BuzzMachine

I’m with you Gene. This is ridiculous. Jeff, get a grip. You’re running what might be the best discussion about this on the web, but you’re starting to get shrill.

You know, I think one of the reasons we don’t have time for little cosmetic gestures like flag lowering is because there is a mess to clean up, people to resettle, a city to drain, buildings to rebuild, and bodies to find, identify, and bury in our own country this time.

We’re busy, Jeff.

Yes, that’s just what President Bush should do right now … issue meaningless proclamations while the dead are still floating in New Orleans.

That way, the New York Times can criticize him for issuing meaningless proclamations while the city is still underwater.

Not many of your commenters have had much to say in agreement with about the last 20 posts you’ve made.

Perhaps you are stubbornly clinging to a position that cannot be defended any other way except for meaningless criticisms? Or perhaps, you are just being intentionally provocative.

I’d encourage you to take a day off from blogging to clear your head.

In a nutshell kind of article:
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8693

Jeff,

A few facts for you:

15% of New Orleans police officers have just abandoned their posts, according to the New York Times.

I’ve seen video of where they went – some of them went to Wal Mart to participate in the looting.

Mary Landrieu, sister of Lt. Governor Mitch Landrieu, and a United States Senator, today on ABC News’ This Week … threatened the President of the United States.

“”If one person criticizes [our sheriffs], or says one more thing, including the president of the United States, he will hear from me – one more word about it after this show airs and I – I might likely have to punch him – literally.”

THIS IS THE LEADERSHIP for the State of Louisiana.

A whiny, incompetent Democrat Mayor.

A sanctimonious, inept Democrat Governor who refused to authorize the federal government to take over relief efforts.

An unhinged United States Senator, sister of a ghost.

Have you heard from the Lt. Governor of Louisiana on CNN?

He’s a ghost. Nowhere to be found.

His sister, though, a United States Senator, goes on the airwaves to physically threaten the President.

I hope the Secret Service has her in chains by now.

And you want Bush to issue flag-lowering proclamations?

Mourn later. Send money to the Red Cross now.

Robert, nice deflection. You want to find out what happened, demand accountability. If not STFU.

Oh, now we are telling people to STFU? Thanks for proving my point.

OK, Robert, way to go with your moral indignation. Tell me, how long did it take to reconvene Congress for Terri Schiavo versus now?

I started with the question and the quote.

I completely agree that there are much more important things right now to worry about than how high the flag is, proclomations, etc. Go save some people.

Let me offer up two things. On the small, nitpicky side, It only took 1 day for a proclomation after 9/11. Things were much more chaotic at that point. Look close. They even took the extra time to amend the proclomation to extend the period from the 16th of September to the 22nd of September back on 2001.

Infinately more important, however, is what lowering of the flag is all about. It’s about respect. “By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory.” Right, it doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t save lives. It doesn’t help the effort to rebuild. It doesn’t raise money. It’s a small, tiny gesture made by the federal government to show respect. They did it the day after 9/11. They did it six days after the tsunami. They haven’t done it yet regarding Katrina.

Ron,

The initial decision to remove the feeding tube was made in May, 1998, timeline
here. Congress was in session up until March 18, 2005 and was going to take a 17 day recess starting the following Monday. The bill was passed on Saturday, March 19. The two cases have nothing in common. BTW, you could inform yourself on these matters. Your offhand ignorant comments are just a smokescreen hiding an evident disinclination to actually know anything.

Jeff’s point, however cosmetic, gets to the heart of the overall tardy response the feds have had to this. How many “Sorry I’m late” responses will there be before the president figures it out? It takes 1 minute to make such a proclamation and have those in Washington make it happen. Symbolic, yes, but it will be balanced against other disasters and leave people wondering why this doesn’t rate the same response.

I voted twice for Bush, supported (and support) the war, think that Rumsfeld and Rove should not have resigned, but I’m pretty disgusted with the response from Bush’s administration. Mike Brown (head of FEMA) ought to be fired, or pushed deep into the background.

I don’t think Jeff’s point is overreactive. As a guy who volunteered in Bush’s re-election campaign, I share his reaction.

They weren’t late. Life isn’t like tv. The local and state government of Louisiana failed. The powers of the fed to make the country’s boo-boos better is limited — that’s why the states and municipalities are supposed to do their part. Mississippi’s and Alabama’s did — Louisiana’s didn’t. Maybe it wasn’t entirely the mayor’s and the governor’s fault — the problems in that state go back far into the past, and are more than one administration can fix.

Look. I’ve been through three hurricanes in the past year. I’ve been through Andrew. There is no easy fix. People will not get all better right away. People in government — even Bush — are only human, and can only do so much. Your complaints — and with all due respect, Mr. Pederson, your nitpicking over tiny details of etiquette — are not constructive.

All I can do is repeat what I just said in another thread: if I were one of the survivors in the midst of still trying to survive, I think I might actually be disheartened by an early lowering of the flags. You do that when the death total is tallied, not before. This isn’t even a matter of there being more important concerns: it’s the wrong freaking time!

The criticism here, like much of the political backbiting, is way out of line. There will be plenty of time to grieve later.

Excellent point Carson.

Right now the loss of life from Katrina is undetermined, although any loss is still too many. The tsunami, even after a few hours, was determined to be in the tens of thousands (and ultimately much more.) 9/11 stands on its own merits.

There was no advance notice for either the tsunami nor 9/11. We knew this was coming. There is plenty of blame to go around but it starts with the local and state governments. If there is fault to be laid with the the feds, it should start with their reluctance to take over from local government earlier.

National Response Plan

The National Response Plan is an all-discipline, all-hazards plan that establishes a single, comprehensive framework for the management of domestic incidents. It provides the structure and mechanisms for the coordination of Federal support to State, local, and tribal incident managers and for exercising direct Federal authorities and responsibilities. The NRP assists in the important homeland security mission of preventing terrorist attacks within the United States; reducing the vulnerability to all natural and man-made hazards; and minimizing the damage and assisting in the recovery from any type of incident that occurs.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=14

The devil is always in the details Ron.

Bush continues to show that he is totally out of touch with America. He fiddled and people died (and continue to die).

Jeez, Rob, can you stop fiddling for a bit.

‘THIS IS THE LEADERSHIP for the State of Louisiana.
A whiny, incompetent Democrat Mayor.
A sanctimonious, inept Democrat Governor who refused to authorize the federal government to take over relief efforts.
An unhinged United States Senator, sister of a ghost.’

Now this is deep, Rightnumberone. You’re mocking Nagin, Blanco and Landrieu for showing their strained nerves in public after they have been deserted by the federal authorities. Of course, you forget to mention that FEMA failed to fulfill it’s duty, creating the situation you are now joking about. Btw, you forget to mention several other officials who were critizising the efforts of the feds. In your opinion, all officials in charge in Louisisana failed but FEMA didn’t do anything wrong?
I guess the public has another perception.
To say it with the words of Kecin Drum:
‘I don’t have much doubt that there’s plenty of blame to go around on the subject of Hurricane Katrina, but the plain truth is that a disaster like this will always overwhelm state and local authorities no matter what. That’s why we have FEMA.’

And still nobody here answered one of the main questions: Bush, Brown and Chertoff told the media that ‘nobody anticipated the breach of the levees’.
If this statement is correct, how can you blame Nagin and Blanco?
If this is wrong, do you think Bush, Brown and Chertoff lied?

It is so obvious from the posts here and from the excuses and finger pointing by the Bush administration toward everyone but themselves that desperation has set in among those higher ups who must know but deny that the buck stops with them. And all this before even the body bags have arrived at the makeshift mourges which will total in the high thousands.

Lack of leadership at the highest levels spells incompetence and no number of clever excuses will erase that fact.

George Will, a conservative Republican said today on ABC ” ThisWeek” that this could be Gerorge W Bush’s Iran Countra. Reagan had his Iran Contra which showed a lack of hands on leadership.

Same goes for Bush in this fuck up.

‘George Will, a conservative Republican said today on ABC ” ThisWeek” that this could be Gerorge W Bush’s Iran Countra.’
100% ack, Chancy.
While this utter failure of FEMA is to be blamed on Michael Brown and Michael Chertoff in the first place, it was GWB who appointed them and who crippled FEMA with a failed reform. The buck stops at the White House.

Ron,

I can’t wait to have this debate with you.

Here is the official Hurricane Evacuation Plan for New Orelans:

“Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor. By Executive Order, the chief elected official, the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, has the authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.

Evacuation procedures for special needs persons with either physical or mental handicaps, including registration of disabled persons, is covered in the SOP for Evacuation of Special Needs Persons.”

Ray Nagin and the rest of the corrupt Democratic Party in New Orleans and in Louisiana have no political future.

You can try to pull the wool over the people of Louisiana’s eyes, but they are smarter than you blue staters.

They know who their leaders are. They’ve watched with disgust as they’ve gotten on television to bitch and whine about how nobody will come do their jobs for them.

These people will soon be relieved of their frustrations – the people of Louisiana are going to have them prosecuted.

Here’s the crux of the problem from Sunday’s Washington Post. Considering how much trouble the federal officials are having five days after the hurricane taking over control of operations normally delegated to state and local officials, just imagine what the outcry would have been if the Bush Administration had tried to do this pro-actively, while Kartina was still in the Gulf and the effects of the failure to act were still unknown:

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state’s emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. “Quite frankly, if they’d been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals,” said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

“The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana,” White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. “The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana.”

Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state’s victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort.

Bush, who has been criticized, even by supporters, for the delayed response to the disaster, used his weekly radio address to put responsibility for the failure on lower levels of government. The magnitude of the crisis “has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities,” he said. “The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need, especially in New Orleans. And that is unacceptable.”

In a Washington briefing, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said one reason federal assets were not used more quickly was “because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor.”

Chertoff planned to fly overnight to the New Orleans area to take charge of deploying the expanded federal and military assets for several days, he said. He said he has “full confidence” in FEMA Director Michael D. Brown, the DHS undersecretary and federal officer in charge of the Katrina response.

Brown, a frequent target of New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin’s wrath, said Saturday that “the mayor can order an evacuation and try to evacuate the city, but if the mayor does not have the resources to get the poor, elderly, the disabled, those who cannot, out, or if he does not even have police capacity to enforce the mandatory evacuation, to make people leave, then you end up with the kind of situation we have right now in New Orleans.”

New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas acknowledged that the city was surprised by the number of refugees left behind, but he said FEMA should have been prepared to assist.

There’s stuff for everyone here, and FEMA certainly is at fault for relaxing Monday night, after the storm had passed but before the levees began to collapse. But attacking the feds for not taking over the situation on Aug. 28, when the governor still doesn’t want to give them control on Sept. 4, is really 20-20 hindsight at its worst.

John,

The people here blaming FEMA, an organization which RESPONDS to the aftermath of natural disasters such as this hurricane, are unmoved by mere facts.

The fact that the city has an evacuation plan that was ignored and that city and state officials refused to allow the federal government to do the job they were criminally negligent in failing to do, is of no concern to them.

They have one goal: to somehow blame the federal government.

Appeals to the facts are wasted on them.

RightNumberOne:
“Ron,

There is a flood. And nobody here denies it.”

Except the Bush Administration for 2 1/2 days of his precious vacation.

“There are also 250 school buses sitting in a city-owned parking lot in the middle of that flood.
Do you know why those buses are sitting there? Because Ray Nagin didn’t do his job … that’s why. Because Ray Nagin didn’t use those buses to evacuate the citizens of his city.”

Gee, the drivers, having been employed, and therfore, with the means of evacuation, nust have, uh, evacuated.

“Ray Nagin’s job was to evacuate the poor, homeless and less fortuante from the city of New Orleans … not to send them to a Superdome he knew well ahead of time wasn’t prepared to house them.

He did the same thing in Hurrican Ivan last year.

The city’s Hurricane Disaster Plan makes it quite clear that the Mayor of New Orleans is responsible for the thousands of deaths we will see as soon as they pump out all of that water. It is he who was supposed to evacuate the downtrodden – the poorest of his city.”

“If he has any decency … he will slink away from New Orleans while the cameras are pointed elsewhere and never return.”

He was publicly begging for help on Tuesday (before the “anarchy” started). Where was Bush, Chertoff, Brown, Rice, Cheney, 1/3 of the National guard and 1/2 of it’s equipment? Strumin’ a guitar? Golfing? Talking to a crowd of syncophants? Buying $3000 shoes? He did far better than the administration, when it is documented on the WH website that the WH had taken the primary respnsibility for New Orleans safety on the Saturday before.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

Saturday evening and Sunday would have been the day the Bush flew back to DC and rounded up his HS and FEMA personnel and co-ordinated with what was left of the LNG and initiated a military style evacuation with bullhorns in the streets. A mayor cannot organize at that level with local law enforcement. I would speculate the mayor and others thought of the school buses, but reverted to the Dome under the assumtion that it would be quicker and FEMA, NG, Chertoff, Brown and President would be there the next day.

“Blame is going to be placed. And it’s going to be placed clearly where it lies – with Ray Nagin and Kathern Blanco and the rest of the corrupt Democratic Party of Louisiana.”

Think again. Read the documents. Blame will fall on local officials only because the selfish and greedy are in control.

“One day soon, there will be a detailed accounting of where all the levee money went. As a lifelong resident of the state of Louisiana, I have no doubt what it will show.”

It went to Iraq and Halliburton, numnut. Read the documents that are widely available.

“The only thing left to debate will be the length of the prison sentences handed out for those who so grossly and negligently failed their poorest and neediest citizens. ”

Amen to that, brother!

I will Agree that worrying about Flag half staffing is a little beside the point right now. Perhaps in a few months. A week of rememberance. Wait until we know how many thousands have died.

Wow BC,

You proved my point. Ray Nagin was publically begging for help on Tuesday when he should have evacuated the poor, infirm black people of New Orleans on his 255 buses last Thursday … you know, before the Hurricane hit.

After all, the New Orleans Hurricane Evacuation Plan gives him the authority, and the obilgation, to do just that.

My problem with Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco is that on Tuesday, they were both publically begging for help; and that the previous Tuesday, they should have been doing their jobs.

If Ray Nagin had done his job, I’d be saluting him today for saving all those lives.

Instead, he’s responsible for all those dead. Hopefully, he will soon be relieved of his need to publically beg for someone else to do his job.

Hopefully, he’ll soon be in prison for negligent homicide.

So you think Bush and FEMA’s 2 1/2 day delay, for the sake of Vaca, Guitar Shoes, Etc. is perfectly OK? You didn’t address a single one of these points. Defend your boy in the Whitehouse. C’mom….

“Gee, the drivers, having been employed, and therfore, with the means of evacuation, nust have, uh, evacuated.”

If the drivers evacuated, then nobody told them they were essential personnel. So either there wasn’t a plan, or the plan wasn’t executed, right?

On Fark a correspondent from N.O. noted that the pumps in certain neighborhoods were not operating on day one. It’s not that these particular pumps were broken, but these were pumps that had to be manned, and the operators evacuated.

If the pump operates evacuated, then certainly nobody told them they were essential personnel. If the pumps had to run without operators, they should have had the controls to do that.

It really starts to sound like there wasn’t a plan.

Gray,

Nobody is saying that Ray Nagin should have brandished a gun and ordered everybody to leave town. That’s not what the evacuation plan says that he should do.

It says that when he orders a mandatory evacuation, he must consider that many people in his state lack the means or the ability to mandatorily evacuate.

The plan predicts this. The plan accounts for it and expects it.

The plan says that he should commandeer all the city buses and school buses and provide these as a means of allowing those people to obey the mandatory evacuation order.

You know, just in case the levee’s, which were designed to withstand the force of a Category 3 hurricane, don’t hold up to a Category 4 or 5 hurricane.

It’s all there in the city’s Hurricane Evacuation Plan.

Nagin was urged to use the buses.

He refused to.

FYI: Here is the link to the city’s Hurricane Emergency Preparedness Plan.

Ironically, it’s still up on the web should Ray Nagin ever care to read it:

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

BC,

The problem you are having is that you are concerned about the federal RESPONSE to this disaster.

That’s the problem with most liberals. All they can seem to do is bitch about the quality of the work everyone else is doing.

The federal government had no power to order an evacuation of New Orleans; but Ray Nagin did have that power. And he exercised it. He ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city (at the urging of President Bush).

He then left the defenseless poor and infirm black people of his city to drown. He rode out the storm in Baton Rouge.

I think having 40,000 troops in New Orleans 2 1/2 days later is a pretty good response to the ineptitude of Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco, and the New Orleans police department, whose officers were too busy participating in looting the Wal Mart to actually, you know, save people.

Nagin and especially Blanco did everything in their power to STOP the federal government from taking over (as the Washington Post reported above).

And because of that, thousands of people are dead.

Switch off the TV and get some medical help, Doug.

I read the NO emergency plan at http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

The word Flood apears twice. In regard to participation in the Flood Insurance Program. The Emergency Planning does not allow for Levy break and flooding. Everyone forsaw the breaking of the Levy in this type of storm. Nobody, locally planned for it because nobody locally could have physically initiated the plan! Thus it becomes A Federal responsibility! Where were the for 2 1/2 days?

And on your other point:

255 school buses each carrying 50 people can get to the Cajun Dome in Lafayette in 2 hours. (Of course, Ray had many, many more buses at his disposal. This number is parked in ONE LOT.)

Using just these school buses, one can empty the city of 200,000 people in 26 hours; if that is your goal, without even comandeering the 300 municipal buses that are now also in the flood.

Oh, I see BC

So, because you see the word flood only twice, then this plan could not have possibly been useful.

It is a Hurricane Evacuation Plan … the official plan for the city of New Orleans.

Ray Nagin didn’t order a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans because there was a flood, but he knew one was coming.

He’s quoted in this CNN article saying so:

“NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) — New Orleans braced for a catastrophic blow from Hurricane Katrina overnight, as forecasters predicted the Category 5 storm could drive a wall of water over the city’s levees.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor’s announcement)

“This is a threat that we’ve never faced before,” Nagin said. “If we galvanize and gather around each other, I’m sure we will get through this.”

Gathering around each other was exactly the WRONG THING. The Hurricane Plan doesn’t say “let’s everyone gather around each other and hug and then everything will be better.”

It says to evacuate the city.

‘He then left the defenseless poor and infirm black people of his city to drown. He rode out the storm in Baton Rouge.’

Rightnumberone, that’s not correct. Many of those people were gathering in one of the hurricane shelters. Afaik, of the NO citizen nobody did drown until after monday. Even then, there could have been a happy end when all the available resources had been used to prevent the flooding. When the promised federal help in repairing the breeches didn’t materialize, Nagin ordered all citizen to leave immediately because a flooding was inevitable. Again, he received no federal support, a clear violation of the defined duties of FEMA. Of course, if the busdrivers would have been available, the 250 busses would have been helpful. This was a serious mistake of Nagin, but it’s also true that he was left alone by FEMA, as became clear in his TV beggings. One way or the other, the city busses wouldn’t have been sufficient to transport all maybe 100000 people who were in harm’s way. This desaster was too huge for city and state resources, federal support was indispensable, but the cavalry arrived too late.

Gray,

Your facts are incorrect.

Ray Nagin knew a flood was coming. See the CNN story where he’s quoted saying so.

Once the levee was breached, there was no stopping the flood. Lake Pontchartrain is the largest salt-water lake in the world. No human effort could have prevented the flood once the levee system failed.

And it failed in exactly the way that it was predicted to fail many, many years ago. Everyone in Louisiana knew it WOULD fail. It was DESIGNED to fail if a Category 4 hurricane hit.

The levee system was designed to contain the storm surge of a Category 3 hurricane. Everyone who has ever lived in Louisiana knows this. Ray Nagin knew it, and that’s why he ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city.

Rather than bus out the old, infirm and poor residents … he told them to go to the Superdome, knowing full well there was no food there, no water there, no electricity there and no help there.

He’s artfully crying to the cameras now to deflect his criminal negligence.

‘Ray Nagin knew a flood was coming. See the CNN story where he’s quoted saying so.’
Read your ‘evidence’ again. He was taking into account that the hurricanes waves would top the levees, not breach them. Th topping would have flooded the area for quite less than one story, and the pumps would have handled that in relatively short time. The breach did open the city to the waters of lake pontchartrain, leaving the pumps worthless, which was the deadly blow to the city. And remember: Bush, Brown and Chertoff said that nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees.

“Using just these school buses, one can empty the city of 200,000 people in 26 hours; if that is your goal, without even comandeering the 300 municipal buses that are now also in the flood.”

All the other evacuees would, of course, clear the roads for the 13 cycles required. That would Require a then no-show, severly-reduced-anyway NG, wouldn’t it.

“I think having 40,000 troops in New Orleans 2 1/2 days later is a pretty good response”

That’s an outright lie. National guard was mobilized from other states on that day because FEMA had just woken up. How could there be 40000 in NO on Thursday? There were less than 3000 NG there on Thursday. Are you kidding? FEMA should have mobilized them, at least, by Sunday-before-the-storm. I knew the the flooding and loss of life was going to be enormous Sunday morning, when I saw the Radar and read back issues of the Times Picaune about the FEDERAL levy and pumping projects funding being cut in half by a REPUBLICAN congress to help pay for a Shia governemnt in Iraq. I could run Fema fer gosh sakes! My god the Administration appoligists are thicker than I ever imagined!

‘And it failed in exactly the way that it was predicted to fail many, many years ago. Everyone in Louisiana knew it WOULD fail. It was DESIGNED to fail if a Category 4 hurricane hit.’

Sry, nonsense. Nobody knew it would fail, some experts warned of a possible danger. That’s no certainty. The levees were designed to withstand a lvl 3 hurrivane. This is not logically equivalent to the statement that they were designed to fail lvl 4. They could have resisted lvl 4, but it was not in their specs. In fact, most of them stood up to the waves, except the vulnerable draining chanels. Even they could have held if the feds wouldn’t have slashed the necessary funds for maintenance.
And, what are you talkin about, Bush, Brown and Chertoff said that nobody did anticipate a BREACHING of the levees. You wanna call them liars?

Someone emailed me with the suggestion to use Governor’s Island in New York Harbor. This is an excellent idea!

I think it is a terrible idea. The residents won’t be going back soon and the last thing we need is a refugee camp. Much better for folks to scatter across nearby states where they can find jobs, the kids can go to school, and the medical facilities are already in place. And that is what is happening.

How to deal with the criminal element who made up far too much of the city is a trickier question. Does anyone want them?

Rightnumberone, dunno what’s so ‘bombastic’ about my comments, I just try to give the facts.
I check google news search regularly. I found no warnings for NO for the 26., and even at friday 27., it wasn’t certain that Katrina would hit NO and it was still a cat 4 hurricane then. Nevertheless, Blanco declared state emergency ‘just in case’:
http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125123931221200.xml
Again, if you have other infos, pls post a link.

Ok. Links you want, links you got:

Forecasters: Katrina to aim for Mississippi, Louisiana
Deadly hurricane could hit again Monday as a Category 4

Saturday, August 27, 2005 Posted: 0200 GMT (1000 HKT)

HOLLYWOOD, Florida (CNN) — Hurricane Katrina will make a “big shift” to the west on its way across the Gulf of Mexico and is expected to reach dangerous Category 4 intensity before making landfall Monday afternoon in Mississippi or Louisiana, the National Hurricane Center said Friday.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/26/tropical.weather/

So, Ray Nagin was warned by the National Hurricane Center as early as August 27, 2005 that a Category 4 hurricane was about to hit his city.

Gray,

Yup, that’s typical of the republicans

Boy, they are really, really clever too. Always have that great comeback. Try “bounces off me, sticks to you” instead. It sounds better and will elevate your apparent age to something more respectable.

‘Saturday, August 27, 2005 Posted: 0200 GMT (1000 HKT)’
You must be joking. Scroll up, you said thursday. Blanco declared state of emergency on freiday, for god’s sake. Can’t you simply admit you made an error?

Gray, wasn’t it a cat THREE on a projected path which included NO on Thursday?

‘Does anyone here believe that shifts in resources/attention to Biloxi and etc. didn’t take place on Monday?’

Eileen, I believe in many things. For instance, I believe that in a discussion like this, you better cling to the facts, or else soon somebody will declare that some al quaida terrorist blew up that canal in NO.

There are a bunch of Bush apologists posting here. The non response to this catastrophic disaster is non partisan. The American people see it loudly and clearly. The President and FEMA dithered about while people died. It’s that simple.

There are a certain amount of people on both sides who will defend their side no matter what the facts are.

All this Monday morning quarterbacking is pathetic. There is more than enough blame to go around. This was a “Perfect Storm” not only for Katrina but also for the attitude of local, state, and federal politicians and administrators who thought “keeping their fingers crossed” was a form of disaster planning. They KNEW this might happen and did nothing but HOPE that it wouldn’t. Republican or Democrat, all are equally responsible for this. Those of you who use this tragedy to make your point about the other side make me sick.

Joe,

For someone spouting alleged facts, perhaps you should check this ABCNews poll just released.

The American people don’t agree with your assessment.

Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism

http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1

Sorry about that, Greg. I acknowledge I caved. The focus has been all about blame on the news and here as well. I wanted to ask some real questions about FEMA that I am struggling with as well. And I had just read an article dated August 28th in which both Blanco and Nagin appeared to be totally clueless the day before the storm.

Last Sunday when I learned that Nagin was sending people into the heart of the city for shelter in the face of a cat 4/5 in a below sea level city surrounded by levees built for a 3 I was dumbstruck. I didn’t know he was a Democrat and I could have cared less. I thought *then* it was craziness. I’m angry that my own worst nightmare has come true. My comments about him and Blanco were based on that, as that is ‘failure’ I anticipated.

Do we need to improve FEMA, too? I’m sure we do. How?

And Gray, I’m sure you have all the facts, too.

“Ok. Links you want, links you got:

Forecasters: Katrina to aim for Mississippi, Louisiana
Deadly hurricane could hit again Monday as a Category 4

Saturday, August 27, 2005 Posted: 0200 GMT (1000 HKT)”

OK? Everybody New that. Most of us knew it would cause serious flooding (except the federal government). What’s your point?

Now here’s your link:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article310195.ece

I think it’s really hysterical that people are putting the majority of blame on the mayor. Like I said on another thread, Ray Nagin did not have the legal authority to order a mandatory evacuation until Sunday when the city’s lawyers were able to find him a loophole/precedent in the law that said he could. Can someone please tell me how, on Sunday with the hurricane less than 24 hours away, Ray Nagin was supposed to find bus drivers to get the buses and then organize pickups to get 100,000 people out of town? Did Jeb Bush have school buses mobilized last year in Florida? It is complete blind partisanship to say that the bulk of the blame lies with the mayor for the biggest national disaster in the history of this country. Ray Nagin could have done more, but he did what he could–he did what he was authorized to do. And Blanco declared a state of emergency last Saturday. The fact of the matter is, there’s not much more the governor or the mayor could have done within their job descriptions. FEMA, however, did NOTHING right. Did anyone catch Aaron Broussard (President of Jefferson Parish) on Meet the Press this morning? FEMA turned away fuel supplies from the Coast Guard. They turned away water from Wal-Mart. They cut off the local law enforcement’s communications systems. Not only does it seem that they’re inept but they’re actually making things worse. I don’t know about you blind partisans, but it doesn’t make me sleep any better at night knowing that the mayor might have gotten a few school buses on the street before the storm. What makes me scared is that FEMA, the agency that’s supposed to be the federal government’s primary responder in case of a national disaster, is completely and utterly inept.

I understand that, B.C.

If NO had taken the anticipated direct hit, would the dome have even made it? I don’t have information on that, but that also was part of my fear last Sunday.

And how fast is FEMA Ever able to ‘get there’ after a strong storm…part of the questions I raised above…due to the need to protect resources from the storm?

At the very least, shouldn’t there have been adequate food and water for the people being sheltered by the city for several days? Had there been, would we have experienced this degree of horror?

Rightnumberone, most of my posts provide links to the facts. You’ll find a lot by searching buzzmachine. Sry that I couldn’t provide them every time when several people were bashing me at once.
I’m quite exhausted now, but what are you specifically interested in?
And, btw, I’m still waiting for YOU to apologize.
Hurricane warning for NO was friday, not thursday.

Larry Johnson puts to bed any discussion of when the Feds should have acted:

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/09/criminal_neglig.html

Bush can’t shift the blame for this off onto the state and local folks. He is at the eye of this scandalous (some say criminal) hurricane.

So you are claiming that they sat there and did nothing??

Gray,

I see 19 posts and 1 link.

Most of your posts do not, therefore, have links in them. In fact, only one of them does.

Thank you, Eileen. I’m sure we both agree and disagree on many things, and I appreciate your acknowledgement.

From page 43 of the National Response Plan, signed by the President December 2004:

â–  Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude.

(So much for “Blanco sent the form to the wrong office”)

â–  Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.

(Didn’t happen)

â–  Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.

(THE COORDINATION PROCESS MUST NOT DELAY OR IMPEDE THE RAPID DEPLOYMENT AND USE OF CRITICAL RESOURCES. Yes, I’m shouting.)

But as you probably know, FEMA in fact discouraged, failed to accept, or prohibited direct and timely aid for not only New Orleans, but Jefferson Parish. Refusing to allow the Red Cross in with food and water because it would “encourage people to stay” is appalling. If I wanted to be a rabble rouser I’d phrase it as “the FEMA policy on the ground was to starve people out”. Expect to see that, eventually, but not from me. Brown and Chertoff are directly responsible there, but I would much rather believe they’re truly incompetent at their jobs rather than malevolent.

As for what to do about FEMA? It’s a damned good question, but we can’t deal with it in isolation. A budgeting system that allocates $200+ million to a truly non-essential bridge in Alaska but can’t find $40 million for levee repairs is broken. That’s not partisan – the budgeting (and hence prioritizing system) is broken. While FEMA may need direct attention first, the whole system needs reform, badly.

When the time comes for that, I hope people of good will on ALL sides of the political spectrum will be able to come together and decide on a change. It’ll be messy, but it needs doing. I would like to see you involved in that, Eileen. I hope your sister and her family are doing ok, and that you’re holding up.

‘So you are claiming that they sat there and did nothing??’

Yes.
Here’s one eyewitness accout of fed agents poking in their nose and preventing the rescue mission of Lavayete volunteers:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/371

Even worse, FEMA interdicted the transport of supplies for the hurricane victims:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/387

(How FEMA was supposed to get relief to people submerged in 12 feet of water is a mystery I haven’t quite figured out yet.)
I guess you would call the necessary

Greg,

I’m curious if you have an idea many boats it would take to ship in enough supplies to feed and water 150,000 stranded people for 6 days?

Not to mention the additional 500,000 people who are affected by this storm in 3 other states who currently have no food, water or electricity?

Pardon me Greg,

My last post was directed at Harbor Master Gray.

Sorry to double post, but RNO finally showed a bit of humilty while I was typing my last comment.

RNO, the issue is not how many boats would have been necessary. What’s at issue is that the number necessary would be more than effectively 0, which is what FEMA provided. Nagin was bad–FEMA was worse, because relief is their job–it’s their speciality.

I know you guys all get your talking points from a central location, but be careful: it’s apparent to everyone what’s going on here and how you’re trying to deflect the blame from “Horse-Boy” Brown. People are smarter than you give them credit for being.

Ah, lag is fun, isn’t it?

RNO, take a chill pill. Nobody’s trying to silence you. It’s just that this blog seems to be for real discussion. You’ll always have Free Republic.

If you can’t acknowledge that FEMA, Brown, et al were incompetant, in the same way that Nagin was incompetant, then you’re fundamentally intellectually dishonest. That seems to be what you’re doing, and you’re doing it for entirely partisan reasons. That’s really sad.

If you’re out for getting to the truth, then great. But it’s apparent to all concerned that that’s not at all what you’re doing here–you’re out to defect blame from the feds.

According to Rasmussen:

53% of Americans feel that the Federal government’s response to the disaster has been Excellent, Good or Fair.

http://rasmussenreports.com/2005/Katrina.htm

Only 45% think its been poor.

Thanks for helping me make my point Vince.

Even with the entire MSM attempting to make this whole flood George W. Bush’s fault, the American public isn’t falling for it.

That’s inline with the ABCNews Poll which shows similar results This poll showed that 75% of people questioned believe that the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans were not prepared for this storm.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1

Also shows just 44% blaming Bush (which is inline with the 44% of Americans who blame Bush for anything.)

“I think everyone would agree that FEMA could have acted more quickly once New Orleans flooded. ”

They should have moved their apparatus in place on Saturday and Sunday. I knew it would be catistrophic. I’m a little guy with a computer Why didn’t FEMA move then.

“(How FEMA was supposed to get relief to people submerged in 12 feet of water is a mystery I haven’t quite figured out yet.)”

This is the most twisted assenine thing I’ve heard so far! The people who needed relief were high and as dry as could be expected, and ALIVE at the dome and convention centers. Any one under 12 feet of water was dead. You just proved you are unencumbered by the thought process!

“Yet, the plan was not carried out.”

Why don’t you post that plan yet one more time? You know, the one that says nothing about what to do for flooding?

“The city told anyone who couldn’t get out to go to the Superdome, where the city knew there would be no water, electricity, food, adequate safety or a way out.”

Unless the President, on his vacation, had gotten his ass back to DC and mobilized FEMA on Sunday. He could have called Brown Saturday night to save all the Arabian Horses in NO. Nagin would have made a good call, had grownups been in charge of FEMA. I guess that would be to much for him to expect.

“It’s criminal negligence on the part of the Mayor, who holds these responsibilities.”

Criminal negligence is bying $3000 shoes, playing guitar, hiding in Wyoming, eating birthday cake, playing golf and speaking to an audience of hand picked syncophants about something the rest of the country doesn’t want while babies and elderly dehydrate at your feet. When are you going to stop bashing Nagin and answer to the real issues?

Gray,

According to CNN, the estimate of people trapped in the Superdome was 30,000.

They evacuated 1,000 from a single hospital in New Orleans.

I am looking for better estimates.

Meantime, how many boats do you think it would take to haul in enough supplies to feed, water, clothe, provide medicine or otherwise take care of 30,000 people for 6 days?

Your original point was that FEMA should have just went in there with some boats. Right?

All right–for those keeping track at home, this is what we call intellectual dishonesty.

1) Rasmussen follows conventional polling guideles–good/excellent = positive; fair/poor = negative. So, the lede from Rasmussen goes: “Just 28% of Americans give say that the federal government has done a good or an excellent job responding to Hurricane Katrina. Another 25% say the government has done a fair job while 45% say poor.” But, suddenly “fair” is an indication of success–at least according to RNO.

2) On the ABC poll, the 67% said the feds weren’t adequately prepared, which is in the general ballpark of the 75% that blame LA and NO. (25+45 = 70, which is very close to the 70%. Not a coincidence.) So, there’s a fair number of people that aren’t blaming Bush, but ARE blaming poor response of FEMA and the feds. That’s what we call the emerging concensus, kids, and it sounds about right to me.

RNO, do you really think that we don’t read these links? Thanks for proving my point about YOUR intellectual dishonesty, RNO.

As I alluded to before–if I had a blog, I wouldn’t have comments on it. I would force the intellectually dishonest to post on their own board somewhere.

Yahoo news and several other sources said 100000 trapped in NO:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050829/ap_on_re_us/katrina_superdome

Gray,

So, how many boats you think it would take to haul in enough food, water, medicine and clothing to take care of 100,000 people for 6 days?

BTW Gray,

A quote you missed in the Yahoo story was by the manager of the Superdome:

“We can make things very nice for 75,000 people for four hours. But we aren’t set up to really accommodate 8,000 for four days.”

Much less 30,000.

RNO: “I also said 75% of people believe that the state and local governments were unprepared (but you said nothing about that poll result).”

VinceGlorthau: “On the ABC poll, the 67% said the feds weren’t adequately prepared, which is in the general ballpark of the 75% that blame LA and NO.”

RNO, either, you didn’t read my post, or you’re just a liar.

Sorry to have to just come out and say it. But it’s in black and white in my comment above.

Don’t worry, Gray. It’s not just you. RNO isn’t reading my posts honestly either.

RNO, YOU ARE THE ONE who posted the long excerpt from Gray. You left out the most relevant part of it. If you don’t consider that authoritative (because I don’t know who these guys are), then find your own source. But to post a misleading excerpt and accuse Gray of not reading the linkage–that’s just wrong.

And that’s why Democrats aren’t going to run things anymore.

“I wondered how many posts it would take before you started name calling.”

“RNO, either, you didn’t read my post, or you’re just a liar.”

Actually, you’re still waiting. I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, if you read and understood my post as quoted, and you posted what you posted, then you were lying.

So, which is it?

Gray,

I like how you change the subject when it’s not to your liking.

I said: “How FEMA was supposed to get relief to people submerged in 12 feet of water is a mystery I haven’t quite figured out yet.)

Your response was to question the number of people needing assistance.

Your next response was to say that FEMA should have used boats.

Now you’re saying FEMA didn’t need boats.

Enough with the boats.

The City of New Orleans has pumping stations which are supposed to pump water out of them. The Mayor, since he is the CEO of the city, was charged with making sure those pumps worked.

None of them are working.

Is that Bush’s fault too?

Gray Sez:

“Brown badly s***ed up.”

The point here is….. Anybody up for more rubberstamped Bush appointments?

“And that’s why Democrats aren’t going to run things anymore. ”

They haven’t run things for 5 years! You Like?

Fed Response to Katrina Gets Thumbs Down
Survey of 1,000 Adults

September 2-3, 2005

Federal Response to

Hurricane Katrina

Excellent 12%
Good 16%
Fair 25%
Poor 45%
RasmussenReports.com

from the Rasmussen Reports poll

I don’t know where RNO gets the bogus numbers

Hmmm:

25+16+12 = 53% say fed response has been Excellent, Good or Fair

45% say poor.

Those aren’t bogus.

I can just do math.

Which, apparently you can’t.

It’s called grading on a curve, or a gentleman’s C.

Getting Cs at Yale means you can graduate and one day be president.

Getting Cs at FEMA means more people die than necessary.

Like I said above, the emerging polling consensus seems to be pretty harsh on the locals and the feds, and rightfully so.

RNO, I don’t care whether anyone gets some message. They can make up their own mind.

And when ABC finds that 67% thinks that the feds weren’t properly prepared, then that’s sad. And it’s clear that people are rightfully upset.

We should expect better out of all the authorities. Louisianans can run their own elections–the feds affect all of us, and their lack of preparation is scary.

The emerging polling consensus seems to be that a majority of the public believes that the federal government is doing an excellent, good, or fair job handling this crisis.

75% believe that the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans were not prepared.

That’s pretty overwhelming support.

Vince,

I’m curious. What would you have had the federal government do to better prepare for the flood in New Orleans?

That’s easy. Bush should have left James Lee Witt at the helm. He has the experience, he would have handled the details.

BC, isn’t the essesnce of what you’re saying: ‘Blanco and Nagin s****ed up’?
How’s that for rubberstamping?

Jersey,

Your quote doesn’t tell me where the resources were stored (presumably someplace outside the projected path). We don’t have much information yet about the degree of debris removal involved, etc., that had to be accomplished between points A and B, etc. [At least I don't.] We know at least portions of the airport weren’t accessible for some time. What was the extent of the damage there? What other specific logistical issues had to be overcome? There are a lot of missing facts at this point.

Greg,

“But as you probably know, FEMA in fact discouraged, failed to accept, or prohibited direct and timely aid for not only New Orleans, but Jefferson Parish. Refusing to allow the Red Cross in with food and water because it would “encourage people to stay” is appalling.” Do you have citations? Apparently – ahem – there are some questionable reports flying around.

Thanks for your kind words. My sister and family are well.

Neo-con world:
Excellent 12%
Good 16%
Fair 25%
Poor 45%

Real world (the world good people imagine and hope for and understand could be):
Excellent 99%
Good .03%
Fair .06%
Poor .01%

Bushes grades at yale:
Excellent 12%
Good 16%
Fair 25%
Poor 45%

RNC I love your Intelligent-Design-point-of-view regarding math an science.

Rasmussen’s poll does not address the question of “preparedness.”

At least the version that I have does not. If you have another link, I’d be interested in seeing it.

Here’s one for you guys to chew on:

The state of Louisiana limits the amount of taxation that a levy board may impose upon its citizens to 5 mils.

That’s not a law.

It’s written into the Louisiana Constitution.

http://senate.legis.state.la.us/Documents/Constitution/Article6.htm#§38.  Levee%20Districts

The state of Louisiana deliberately keeps levee districts from being able to raise enough money to keep the levees up.

Marvelous.

“The state of Louisiana deliberately keeps levee districts from being able to raise enough money to keep the levees up.”

So, you’re a republican, right? Do I understand you to be advocating higher taxes? I’m going to report you to the Club for Growth. :)

Vince,

I think we finally agree. Bad news for anyone in charge, whether they are really to blame or not. That just human nature.

I don’t particularly favor higher taxes, but I’m definitely not in favor of having elements of public safety (levees, nuclear reactor safety, police, etc.) hobbled by lack of adequate resources via state Constitutions.

Essentially, what the state of Louisiana is doing is deliberately underfunding levee districts so that the federal government will have to pick up the tab through the Corps of Engineers. The vast majority of the state levee budgets go to pay the salaries of those members of the levee boards and their brother-in-laws and top pay for the 4-wheel drive vehicles they use to perform once-a-month “inspections” of the levee system.

It’s the Corps that does the yeoman’s work of keeping the Port of New Orleans open and the Mississippi River navigable.

Damn shame that the levee that broke was the one they spent the most money on and had the latest improvements (such as a cement cap).

Incidently Vince,

No less authority than your New York Times earlier this year rejected increased funding for the Corps of Engineers (via Powerline):

“Anyone who cares about responsible budgeting and the health of America’s rivers and wetlands should pay attention to a bill now before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The bill would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and other water-related projects — this at a time when President Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences.
The Government Accountability Office and other watchdogs accuse the corps of routinely inflating the economic benefits of its projects. And environmentalists blame it for turning free-flowing rivers into lifeless canals and destroying millions of acres of wetlands — usually in the name of flood control and navigation but mostly to satisfy Congress’s appetite for pork.

This is a bad piece of legislation,” The Times opined.

Great timing there, huh?

So, now, we have a republican advocating higher taxes and more pork.

This thing is getting weirder all the time. :)

VinceGlorthau: “So, now, we have a republican advocating higher taxes and more pork.

This thing is getting weirder all the time”

Someday they will join the majority in this country in advocating fair taxes and wise spending. And I am not talking about libruls or Neo-cons and demofats or repugnicans. I am talking about *real* American and human ideals.

I’m willing to accept that the mayor and governor may be partially responsible – any of you cheerleaders ready to do the same for your boys our are you 100% sure that your party covered all the bases, and everyone else (especially the democrats) are solely responsible?

With New Orleans and the Gulf States in ruins, now is not the time for purely symbolic acts, especially not cynical ones.

That’s why President Bush and the Pentagon should cancel the so-called Freedom Walk scheduled for Sunday, September 11.

For the full story, see:

“Cancel the 9/11 Freedom Walk.”

Greg,

I’m very unclear on if that was the state or the Feds

It’s the state, idiot. It’s under the Louisiana Military Department. This isn’t a great mystery, it takes about 30 seconds to find that out. I figure the rest of your post is probably equally worthless, but I don’t think it’s worth my time to find out.

Greg,

Please forgive my delay in responding and I appreciate the time you took to compile some sources. I don’t have the time to thoroughly read and dissect and search and respond to each of your citations at this point. I think if I were to do so, I’d probably still have some questions regarding these stories. How much is tainted by spin or motivated by self preservation? If true, what was the rationale for these *purported* responses by FEMA? At the very least, I do not believe they were malevolent. And there’s a whole lot more to learn regarding how good a job FEMA’s done in the face of ALL facts and the realities of this catstrophe. Add in the impact of state/local actions and lack thereof..

I’m trying to keep abreast as much as possible in the midst of ‘life’. To be continued, I’m sure.

right#1,

It won’t take me long to call you a name; I’ll do it right off the bat: you are an asshole.

Let’s say that you are right about Nagin and Blanco being derelict of duty, which is a lie but let’s assume it for the sake of argument. That does not mitigate one iota the blame of the despicable cheater who works in the Oval Office. Had that piece of shit been monitoring the situation, he would have seen the negligence that you claim took place. Were he a decent human being, he would have then moved heaven and earth to prevent the humanitarian disaster about to ensue. From Nagin and Blanco are blameworthy, it does not follow that your piece of shit president was not.

And keep on gloating about who’s running the country. When America’s working people rise up your ilk will be singing a different tune.

#1,

Go on, hide behind polls, you cowardly motherfucker. Are they the like the ones whose results your kind disparaged after the last presidential “election”?