

    First, Israel refuses to call it a war, if it did, it would already be guilty of war crimes (boming of civilian populations and civilian infrastructure like power stations).

    The audience here is coming from a western discourse and to be honest knowns nothing about why Hezbollah is fighting (prisoners, Sheeba Farms). People here seem to think the people of Lebanon were asking for this. They are under the same illusion that some in the UK were about the IRA -that all Northern irish Catholics were in the IRA or were sympathetic. Many of the the attacks in N.Ireland were cross border attacks.

    Did the British governemnt attack the Republic of Ireland and destroy Dublin and launch raids accross the border killing hundreds and displacing hundreds of thousands. No, and the world would not have allowed it – not in Europe – the US would have stopped it in a second. Yet, the world stands back as Israel does exactly that. Why, because they (as many reders here) do not equate one Israeli life with one Lebanese life.

  • Juan Golblado

    The people of Lebanon, including the Shiite of southern Lebanon, are being used by Iranian-sponsored Hezbullah. And the western press is ignorning it.

    Go around to Lebanese blogs and you will find that Hezbullah has been running off people that didn’t support it from southern Lebanese villages for the past six years. Those non-supporters who remain are thoroughly intimidated.

    And now the western press is afraid to investigate Hezbullah. It won’t even cover Israeli Defence Force press releases such as this one:

    Senior officer: 150 rockets launched at Israel from Qana

    Chief of the IDF Operations Branch, Maj. Gen. Gadi Eisnkot, said in a press conference that “the IDF operated against terrorist target in Qana. The village has been used, since the onset of the confrontation, as a refuge for terror and a launch site for some 150 rockets
    at Israel, in some 30 volleys.”

    According to the general: “Since the first day of the fighting, we warned residents of southern Lebanon that they should distance themselves from terror operatives and launch sites, for their own safety. We dropped pamphlets, announced it in the media and operated in a gradual manner and, unfortunately, Saturday night civilians were killed, whom no one had the intention of attacking.” (ynet)

    I just searched Google News for the name of the general giving the briefing: 0 hits. ZERO hits. The media that Google searches has not covered the IDF press statement – at all!

    “Western discourse”, indeed. One could wish that the IDF would defend itself a bit better on the public opinion front but they are apparently old-school officers who think that is not part of their job. Hezbullah certainly makes it part of their job, don’t they?

    Why does our western press not ask why Hezbullah was keeping those civilians holed up there for the past two weeks? Let us ask Hezbullah why it launched rockets from right next to the destroyed building. Could it be the Hezbullah wanted to get that building’s coordinates in the IDF’s sights?

    Let us ask Hezbullah why there were so many rescue workers hanging around in Qana just when the bomb hit. Could it be they were standing there – knowing that rockets had been fired recently from Qana near civilian concentrations – waiting to dig out the victims so the television cameras could get good bloody footage?

    We’ve got to turn this thing around and ask some penetrating questions to the people who are running the show in Qana, and that is unfortunately still Hezbullah.

  • Juan Golblado

    Sorry to post so much. This will be my last for a while. I found some photos smuggled from behind Lebanon’s battle lines, showing Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons. (Australia’s Sunday Herald Sun)

    Photos that damn Hezbollah

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Juan

    Those photos don’t damn Hezbollah. There barely show an a nondespript building. And the press has long been talking about Hezbollah working/hiding amongst civilians. That is well known.

    Both sides think that the media is favoring the other.

  • Juan Golblado

    The pictures show an apartment building with laundry hanging out on the line, and a rocket battery yards away.

    Hezbullah is trying to draw fire on to civilian targets because Israel gets damned for it. It’s the next big thing after suicide bombers.

  • Eileen

    Jonathan,

    But Of Course They Do!

    “The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

    Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

    The photographs, from the CHRISTIAN AREA OF WADI CHAHROUR IN THE EAST OF BEIRUT (emphasis added), were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.”

    And note they’re firing from a densely populated Christian area so that retaliatory IDF strikes will destroy CHRISTIAN neighborhoods and – they hope – Christian civilians.

    Spit.

  • penny

    Did the British government attack the Republic of Ireland and destroy Dublin and launch raids across the border killing hundreds and displacing hundreds of thousands.

    Give me a break. The IRA was condemned and outlawed by the Irish Republic and the vast majority of its citizens were not aiding and abetting the IRA. Ulster was a essentially a limited regional problem with its terrorists not welcome in the Republic. Britain would never have had a reason to “destroy” Dublin.

    Any comparison to the situation with Lebanon is ludicrous. For starters, the Lebanese government lost control over southern Lebanon years ago. It hasn’t governed southern Lebanon for years. Syria does by proxy. It essentially ceded the area to Hezbollah knowing full well what they were up to. You’ve got to be braindead to think that allowing Hezbollah to lob missiles into Israel for months wouldn’t have consequences a some point. You’ve got to be braindead to think that any nation is going to permit its citizens to be terrorized without using force to stop it.

    Look up some facts before you post illogical drivel.

  • LanceThruster

    penny – No terrorist sympathizer I. Rather, I support the side waging a war of resistance against Zionist terrorists.

    You pretend not to know or are ignorant of the facts about the “start” of this recent confrontation. It was not rockets but the captured IOF according to Israelis although this ignores their prior provocations. Not only had Israel occupied parts of southern Lebanon, (Shaaba farms?) to exert control of water resources, they were regularly making incursions on Lebanese territory. They hold many Lebanese as prisoners with no outcry; women and children too. Hezbollah also acted in solidarity with Hamas, whose democratically elected leaders were being arrested and murdered along with anyone within bomb-shot of them. The family on the Gaza beach was wiped out, other Palestinians had recently been kidnapped, and Israel was buzzing Gaza airspace to create sonic booms to torment to populace.

    The do not share water resources equitably from the regions they stole and occupy, they crush any economic prosperity of the region and basic freedoms are trampled on at will. They are stealing more land, authorizing more illegal settlements, and spouting their racist rhetoric in defense of a Lebanese Holocaust. Was it a Jewish Holocaust because all the Jews were killed? Was the Warsaw ghetto the only instance of brutality and subjugation against the Jews? Did it matter to the Germans whether the Jews went way or were murdered? Same with Israel’s treatment of the Lebanese.

    Israel lied (what else is new?) about the pretext for war (the POW’s). If a vast majority of Israelis support the attacks on Lebanon, then they all (according to Israeli logic) share the collective guilt and are fair targets. Anyone killed not IOF reserve or not pro-Zionist is, as Israel so often rationalizes, collateral damage.

    If Israel had any honor, knowing many, many Americans do not support their war crimes, could Israel please please please murder people on their own dime? I’m sure a good many Jewish philanthropists would be willing to offer up large chunks of their fortunes to wage war on Israel’s enemies, no?

    As it stands, the US is also a legitimate target of Arab resistance forces because we have not done enough to stay Israel’s bloody hand and are ourselves collectively guilty.

  • penny

    I support the side waging a war of resistance against Zionist terrorists.

    I stopped at that sentence. Whatever else you wrote was wasted. You and I really have nothing more to say to each other.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Oh boy, here I go.

    Eileen

    No, those three pictures don’t prove anything. You really can’t see pictures that damn Hezbollah. And I also disagree with Juan’s theory that the media hasn’t shown Hezbollah operating out of civilian areas. I’ve heard and seen many reports of that. On TV, with Hezbollah fighters operating out of bombed out areas with civilians – women – running around scared. So yes, it has been very much reported that about Hezbollah (Lance’s buddies).

    Spit.

    Now, if you excuse me, I’m going to take on Lance.

    Lance,

    These legitimate freedom fighters…these Hezbollah guys, the ones that call for the disappearance of Israel, who bombed the US Marine barracks in 1983, killing 241 Americans, who seemingly applauded Assad’s stranglehold on Lebanon and were fine with Harriri’s assassination…are terrorists. Sure, they run legitimate social programs. Sure, the Shiia have been oppressed – usually by secular Sunni regimes like Saddam Hussein’s. But no, Lance, they ain’t a ‘legitimate resistance movement’. They are terrorists, pure and simple. Spit.

    Penny

    You’re favoritie creep here. I agree with your recent post abut Ireland. Lance’s comparison doesn’t really hold water because Lebanon hasn’t had a real government in 30+ years. And I respect you’re being offended at Lance’s assertion that Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance group and that Israel is nothing but Zionist terrorists.

  • LanceThruster

    Mr. Trenn – You do realize don’t you that Zionist leaders (many of them Israeli govt. heads) are on record with their goals of Arab/Muslim ethnic cleansing, transfer, and inferior status. Israel insists on being recognized without having defined borders, a status no other nation shares to my knowledge.

    We (our govt, our military) killed over a million Vietnamese for a failed objective and now interact with the country despite our decade long terror campaign. It is tragic that US Marines were put in between players in a regional conflict, especially when they seem to overwhelmingly favor one side.

    This brings us to current events. Israel (though claiming to seek peace) has scores of Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners (incl women and children) kept in appalling conditions, no charges, often tortured, no legal counsel, status seldom known. Israel had kidnapped some more civilians prior to the capture of IOF forces. Israel cries about Arab militants targetting civilians, but when they actually attack legitimate military targets and capture soldiers (the settler killed could be considered an invader – plus he was enrolled in a war college of some sort – also solid military affiliation), Israel goes berzerk and lashes out at everything and anything. They declare all inhabitants as terrorists/Hezbollah if they remain in their homes and not flee. Nice try but intl law does not recognize such a distinction.

    The French Resistance had popular approval (though many were angered by suffering the repercussions) and yet not all supported its leadership post war. Hezbollah first has to repel the invader, then the power dynamic can be worked out. Their support of other factions in the region are also on par with many other groups who are selective in their affiliations. As for Harriri, to consider Mossad as potential suspect is not unreasonable. Both Hezbollah have a political/social services wing and a militia/military wing. Hell, Israel claims to operate from a higher standard but they cut Hamas off at the knees from the get-go though they won a democratic election (the march of freedom, remember?). Killed (with civilian collateral damage), kidnapped, arrested, prevented from travelling/meeting, shut off funds (keeps the interest – always the thief), armed the corrupt and infiltraited Fatah, all to hamstring legitimate Hamas elected officials because Israel cannot bear to allow other govts/”countries” to have agendas not in *Israel’s* interests…and you have the nerve to omit Israel from the list of terror states?

    Arabs have deeply rooted blood feuds, and as an atheist I reject their religionism and theocratic entanglings, yet the choice is largely theirs. Also, Israel has many of the same religionist traits. Yet that being the case, that neither side is fully rational, nor without their own share of blame, I still feel Israel has committed a greater wrong in their dealing with the displaced communities as well as their continual encroachment and usurping of resources (particulary water) that doesn’t belong to them but they have enough military might to control.

    So, I reject your selective designations of terrorists and good guys. Here’s something that’s “pure and simple” (gob). Joseph Heller, author of Catch-22 defined the concept on cable TV’s “Great Books” series.
    He said, “Catch-22 means people have the right to do to you anything that you cannot prevent them from doing.” These groups are born as a reaction to Israeli heavy-handedness and dishonest dealing. If Israel seeks good neighbors, they should first BE a good neighbor. All they sow seems to be hatred, and they act as if they couldn’t care less.

    Finally, this excerpt relates to the military disparity. [from: http://www.williambowles.info/ 07/18/06

    “Hedges is typical of the Western ‘intellectual’ whose, ‘plague on both your houses’ approach avoids the sticky moral issues involved that comes down to the simple fact that the imperial mindset is so deeply embedded in Western ‘civilisation’ that Hedges can longer see the simple truth; that of an imperialist state using, as it has done for centuries, sheer brute force to subdue all who oppose it.

    Apologists like Hedges engage in a verbal sleight-of-hand when dealing with all who are not white, Euro-Americans, engaging in the linguistic equivalent of creating a ‘level playing field’, where the players are all allegedly equal, levelled according to Hedges by the use of violence.

    Thus Hizbollah resistance is equal to F-16s and the vast array of military hardware being deployed against it. This may well equip Mr Hedges with some kind of feeling of moral superiority, you know the stuff I mean; all violence is bad, I’m against violence et al.

    What a sorry state of affairs has come to pass when ‘progressives’ are reduced to such an intellectual and ethical state of bankruptcy. Yet perhaps it’s all for the good, as long that is, as we can spot the difference between what passes for progressive and the real thing.

    Now you may ask, and you’d be absolutely right to, ‘what’s the real thing?’ Simplistic as it may sound it comes down to justice, simple justice. When hundreds and thousands of innocents are butchered in the name of ‘civilisation’, there is no way one can equate the reactions of a few, mainly poorly armed and desperate people, with the actions of a state that can kill from a distance with all the dispassion of a bureaucrat.”

  • Eileen

    Lance Thruster/aka Scimitar Slasher,

    You are fucking NUTS. Go find your little goat.

    CUE U.S. CENTCOM.

  • Michael

    Hey Penny, for someone who cant distinguish between Hamas and Hizbollah you certainty can be quick to call other people illogical. I am Irish and I know alot more about the Irish situation than you would ever care to imagine.

    You say ‘”a limited regional problem with its terrorists not welcome in the Republic. Britain would never have had a reason to “destroy” Dublin.”

    What do you mean regional. Violence in Ni. Ireland, Ireland and the UK isnt regional. Anyway, Israel claims its attacks on Lebanon are NOT part of a regional operation (yeah!). BTW, Northern isnt = Ulster as you wrongly state. Three countries of Ulster are in the Republic. Anyway, as you say the UK has no ‘legitimate” reason to destroy Dublin, as Israel doesnt have to destroy Beirut.

    You also forget that Hezbollah is Lebanese. They are Lebanese cotizens, bot Syrians.

    You also incorrectly state that Hezbollah have been firing rockets into Isrrael for months. Wrong. State any citation where they fired rockets into ISrael over the last year BEFORE the crises began two weeks ago. They did not.

    For someone so strident in their statements, you really are very uninformed about world affairs/facts.

    M

  • penny

    I am Irish and I know alot more about the Irish situation than you would ever care to imagine.

    IRA terrorism was confined to Ulster and the UK unlike the WOT. It was regional.

    Being Irish gives you nothing when it comes to being correct on anything. And don’t presume anything about people.

    How’s this sweetie, I’m a graduate of UCD. Touche.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    So, how many FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS are there, really?

    1.5 billion.

    Not only is this remark racist, but it is counter-productive. If one truly believes that all 1.5 billion Muslims are enemies than there is no course of action open to resolving the current tensions.

    Let’s examine the alternatives:
    1. Annihilate the entire world Muslim population. (how?)
    2. Contain the entire Muslim population to specfic regions which we then fence off militarily. (Isn’t this called ethnic cleansing?)
    3. Force them to become non-Muslim (and therefore rational). I suppose the preferred new religion being Christianity. (Which of the 2000 demoninations?)
    4. Another idea I’ve haven’t thought of.

    I think the citation illustrates exactly my point, the are a group of strident people who are trying to turn the actions of a small group of extremists into something representing a diverse world population. It’s called scapegoating, and is the primary tool of nationalistic despots. One would think after the experience with the Nazis and the number of other instances since then the logic of this type of demonization would not be capable of attracting supporters. But, apparently, it still has the old magic.

    If this propaganda effort is successful in the US it will end up giving a free hand to the current administration which will lead to more foreign adventurism and less civil liberty at home.

  • Michael

    ‘a graduate of UCD'; use of the terms ‘ulster'; ‘IRA terrorism'; name ‘Penny’

    That profile says alot about where your coming from!

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Thank you for posting that, Robert.

  • Eileen

    Robert,

    It is neither counterproductive nor ‘rascist’ to state facts about Islam and it’s
    prescriptions requiring jihad against the infidels (unbelievers).

    Here are but a few references:

    ” 8:74-75 Those who believe and migrated from their homes and {Jihad] fought for the Way of Allah, and those who have sheltered them and helped them they are truly the believers. Theirs shall be forgiveness and a generous provision. And those who believed afterwards and emigrated, and {Jihad] struggled with you — they are of you. And in the Book of Allah, the near kinsmen deserve one another (in inheritance). Allah has knowledge of all things.

    9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. ”

    http://www.interesting-information.com/islam/jihad.htm

    See:

    164 Jihad Verses in the Koran – Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War
    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

    From Spencer:

    “Ever since I began doing this work publicly my point has been simple and consistent: that the jihad terrorists are working from mainstream traditions and numerous Qur’anic exhortations, and that by means of these traditions and teachings they are able to gain recruits among Muslims worldwide, and hold the sympathy of others whom they do not recruit. This explains why there has been no widespread, sustained, or sincere Muslim outcry against the jihad terrorist enterprise in general.

    The mainstream media, both liberal and conservative, does not want to face these facts. They think that by speaking about the Islamic roots of jihad violence they will undercut moderate Muslims. But in fact, no reform in Islam can ever take place without an acknowledgment of what needs to be reformed. The near-universal refusal to provide that acknowledgment is just one reason why that reform is virtually certain not to be forthcoming.”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006829.php

    “Moderate Muslims” are those who “have sheltered them and helped them (active jihadists)”, or, as noted by Spencer, hold sympathy for them. I stick by my characterization of all Muslims as being fundamentalists in this regard.

    Spencer refers to reform in Islam as one of those ideas you haven’t thought of, Robert.
    But as long as the infidels fail to become educated about Islam there will be no ‘acknowledgement’, and therefore no hope for reform of the Religion of Bombers and Beheaders.

    How many acts of terrorist jihad will it take across the globe before the unbelievers wise up or take the time to get educated?

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    Eileen:
    So which option do you want to adopt: Extermination, relocation or conversion?

    I should also point out that I could find you just as many quotes of a similar nature from the Bible. All relgions have extremist writings in their traditions, but as their host societies progress they tend to ignore the more radical portions and focus instead on those aspects which fit a stable, non-threatened environment.

    You still haven’t done anything to document how these extremist views represent more than a lunatic fringe nor have you offered any semblance of a course of action. And yes, you still are racist and avoiding the issue. That is counter productive.

  • Eileen

    Islam isn’t a race.

    Yes I’ve answered you on all counts. Please don’t try the tack about the Bible exhorting it’s followers to kill or dhimmify all the ‘unbelievers’. It isn’t reality.

    My ‘option’ is reform, obviously. Do I think it’s likely? No. Realistically, we’ll have to continue to track down the terrorists wherever they hide. And I’m a proponent for education about our enemy: Islam.

    Why don’t you do some reading, Robert? Need to get to work.

  • http://robertdfeinman.com/society Robert Feinman

    My ‘option’ is reform, obviously.

    What exactly is reform? Reform of Islam? Reform of local governments? How do we go about doing this? Also how do we “educate” the people? Do we send in teams of teachers? What do they teach? Who pays for it?

    What we can do is promote democracy in the region. This can be via a large number of “soft” initiatives, including trade policies, support of democratic institutions and key local leaders and putting restrictions on the current corrupt oligarchs. Do we have any interest in this? No. We are perfectly happy with Saudi Arabia or Kuwait as long as the oil flows.

    Sorry, you are right, you are not a racist. Just a bigot.

  • Eileen

    And you’re an asshole.

    No more time to play with you…

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Well, I’ve had enough here. I’ve been called a ‘creep’ who should crawl back under a rock for expressing concern about Lebanese civilians, ‘spit’ on for saying that specific pictures of Hezbollah don’t prove that they are acting from civilian areas – even though I believe that to be true.

    I have to say that as someone who is more pro-Israeli than not, it alarms me how much of the hatred on this forum is coming from pro-Israeli people. Every person killed in Lebanaon is a terrorist from Hezbollah, every Muslim is either a jihadist terrorist or a moderate, but fundamentalist who supports the terrorists in some way or another.

    Go find your little goat? What does that mean?

    Disagree with some aspect of what Israel is doing? You’re automatically an anti-Semite.

    In the end, I hope that hatred on this forum doesn’t end up driving our political process, because it doesn’t seem rational. Our enemy is not Islam. It is our mutual hatred.

  • Eileen

    Jonathan,

    I was spitting on the concept that Hezbollah drives their munitions into Christian – as opposed to Muslim – neighborhoods in order to try to destroy THEM with retaliatory fire, which is doubly diabolical…not at you. Is that more or less diabolical than using U.N installations to launch

    When you directed spit at me I ignored it. You may not agree that all Muslims are required to support jihad in some fashion or another, but that’s what you’d learn if you spent any time becoming educated about Islam. Which is why Spencer stated, …” my point has been simple and consistent: that the jihad terrorists are working from mainstream traditions and numerous Qur’anic exhortations, and that by means of these traditions and teachings they are able to gain recruits among Muslims worldwide, and hold the sympathy of others whom they do not recruit. This explains why there has been no widespread, sustained, or sincere Muslim outcry against the jihad terrorist enterprise in general.”

    I am not concerned that you don’t wish to take my word for it. I am, though, alarmed at the number of terrorist apologists who clearly are uneducated about our enemy to the extent they aren’t even aware our enemy IS ISLAM.

    How many attacks will it take for you to understand that THEIR hatred of the infidels is what drives their barbarism and fuels their jihad? There’s plenty of information out there if you choose to become educated.

    You seem like a bright guy and I hope you will.

  • Eileen

    Sorry for that incomplete sentence. I was going to provide other examples of the jihadist methodology, but don’t /didn’t have time to go there.

  • penny

    ‘a graduate of UCD’; use of the terms ‘ulster’; ‘IRA terrorism’; name ‘Penny’

    That profile says alot about where your coming from!

  • penny

    Sorry, that post escaped me. Let’s try again.

    a graduate of UCD’; use of the terms ‘ulster’; ‘IRA terrorism’; name ‘Penny’

    That profile says alot about where your coming from

    Hardly. Because there isn’t one.

    It doesn’t say anything but that you are a gamey gutter snipe. My UCD degree and first name mean nothing other than calling your bs with impunity and facts, as I will, so what’s your point?

    Hey, Michael, your snarky little anti-semitic Irish act got outed – that venial Catholic knee-jerk reaction. Ouch. The same little Irish act that has always been “neutral” to the world biggest creeps like Hitler. Here’s one Galway girl that’s disgusted with your type.

    Google your ass off. Whatever. It’s pointless.

  • Michael

    Penny,
    I would take note of the title of Jeff’s post: ‘Disproportionalism’

    M

  • LanceThruster

    Mr. Trenn – Despite our differences, your observations about recognizing the common humanity of victims from both sides are much appreciated. You have taken the high ground and are to be emulated.

  • Eileen

    Regarding that ‘expectation’ for all Muslims to support jihad? Don’t take my word for it; take theirs:

    “IRAN CLERIC CALLS ON MUSLIMS TO ARM HIZBOLLAH

    Tue Aug 1, 2006 8:11am ET

    TEHRAN (Reuters) – Muslim nations should arm Hizbollah in its fight against Israel, Iran’s influential hardline clerical politician Ahmad Jannati said on Tuesday.

    Iran has repeatedly said it only provides moral support to Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas [ahahaha] and there was no immediate sign that Iran’s official policy [regarding lying] has changed.

    Israel accuses Iran of providing Hizbollah with missiles used against civilian and military targets.

    “WE ARE EXPECTING MUSLIM NATIONS TO PROVIDE VARIOUS KINDS OF SUPPORT, INCLUDING ARMS, MEDICINE AND FOOD TO HIZBOLLAH,” [emphasis added] he told the students news agency ISNA.

    Jannati heads the Guardian Council, Iran’s constitutional watchdog composed of six clerics and six hardline lawyers.”

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-08-01T121056Z_01_L01894728_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-ARMS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

    ‘Moral Support’
    Arms
    Money
    Medicine
    Food
    Shelter
    Clothing
    Propaganda
    Taqiyya trash talk
    Etc.

    All good Muslims can find SOME way to support their brothers in jihad. After all, an “influential hardline clerical politician” told them to, reinforcing tenets of the Koran.

    I know, it’s just a teeny, tiny, fringe element…

  • Eileen

    Here is a “booklet” on the requirements of jihad, written by Imam Shaheed Hassan Al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    It contains the following subsections:

    Preface
    ***ALL MUSLIMS MUST MAKE JIHAD***
    The Qur’an on Jihad
    The Ahaadeeth on Jihad
    The Scholars on Jihad
    Why Do the Muslims Fight?
    Mercy in the Islamic Jihad
    Associated Matters Concerning Jihad
    Epilogue

    A taste:

    “All Muslims Must Make Jihad

    Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded. Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of the martyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have acted similarly and who have modelled themselves upon the martyrs in their performance of jihad can join them in this reward.”  

    http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/

    And here’s an article regarding an on-line magazine devoted to jihad by another teeny, tiny fringe element: Muslim women.

    Here’s a taste:

    “The editorial in al-Khansa’s first issue says that “martyrdom for the sake of Allah” and gaining “the pleasure of Allah and His Paradise” should be the goal of women. It draws attention to the support that women extend to the jihadis. “We stand shoulder to shoulder with our men, supporting them, helping them, and backing them up. We educate their sons and we prepare ourselves. May Allah know of the honesty of our intentions and of our good deeds, and [may He] choose us and make us martyrs for His sake …”

    The magazine sees no contradiction between being a woman/mother and being a jihadi at the same time. The editorial says: “We will stand covered by our veils and wrapped in our robes, weapons in hand, our children in our laps, with the Koran and the Sunna of the Prophet of Allah directing and guiding us. The blood of our husbands and the body parts of our children are the sacrifice by means of which we draw closer to Allah, so that through us, Allah will cause the martyrdom for His sake to succeed.” ”

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FI15Ak02.html

    I truly wish I was making this stuff up.

    Please read, read and read some more. Know thy enemy.

  • http://www.digitalstreetjournal.com Jonathan Trenn

    Eileen

    I said I wasn’t going to do this, but here goes…

    First though, thank you for your kind comments Lance.

    Now the Muslim Brotherhood is a radical organization. And I’ve never said or felt that radical Islam is a teeny weeny problem.

    From Wikipedia re Jihad:

    Jihad
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jihad, sometimes spelled Jahad, Jehad, Jihaad or Djehad, (Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root ǧhd (“to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle”), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle to further the Islamic cause. Individuals involved in the political or military forms of jihad are often labeled with the neologism “jihadist”.

    The term “jihad” is often rendered in western languages and non-Islamic cultures as “holy war”, but this “physical” struggle, which encompasses religion, only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty, or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad can be called a mujahid (in plural: mujahadin) (Arabic: striver, struggler), a term even more often applied to groups who practice armed struggle in the name of Islam. Such a person might engage in fighting as a military struggle for religious reasons, or for example, struggle to memorize the Qur’an. Despite this, jihad maintains a negative connotation and reputation in much of the West, on par with the reaction to the Christian term crusade in much of the Islamic world.

    Classifications of Jihad by Muslims
    Jihad has been classified either as al-jihād al-akbar (the greater jihad), the struggle against one’s soul (nafs), or al-jihād al-asgar (the lesser jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.

    Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God) [1]:

    Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
    Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), and political or military propaganda.
    Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as military and medical sciences).
    Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one’s wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
    Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).

  • Eileen

    Jonathan,

    I’m quite sure no matter what I might offer you’d find some way to continue pretending that it’s only ‘radical’ Muslims which believe in their duties to support jihad. There’s plenty of material out there which states otherwise. And what are they preaching in their mosques? There’s plenty of material out there about that, too. I also don’t have time to provide references regarding the depth and influence of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Middle East and beyond but I invite you to research it.

    That clerical politician wasn’t directing his words today regarding ‘expectations’ to only the ‘radical Muslims’ of ‘all Muslim nations’.

    I invite you to keep reading. By the way, I didn’t see who contributed to that wiki article, but remember the taqiyya factor.

  • Pingback: BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Making war look worse

  • RichJ

    The nation of Israel is in violation of U.N. Security Council resolutions going back to 1967 (#242). It has not relinquished territory that it conquered.
    All peoples have the legal right to fight against military occupation. The people of Lebanon were on solid legal ground when they attacked Israeli soldiers, because Israel is still in possession of Lebanese territory, despite the U.N. resolutions.
    Then Israel waged offensive war against Lebanon, and fighters belonging to Hezbullah fired rockets against Israeli. People on both sides (IMHO) are now guilty of collective punishment, which is a war crime.
    As to the topic this all started with, disproportionalism, I think this is a plaintive cry from powerless people to limit the deaths of the innocents.
    Oh, and I will agree that Israel has the right to defend itself. Lebanon has this right as well. Israel (before the raid that “started this”) continuously violated Lebanon territory (on land and in their airspace).

  • Greg

    Wow, that was entertaining. Penny and Eileen…I don’t know who I’m smitten with more. If you’re in the Silicon Valley…let’s do lunch.

    Always good to hear facts and reality wrec havoc with liberal apologist pablum. The underlying premises of “America is always wrong”, “They hate us because of what we’ve done”, and “I’m more afraid of my government than psychotic terrorists” that support these failed arguments make me sick.

    Greg

  • Pingback: BuzzMachine » Blog Archive » Five years on: Tragic proportions